[Bret L]

I've heard a couple different Orion installations, with very
different amps, in different rooms. They are not exactly my thing, but
they certainly are a remarkable design. They do certain things
extremely well.

The "mainstream" (sic) high end audio industry (sic) likes to pretend
they do not exist.

They are far superior in terms of what they do presentationwise to
many of the popular high end saloon speaker brands. Since they are not
a saloon vendable product and Linkwitz does not buy full page ads in
Stereopile this presents an issue for the high end press.

I don't own an Orion installation, and I have no plans to do so in
the near future. I personally prefer the articulation and delineation
of a god horn setup, and although I readily acknowledge the
superiority of electronic crossovers and multi-amping, I am content so
far with the passive crossover network driven by a halfway decent tube
amplifier. But the Orions and Linkwitz lab certainly have proven to
be a good revelator of high end bull****.

[Boon[_2_]]

On May 12, 7:07�pm, Bret L wrote:
�I've heard a couple different Orion installations, with very
different amps, in different rooms. They are not exactly my thing, but
they certainly are a remarkable design. They do certain things
extremely well.

�The "mainstream" (sic) high end audio industry (sic) likes to pretend
they do not exist.

�They are far superior in terms of what they do presentationwise to
many of the popular high end saloon speaker brands. Since they are not
a saloon vendable product and Linkwitz does not buy full page ads in
Stereopile this presents an issue for the high end press.

�I don't own an Orion installation, and I have no plans to do so in
the near future. I personally prefer the articulation and delineation
of a god horn setup, and although I readily acknowledge the
superiority of electronic crossovers and multi-amping, I am content so
far with the passive crossover network driven by a halfway decent tube
amplifier. �But the Orions and Linkwitz lab certainly have proven to
be a good revelator of high end bull****.

Maybe, maybe not. Linkwitz is a good designer and has a great track
record, but the prices he charges for a finished pair of Orions is
hardly a good value. If Scott was able to build them for next to
nothing, then he could have done a lot worse.

Now Nelson Pass' First Watt "kitchen table" amps are truly interesting
designs that sound great...and he charges fair prices for them. I
reviewed the F3, and it offered all of the sonic benefits of a great
SET amp without the hassles and idiosyncracies. I wouldn't mind owning
one in the near future.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On May 12, 9:46*pm, Boon wrote:
On May 12, 7:07 pm, Bret L wrote:





I've heard a couple different Orion installations, with very
different amps, in different rooms. They are not exactly my thing, but
they certainly are a remarkable design. They do certain things
extremely well.

The "mainstream" (sic) high end audio industry (sic) likes to pretend
they do not exist.

They are far superior in terms of what they do presentationwise to
many of the popular high end saloon speaker brands. Since they are not
a saloon vendable product and Linkwitz does not buy full page ads in
Stereopile this presents an issue for the high end press.

I don't own an Orion installation, and I have no plans to do so in
the near future. I personally prefer the articulation and delineation
of a god horn setup, and although I readily acknowledge the
superiority of electronic crossovers and multi-amping, I am content so
far with the passive crossover network driven by a halfway decent tube
amplifier. But the Orions and Linkwitz lab certainly have proven to
be a good revelator of high end bull****.

Maybe, maybe not. Linkwitz is a good designer and has a great track
record, but the prices he charges for a finished pair of Orions is
hardly a good value. If Scott was able to build them for next to
nothing, then he could have done a lot worse.

Now Nelson Pass' First Watt "kitchen table" amps are truly interesting
designs that sound great...and he charges fair prices for them. I
reviewed the F3, and it offered all of the sonic benefits of a great
SET amp without the hassles and idiosyncracies. I wouldn't mind owning
one in the near future.

Don't argue with Bratzi. The blog he cut-and-pasted that from swore it
was the truth. LoL.

[Bret L]

On May 12, 9:46*pm, Boon wrote:
On May 12, 7:07 pm, Bret L wrote:



I've heard a couple different Orion installations, with very
different amps, in different rooms. They are not exactly my thing, but
they certainly are a remarkable design. They do certain things
extremely well.

The "mainstream" (sic) high end audio industry (sic) likes to pretend
they do not exist.

They are far superior in terms of what they do presentationwise to
many of the popular high end saloon speaker brands. Since they are not
a saloon vendable product and Linkwitz does not buy full page ads in
Stereopile this presents an issue for the high end press.

I don't own an Orion installation, and I have no plans to do so in
the near future. I personally prefer the articulation and delineation
of a god horn setup, and although I readily acknowledge the
superiority of electronic crossovers and multi-amping, I am content so
far with the passive crossover network driven by a halfway decent tube
amplifier. But the Orions and Linkwitz lab certainly have proven to
be a good revelator of high end bull****.

Maybe, maybe not. Linkwitz is a good designer and has a great track
record, but the prices he charges for a finished pair of Orions is
hardly a good value. If Scott was able to build them for next to
nothing, then he could have done a lot worse.

There's no cheap way around it, because the drivers are expensive.
Usually one supplies the amps, the assembly labor _und so weiter_ and
buys the XO kit and flatpack with plans and then the drivers from
Madisound. Linkwitz does not want to manufacture and really no one
buys them complete but rather in the CKD configuration. The link shows
that the minimum feasible cost is going to be about $3000 and that
isn't including wood. The flatpack wood kit is $1310 alone.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_construction.htm

Not that they are the same thing, but finding an old pair of Klassic
Klipsch speakers and fitting them with modern tweeter, midrange horn
and crossover can still be done cheaper than that. People get rid of
cosmetically nice K-horns or La Scalas with blown drivers much cheaper
than you can build the cabs. The only Klipsch driver you want is the
woofer and they are pretty cheap. Of course that doesn't include
amplifiers but with a Klipsch some pretty cheap amps work OK.


Now Nelson Pass' First Watt "kitchen table" amps are truly interesting
designs that sound great...and he charges fair prices for them. I
reviewed the F3, and it offered all of the sonic benefits of a great
SET amp without the hassles and idiosyncracies. I wouldn't mind owning
one in the near future.

I think Nelson Pass is a decent guy (and yes, I know...again
irrelevant) but I am not a huge fan of these minimal designs. I think
his work with Threshold was a lot better.

[John Stone]

On 5/12/10 9:46 PM, in article
, "Boon"
wrote:

Maybe, maybe not. Linkwitz is a good designer and has a great track
record, but the prices he charges for a finished pair of Orions is
hardly a good value. If Scott was able to build them for next to
nothing, then he could have done a lot worse.

I think if you compare them to what is out there from most hi-end speaker
manufacturers, they offer extremely good value. It really depends on who
builds the cabinets and how much of your own effort you put into them.
All the drivers along with completed electronics-including the power
amplifier- can be had for about $4800. You can buy a flat pack cabinet kit
for $700 and build the whole thing up yourself in a couple of days' work.
So, with a little effort, you can get into a complete setup for under $6000.
Compare that to what's available in the general high end speaker market and
I think it's quite a deal-especially considering the performance level and
the fact that the price includes the power amp. They also use the best
SEAS and Peerless drive units available-stuff you usually only find in
20k+/pr commercial products.

As for sound, honestly, most of the opinions I've read posted here and
elsewhere reflect impressions of people who have either heard questionable
setups, or are quite possibly just making **** up. You can't easily audition
these speakers unless there's someone in the area who owns them and they're
willing to give you an audition in their home.

Take if for what it's worth, but I've been in the industry for 40 years and
have heard and owned many high end speakers. I'd be hard pressed to come up
with a speaker that I would prefer over the Orions in my listening room. And
that includes (among others) Maggies, Quads, any B&W, or any Wilson.

"Soupe du jour" ( who strangely just came and went after 1 or 2 posts) made
comments about "congestion" on full orchestral works which I find totally at
odds with my own experience. Given that SL is a major classical music lover
with full season attendance at SFS concerts for many years, and a large
collection of classical recordings, it's hard to believe he would design a
speaker that doesn't sound good on orchestral recordings. As for the bass,
that's the last thing anyone should criticize about these speakers, since
they're truly full range down to the deepest bass. I've measured mine, and
in room they extend well into the low 20Hz range. Boon, if you ever plan to
be in the SF area, look up Linkwitz (he's in Corte Madera just north of the
Golden Gate) and arrange an audition. He's very accommodating and will
explain anything you want to know. He's got them set up exactly right, and
I'd be surprised if you didn't walk away impressed. While you're at it, have
him demo the Pluto's. Those are amazing too.


Now Nelson Pass' First Watt "kitchen table" amps are truly interesting
designs that sound great...and he charges fair prices for them. I
reviewed the F3, and it offered all of the sonic benefits of a great
SET amp without the hassles and idiosyncracies. I wouldn't mind owning
one in the near future.

I use a First Watt Aleph J on my Orion tweeters. My Aleph 0 monoblocks (the
first Pass Labs product) power the mids, and an X250.5 powers the woofers.
So everything from 100Hz up is single ended class A. And the bass amp stays
in class A to over 30 watts. My preamp is a Pass Labs XP20. Nelson will be
soon sending me a new First Watt J2 for evaluation. He claims it's even
better than the original J. Hard to criticize the treble quality now (or
anything else), but maybe this will be an improvement. The Pass products
work great with the Orions, and the combination sounds fantastic. Wayne
Colburn, who designs all the Pass Labs line level products also has a pair
of Orions and thinks very highly of them. That said, SL just uses the MTI
amp, and his system sounds fantastic.

[Boon[_2_]]

On May 13, 11:11*am, John Stone wrote:
On 5/12/10 9:46 PM, in article
, "Boon"

wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. Linkwitz is a good designer and has a great track
record, but the prices he charges for a finished pair of Orions is
hardly a good value. If Scott was able to build them for next to
nothing, then he could have done a lot worse.

I think if you compare them to what is out there from most hi-end speaker
manufacturers, they offer extremely good value. It really depends on who
builds the cabinets and how much of your own effort you put into them.
All the drivers along with completed electronics-including the power
amplifier- can be had for about $4800. You can buy a flat pack cabinet kit
for $700 and build the whole thing up yourself in a couple of days' work.
So, with a little effort, you can get into a complete setup for under $6000.

[Boon[_2_]]

On May 13, 5:12*am, Bret L wrote:
On May 12, 9:46*pm, Boon wrote:





On May 12, 7:07 pm, Bret L wrote:

I've heard a couple different Orion installations, with very
different amps, in different rooms. They are not exactly my thing, but
they certainly are a remarkable design. They do certain things
extremely well.

The "mainstream" (sic) high end audio industry (sic) likes to pretend
they do not exist.

They are far superior in terms of what they do presentationwise to
many of the popular high end saloon speaker brands. Since they are not
a saloon vendable product and Linkwitz does not buy full page ads in
Stereopile this presents an issue for the high end press.

I don't own an Orion installation, and I have no plans to do so in
the near future. I personally prefer the articulation and delineation
of a god horn setup, and although I readily acknowledge the
superiority of electronic crossovers and multi-amping, I am content so
far with the passive crossover network driven by a halfway decent tube
amplifier. But the Orions and Linkwitz lab certainly have proven to
be a good revelator of high end bull****.

Maybe, maybe not. Linkwitz is a good designer and has a great track
record, but the prices he charges for a finished pair of Orions is
hardly a good value. If Scott was able to build them for next to
nothing, then he could have done a lot worse.

*There's no cheap way around it, because the drivers are expensive.
Usually one supplies the amps, the assembly labor _und so weiter_ *and
buys the XO kit and flatpack with plans and then the drivers from
Madisound. Linkwitz does not want to manufacture and really no one
buys them complete but rather in the CKD configuration. The link shows
that the minimum feasible cost is going to be about $3000 and that
isn't including wood. The flatpack wood kit is $1310 alone.

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_construction.htm

*Not that they are the same thing, but finding an old pair of Klassic
Klipsch speakers and fitting them with modern tweeter, midrange horn
and crossover can still be done cheaper than that. People get rid of
cosmetically nice K-horns or La Scalas with blown drivers much cheaper
than you can build the cabs. The only Klipsch driver you want is the
woofer and they are pretty cheap. Of course that doesn't include
amplifiers but with a Klipsch some pretty cheap amps work OK.



Now Nelson Pass' First Watt "kitchen table" amps are truly interesting
designs that sound great...and he charges fair prices for them. I
reviewed the F3, and it offered all of the sonic benefits of a great
SET amp without the hassles and idiosyncracies. I wouldn't mind owning
one in the near future.

*I think Nelson Pass is a decent guy (and yes, I know...again
irrelevant) but I am not a huge fan of these minimal designs. I think
his work with Threshold was a lot better.

Have you HEARD any of the First Watt designs?

[John Stone]

On 5/13/10 5:12 AM, in article
, "Bret L"
wrote:


I think Nelson Pass is a decent guy (and yes, I know...again
irrelevant) but I am not a huge fan of these minimal designs. I think
his work with Threshold was a lot better.

Based on what? The power amps he makes today actually measure much lower
distortion and noise, and can put way more power into low impedance loads
than the older Threshold products. I'm talking about the X series products
in the Pass Labs line, not the First Watt products which are more DIY
oriented. I doubt you have any firsthand experience at all with any current
Pass Labs products. If you actually measured one thoroughly, you would have
to admit they're the real deal in every respect.

[John Stone]

On 5/13/10 11:16 AM, in article
, "Boon"
wrote:

Thanks for all of the information, John!

(And sorry for mixing up your comments with Soup de Jour's.)

No problem. Hard to keep track with everything that's going on here. BTW,
the amp SL recommends and uses is the ATI, not MTI as I had written. That
company now also owns Theta.

[Bret L]

On May 13, 11:17*am, Boon wrote:
On May 13, 5:12*am, Bret L wrote:



Now Nelson Pass' First Watt "kitchen table" amps are truly interesting
designs that sound great...and he charges fair prices for them. I
reviewed the F3, and it offered all of the sonic benefits of a great
SET amp without the hassles and idiosyncracies. I wouldn't mind owning
one in the near future.

*I think Nelson Pass is a decent guy (and yes, I know...again
irrelevant) but I am not a huge fan of these minimal designs. I think
his work with Threshold was a lot better.

Have you HEARD any of the First Watt designs?

The first of them when he came out with the basic concept, yes. I
mean, there was nothing WRONG with it, it worked OK, but it just
sounded like any other decent low powered amp. The Tresholds gave you
enough power for normal speakers though.

Single ended triode amps, if you follow a proven design like the WE
91, are not bad for maintainability at all. That isn't why I basically
don't like them: it's because they have low power and high distortion.
Yes, it's POSSIBLE to build a SET with enough power (if you use a
transmitting tube) and low distortion (you need a big artfully wound
OPT and a reasonable amount of feedback), but why bother?

[Boon[_2_]]

On May 13, 11:18*am, John Stone wrote:
On 5/13/10 5:12 AM, in article
, "Bret L"

wrote:

*I think Nelson Pass is a decent guy (and yes, I know...again
irrelevant) but I am not a huge fan of these minimal designs. I think
his work with Threshold was a lot better.

Based on what? The power amps he makes today actually measure much lower
distortion and noise, and can put way more power into low impedance loads
than the older Threshold products. I'm talking about the X series products
in the Pass Labs line, not the First Watt products which are more DIY
oriented. I doubt you have any firsthand experience at all with any current
Pass Labs products. If you actually measured one thoroughly, you would have
to admit they're the real deal in every respect.

That's what I felt. I used the First Watt F3 for three months. At the
end of the review I had a chance to buy, but I didn't because I
already owned a Yamamoto Sound Craft A-08 45 and I felt that their
presentations appealed to me in the same way. A few months later,
after burning through a couple of sets of NOS 45 output tubes, I
kicked myself for not keeping the F3.

By the way, since we're talking about Nelson Pass, I recently heard a
system powered by an older Pass Aleph 3. That's another gem from
Nelson.

[Bret L]

On May 13, 2:58*pm, Boon wrote:
On May 13, 11:18*am, John Stone wrote:



On 5/13/10 5:12 AM, in article
, "Bret L"

wrote:

*I think Nelson Pass is a decent guy (and yes, I know...again
irrelevant) but I am not a huge fan of these minimal designs. I think
his work with Threshold was a lot better.

Based on what? The power amps he makes today actually measure much lower
distortion and noise, and can put way more power into low impedance loads
than the older Threshold products. I'm talking about the X series products
in the Pass Labs line, not the First Watt products which are more DIY
oriented. I doubt you have any firsthand experience at all with any current
Pass Labs products. If you actually measured one thoroughly, you would have
to admit they're the real deal in every respect.

That's what I felt. I used the First Watt F3 for three months. At the
end of the review I had a chance to buy, but I didn't because I
already owned a Yamamoto Sound Craft A-08 45 and I felt that their
presentations appealed to me in the same way. A few months later,
after burning through a couple of sets of NOS 45 output tubes, I
kicked myself for not keeping the F3.

In PROPERLY DESIGNED equipment such as the antique radios that used
them a 45, singly or in push pull would last many years. I know of a
first series Zenith Stratosphere console, which ran four pairs of 45s
in push pull which had been run every day since new for several hours
and was "retired" only in the early 1980s. It was sold at an estate
sale in the early nineties and during restoration it was found that
every tube in the set except for two rectifiers was original. Of the
eight 45s three of them still met emission spec and only one was
completely dead.

If I had a Yamamoto Sound Craft A-08 I would first reverse engineer
it to see what the problem is and either engineer a fix or dismantle
the set for parts, utterly defacing all manufacturer's marks to
prevent rebuild and make something more useful out of the remains. Or,
give it a good blast of .50 BMG rounds (every fourth a tracer is nice)
and put the video on YouTube.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
,
Boon wrote:

On May 12, 7:07?pm, Bret L wrote:
?I've heard a couple different Orion installations, with very
different amps, in different rooms. They are not exactly my thing, but
they certainly are a remarkable design. They do certain things
extremely well.

?The "mainstream" (sic) high end audio industry (sic) likes to pretend
they do not exist.

?They are far superior in terms of what they do presentationwise to
many of the popular high end saloon speaker brands. Since they are not
a saloon vendable product and Linkwitz does not buy full page ads in
Stereopile this presents an issue for the high end press.

?I don't own an Orion installation, and I have no plans to do so in
the near future. I personally prefer the articulation and delineation
of a god horn setup, and although I readily acknowledge the
superiority of electronic crossovers and multi-amping, I am content so
far with the passive crossover network driven by a halfway decent tube
amplifier. ?But the Orions and Linkwitz lab certainly have proven to
be a good revelator of high end bull****.

Maybe, maybe not. Linkwitz is a good designer and has a great track
record, but the prices he charges for a finished pair of Orions is
hardly a good value. If Scott was able to build them for next to
nothing, then he could have done a lot worse.

Now Nelson Pass' First Watt "kitchen table" amps are truly interesting
designs that sound great...and he charges fair prices for them. I
reviewed the F3, and it offered all of the sonic benefits of a great
SET amp without the hassles and idiosyncracies. I wouldn't mind owning
one in the near future.

I visited Pass' place in Reno while I lived there. He's a very
interesting man.

[Bret L]

On May 14, 1:23*am, Jenn wrote:
In article
Now Nelson Pass' First Watt "kitchen table" amps are truly interesting
designs that sound great...and he charges fair prices for them. I
reviewed the F3, and it offered all of the sonic benefits of a great
SET amp without the hassles and idiosyncracies. I wouldn't mind owning
one in the near future.

I visited Pass' place in Reno while I lived there. *He's a very
interesting man.

Yes he is. He wrote a lot of good articles for DCHA's magazine in its
salad days, and I have talked with him several times. He was also a
mentor of sorts to Norm Thagard who went on to (when not flying on the
Space Shuttle or a Soyuz rocket) design a couple of remarkable things
on his own.

[Bret L]

On May 13, 11:18*am, John Stone wrote:
On 5/13/10 5:12 AM, in article
, "Bret L"

wrote:

*I think Nelson Pass is a decent guy (and yes, I know...again
irrelevant) but I am not a huge fan of these minimal designs. I think
his work with Threshold was a lot better.

Based on what? The power amps he makes today actually measure much lower
distortion and noise, and can put way more power into low impedance loads
than the older Threshold products. I'm talking about the X series products
in the Pass Labs line, not the First Watt products which are more DIY
oriented. I doubt you have any firsthand experience at all with any current
Pass Labs products. If you actually measured one thoroughly, you would have
to admit they're the real deal in every respect.

You are right i am talking about the First Watt and before as the
prev poster discussed. The current front line is beyond the scope of
this discussion and no I do not have access to one for test. I do have
the bench to test it, an AP ATS-1 however. I'm also working a deal for
a SRS narrowband spectrum analyzer which should be a lot of fun as
well.