[Bret L]

After listening to both commercially manufactured and homebrew/kit/
DIY-design small speakers for some time, going back to good BIG horn
speakers is a definite ear-opener. They have an immediacy and punch
that is simply in a different league from even the finest box
speakers, particularly small ones. Larger systems like Wilson Audio
and the larger Genelec active systems (and not to say the two are
identical, indeed, quite different) have man fine qualities but they
never give the effortless, seemingly infinitely powerful midrange and
treble of a good horn system. The small ones don't even compete with
the bigger box systems.

The best horn systems are simply not available as a completed,
turnkey product. Bruce Edgar never did achieve the status of a regular
manufacturer, and he was probably the leading light in the market for
clean-sheet-of-paper designs in the modern era.

The SOTA seems to be with the Klipsch modifiers, who fit best-of-
breed drivers and rework crossovers to the classic klipsch bass
sections for the most part. Other designs are available-the JBL
Hartsfield, is reproduced in several forms by a couple of small
vendors, and Tannoy makes its excellent Dual Concentrics in a
stunningly overpriced line of horn cabinets intended for the Oriental
markets. But the Klipsches are sort of the small block Chevys of horn
speakers.

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Bret L" wrote in message
...

The SOTA seems to be with the Klipsch modifiers, who fit best-of-
breed drivers and rework crossovers to the classic klipsch bass
sections for the most part. Other designs are available-the JBL
Hartsfield, is reproduced in several forms by a couple of small
vendors, and Tannoy makes its excellent Dual Concentrics in a
stunningly overpriced line of horn cabinets intended for the Oriental
markets. But the Klipsches are sort of the small block Chevys of horn
speakers.

Are you familiar with the products of the long-established
British manufacturer Lowther. Excellent!

http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/


Iain

[Bret L]

On Feb 2, 3:23*am, "Iain Churches" wrote:
"Bret L" wrote in message

...

*The SOTA seems to be with the Klipsch modifiers, who fit best-of-
breed drivers and rework crossovers to the classic klipsch bass
sections for the most part. Other designs are available-the JBL
Hartsfield, is reproduced in several forms by a couple of small
vendors, and Tannoy makes its excellent Dual Concentrics in a
stunningly overpriced line of horn cabinets intended for the Oriental
markets. But the Klipsches are sort of the small block Chevys of horn
speakers.

Are you familiar with the products of the long-established
British manufacturer Lowther. *Excellent!

http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/

Iain

Yes. Lowther does not manufacture a horn speaker, but rather a wide-
range driver for single driver applications.

Can't stand 'em personally. Sorry.

[Lionel[_8_]]

Le 02/02/2010 10:23, Iain Churches a écrit :
"Bret wrote in message
...

The SOTA seems to be with the Klipsch modifiers, who fit best-of-
breed drivers and rework crossovers to the classic klipsch bass
sections for the most part. Other designs are available-the JBL
Hartsfield, is reproduced in several forms by a couple of small
vendors, and Tannoy makes its excellent Dual Concentrics in a
stunningly overpriced line of horn cabinets intended for the Oriental
markets. But the Klipsches are sort of the small block Chevys of horn
speakers.

Are you familiar with the products of the long-established
British manufacturer Lowther. Excellent!

http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/

If you are looking for something really more melodious than any US V8
you should spend few minutes here :

http://www.supravox.fr/

[Arny Krueger]

"Bret L" wrote in message

After listening to both commercially manufactured and
homebrew/kit/ DIY-design small speakers for some time,
going back to good BIG horn speakers is a definite
ear-opener. They have an immediacy and punch that is
simply in a different league from even the finest box
speakers, particularly small ones. Larger systems like
Wilson Audio and the larger Genelec active systems (and
not to say the two are identical, indeed, quite
different) have man fine qualities but they never give
the effortless, seemingly infinitely powerful midrange
and treble of a good horn system. The small ones don't
even compete with the bigger box systems.

Never had the pleasure of hearing a Summa, eh Bret?

[John Stone]

On 2/2/10 2:18 AM, in article
, "Bret L"
wrote:

After listening to both commercially manufactured and homebrew/kit/
DIY-design small speakers for some time, going back to good BIG horn
speakers is a definite ear-opener. They have an immediacy and punch
that is simply in a different league from even the finest box
speakers, particularly small ones. Larger systems like Wilson Audio
and the larger Genelec active systems (and not to say the two are
identical, indeed, quite different) have man fine qualities but they
never give the effortless, seemingly infinitely powerful midrange and
treble of a good horn system. The small ones don't even compete with
the bigger box systems.

The best horn systems are simply not available as a completed,
turnkey product. Bruce Edgar never did achieve the status of a regular
manufacturer, and he was probably the leading light in the market for
clean-sheet-of-paper designs in the modern era.

The SOTA seems to be with the Klipsch modifiers, who fit best-of-
breed drivers and rework crossovers to the classic klipsch bass
sections for the most part. Other designs are available-the JBL
Hartsfield, is reproduced in several forms by a couple of small
vendors, and Tannoy makes its excellent Dual Concentrics in a
stunningly overpriced line of horn cabinets intended for the Oriental
markets. But the Klipsches are sort of the small block Chevys of horn
speakers.

I have never heard a horn based system that isn't grossly colored. They may
have dynamic "punch", but the compression distortion in the mid and tweeter
horns is obvious and the driver blending is non existent until you are well
into the far field. In a huge room they may work well, but in an average
listening space they are a stupid choice. The first time I heard a pair of
full size K-Horns was in the early 70's, and even then I found the
coloration appalling. Yes, they could play loud enough to make your ears
bleed, but that was it. They didn't even go very deep in the bass. A pair of
large Advents sounded much more accurate to my ears, and they were hardly
the ultimate. I've heard the Edgar horns at many a show, and they have many
of the same problems.

[Harry Lavo]

"Bret L" wrote in message
...
After listening to both commercially manufactured and homebrew/kit/
DIY-design small speakers for some time, going back to good BIG horn
speakers is a definite ear-opener. They have an immediacy and punch
that is simply in a different league from even the finest box
speakers, particularly small ones. Larger systems like Wilson Audio
and the larger Genelec active systems (and not to say the two are
identical, indeed, quite different) have man fine qualities but they
never give the effortless, seemingly infinitely powerful midrange and
treble of a good horn system. The small ones don't even compete with
the bigger box systems.

The best horn systems are simply not available as a completed,
turnkey product. Bruce Edgar never did achieve the status of a regular
manufacturer, and he was probably the leading light in the market for
clean-sheet-of-paper designs in the modern era.

The SOTA seems to be with the Klipsch modifiers, who fit best-of-
breed drivers and rework crossovers to the classic klipsch bass
sections for the most part. Other designs are available-the JBL
Hartsfield, is reproduced in several forms by a couple of small
vendors, and Tannoy makes its excellent Dual Concentrics in a
stunningly overpriced line of horn cabinets intended for the Oriental
markets. But the Klipsches are sort of the small block Chevys of horn
speakers.

My dad had a chain of electronic / hi-fi stores back in the early fifties,
and as a result I grew up with the very largest (pre-Hartsfield) JBL corner
horn driven by a 25w Newcomb power amp (with umbilecal preamp). Dad was
friends with Emory Cook ("Sounds of Our Times") one of the very first
"audiophile" record labels (the AUDIOPHILE label was the other....we had
both in abundance). These records on his system sounded as real/realer than
any system I have heard since. Red Nichols and his Five Pennies playing
dixieland sounded more "in the room" than anything I have heard since, with
only a few exceptions. A really good horn system was a really good system,
period.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article ,
"Harry Lavo" wrote:


My dad had a chain of electronic / hi-fi stores back in the early fifties,
and as a result I grew up with the very largest (pre-Hartsfield) JBL corner
horn driven by a 25w Newcomb power amp (with umbilecal preamp). Dad was
friends with Emory Cook ("Sounds of Our Times") one of the very first
"audiophile" record labels (the AUDIOPHILE label was the other....we had
both in abundance). These records on his system sounded as real/realer than
any system I have heard since. Red Nichols and his Five Pennies playing
dixieland sounded more "in the room" than anything I have heard since, with
only a few exceptions. A really good horn system was a really good system,
period.

Harry, with this and other posts of yours, I've come away with an
admiration for your home audio experiences. Thanks for sharing them.

[Harry Lavo]

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Harry Lavo" wrote:


My dad had a chain of electronic / hi-fi stores back in the early
fifties,
and as a result I grew up with the very largest (pre-Hartsfield) JBL
corner
horn driven by a 25w Newcomb power amp (with umbilecal preamp). Dad was
friends with Emory Cook ("Sounds of Our Times") one of the very first
"audiophile" record labels (the AUDIOPHILE label was the other....we had
both in abundance). These records on his system sounded as real/realer
than
any system I have heard since. Red Nichols and his Five Pennies playing
dixieland sounded more "in the room" than anything I have heard since,
with
only a few exceptions. A really good horn system was a really good
system,
period.

Harry, with this and other posts of yours, I've come away with an
admiration for your home audio experiences. Thanks for sharing them.

Thanks, Jenn. I feel I really was pretty much in on the start of the
industry, albeit as a 10-12yr old sweeping the store ('49-'51). And always
involved in music. The two made a good combination / foundation for a
lifelong love of good home music reproduction.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Feb 2, 7:36*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
*"Harry Lavo" wrote:

My dad had a chain of electronic / hi-fi stores back in the early fifties,
and as a result I grew up with the very largest (pre-Hartsfield) JBL corner
horn driven by a 25w Newcomb power amp (with umbilecal preamp). *Dad was
friends with Emory Cook ("Sounds of Our Times") one of the very first
"audiophile" record labels (the AUDIOPHILE label was the other....we had
both in abundance). *These records on his system sounded as real/realer than
any system I have heard since. * Red Nichols and his Five Pennies playing
dixieland sounded more "in the room" than anything I have heard since, with
only a few exceptions. *A really good horn system was a really good system,
period.

Harry, with this and other posts of yours, I've come away with an
admiration for your home audio experiences. *Thanks for sharing them.

I'll second that.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Feb 2, 3:33*am, Bret L wrote:
On Feb 2, 3:23*am, "Iain Churches" wrote:





"Bret L" wrote in message

...

*The SOTA seems to be with the Klipsch modifiers, who fit best-of-
breed drivers and rework crossovers to the classic klipsch bass
sections for the most part. Other designs are available-the JBL
Hartsfield, is reproduced in several forms by a couple of small
vendors, and Tannoy makes its excellent Dual Concentrics in a
stunningly overpriced line of horn cabinets intended for the Oriental
markets. But the Klipsches are sort of the small block Chevys of horn
speakers.

Are you familiar with the products of the long-established
British manufacturer Lowther. *Excellent!

http://www.lowtherloudspeakers.com/

Iain

*Yes. Lowther does not manufacture a horn speaker, but rather a wide-
range driver for single driver applications.

*Can't stand 'em personally. Sorry.

I've heard them sound absolutely wonderful and absolutely horrible.
Set up is the key, and the right (i.e. low-powered) amp helps. But
they're more for people who like to listen to a certain kind of music
and don't mind sitting in a fairly small sweet spot.

I'm surpirsed no one has mentioned Avantgarde. Listening to a system
that consisted of Avantgarde Trios, an Audio Note Onga-ku and a Wilson-
Benesch Act One TT/arm/cart is one of the highlights of my audio life.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Feb 2, 8:13*am, John Stone wrote:
On 2/2/10 2:18 AM, in article
, "Bret L"





wrote:
*After listening to both commercially manufactured and homebrew/kit/
DIY-design small speakers for some time, going back to good BIG horn
speakers is a definite ear-opener. They have an immediacy and punch
that is simply in a different league from even the finest box
speakers, particularly small ones. Larger systems like Wilson Audio
and the larger Genelec active systems (and not to say the two are
identical, indeed, quite different) have man fine qualities but they
never give the effortless, seemingly infinitely powerful midrange and
treble of a good horn system. The small ones don't even compete with
the bigger box systems.

*The best horn systems are simply not available as a completed,
turnkey product. Bruce Edgar never did achieve the status of a regular
manufacturer, and he was probably the leading light in the market for
clean-sheet-of-paper designs in the modern era.

* The SOTA seems to be with the Klipsch modifiers, who fit best-of-
breed drivers and rework crossovers to the classic klipsch bass
sections for the most part. Other designs are available-the JBL
Hartsfield, is reproduced in several forms by a couple of small
vendors, and Tannoy makes its excellent Dual Concentrics in a
stunningly overpriced line of horn cabinets intended for the Oriental
markets. But the Klipsches are sort of the small block Chevys of horn
speakers.

I have never heard a horn based system that isn't grossly colored. They may
have dynamic "punch", but the compression distortion in the mid and tweeter
horns is obvious and the driver blending is non existent until you are well
into the far field. In a huge room they may work well, but in an average
listening space they are a stupid choice. *The first time I heard a pair of
full size K-Horns was in the early 70's, and even then I found the
coloration appalling. Yes, they could play *loud enough to make your ears
bleed, but that was it. They didn't even go very deep in the bass. A pair of
large Advents sounded much more accurate to my ears, and they were hardly
the ultimate. I've heard the Edgar horns at many a show, and they have many
of the same problems.

I've heard the Edgar horns a few times myself, and they were
overbearing unless they were in a really, really big room. Plus, the
size of the individual instruments were exaggerated as well. But you
could hear every single detail in a recording.

Definitely colored though.

[Bret L]

On Feb 2, 8:05*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Bret L" wrote in message



After listening to both commercially manufactured and
homebrew/kit/ DIY-design small speakers for some time,
going back to good BIG horn speakers is a definite
ear-opener. They have an immediacy and punch that is
simply in a different league from even the finest box
speakers, particularly small ones. Larger systems like
Wilson Audio and the larger Genelec active systems (and
not to say the two are identical, indeed, quite
different) have man fine qualities but they never give
the effortless, seemingly infinitely powerful midrange
and treble of a good horn system. The small ones don't
even compete with the bigger box systems.

Never had the pleasure of hearing a Summa, eh Bret?

Not super efficient. Back to big amp small speaker....

[Harry Lavo]

"Boon" wrote in message
...
On Feb 2, 7:36 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Harry Lavo" wrote:

My dad had a chain of electronic / hi-fi stores back in the early
fifties,
and as a result I grew up with the very largest (pre-Hartsfield) JBL
corner
horn driven by a 25w Newcomb power amp (with umbilecal preamp). Dad was
friends with Emory Cook ("Sounds of Our Times") one of the very first
"audiophile" record labels (the AUDIOPHILE label was the other....we had
both in abundance). These records on his system sounded as real/realer
than
any system I have heard since. Red Nichols and his Five Pennies playing
dixieland sounded more "in the room" than anything I have heard since,
with
only a few exceptions. A really good horn system was a really good
system,
period.

Harry, with this and other posts of yours, I've come away with an
admiration for your home audio experiences. Thanks for sharing them.

I'll second that.

Thanks, Boon.

These last 55 years as an audiophile have brought me tremendous satisfaction
and joy. It's pleasant for me to be able to share a bit of them.

And it is not over.

Last year I stumbled on an obscure multi-channel amp manufactured in Mexico
(the Margules Audio Daleth) that rejuvenated my moribund five-channel
system. I bought the Daleth used for only $600 through Audiogon. One
multichannel imput (there are two) was out and one of the three stereo
inputs was out, but otherwise with external switchers I alread had these
have not proven to be a problem. The preamplifier uses full Class A
circuitry and sounds like my ARC preamps of the past, along with the most
incredible transient response (read "slam") I have ever heard. Not to
mention really fine analog matrixed stereo. So every day I am blessed with
great sound whenever I choose, whether its Toussaint's Bright Mississipi, or
John Hyatt, or a Beethoven Quartet. Or just the fine local public radio
station....in five-channel sound.

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Boon" wrote in message
...
On Feb 2, 7:36 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Harry Lavo" wrote:

My dad had a chain of electronic / hi-fi stores back in the early
fifties,
and as a result I grew up with the very largest (pre-Hartsfield) JBL
corner
horn driven by a 25w Newcomb power amp (with umbilecal preamp). Dad was
friends with Emory Cook ("Sounds of Our Times") one of the very first
"audiophile" record labels (the AUDIOPHILE label was the other....we had
both in abundance). These records on his system sounded as real/realer
than
any system I have heard since. Red Nichols and his Five Pennies playing
dixieland sounded more "in the room" than anything I have heard since,
with
only a few exceptions. A really good horn system was a really good
system,
period.

Harry, with this and other posts of yours, I've come away with an
admiration for your home audio experiences. Thanks for sharing them.

I'll second that.

I too. It's interesting that ones childhood experiences and exposure
to music can sow a seed, even though you may not realise it at the
time. Both my father and my brother were professional musicians.
Playing and tasking about music, and listening (proper listening)
to records was a part of our life. I thought it was the norm:-)

Iain

[hophead]

In article ac12dd57-bdaa-44a9-86ba-5b79dd677334
@g1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com, says...

I'm surpirsed no one has mentioned Avantgarde. Listening to a system
that consisted of Avantgarde Trios, an Audio Note Onga-ku and a Wilson-
Benesch Act One TT/arm/cart is one of the highlights of my audio life.

Wow - that must have sounded *phenomenal*!

Each item in that list is state of the art: the combination must have
been magic!

[hophead]

In article , says...

Thanks, Jenn. I feel I really was pretty much in on the start of the
industry, albeit as a 10-12yr old sweeping the store ('49-'51). And always
involved in music. The two made a good combination / foundation for a
lifelong love of good home music reproduction.

That's awesome Harry.

I came to this game rather late in life and I admit I'm a bit jealous of
someone like yourself who grew up surrounded with high quality music
reproduction. Of course, I did grow up with a fair bit of live music and
I'm sure that's where my current love of music originated.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Feb 3, 1:54*pm, hophead wrote:
In article ac12dd57-bdaa-44a9-86ba-5b79dd677334
@g1g2000yqi.googlegroups.com, says...

I'm surpirsed no one has mentioned Avantgarde. Listening to a system
that consisted of Avantgarde Trios, an Audio Note Onga-ku and a Wilson-
Benesch Act One TT/arm/cart is one of the highlights of my audio life.

Wow - that must have sounded *phenomenal*!

Each item in that list is state of the art: the combination must have
been magic!

I wrote an article about it:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl6.html

And the follow up:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl15.html

[Boon[_2_]]

On Feb 3, 10:48*am, "Iain Churches" wrote:
"Boon" wrote in message

...
On Feb 2, 7:36 pm, Jenn wrote:





In article ,
"Harry Lavo" wrote:

My dad had a chain of electronic / hi-fi stores back in the early
fifties,
and as a result I grew up with the very largest (pre-Hartsfield) JBL
corner
horn driven by a 25w Newcomb power amp (with umbilecal preamp). Dad was
friends with Emory Cook ("Sounds of Our Times") one of the very first
"audiophile" record labels (the AUDIOPHILE label was the other....we had
both in abundance). These records on his system sounded as real/realer
than
any system I have heard since. Red Nichols and his Five Pennies playing
dixieland sounded more "in the room" than anything I have heard since,
with
only a few exceptions. A really good horn system was a really good
system,
period.

Harry, with this and other posts of yours, I've come away with an
admiration for your home audio experiences. Thanks for sharing them.
I'll second that.

I too. It's interesting that ones childhood experiences and exposure
to music can sow a seed, even though you may not realise it at the
time. *Both my father and my brother were professional musicians.
Playing and tasking about music, and listening (proper listening)
to records *was a part of our life. I thought it was the norm:-)


My introduction to audio came when I was a teen in the mid "70s. My
older brother was stationed in Okinawa, and all the servicemen were
getting great deals on Japanese equipment. That was back when the
receiver was king, and my brother wound up getting an all-Kenwood
system that really got me hooked. I remember spending my paper route
money on a Sansui 8080DB. Let's see, I also owned a Kenwood KR-9600, a
Concept 5.5. I made friends with the salepeople at Pacific Stereo and
used to hang out there after school. It amused them to no end that
this kid who wasn't even old enough to drive had a pretty decent
system.

I remember I used to love my Dual 510 with a Shure V-15 Type III
cartridge. I went through a bunch of speakers as well...AR 12s,
Jennings Towers and Concept speakers with the Heil Air Transformers.
By the time I graduated from high school I had separates from SAE and
a big pair of Infinity speakers.

[hophead]

In article f000cc85-62f3-441a-a745-2daafeb7b45e@
3g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, says...

I wrote an article about it:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl6.html

And the follow up:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl15.html

Great stories - that sounds like quite the experience!

[Boon[_2_]]

On Feb 4, 11:12*am, hophead wrote:
In article f000cc85-62f3-441a-a745-2daafeb7b45e@
3g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, says...

I wrote an article about it:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl6.html

And the follow up:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl15.html

Great stories - that sounds like quite the experience!

Unforunately, I haven't spoken to Dr. Cameron in many years, so I
don't know how he's doing. But that system was truly amazing. I spoke
to Jim Smith, the former distributor for Avantgarde, when I reviewed
his set-up book for TONEAudio. Jim said that he thinks he knows Dr.
Cameron and that he's still doing fine.

[hophead]

In article 3e081593-b4c3-474b-abea-349a950d30a9@
36g2000yqu.googlegroups.com, says...

Unforunately, I haven't spoken to Dr. Cameron in many years, so I
don't know how he's doing. But that system was truly amazing. I spoke
to Jim Smith, the former distributor for Avantgarde, when I reviewed
his set-up book for TONEAudio. Jim said that he thinks he knows Dr.
Cameron and that he's still doing fine.

That's good to hear.

By the way, I really like Jim's book. He knows his stuff when it comes
to setting up and "dialing in" a sound system.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Feb 4, 12:54*pm, hophead wrote:
In article 3e081593-b4c3-474b-abea-349a950d30a9@
36g2000yqu.googlegroups.com, says...

Unforunately, I haven't spoken to Dr. Cameron in many years, so I
don't know how he's doing. But that system was truly amazing. I spoke
to Jim Smith, the former distributor for Avantgarde, when I reviewed
his set-up book for TONEAudio. Jim said that he thinks he knows Dr.
Cameron and that he's still doing fine.

That's good to hear.

I think he was at least seventy when I used to hang around with him,
so that puts him well into his eighties by now.


By the way, I really like Jim's book. He knows his stuff when it comes
to setting up and "dialing in" a sound system.

That is such a good book. As knowledgeable as you might think you are,
there's always something in that book that will surprise you. For
instance, I started using a wireless router a couple of years ago and
didn't even think it could affect the sound of my system. It did.

[hophead]

In article f1c402d8-7df3-4d0f-bd8c-
,
says...

That is such a good book. As knowledgeable as you might think you are,
there's always something in that book that will surprise you. For
instance, I started using a wireless router a couple of years ago and
didn't even think it could affect the sound of my system. It did.

Yeah, that kind of thing is good info. In my case, my wireless doesn't
affect anything sonically (that I can tell). However, if my notebook is
plugged into the same circuit it does produce some noise. And, there's a
dimmer switch that seems to adversely affect the sound quality, too.
That's all stuff I wouldn't have thought about exploring until I read
the book.

[Harry Lavo]

"hophead" wrote in message
. ..
In article f000cc85-62f3-441a-a745-2daafeb7b45e@
3g2000yqn.googlegroups.com, says...

I wrote an article about it:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl6.html

And the follow up:

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl15.html

Great stories - that sounds like quite the experience!


+1 to that!