[Bret L]

I went over to a local audiophile's house to do some listening today.
He has a full tape lab setup with numerous open reel machines as well
as excellent turntables and we wound up listening to several
iterations, LP and tape, of a classic album by one of the really huge
pop singers of the 20th century. I'm not saying who because the family
have nothing better to do than **** with hobbyists with bootleg
material. he's got a connection with some people who have full access
to certain vaults, and as a result, got current and fresh "safety
copies" of the final mixdown tapes and also some individual tracks to
a couple of the classic albums you probably have if you're a serious
audiophile. These are one gen off the 50s and early 60s actual tapes
on current Quantegy stock on a correctly set up machine.

Out of the same vault, he's got similar tapes from a couple of 60s
and 70s rock bands that are equally monster. Again, I'm sworn to
secrecy as to what exactly. These are significant because one is also
available as a tape through "The Tape Project", in 1/4" rather than
1/2".

The listening reinforced the following conclusions I have made before
but not so explicitly:

1) NO vinyl compares to real tape, by which I mean, 1/2" or 1" on a
15 or 30 ips pro transport.

2.) The difference between 1/2" and 1/4" on the same machine with a
different headstack, is significant, yet the 1/4' still beats vinyl.

3.) Don't **** good money away on consumer tape machines. In fact,
don't even mess with prosumer machines. The Revox B77 is about as good
as they get and there is no comparison with it and an AG440. And you
can get an AG440 for under four figures if you look around.

4. If you are not a DIY mentality person, tape is not for you. Stick
with SACD/DVD-A/CD. You have to be mechanically and electronically
somewhat capable to play in this sandbox.

5. The best available commercial recordings of some very famous
artists are not up to what's in the vaults. It's pathetic.

6. The high end ****s love to howl about "It's all about the
muuuuuuuuusic." What's interesting in listening to these tapes-not so
much the masters but the running tracks-is that it's the before and
after banter and the clams that really make the hair on the back of
your neck stand up. Or the sounds of stuff being moved, little
practice vamps, etc. Knowing that this stuff is most of a lifetime old
and the number of people who have heard it is in the two digits, if
that, is what really gets your notice.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Aug 16, 12:32�am, Bret L wrote:
�I went over to a local audiophile's house to do some listening today.
He has a full tape lab setup with numerous open reel machines as well
as excellent turntables and we wound up listening to several
iterations, LP and tape, �of a classic album by one of the really huge
pop singers of the 20th century. I'm not saying who because the family
have nothing better to do than **** with hobbyists with bootleg
material. he's got a connection with some people who have full access
to certain vaults, and as a result, got current and fresh "safety
copies" of the final mixdown tapes and also some individual tracks to
a couple of the classic albums you probably have if you're a serious
audiophile. �These are one gen off the 50s and early 60s actual tapes
on current Quantegy stock on a correctly set up machine.

�Out of the same vault, he's got similar tapes from a couple of 60s
and 70s rock bands that are equally monster. Again, I'm sworn to
secrecy as to what exactly. These are significant because one is also
available as a tape through "The Tape Project", in 1/4" rather than
1/2".

�The listening reinforced the following conclusions I have made before
but not so explicitly:

�1) NO vinyl compares to real tape, by which I mean, 1/2" or 1" on a
15 or 30 ips pro transport.

�2.) The difference between 1/2" and 1/4" on the same machine with a
different headstack, is significant, yet the 1/4' still beats vinyl.

�3.) Don't **** good money away on consumer tape machines. In fact,
don't even mess with prosumer machines. The Revox B77 is about as good
as they get and there is no comparison with it and an AG440. And you
can get an AG440 for under four figures if you look around.

�4. If you are not a DIY mentality person, tape is not for you. Stick
with SACD/DVD-A/CD. �You have to be mechanically and electronically
somewhat capable to play in this sandbox.

�5. The best available commercial recordings of some very famous
artists are not up to what's in the vaults. It's pathetic.

�6. The high end ****s love to howl about "It's all about the
muuuuuuuuusic." What's interesting in listening to these tapes-not so
much the masters but the running tracks-is that it's the before and
after banter and the clams that really make the hair on the back of
your neck stand up. Or the sounds of stuff being moved, little
practice vamps, etc. Knowing that this stuff is most of a lifetime old
and the number of people who have heard it is in the two digits, if
that, is what really gets your notice.

Good post. I've spent some time listening to master tapes at RTI over
the last few years, and it's really an ear-opening experience. But I
was also surprised listening to playback right off the cutting lathe
with a fairly modest Shure pickup. In direct comparisons, the test
pressings were surprisingly close to the tape (probably because
compression hadn't been added yet). Too bad the consumer doesn't get
this level of product, but it would probably ruin a lot of stylii.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Aug 16, 11:12�am, ScottW2 wrote:
On Aug 16, 9:05�am, vinyl anachronist
wrote:





On Aug 16, 12:32 am, Bret L wrote:

I went over to a local audiophile's house to do some listening today.
He has a full tape lab setup with numerous open reel machines as well
as excellent turntables and we wound up listening to several
iterations, LP and tape, of a classic album by one of the really huge
pop singers of the 20th century. I'm not saying who because the family
have nothing better to do than **** with hobbyists with bootleg
material. he's got a connection with some people who have full access
to certain vaults, and as a result, got current and fresh "safety
copies" of the final mixdown tapes and also some individual tracks to
a couple of the classic albums you probably have if you're a serious
audiophile. These are one gen off the 50s and early 60s actual tapes
on current Quantegy stock on a correctly set up machine.

Out of the same vault, he's got similar tapes from a couple of 60s
and 70s rock bands that are equally monster. Again, I'm sworn to
secrecy as to what exactly. These are significant because one is also
available as a tape through "The Tape Project", in 1/4" rather than
1/2".

The listening reinforced the following conclusions I have made before
but not so explicitly:

1) NO vinyl compares to real tape, by which I mean, 1/2" or 1" on a
15 or 30 ips pro transport.

2.) The difference between 1/2" and 1/4" on the same machine with a
different headstack, is significant, yet the 1/4' still beats vinyl.

3.) Don't **** good money away on consumer tape machines. In fact,
don't even mess with prosumer machines. The Revox B77 is about as good
as they get and there is no comparison with it and an AG440. And you
can get an AG440 for under four figures if you look around.

4. If you are not a DIY mentality person, tape is not for you. Stick
with SACD/DVD-A/CD. You have to be mechanically and electronically
somewhat capable to play in this sandbox.

5. The best available commercial recordings of some very famous
artists are not up to what's in the vaults. It's pathetic.

6. The high end ****s love to howl about "It's all about the
muuuuuuuuusic." What's interesting in listening to these tapes-not so
much the masters but the running tracks-is that it's the before and
after banter and the clams that really make the hair on the back of
your neck stand up. Or the sounds of stuff being moved, little
practice vamps, etc. Knowing that this stuff is most of a lifetime old
and the number of people who have heard it is in the two digits, if
that, is what really gets your notice.

Good post. I've spent some time listening to master tapes at RTI over
the last few years, and it's really an ear-opening experience. But I
was also surprised listening to playback right off the cutting lathe
with a fairly modest Shure pickup.

�Why would someone damage a newly cut lacquer by playing it?

It was a demonstration.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Aug 16, 11:52�am, ScottW2 wrote:
On Aug 16, 11:25�am, vinyl anachronist
wrote:





On Aug 16, 11:12 am, ScottW2 wrote:

On Aug 16, 9:05 am, vinyl anachronist
wrote:

On Aug 16, 12:32 am, Bret L wrote:

I went over to a local audiophile's house to do some listening today.
He has a full tape lab setup with numerous open reel machines as well
as excellent turntables and we wound up listening to several
iterations, LP and tape, of a classic album by one of the really huge
pop singers of the 20th century. I'm not saying who because the family
have nothing better to do than **** with hobbyists with bootleg
material. he's got a connection with some people who have full access
to certain vaults, and as a result, got current and fresh "safety
copies" of the final mixdown tapes and also some individual tracks to
a couple of the classic albums you probably have if you're a serious
audiophile. These are one gen off the 50s and early 60s actual tapes
on current Quantegy stock on a correctly set up machine.

Out of the same vault, he's got similar tapes from a couple of 60s
and 70s rock bands that are equally monster. Again, I'm sworn to
secrecy as to what exactly. These are significant because one is also
available as a tape through "The Tape Project", in 1/4" rather than
1/2".

The listening reinforced the following conclusions I have made before
but not so explicitly:

1) NO vinyl compares to real tape, by which I mean, 1/2" or 1" on a
15 or 30 ips pro transport.

2.) The difference between 1/2" and 1/4" on the same machine with a
different headstack, is significant, yet the 1/4' still beats vinyl.

3.) Don't **** good money away on consumer tape machines. In fact,
don't even mess with prosumer machines. The Revox B77 is about as good
as they get and there is no comparison with it and an AG440. And you
can get an AG440 for under four figures if you look around.

4. If you are not a DIY mentality person, tape is not for you. Stick
with SACD/DVD-A/CD. You have to be mechanically and electronically
somewhat capable to play in this sandbox.

5. The best available commercial recordings of some very famous
artists are not up to what's in the vaults. It's pathetic.

6. The high end ****s love to howl about "It's all about the
muuuuuuuuusic." What's interesting in listening to these tapes-not so
much the masters but the running tracks-is that it's the before and
after banter and the clams that really make the hair on the back of
your neck stand up. Or the sounds of stuff being moved, little
practice vamps, etc. Knowing that this stuff is most of a lifetime old
and the number of people who have heard it is in the two digits, if
that, is what really gets your notice.

Good post. I've spent some time listening to master tapes at RTI over
the last few years, and it's really an ear-opening experience. But I
was also surprised listening to playback right off the cutting lathe
with a fairly modest Shure pickup.

Why would someone damage a newly cut lacquer by playing it?

It was a demonstration.

�So what were they trying to demonstrate beyond that a modest Shure
cart can sound "ear-opening" on a decent master/pressing.

They demonstrated the entire LP mastering process. It's funny...when
you're good to people and develop friendships, you get invited to a
lot of cool events. When you don't, you spend all your time reading
right-wing blogs until you hate the world and everything in it.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Aug 16, 2:07*pm, ScottW2 wrote:

* Another leap off the cliff by the self-reliant mind.

2pid should investigate those he allows into his 'brain' more
thoroughly. LoL.

[vinyl anachronist]

On Aug 16, 12:07�pm, ScottW2 wrote:
On Aug 16, 12:05�pm, vinyl anachronist
wrote:





On Aug 16, 11:52 am, ScottW2 wrote:

On Aug 16, 11:25 am, vinyl anachronist
wrote:

On Aug 16, 11:12 am, ScottW2 wrote:

On Aug 16, 9:05 am, vinyl anachronist
wrote:

On Aug 16, 12:32 am, Bret L wrote:

I went over to a local audiophile's house to do some listening today.
He has a full tape lab setup with numerous open reel machines as well
as excellent turntables and we wound up listening to several
iterations, LP and tape, of a classic album by one of the really huge
pop singers of the 20th century. I'm not saying who because the family
have nothing better to do than **** with hobbyists with bootleg
material. he's got a connection with some people who have full access
to certain vaults, and as a result, got current and fresh "safety
copies" of the final mixdown tapes and also some individual tracks to
a couple of the classic albums you probably have if you're a serious
audiophile. These are one gen off the 50s and early 60s actual tapes
on current Quantegy stock on a correctly set up machine.

Out of the same vault, he's got similar tapes from a couple of 60s
and 70s rock bands that are equally monster. Again, I'm sworn to
secrecy as to what exactly. These are significant because one is also
available as a tape through "The Tape Project", in 1/4" rather than
1/2".

The listening reinforced the following conclusions I have made before
but not so explicitly:

1) NO vinyl compares to real tape, by which I mean, 1/2" or 1" on a
15 or 30 ips pro transport.

2.) The difference between 1/2" and 1/4" on the same machine with a
different headstack, is significant, yet the 1/4' still beats vinyl.

3.) Don't **** good money away on consumer tape machines. In fact,
don't even mess with prosumer machines. The Revox B77 is about as good
as they get and there is no comparison with it and an AG440. And you
can get an AG440 for under four figures if you look around.

4. If you are not a DIY mentality person, tape is not for you.. Stick
with SACD/DVD-A/CD. You have to be mechanically and electronically
somewhat capable to play in this sandbox.

5. The best available commercial recordings of some very famous
artists are not up to what's in the vaults. It's pathetic.

6. The high end ****s love to howl about "It's all about the
muuuuuuuuusic." What's interesting in listening to these tapes-not so
much the masters but the running tracks-is that it's the before and
after banter and the clams that really make the hair on the back of
your neck stand up. Or the sounds of stuff being moved, little
practice vamps, etc. Knowing that this stuff is most of a lifetime old
and the number of people who have heard it is in the two digits, if
that, is what really gets your notice.

Good post. I've spent some time listening to master tapes at RTI over
the last few years, and it's really an ear-opening experience. But I
was also surprised listening to playback right off the cutting lathe
with a fairly modest Shure pickup.

Why would someone damage a newly cut lacquer by playing it?

It was a demonstration.

So what were they trying to demonstrate beyond that a modest Shure
cart can sound "ear-opening" on a decent master/pressing.

They demonstrated the entire LP mastering process. It's funny...when
you're good to people and develop friendships, you get invited to a
lot of cool events. When you don't, you spend all your time reading
right-wing blogs until you hate the world and everything in it.

� Another leap off the cliff by the self-reliant mind.

Another meaningless statement from a man who needs his opinions spoon-
fed to him from strangers on the Internet.

[Bret L]

Anyway, I think it's worth mentioning the eq options for recordings
if people really want to pursue tape as an option.
I'd also point out that tape machines are relatively high maintenance
and any machine that hasn't been completely refurbed from the 70s/
80s will need it to perform well.

The EQ is on the electronic side and there are two or three common
standards, NAB, CCIR, IEC are just the more popular ones. Most pro
machines are adaptable by soldering a few parts as laid out and some
(Studers) are switchable.

in the world of pro decks, the transports and electronics are
separate and mix-and-match to an extent. You can see Ampex transports
with Inovonics, de Paravicini (overpriced and a PITA like everything
Captain Catchfire does), or who knows what electronics or Ampex
electronics on RCA (yecch), Crown (ehhhh) or Scully (ummm) transports
or any other imaginable setup.

You also have transport speed, head configuration, head impedance and
tape width to consider.

It's a hands-on hot rod mentality person's hobby unless you have
stupid money and can hire pro's in on a regular basis.

I also think this tape path is really just another way to acquire superior
masters that could be more easily provided on digital format.
I'd like to hear a digital recording of a tape project tape for example.


Maybe they'll do Nagra-D in the future.

[Arny Krueger]

"ScottW2" wrote in message


Why would someone damage a newly cut lacquer by playing
it?

It was common practice back in the day, to play it before plating, to check
out the sound quality of the lacquer. Probably still being done to this day.

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"ScottW2" wrote in message


Why would someone damage a newly cut lacquer by playing
it?

It was common practice back in the day, to play it before plating, to
check out the sound quality of the lacquer. Probably still being done to
this day.


NONSENSE. Master lacquers are never played!
Any professional cutting engineer will tell you that.

As Scott points out, it would be senseless to spend
time and care cutting a master lacquer only to destroy
it by playing. The acetate is extremely soft!

Where do you get this kind of nonsense from, Arny?
Please read any of the professional manuals on the
subject, BBC, Neumann, Westrex, Decca, etc etc.

One cuts a test lacquer to confirm ones calculations on
depth of cut and pitch and then plays this to check the sound
quality after carefully examining potentially problematic
spots such lateral fortissimo where two grooved might break
into each other or vertical phase where the groove depth
may become too shallow.

For a pre-production check, the second generation metal
from which the stamper is made can be played if required.
You need something like and SME 3012 arm to play them,
as they are14 inches in diameter. But, they sound wonderful.
I have a large number of them.


Iain

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"ScottW" wrote in message
...


I also think this tape path is really just another way to acquire superior
masters that could be more easily provided on digital format.
I'd like to hear a digital recording of a tape project tape for example.

Hi Scott.

It is not at all unusual, in pop mastering for the client
to ask for an "analogue pass". Many CD mastering facilities have
an analogue stereo mastering machine (here in Europe it's usually
a Studer A80/II with Dolby SR

There is an additional D/A converter to feed the signal to the
tape machine. The output from the replay amp (i.e. off tape)
is sent to A/D and then to outboard processing before mastering.

Iain