[mark steven brooks]

Hi all, I've noticed that new vinyl pressings typically come in 3
different weights: 150, 180 and 200 grams. Sometimes the same album
will be pressed in more than one weight. Is there a difference in sound
quality between the 3? If so why is that? Also, new vinyl releases
typically cost double that of a CD and contain about half as much music.
Is there such a noticeable difference in audio quality between CD and
vinyl that makes that 400% cost difference worth it? There seems to be
an incredible amount of hype out there.

[Scott Dorsey]

mark steven brooks wrote:
Hi all, I've noticed that new vinyl pressings typically come in 3
different weights: 150, 180 and 200 grams. Sometimes the same album
will be pressed in more than one weight. Is there a difference in sound
quality between the 3?

The heavier pressings are more massy, so they have slightly better damping.
The lighter pressings will tend to have the grooves deform a little bit more
due to stylus vibration. It's really not a big deal as long as you don't
make pressings that are Dynagroove-thin.

I'll normally recommend making 180 gram pressings because buyers like
them more, but I don't think you'll hear any difference between a 150 and
a 200 gram pressing. When you start getting into 120 gram and 90 gram
pressings, though, things get a little pear-shaped.

I think the all-time record is a plant in Trinidad that managed 65-gram
pressings. They were almost like Evatones, they were so thin. Sounded
pretty bad.

If so why is that? Also, new vinyl releases
typically cost double that of a CD and contain about half as much music.
Is there such a noticeable difference in audio quality between CD and
vinyl that makes that 400% cost difference worth it? There seems to be
an incredible amount of hype out there.

It's mostly hype, yes. The main advantage to the LP is that it's harder
to do abusive processing and get away with it. You can clip the hell out
of a CD to make it sound louder, but if you try and do the same thing to
an LP pressing you wind up with a disc that is quieter rather than louder
because you can't cut the clipped waveform at anything approaching reasonable
excursions. So often the LP will wind up sounding phenomenally better than
the CD pressing done at the same time. But it's not because the LP sounds
particularly good, it's because the CD sounds particularly bad.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Richard Crowley]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
It's mostly hype, yes. The main advantage to the LP is that it's harder
to do abusive processing and get away with it. You can clip the hell out
of a CD to make it sound louder, but if you try and do the same thing to
an LP pressing you wind up with a disc that is quieter rather than louder
because you can't cut the clipped waveform at anything approaching
reasonable
excursions. So often the LP will wind up sounding phenomenally better
than
the CD pressing done at the same time. But it's not because the LP sounds
particularly good, it's because the CD sounds particularly bad.

Maybe there's a new marketing label needed here...
"LP Mastered" (vs. CD Mastered)

Presumably a CD that has been "LP Mastered" would have the
best of both worlds.

[Scott Dorsey]

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
It's mostly hype, yes. The main advantage to the LP is that it's harder
to do abusive processing and get away with it. You can clip the hell out
of a CD to make it sound louder, but if you try and do the same thing to
an LP pressing you wind up with a disc that is quieter rather than louder
because you can't cut the clipped waveform at anything approaching
reasonable
excursions. So often the LP will wind up sounding phenomenally better
than
the CD pressing done at the same time. But it's not because the LP sounds
particularly good, it's because the CD sounds particularly bad.

Maybe there's a new marketing label needed here...
"LP Mastered" (vs. CD Mastered)

Presumably a CD that has been "LP Mastered" would have the
best of both worlds.

It would have no bass imaging, though! The sad part is although there is
a lot of abusive stuff you can't do on LP, there's a lot of good stuff you
can't do either.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Richard Crowley]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
Richard Crowley wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
It's mostly hype, yes. The main advantage to the LP is that it's harder
to do abusive processing and get away with it. You can clip the hell
out
of a CD to make it sound louder, but if you try and do the same thing to
an LP pressing you wind up with a disc that is quieter rather than
louder
because you can't cut the clipped waveform at anything approaching
reasonable
excursions. So often the LP will wind up sounding phenomenally better
than
the CD pressing done at the same time. But it's not because the LP
sounds
particularly good, it's because the CD sounds particularly bad.

Maybe there's a new marketing label needed here...
"LP Mastered" (vs. CD Mastered)

Presumably a CD that has been "LP Mastered" would have the
best of both worlds.

It would have no bass imaging, though! The sad part is although there is
a lot of abusive stuff you can't do on LP, there's a lot of good stuff you
can't do either.

But so many people are using (single) subwoofers, maybe that's not
a big deal anymore?

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Richard Crowley wrote:

| But so many people are using (single) subwoofers, maybe that's not
| a big deal anymore?

Reducing the channel separation in the bass range is a precious tool, but it
is at the cost of spatiality and perspective. And it is a lot of the sonic
difference between A-B stereo with a pair of omni's and some ORTF derivative
with a pair of cardioids. Single subwoofers belong in the 5.1 world where
they do Low Frequency Effects very well, they do not constitute valid audio
implements, for that you need a pair.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[nebulax]

On Jun 17, 10:55*am, mark steven brooks
wrote:
Hi all, I've noticed that new vinyl pressings typically come in 3
different weights: 150, 180 and 200 grams. *Sometimes the same album
will be pressed in more than one weight. Is there a difference in sound
quality between the 3? *If so why is that? *Also, new vinyl releases
typically cost double that of a CD and contain about half as much music.
Is there such a noticeable difference in audio quality between CD and
vinyl that makes that 400% cost difference worth it? * There seems to be
an incredible amount of hype out there.


I don't know about vinyl pressings being worth 400% more, but if you
like the way vinyl sounds, you aren't going to get that out of a cd.
Steve Albini still does some recordings that are 100% analog from
multitrack to master, and vinyl is the only way you're going to be
able to hear it like that without an extra stage of digital
conversion.

-Neb

[JWV Miller]

On Jun 18, 12:34*am, nebulax wrote:

snip

I don't know about vinyl pressings being worth 400% more, but if you
like the way vinyl sounds, you aren't going to get that out of a cd.
Steve Albini still does some recordings that are 100% analog from
multitrack to master, and vinyl is the only way you're going to be
able to hear it like that without an extra stage of digital
conversion.

What if you copy an LP to a CD? Will the "Vinyl magic" vanish?

[[email protected]]

On 2009-06-17 (ScottDorsey) said:
Presumably a CD that has been "LP Mastered" would have the
best of both worlds.
It would have no bass imaging, though! The sad part is although
there is a lot of abusive stuff you can't do on LP, there's a lot
of good stuff you can't do either.
True enough, but in most listening environments the bass
isn't going to be imaged that well anyway I"d hazard a
guess. But, for folks that are blessed with good listening
spaces, etc. this might be a factor g.
NOw out to the truck to see about ishing some more video
lines g.





Richard webb,
replace anything before at with elspider

[Mike Rivers]

JWV Miller wrote:

What if you copy an LP to a CD? Will the "Vinyl magic" vanish?

Not if you have a good enough playback system and A/D converter, and
you play it back on a sufficiently good CD player.

But (for entirely different reasons) it's sort of like loudspeakers. We can
tolerate some pretty bad faults but there are certain faults we just can't
tolerate. Chances are it will sound as good played back from a CD as
it does played back from your turntable, assuming you don't have a
super good turntable, cartridge, and phono preamp and listening on good
audiophile speakers, and you're using your computer's built-in sound
card to digitize it, and play it back through the computer speakers.

Even then, you'll get the more natural dynamics that the phonograph
record is likely to have.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Arny Krueger]

"JWV Miller" wrote in message


What if you copy an LP to a CD? Will the "Vinyl magic"
vanish?

Yes and no.

Depends on what you think "Vinyl Magic" is.

No, copying the LP to CD won't give you the need for the ritual of cleaning
and dropping the needle into the groove, and the need to pick the needle up
about a half hour later.

Copying the LP to CD won't make the big jacket go away unless you sell or
trash the LP, so that part of "Vinyl Magic" will be preserved.

But its not too hard to accurately capture the tics, pops, harshness,
fuzziness, rumble, noise and distortion that is inherent in the LP format.
Even one of the better on-board audio interfaces can accurately capture
that.

[William Sommerwerck]

But its not too hard to accurately capture the tics, pops,
harshness, fuzziness, rumble, noise, and distortion that
is inherent in the LP format. Even one of the better on-board
audio interfaces can accurately capture that.

Ticks, not tics.

I would be more than happy to play a 45-year-old LP, and then the
corresponding CD, and you will tell me which is which. Oh, you'll be able to
tell -- but the differences will not be anywhere nearly as huge as you make
them out.

The "catch" of course, is that this level of LP performance requires
much-less-than-inexpensive equipment.

And -- I'll repeat for the nth time -- I never really liked LPs -- I
preferred OR tape -- and I'm glad that analog media have been replaced by
digital.

[nebulax]

On Jun 18, 7:21*am, Soundhaspriority wrote:
In article ,

"nebulax" wrote...
I don't know about vinyl pressings being worth 400% more, but if you
like the way vinyl sounds, you aren't going to get that out of a cd.
Steve Albini still does some recordings that are 100% analog from
multitrack to master, and vinyl is the only way you're going to be
able to hear it like that without an extra stage of digital
conversion.

Enjoy your ticks and pops, moron.

"I don't really have a replacement career, it's a very gnawing thing."

Robert Morein
Dresher, PA
(310) 237-6511
(215) 646-4894


Enjoy your mental illness, Brian.

[nebulax]

On Jun 18, 12:16*pm, JWV Miller wrote:
On Jun 18, 12:34*am, nebulax wrote:

snip



I don't know about vinyl pressings being worth 400% more, but if you
like the way vinyl sounds, you aren't going to get that out of a cd.
Steve Albini still does some recordings that are 100% analog from
multitrack to master, and vinyl is the only way you're going to be
able to hear it like that without an extra stage of digital
conversion.

What if you copy an LP to a CD? Will the "Vinyl magic" vanish?


No, but it won't be 100% analog anymore. For sound quality's sake, I'd
much prefer getting a reel-to-reel copy of a master tape over a vinyl
pressing of the same album, but except in very rare cases that ain't
gonna happen.

[nebulax]

On Jun 19, 7:26*am, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:
But its not too hard to accurately capture the tics, pops,
harshness, fuzziness, rumble, noise, and distortion that
is inherent in the LP format. Even one of the better on-board
audio interfaces can accurately capture that.

Ticks, not tics.

I would be more than happy to play a 45-year-old LP, and then the
corresponding CD, and you will tell me which is which. Oh, you'll be able to
tell -- but the differences will not be anywhere nearly as huge as you make
them out.

The "catch" of course, is that this level of LP performance requires
much-less-than-inexpensive equipment.

And -- I'll repeat for the nth time -- I never really liked LPs -- I
preferred OR tape -- and I'm glad that analog media have been replaced by
digital.


I agree that getting good sound from an LP is an expensive hassle, and
I would also prefer hearing analog tracks from an open-reel tape, not
too distantly generated from the master, but the reality of actually
acquiring something like that these days is pretty remote.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

JWV Miller wrote:

|| I don't know about vinyl pressings being worth 400% more, but if you
|| like the way vinyl sounds, you aren't going to get that out of a cd.
|| Steve Albini still does some recordings that are 100% analog from
|| multitrack to master, and vinyl is the only way you're going to be
|| able to hear it like that without an extra stage of digital
|| conversion.

| What if you copy an LP to a CD? Will the "Vinyl magic" vanish?

Depends, if you consider the colouration that results from your grammophone
being microphonic to be the "Vinyl Magic" there's the one answer for ya. But
I recall reading about people with costly tape-recorders who copied their
entire record collection - or had staff do it - to 38 cm/s tape so as to be
able to listen to them without that colouration and that the default advice
for recording an lp to tape was to do it without simultanously listening to
it on loudspeaker.

If you want to hear how good vinyl is because silly things are not done in
mastering, then you HAVE to digitze it or to put the record player in a
nearby room so that the worst single cause of coloration on a good quality
setup is eliminated. If you don't do that, then it is will be the
grammophone and the loudspeakers you listen to rather than the record.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[William Sommerwerck]

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
JWV Miller wrote:

|| I don't know about vinyl pressings being worth 400% more, but if you
|| like the way vinyl sounds, you aren't going to get that out of a cd.
|| Steve Albini still does some recordings that are 100% analog from
|| multitrack to master, and vinyl is the only way you're going to be
|| able to hear it like that without an extra stage of digital
|| conversion.

| What if you copy an LP to a CD? Will the "Vinyl magic" vanish?

Depends, if you consider the colouration that results from your
grammophone
being microphonic to be the "Vinyl Magic" there's the one answer for ya.
But
I recall reading about people with costly tape-recorders who copied their
entire record collection - or had staff do it - to 38 cm/s tape so as to
be
able to listen to them without that colouration and that the default
advice
for recording an lp to tape was to do it without simultanously listening
to
it on loudspeaker.

What type of "microphonicity" are you talking about? The effects John Crabbe
described are going to be much more significant than any feed-back from the
speakers.

These is easily determined -- and I'm not going to do it. Someone else will
have to. Try this... Connect the phono preamp's output to a set of
headphones. Place the pickup on a non-spinning record. Then play something
else through the system (CD, tuner, whatever). How much sound do you hear
coming through the pickup? My guess is "little or none".

My Well-Tempered Turntable has a heavy base made of a synthetic concrete,
which in turn sits on an Arcici "Lead Balloon" stand. (When the designer
asked my opinion for name, saying he didn't like his first idea -- "Lead
Balloon" -- I suggested he keep it. It didn't seem to hurt sales.)

The LP is clamped to a thick plastic turntable, with a creamy lead filling.
I can imainge sound from the speakers vibrating the surface of the LP, but I
don't see this as being of significant amplitude.


If you want to hear how good vinyl is because silly things are not done in
mastering, then you HAVE to digitze it or to put the record player in a
nearby room so that the worst single cause of coloration on a good quality
setup is eliminated.

I respectfully disagree. My 'table is in the same room as the speakers, and
LPs and CDs sound almost alike.