[David Grant]

I recorded this same artist a while back in the same church without an
audience. The performance then was 1 singer + piano. I set up a XY cardiod
stereo pair at the stage edge, about 8ft from the singer because there was a
clear sound there. I set up another similar pair further back (3rd row of
seats, maybe 20ft) based on recommendations from this group.

The church is much too reverberant (not a great sounding room) to use the
far pair alone, and in the mixdown I ended up using the near pair almost
entirely and a touch of the far pair to add some ambience.

I'm being called back to record the same artist, except there are six other
singers who will, at some points, be on stage simultaneously (standing still
in a line). This time there will be an audience, and I'm told I can't have
any equipment in the audience section, but there is no objection to having a
single mic stand in front of the group, as long as the mics are low enough
to not obstruct the audience's view of the singers. There's no option for
suspending mics above from the roof or otherwise.

I just bought a couple omni capsuls for my AKG c480s, but I've never used
omni's before, just cardioid. I figure since I'm forced to record close to
the group that spaced omnis are a better choice since they will capture a
bit more room ambience... Due to inexperience I don't know HOW much more
ambience I'll get.

(Side note: I attended an opera recital at Glenn Gould Studio in Toronto the
other night, which was recorded. I noticed they had some permanent suspended
mic pairs above, but they also had a stage hand bring out what looked like a
spaced omni pair on a stand and put it fairly close to the group of
singers... this is where I got the idea)

I'd be interested in your comments on my reasoning, or suggestions for other
things to try given the restrictions.

Thanks,

Dave

[David Grant]

"David Grant" wrote in message
...
I recorded this same artist a while back in the same church without an
audience. The performance then was 1 singer + piano. I set up a XY cardiod
stereo pair at the stage edge, about 8ft from the singer because there was
a clear sound there. I set up another similar pair further back (3rd row of
seats, maybe 20ft) based on recommendations from this group.

The church is much too reverberant (not a great sounding room) to use the
far pair alone, and in the mixdown I ended up using the near pair almost
entirely and a touch of the far pair to add some ambience.

I'm being called back to record the same artist, except there are six
other singers who will, at some points, be on stage simultaneously
(standing still in a line). This time there will be an audience, and I'm
told I can't have any equipment in the audience section, but there is no
objection to having a single mic stand in front of the group, as long as
the mics are low enough to not obstruct the audience's view of the
singers. There's no option for suspending mics above from the roof or
otherwise.

I just bought a couple omni capsuls for my AKG c480s, but I've never used
omni's before, just cardioid. I figure since I'm forced to record close to
the group that spaced omnis are a better choice since they will capture a
bit more room ambience... Due to inexperience I don't know HOW much more
ambience I'll get.

(Side note: I attended an opera recital at Glenn Gould Studio in Toronto
the other night, which was recorded. I noticed they had some permanent
suspended mic pairs above, but they also had a stage hand bring out what
looked like a spaced omni pair on a stand and put it fairly close to the
group of singers... this is where I got the idea)

I'd be interested in your comments on my reasoning, or suggestions for
other things to try given the restrictions.

Thanks,

Dave

Why don't I try both omnis and cardiods and see which I prefer?

Forgot to mention monitoring. I don't have speakers on which to monitor when
placing mics, just headphones (which I find pretty close to useless) so I'm
doing this somewhat blind. Not ideal, I know.

[Frank Stearns]

"David Grant" writes:


I just bought a couple omni capsuls for my AKG c480s, but I've never used
omni's before, just cardioid. I figure since I'm forced to record close to
the group that spaced omnis are a better choice since they will capture a
bit more room ambience... Due to inexperience I don't know HOW much more
ambience I'll get.

I used to be mostly an M-S user, but have found my KM183s with diffraction spheres
(omnis with a small sphere slid over the business end to add a little directionality
in the HF; you can try your AKGs without them), diaphragms spaced at 50 cm and
splayed 100 degrees, to yield lush, full results, with remarkably good imaging
(Williams Curve spacing). Audience responses (applause) sounds fabulous as well. I
do try to get them fairly high, though, at least 8-10 feet above the highest sound
source (unless it's a low-ceiling room, then it gets a little trickier).

I also use spots, because I do a lot of mixed configurations in odd spaces, but in
your case the main pair might be all you need.

And yes, staying comfortably within the near field is the way to go with omnis. If
it's too dry you can sneak in just a touch of well-crafted reverb. BTW, the omnis
should be smoother in the top end and have way better response below 100 hz.

Is there any way you can try this in rehearsal? This configuration is generally
forgiving, but if you've never done this technique you probably want the sanity
check of trying it first.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio
--

[Carey Carlan]

"David Grant" wrote in
:

I recorded this same artist a while back in the same church without an
audience. The performance then was 1 singer + piano. I set up a XY
cardiod stereo pair at the stage edge, about 8ft from the singer
because there was a clear sound there. I set up another similar pair
further back (3rd row of seats, maybe 20ft) based on recommendations
from this group.

The church is much too reverberant (not a great sounding room) to use
the far pair alone, and in the mixdown I ended up using the near pair
almost entirely and a touch of the far pair to add some ambience.

I'm being called back to record the same artist, except there are six
other singers who will, at some points, be on stage simultaneously
(standing still in a line). This time there will be an audience, and
I'm told I can't have any equipment in the audience section, but there
is no objection to having a single mic stand in front of the group, as
long as the mics are low enough to not obstruct the audience's view of
the singers. There's no option for suspending mics above from the roof
or otherwise.

I just bought a couple omni capsuls for my AKG c480s, but I've never
used omni's before, just cardioid. I figure since I'm forced to record
close to the group that spaced omnis are a better choice since they
will capture a bit more room ambience... Due to inexperience I don't
know HOW much more ambience I'll get.

(Side note: I attended an opera recital at Glenn Gould Studio in
Toronto the other night, which was recorded. I noticed they had some
permanent suspended mic pairs above, but they also had a stage hand
bring out what looked like a spaced omni pair on a stand and put it
fairly close to the group of singers... this is where I got the idea)

I'd be interested in your comments on my reasoning, or suggestions for
other things to try given the restrictions.

Spaced omnis are dangerous because as the singers turn their heads left
and right and face one or the other microphone, the stereo image will
swing wildly left and right.

If the group is to sing as a group (i.e. standing together and facing
the same direction) spaced omnis will work, but the XY pair would
probably still work better.

If you used only a touch of the rear mics last time, I would suggest
moving your front XY pair back just a bit and using that as a single
pair or even adding (*gasp*) a touch of fake reverb.

Here's your first out-in-left-field suggestion (others, I'm sure will
add more). Using three stereo bars, make an H pattern and mount 4
microphones on the same stand: two in the standard XY pattern and
another two facing the rear of the hall in another XY pattern. I have
used this rear-facing-stereo-pair system successfully to gather room
sound when I couldn't set up in the rear. By keeping the primary source
mostly in the nulls and recording the reflection off the rear wall, the
rear pair will get a usable (but not the best) sound.

[David Grant]

Open... and it sounded pretty muddy in even the close pair.

Will be closed for this performance, as per the singers preference, and I'm
likely going to tape a couple pzms to the lid to use as a last resort incase
I run into the same problem (it's visually unobtrusive and I have nothing to
lose).

Being a pianist I would normally care a lot about the piano sound, but it
wasn't as bothersome in this context with the singers as the main act.

"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message
...

"David Grant" wrote in message
...
I recorded this same artist a while back in the same church without an
audience. The performance then was 1 singer + piano.

Was the piano recorded with lid closed or open?

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511

[Tim Perry]

"David Grant" wrote in message
...
I recorded this same artist a while back in the same church without an
audience. The performance then was 1 singer + piano. I set up a XY cardiod
stereo pair at the stage edge, about 8ft from the singer because there was
a
clear sound there. I set up another similar pair further back (3rd row of
seats, maybe 20ft) based on recommendations from this group.

The church is much too reverberant (not a great sounding room) to use the
far pair alone, and in the mixdown I ended up using the near pair almost
entirely and a touch of the far pair to add some ambience.

I'm being called back to record the same artist, except there are six
other
singers who will, at some points, be on stage simultaneously (standing
still
in a line). This time there will be an audience, and I'm told I can't have
any equipment in the audience section, but there is no objection to having
a
single mic stand in front of the group, as long as the mics are low enough
to not obstruct the audience's view of the singers. There's no option for
suspending mics above from the roof or otherwise.

I just bought a couple omni capsuls for my AKG c480s, but I've never used
omni's before, just cardioid. I figure since I'm forced to record close to
the group that spaced omnis are a better choice since they will capture a
bit more room ambience... Due to inexperience I don't know HOW much more
ambience I'll get.


A LOT!. Every cough, sneeze, whisper, and crying baby in the audience.

Forget the omni's and record the talent.

Just my opinion.... based in my experience.



(Side note: I attended an opera recital at Glenn Gould Studio in Toronto
the
other night, which was recorded. I noticed they had some permanent
suspended
mic pairs above, but they also had a stage hand bring out what looked like
a
spaced omni pair on a stand and put it fairly close to the group of
singers... this is where I got the idea)

I'd be interested in your comments on my reasoning, or suggestions for
other
things to try given the restrictions.

Thanks,

Dave

[Frank Stearns]

"Tim Perry" writes:

snips

I just bought a couple omni capsuls for my AKG c480s, but I've never used
omni's before, just cardioid. I figure since I'm forced to record close to
the group that spaced omnis are a better choice since they will capture a
bit more room ambience... Due to inexperience I don't know HOW much more
ambience I'll get.


A LOT!. Every cough, sneeze, whisper, and crying baby in the audience.

Forget the omni's and record the talent.

Just my opinion.... based in my experience.

I know what you mean, but.... If you get them in close enough and at the optimal
height in an A/B 50 cm configuration it's not bad. The sonics are so much better
than ORTF and other coincident techniques -- both in terms of image and feel, but
also in terms of LF extension and HF smoothness given that one is using omnis.

In terms of noise, I've found that the side edges of the ORTF pattern (and other
coincident techniques) are going to pickup a lot of noise as well, not to mention
stuff echoing in the hall. And it's only the really good mics that will hold their
patterns all that well anyway. (Check out polar plots... a given cardiode might well
be a lot less directional than you'd think at any given frequency, and that ragged
polar response contributes to that "tin can" or "through the sewer pipe" sound
that many mid-grade directional mics in a coincident configuration seem to deliver.)

The AB-50cm with omnis is something I *never* would have tried had I not had my
friendly competitor plunk a pair headphones on me during a symphony recording. I
was surprised, but started using it and started to like it, at least in the primary
venues I'm in around here.

The biggest problem I've found is that it's a little more trouble to time-align
spots that are way off to one side or the other. Still, on the whole, the overall
sound is so much better that it's worth the extra fiddling.

Just another opinion. Experiment a bit if you can.

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio
--

[Scott Dorsey]

Tim Perry wrote:
"David Grant" wrote in message
I just bought a couple omni capsuls for my AKG c480s, but I've never used
omni's before, just cardioid. I figure since I'm forced to record close to
the group that spaced omnis are a better choice since they will capture a
bit more room ambience... Due to inexperience I don't know HOW much more
ambience I'll get.


A LOT!. Every cough, sneeze, whisper, and crying baby in the audience.

Forget the omni's and record the talent.

Actually, one of the things I like about omnis is that you can move them
in so close that the audience noise is less of a problem. At least, I
find this to be the case with the Jecklin disc at a lot of live concerts.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[David Grant]

I know what you mean, but.... If you get them in close enough and at the
optimal
height in an A/B 50 cm configuration it's not bad.

Hmm. 50cm translates to a +/- 50 degree recording angle according to the
Stereophonic Zoom article. I imagine that being a little small and leaving a
hole in the middle. If I find I'm having to bring the mics closer together
to enlarge the recording angle, in your experience, am I too close to the
source?

Also, I need to get a longer stereo bar, but in the event I need to splay
the omnis to get the desired distance between capsuls is this a bad thing?
Theoretically shouldn't matter but omnis are directional in higher
frequencies as I understand it.

The sonics are so much better
than ORTF and other coincident techniques -- both in terms of image and
feel, but
also in terms of LF extension and HF smoothness given that one is using
omnis.

I've generally find my coincident and near coincident cardiod recordings in
these situations have a "stuffy" quality when used up close. Entirely
possible that this is due to chronic poor mic placement however.

[Frank Stearns]

"David Grant" writes:

I know what you mean, but.... If you get them in close enough and at the
optimal
height in an A/B 50 cm configuration it's not bad.

Hmm. 50cm translates to a +/- 50 degree recording angle according to the
Stereophonic Zoom article. I imagine that being a little small and leaving a

Don't know that article. Do you have a more specific citation?

hole in the middle. If I find I'm having to bring the mics closer together
to enlarge the recording angle, in your experience, am I too close to the
source?

Not sure, have to hear something. What I can tell you is that at least with the
diffraction spheres the KM183s in this configuration deliver the most eerily
accurate pin-point imaging I've ever heard, headphones or speakers. It's as wide or
narrow as you "see" the group at any given distance. Never had a hole-in-the-middle
issue, unless I set them up wrong.

Also, I need to get a longer stereo bar, but in the event I need to splay
the omnis to get the desired distance between capsuls is this a bad thing?

Not at all, in fact that probably helps for the reason (HF directivity) you cite.
The spheres do add an on-access rise of a few dB @ 10K, and also reduce rear energy
by 2 dB or so. The net effect is 4, maybe 4.5 dB. But that can be quite a bit, as
any mastering engineer will tell you.

I splay mine about 100 degrees (diaphragms @ 50 cm), and then point the on-axis
lines of the mics about 20-25 degrees *over the top* of the group.

Theoretically shouldn't matter but omnis are directional in higher
frequencies as I understand it.

Correct to a lesser or greater degree, with few exceptions.

The sonics are so much better
than ORTF and other coincident techniques -- both in terms of image and
feel, but
also in terms of LF extension and HF smoothness given that one is using
omnis.

I've generally find my coincident and near coincident cardiod recordings in
these situations have a "stuffy" quality when used up close. Entirely
possible that this is due to chronic poor mic placement however.

Yes, "stuffy" is a good word too. It's another apt description of some of the
affectations I've heard.

If you're stuck giving a TV feed as I am from time to time, it's also reassuring
with omnis that the TV guys can even lose a channel and not totally ruin things.
And, surprisingly, the ABs sound quite okay summed to mono. Not perfect, but way
better than you'd think. And, if the home stereo is screwed up, the omnis given you
some fault-tolerance there as well.

Hope that helps,

Frank Stearns
Mobile Audio

--

[David Grant]

Hmm. 50cm translates to a +/- 50 degree recording angle according to the
Stereophonic Zoom article. I imagine that being a little small and leaving
a

Don't know that article. Do you have a more specific citation?


http://www.microphone-data.com/pdfs/Stereo%20zoom.pdf (Page 7)

Thanks for your help

David

[Mark]

On Nov 4, 1:24*pm, "David Grant" wrote:
"David Grant" wrote in message

...





I recorded this same artist a while back in the same church without an
audience. The performance then was 1 singer + piano. I set up a XY cardiod
stereo pair at the stage edge, about 8ft from the singer because there was
a clear sound there. I set up another similar pair further back (3rd row of
seats, maybe 20ft) based on recommendations from this group.

The church is much too reverberant (not a great sounding room) to use the
far pair alone, and in the mixdown I ended up using the near pair almost
entirely and a touch of the far pair to add some ambience.

I'm being called back to record the same artist, except there are six
other singers who will, at some points, be on stage simultaneously
(standing still in a line). This time there will be an audience, and I'm
told I can't have any equipment in the audience section, but there is no
objection to having a single mic stand in front of the group, as long as
the mics are low enough to not obstruct the audience's view of the
singers. There's no option for suspending mics above from the roof or
otherwise.

I just bought a couple omni capsuls for my AKG c480s, but I've never used
omni's before, just cardioid. I figure since I'm forced to record close to
the group that spaced omnis are a better choice since they will capture a
bit more room ambience... Due to inexperience I don't know HOW much more
ambience I'll get.

(Side note: I attended an opera recital at Glenn Gould Studio in Toronto
the other night, which was recorded. I noticed they had some permanent
suspended mic pairs above, but they also had a stage hand bring out what
looked like a spaced omni pair on a stand and put it fairly close to the
group of singers... this is where I got the idea)

I'd be interested in your comments on my reasoning, or suggestions for
other things to try given the restrictions.

Thanks,

Dave

Why don't I try both omnis and cardiods and see which I prefer?

Forgot to mention monitoring. I don't have speakers on which to monitor when
placing mics, just headphones (which I find pretty close to useless) so I'm
doing this somewhat blind. Not ideal, I know.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you need a set of HIGH ISOLATION headphones.

Mark

[Tim Perry]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Tim Perry wrote:
"David Grant" wrote in message
I just bought a couple omni capsuls for my AKG c480s, but I've never
used
omni's before, just cardioid. I figure since I'm forced to record close
to
the group that spaced omnis are a better choice since they will capture
a
bit more room ambience... Due to inexperience I don't know HOW much
more
ambience I'll get.


A LOT!. Every cough, sneeze, whisper, and crying baby in the audience.

Forget the omni's and record the talent.

Actually, one of the things I like about omnis is that you can move them
in so close that the audience noise is less of a problem. At least, I
find this to be the case with the Jecklin disc at a lot of live concerts.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I was unfamilier with Jeklin disc (or disk) unitl i looked it up.

Have you tried replacing the omnis with cardoids and if so, with what
result?

[Scott Dorsey]

Tim Perry wrote:

I was unfamilier with Jeklin disc (or disk) unitl i looked it up.

It works very well.

Have you tried replacing the omnis with cardoids and if so, with what
result?

Why? That would defeat the whole purpose of the thing. The whole reason
it exists is to give some directional imaging with omnis. The omni with
a baffle is still going to be flatter off-axis than a cardioid. It gives
you hardly any amplitude difference between channels below 1 KHz, but
most of the imaging down there is from phase anyway.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."