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#1
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unusual request... or not?
Hello,
I am not sure if this is the right forum to post this, so please forgive me if it isn't, but here goes: As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects, which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. Most of the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am stumped by one. I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or a timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical track? This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments myself. I do have midi/ samplers at my fingertips, which have instrument libraries available, but without instument references as to what I need I find this a very tough task. As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not for long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific instruments used to make the mix. Thanks in advance, Erik |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not?
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:35:43 -0400, "Erik Washington"
wrote: I am not sure if this is the right forum to post this, so please forgive me if it isn't, but here goes: As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects, which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. Most of the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am stumped by one. I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or a timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical track? This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments myself. I do have midi/ samplers at my fingertips, which have instrument libraries available, but without instument references as to what I need I find this a very tough task. As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not for long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific instruments used to make the mix. Yes, this is a job for educated ears :-) |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not?
Erik Washington schreef:
As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not for long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific instruments used to make the mix. Sure, let's give it a try. Jos. -- Ardis Park Music www.ardispark.nl |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not?
Erik Washington wrote:
As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects, which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. Most of the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am stumped by one. I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or a timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical track? This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments myself. No, but you can ask a good conductor to give the track a listen. As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not for long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific instruments used to make the mix. Ask your local college music department. It would be a fun exercise for some students. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? FILE posted for analysis
Hello again,
Thanks for offers to check out this sound effect to tell me the instruments present within the mix. Here's the link to the file I posted. It's in MP3 format and I'll leave it up for a day or two: http://www.zshare.net/audio/20500853a44dbc14/ Now, here's a bit of background info I do have: it was created for the Star Trek TV Series in 1964 and I am told that it is an electronic hammond organ mixed with winds. No other info. I'd like to specifically find out what part of the mix uses the organ (I always thought it was the steady background), where the "winds" come into play and what type of winds, and what is used to create the variable tone part of the mix? Please ignore the footsteps, birds and other noises- I am interested in the tones themselves. And forgive me as it is heavily compressed. Thanks in advance for any information. Erik "Erik Washington" wrote in message ... Hello, I am not sure if this is the right forum to post this, so please forgive me if it isn't, but here goes: As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects, which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. Most of the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am stumped by one. I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or a timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical track? This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments myself. I do have midi/ samplers at my fingertips, which have instrument libraries available, but without instument references as to what I need I find this a very tough task. As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not for long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific instruments used to make the mix. Thanks in advance, Erik |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? FILE posted for analysis
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:35:05 -0400, Erik Washington wrote:
snip Now, here's a bit of background info I do have: it was created for the Star Trek TV Series in 1964 and I am told that it is an electronic hammond organ mixed with winds. No other info. I'd like to specifically find out what part of the mix uses the organ (I always thought it was the steady background), where the "winds" come into play and what type of winds, and what is used to create the variable tone part of the mix? Please ignore the footsteps, birds and other noises- I am interested in the tones themselves. And forgive me as it is heavily compressed. I had a go at making that background organ sound on my hammond. This is the nearest I got: http://www.zshare.net/audio/20502569a936d6ff/ This was a slow leslie, holding down a bunch of keys and playing with the draw bars. Thanks in advance for any information. Erik |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not?
It sounds like the transporter effect (or a variation thereof), mixed with
bird calls! I don't hear any winds. But I've always had trouble distinguishing wind instruments. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not?
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message . .. It sounds like the transporter effect (or a variation thereof), mixed with bird calls! What I seek are the tones only, try to ignore the bird calls, foot steps and of course noise. This is an abbreviated version used in several episodes later in the series. The full 28 second loop could be heard in several original 1966 episodes. The transporter is different and simpler. I created that some time ago using a Hammond clone and a pitch bender. It was just a combination of the Hammond tones and a separate pitch bending instrument. This effect though- the one I posted- is more complex. I believe a Hammond is present, but something is missing because I have never been able to recreate it very well. Perhaps several other wind instruments or a stringed instrument, which was the point of my post- to try and seek the exact or approximation of all the instruments present. I don't hear any winds. But I've always had trouble distinguishing wind instruments. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? FILE posted for analysis
"philicorda" wrote in message ... On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:35:05 -0400, Erik Washington wrote: snip Now, here's a bit of background info I do have: it was created for the Star Trek TV Series in 1964 and I am told that it is an electronic hammond organ mixed with winds. No other info. I'd like to specifically find out what part of the mix uses the organ (I always thought it was the steady background), where the "winds" come into play and what type of winds, and what is used to create the variable tone part of the mix? Please ignore the footsteps, birds and other noises- I am interested in the tones themselves. And forgive me as it is heavily compressed. I had a go at making that background organ sound on my hammond. This is the nearest I got: http://www.zshare.net/audio/20502569a936d6ff/ This was a slow leslie, holding down a bunch of keys and playing with the draw bars. Thanks. That's a start and is in fact about as far as I have gotten in the past, but something is still missing which is what I have been trying to figure out. If there are in fact winds or strings also present, which ones- and what makes the variable pitch? Thanks in advance for any information. Erik |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? COMPLETE file posted
Here is the complete loop, about 30 seconds, and without birds and foot
steps although it is noisy: http://www.zshare.net/audio/20509395ae9b4fcf/ Perhaps this will help better with any best educated guesses. Thanks again, Erik "Erik Washington" wrote in message ... Hello, I am not sure if this is the right forum to post this, so please forgive me if it isn't, but here goes: As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects, which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. Most of the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am stumped by one. I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or a timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical track? This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments myself. I do have midi/ samplers at my fingertips, which have instrument libraries available, but without instument references as to what I need I find this a very tough task. As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not for long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific instruments used to make the mix. Thanks in advance, Erik |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? FILE posted for analysis
Erik Washington schreef:
Hello again, Thanks for offers to check out this sound effect to tell me the instruments present within the mix. Here's the link to the file I posted. It's in MP3 format and I'll leave it up for a day or two: http://www.zshare.net/audio/20500853a44dbc14/ Just a guess: The high portamento sound sliding from g to f and back may have been done with a couple of violins played sul ponticello, trying to keep as close in pitch to one another as possible. Jos. -- Ardis Park Music www.ardispark.nl |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? FILE posted for analysis
"Jos Geluk" wrote in message .home.nl... Erik Washington schreef: Hello again, Thanks for offers to check out this sound effect to tell me the instruments present within the mix. Here's the link to the file I posted. It's in MP3 format and I'll leave it up for a day or two: http://www.zshare.net/audio/20500853a44dbc14/ Just a guess: The high portamento sound sliding from g to f and back may have been done with a couple of violins played sul ponticello, trying to keep as close in pitch to one another as possible. Thanks, Jos. Someone has suggested something similar to that in the past. Here's another link to what was used for the "transporter" effect, a simpler mix that I believe used a Hammond for the steady part and maybe the violin you suggested for the unsteady: http://www.zshare.net/audio/20529200549e7e86/ I was able to recreate this, but cheated a bit. Although I used the Hammond clone for the steady tones, I was never able to figure out the variable so separated and sampled the original separately. Do you think this might be a violin also? Thanks, Erik Jos. -- Ardis Park Music www.ardispark.nl |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? ONE SIMPLER MIX POSTED for comment
Here is a link to a simpler mix that was used for the Star Trek
"transporter" as well as an alien planet background in a few episodes: http://www.zshare.net/audio/20529200549e7e86/ I was able to recreate this some years ago using a Hammond clone for the steady tones, but I had to cheat and use the separated original instrument for the unsteady, variable tone. I believe this is very similar to the lower pitched, more complex mix I posted earlier except simpler. Jos suggests perhaps a violin used for the unsteady tone, so would appreciate any thoughts here. Thanks, Erik "Erik Washington" wrote in message ... Hello, I am not sure if this is the right forum to post this, so please forgive me if it isn't, but here goes: As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects, which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. Most of the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am stumped by one. I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or a timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical track? This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments myself. I do have midi/ samplers at my fingertips, which have instrument libraries available, but without instument references as to what I need I find this a very tough task. As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not for long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific instruments used to make the mix. Thanks in advance, Erik |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? ONE SIMPLER MIX POSTED for comment
On Oct 14, 9:25*am, "Erik Washington" wrote:
Here is a link to a simpler mix that was used for the Star Trek "transporter" as well as an alien planet background in a few episodes: http://www.zshare.net/audio/20529200549e7e86/ I was able to recreate this some years ago using a Hammond clone for the steady tones, but I had to cheat and use the separated original instrument for the unsteady, variable tone. I believe this is very similar to the lower pitched, more complex mix I posted earlier except simpler. *Jos suggests perhaps a violin used for the unsteady tone, so would appreciate any thoughts here. Thanks, Erik "Erik Washington" wrote in message ... Hello, I am not sure if this is the right forum to post this, so please forgive me if it isn't, but here goes: As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects, which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. *Most of the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am stumped by one. * I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or a timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical track? *This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments myself. I do have midi/ samplers at my fingertips, which have instrument libraries available, but without instument references as to what I need I find this a very tough task. As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not for long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific instruments used to make the mix. Thanks in advance, Erik- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - at the risk of stating the obvious... an important part of the sound will be the many parameters of the Reverb and the EQ on the dry and the EQ on the wet. I'm happy to say, before I read the full post, I listened to the clip and said to myself, that sounds like something I heard on Star Trek. So if you have these clean copies, why do you want to "reproduce" them from scratch? Mark |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? FILE posted for analysis
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:59:29 -0400, Erik Washington wrote:
snip Thanks. That's a start and is in fact about as far as I have gotten in the past, but something is still missing which is what I have been trying to figure out. If there are in fact winds or strings also present, which ones- and what makes the variable pitch? Yes, there is something metallic and harmonic about the background sound that is not there in just the organ. It sounds almost like a gong, played with a bow and then slowed down. I had an idea it could be a bode frequency shifter (moog made one a couple of years before the first Star Trek series.). This is the sound of that same organ through the bode, both up and down shift with a little reverb: http://www.zshare.net/audio/205298021bb5823d/ Still not right, as it sounds too discordant. The modulation sounds kinda similar though. It could just be a case of getting the right notes, drawbars and bode shift, or they may have done it in a completely different way. Thanks in advance for any information. Erik |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? ONE SIMPLER MIX POSTED for comment
"Mark" wrote in message ... "So if you have these clean copies, why do you want to "reproduce" them from scratch? Mark" Good question as I have been asked that many times. First of all, I am an audiofile as far as these effects are concerned. The copies sound "clean" at initial listen, but try to listen on a hi-fi system and you'll find otherwise (I'm talking about the lower sounds I posted and not the high transporter sound as the latter is ok). The one that comes out best is actually the copy with birds/ foot steps in the backround as it was recorded quite a bit higher than the noise level.... but then there is the problem of the noise elements on the track. I find them a challenge to recreate because they were made before modern synths (the closest instrument to the modern synth in 1964 was the Hammond), so either the Hammond, musical instruments, or both was used for their creation. I've never heard anything like them before... or since. All modern Star Trek series used synths which didn't have the same sound. Hope that helps with the answer, Erik |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? FILE posted for analysis
"philicorda" wrote in message ... On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:59:29 -0400, Erik Washington wrote: snip Thanks. That's a start and is in fact about as far as I have gotten in the past, but something is still missing which is what I have been trying to figure out. If there are in fact winds or strings also present, which ones- and what makes the variable pitch? Yes, there is something metallic and harmonic about the background sound that is not there in just the organ. It sounds almost like a gong, played with a bow and then slowed down. I had an idea it could be a bode frequency shifter (moog made one a couple of years before the first Star Trek series.). This is the sound of that same organ through the bode, both up and down shift with a little reverb: http://www.zshare.net/audio/205298021bb5823d/ Still not right, as it sounds too discordant. The modulation sounds kinda similar though. It could just be a case of getting the right notes, drawbars and bode shift, or they may have done it in a completely different way. You might be on to something there, especially in regards to the variable pitch as the tone you produced is similar. I've always suspected some sort of modulation being used, but could never confirm. Did you use a plug-in for this or a standalone program? Another bit of information I once obtained was that the Hammond organ used was "specially modified" so maybe it used the shifter somehow. When I once looked at the spectrum of the track in a program called "Renovator", I saw telltale signs of an organ being used for the steady tones (very similar harmonics in the spectrum), but the unsteady tone did not have the same harmonics so I always thought its origin was different from the Hammond. Erik Thanks in advance for any information. Erik |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? FILE posted for analysis
On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:45:27 -0400, Erik Washington wrote:
snip You might be on to something there, especially in regards to the variable pitch as the tone you produced is similar. I've always suspected some sort of modulation being used, but could never confirm. Did you use a plug-in for this or a standalone program? The plugin was the Steve Harris Bode frequency shifter. The modulation is from the pitch change from the leslie rotor being multiplied by the frequency shifter. I didn't fiddle with the shift amount in real time. Another bit of information I once obtained was that the Hammond organ used was "specially modified" so maybe it used the shifter somehow. You can do a lot with a hammond, especially if you think of it as an additive synth. When I once looked at the spectrum of the track in a program called "Renovator", I saw telltale signs of an organ being used for the steady tones (very similar harmonics in the spectrum), but the unsteady tone did not have the same harmonics so I always thought its origin was different from the Hammond. I was trying to get just the organ sound. I agree the variable pitch is something else too, violin like others have said, or a test tone oscillator being swept by hand perhaps. |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not? FILE posted for analysis
Erik Washington schreef:
Thanks, Jos. Someone has suggested something similar to that in the past. Here's another link to what was used for the "transporter" effect, a simpler mix that I believe used a Hammond for the steady part and maybe the violin you suggested for the unsteady: http://www.zshare.net/audio/20529200549e7e86/ I was able to recreate this, but cheated a bit. Although I used the Hammond clone for the steady tones, I was never able to figure out the variable so separated and sampled the original separately. Do you think this might be a violin also? Not sure about the first part, these sound like a clipped recording of flutes, but around 0:12 there is a high note going from c# to d# and back that may very well be a couple of violins. Again, the effect is that they all slide from one note to the next but each with a slightly different pitch. I don't think these are played "sul ponticello" this time, but it is hard to tell. Jos. -- Ardis Park Music www.ardispark.nl |
#20
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unusual request... or not?
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:35:43 -0700, Erik Washington wrote
(in article ): As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects, which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. ------------------------------snip------------------------------ If you're looking for STAR TREK sound effects, just get this CD: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Effects-Original- Soundtrack/dp/B000001P04/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1224323570&sr=1-3 Most of the famous ones are on there already. I've heard them used over the past 20 years in countless cartoons and other productions, and I don't think sound effects per se can be copyrighted, at least not from that era. Maybe the best solution is to get the CD, listen to the effects, and figure out a way to duplicate the sound and improve it -- even in stereo or multitrack. --MFW |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not?
"Marc Wielage" wrote in message .com... On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:35:43 -0700, Erik Washington wrote (in article ): If you're looking for STAR TREK sound effects, just get this CD: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Effects-Original- Soundtrack/dp/B000001P04/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1224323570&sr=1-3 Most of the famous ones are on there already. The key word is "most". Certainly not all of them are on there and not the two lower tone effects I posted (#7 on the CD is the same one, but with annoying wind and rumbles- cannot be filtered out) , although the transporter effect I posted was from that CD (I've owned the CD since it first came out). I've heard them used over the past 20 years in countless cartoons and other productions, and I don't think sound effects per se can be copyrighted, at least not from that era. Yes, they have been used in a great many shows. Maybe the best solution is to get the CD, listen to the effects, and figure out a way to duplicate the sound and improve it -- even in stereo or multitrack. Been there, done that. One of the problems is that some of the CD effects are not even as good as the effect lifted from the VHS tapes. This is rare of course, but for the alien planet effects I posted, they did not come from the CD. It was a shame that the original alien planet surface effect was not included (like the one I posted), and I'm not sure it was available at the time the CD was made. One time someone suggested trying to find the effects sound stripe from a particular episode where the alien planet effect was recorded at a higher level. I was never successful (studios charge big $$ no matter what the purpose) but when the DVD's came out, the effects were often on a separate track from the music. However, the voices on the Dolby Digital channels were often on the same track as the effects, so the effort was poor at best. And the final conclusion was that only one episode ever had the effect in semi-hi fidelity, and that was the one I posted. It still had footsteps and birds, but sounds good on a hi fi system assuming the highs are cut back a bit. One of the problems I've faced is treatment of the original sound. Many of the sounds on the CD and throughout the series were treated to change their nature completely, and the alien planet effects were no exception. Even the modified Hammond B-3 they used at the time was modified somehow to add some sort of tone to the alien planet effects. So the final result may have been arrived at through a completely different way than how it sounds. I think the transporter effect in the 1970's ST: The Motion Picture was derived from the alien planet effect used in the series. The tones have the same character and are even played to different pitches. It's obvious that the instrument they had was some sort of early synth or pre-synth such as the Hammond. Erik --MFW |
#22
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unusual request... or not?
Erik Washington wrote:
[quotig someone] I've heard them used over the past 20 years in countless cartoons and other productions, and I don't think sound effects per se can be copyrighted, at least not from that era. You did have some weird concept of copyright ... basically to protect the rights of the rich, but not of the poor ... some years ago. But you also did sign the Vienna convention, so now - over your way too, providing the convention made it to implemenation - a "work" is protected when created. All your problems with mimicking those sound effects surely makes the point that they ARE a work in a most obvious manner and in as much as the show was copyrighted that copyright too applies to all parts of it. Yes, they have been used in a great many shows. Maybe the best solution is to get the CD, listen to the effects, and figure out a way to duplicate the sound and improve it -- even in stereo or multitrack. Been there, done that. One of the problems is that some of the CD effects are not even as good as the effect lifted from the VHS tapes. Point made by yourself. As for the CD it probably has some copyright wording on it too, even in case it is a pay once, use multiple times wordings that come with audio that is sold for production use. I think the transporter effect in the 1970's ST: The Motion Picture was derived from the alien planet effect used in the series. The tones have the same character and are even played to different pitches. It's obvious that the instrument they had was some sort of early synth or pre-synth such as the Hammond. You even void your own viewpoint by saying that it was played by a musician on a musical instrument, it would then obviously be within the narrower concept "music" by any definition I know of. Erik Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#23
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unusual request... or not?
On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 06:36:42 -0700, Erik Washington wrote
(in article ): One time someone suggested trying to find the effects sound stripe from a particular episode where the alien planet effect was recorded at a higher level. I was never successful (studios charge big $$ no matter what the purpose) but when the DVD's came out, the effects were often on a separate track from the music. ------------------------------snip------------------------------ At least I named the show you seemed to be trying very hard not to mention. I seem to recall that for about the first 30 episodes of the 1960s STAR TREK series, the original 3-track DME mag masters were lost in a studio fire in October of 1983, so all that remains is a comp mono mix. Getting the separate sound elements would be tough for these shows, except when a foreign M&E track might exist. Even then, you're at the mercy of the mix, since the individual effects will never be totally in the clear. Find a good Hollywood effects editor, and I bet he or she could get you what you want -- for a price. I know good sound effects editors who have upwards of 10TB' worth of drives with effects, both library FX, newly-recorded sounds, and foley effects. I'd start with Sound Dogs: http://www.sounddogs.com/ (877) 315-3647 Contact them, tell them what you want, and maybe they can find it. It'd be a helluva lot easier than trying to recreate what was done forty years ago. BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these effects -- or new versions of them -- have already been created for the new J.J. Abrams STAR TREK feature. I bet they're sitting on a Pro Tools drive right now. It's just a question of finding the right person and making a deal. Note that there's always the alternative of creating a new, original sound from scratch, rather than imitate what's been done before. That takes skill and talent, but ultimately I think that can be more rewarding than just borrowing somebody else's work. --MFW |
#24
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unusual request... or not?
Marc Wielage wrote:
What I say is still true: I know several (very busy) sound effects editors and mixers here in LA, and sound effects from various studios -- particularly those from 40 years ago -- are routinely used on many films and shows without payment or credit. I've heard "Star Trek" doors used as recently as last year on FAMILY GUY, for example. Warner Bros.' effects show up in used car commercials. They're all over the place, 24 hours a day. There was a time -- generally, during the 1960s -- where you'd never hear Warner Bros. sound effects in a Hanna-Barbera show, or a Disney effect in a Filmmation show. I think it was more question of maintaining a specific style than anything else. But by the 1980s, everybody in the industry had copies of everybody else's libraries, and you began to hear library sound effects in every show on television. I think I allowed for the existence of libraries, when you purchase those you pay a one time fee for all copyright, they are not copyright free and you may only use them as licensed. I remember having a lengthy conversation around 1985 with the head sound effects editor for Ruby-Spears (for whom I worked on a half-dozen different animated series during that time), and he explained why he was able to use sound effects from Disney, MGM, Warner Bros., Hanna-Barbera, and several other studios. Some of these effects were so old, they literally came from optical tracks from decades earlier (and sounded like it, too). This is where the weird concept comes in, US practice was that copyright should be registred to exist. You may disagree with the morality, but legally speaking, there's no protection for sound effects. And it is absolutely a very common practice in the industry today. It would be a tough day in court if they all steal from one another .... but the mechanical copyright on a recording is just that. Replicating an effect would be a tougher call. Also you do not make it clear that they have NOT agreed to share libraries, with your comment If you use current commercial sound effects libraries, such as the ones marketed by Hollywood Edge in LA or Sound Ideas in Toronto, you can use them at will in any production, but you can't market them as self-contained sound effects for download or CD. In other words, you can use them within a production mix, but not sold individually _as sound effects_ per se. That's part of the user agreement when you buy the CD. in mind I am inclined to assume that just that is what they did. If they just always stole each others sound effects such an agreement could be said to exist via common law. Read this for more info: http://sound-ideas.com/licenses.html BTW, the copyright conventions you cite are actually from Berne and Geneva, not from Vienna: Thanks. Early morning typing ... however you have not persuasively made the point that I was in error, your supplementations are however very welcome, thank you for following up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...ght_Convention http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_C..._of_Literary_a nd_Artistic_Works Kind regards Peter Larsen |
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unusual request... or not?
I know several (very busy) sound effects editors and mixers here
in LA, and sound effects from various studios -- particularly those from 40 years ago -- are routinely used on many films and shows without payment or credit. I've noticed that "The Venture Bros." uses many "Star Trek" effects, and wondered whether they were licensed, or just lifted. |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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unusual request... or not?
"Marc Wielage" wrote in message .com... On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 06:36:42 -0700, Erik Washington wrote (in article ): One time someone suggested trying to find the effects sound stripe from a particular episode where the alien planet effect was recorded at a higher level. I was never successful (studios charge big $$ no matter what the purpose) but when the DVD's came out, the effects were often on a separate track from the music. ------------------------------snip------------------------------ At least I named the show you seemed to be trying very hard not to mention. No, I mentioned it early on, either in this post or the one that followed it. I seem to recall that for about the first 30 episodes of the 1960s STAR TREK series, the original 3-track DME mag masters were lost in a studio fire in October of 1983, so all that remains is a comp mono mix. Yes, I recall the fire and was aware of the DME masters, but I didn't know there was a link between the two. Perhaps that's been the primary source of difficulty trying to find anything. Getting the separate sound elements would be tough for these shows, except when a foreign M&E track might exist. Even then, you're at the mercy of the mix, since the individual effects will never be totally in the clear. The DVD's (at least the early ones I have) were recorded in Doby Digital and 6 channels are available. There are a few episodes were the complete loop is available on one of the channels, but the compression is so high that the overall quality is poor and it's very noisy because it was recorded at close to the background noise level. Find a good Hollywood effects editor, and I bet he or she could get you what you want -- for a price. I know good sound effects editors who have upwards of 10TB' worth of drives with effects, both library FX, newly-recorded sounds, and foley effects. I'd start with Sound Dogs: http://www.sounddogs.com/ (877) 315-3647 Contact them, tell them what you want, and maybe they can find it. It'd be a helluva lot easier than trying to recreate what was done forty years ago. I've never been successful going this route, but thanks for the info. BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these effects -- or new versions of them -- have already been created for the new J.J. Abrams STAR TREK feature. I bet they're sitting on a Pro Tools drive right now. It's just a question of finding the right person and making a deal. To be honest, I doubt the new feature film was have any of them. After the original producer (Gene Roddenberry) died, there seemed to be a shift further away from original series elements to the point where even the last series (Enterprise) was almost nothing like the original at all. This was not only in visuals and effects, but sounds as well. Note that there's always the alternative of creating a new, original sound from scratch, rather than imitate what's been done before. That takes skill and talent, but ultimately I think that can be more rewarding than just borrowing somebody else's work. The key has been finding the right elements to start with. In many cases, organic sources were used to create the original effects due to lack of synths and producer Roddenberry wanted the effects to sound more realistic. So it has been a big challenge to track down an exotic bird, for example, that was looped and reverbed for the main viewing screen. Synths can come somewhat close, but not quite there. Erik --MFW |
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