[Ron Capik]

Hi all,

Much to my surprise, after ~2 years of flawless performance, one
of my DEQ 2496 crashed in the middle of a show. Being well out
of warranty, I popped the lid. I found the glue gun goop (they use to
hold everything in place) overflowed onto a chip, and that chip
overheated. Once cool the unit seemed to work, so I cut the goop
away, added a heatsink to the chip and all seems well for now.
[ I also ordered a backup/replacement unit, just in case... ]

Anyway, I'm wondering if folks have noted any similar (or other)
non-bathtub curve failures with these units?

For the most part these boxes seem rock solid, other than
the few out of the box failures.

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?


Later...

Ron Capik
--

[Mike Dobony]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:22:18 GMT, Ron Capik wrote:

Hi all,

Much to my surprise, after ~2 years of flawless performance, one
of my DEQ 2496 crashed in the middle of a show. Being well out
of warranty, I popped the lid. I found the glue gun goop (they use to
hold everything in place) overflowed onto a chip, and that chip
overheated. Once cool the unit seemed to work, so I cut the goop
away, added a heatsink to the chip and all seems well for now.
[ I also ordered a backup/replacement unit, just in case... ]

Anyway, I'm wondering if folks have noted any similar (or other)
non-bathtub curve failures with these units?

For the most part these boxes seem rock solid, other than
the few out of the box failures.

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?


Later...

Ron Capik

I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling through
the features or kept clicking.

[Ron Capik]

Mike Dobony wrote:

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:22:18 GMT, Ron Capik wrote:

Hi all,

Much to my surprise, after ~2 years of flawless performance, one
of my DEQ 2496 crashed in the middle of a show. Being well out
of warranty, I popped the lid. I found the glue gun goop (they use to
hold everything in place) overflowed onto a chip, and that chip
overheated. Once cool the unit seemed to work, so I cut the goop
away, added a heatsink to the chip and all seems well for now.
[ I also ordered a backup/replacement unit, just in case... ]

Anyway, I'm wondering if folks have noted any similar (or other)
non-bathtub curve failures with these units?

For the most part these boxes seem rock solid, other than
the few out of the box failures.

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?


Later...

Ron Capik

I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling through
the features or kept clicking.

Yeah, but out of the box failures fit the bathtub curve.


Later...

Ron Capik
--

[DeeAa[_3_]]

On 12 syys, 03:22, Ron Capik wrote:
Hi all,

Much to my surprise, after ~2 years of flawless performance, one
of my DEQ 2496 crashed in the middle of a show. Being well out
of warranty, I popped the lid. I found the glue gun goop (they use to
hold everything in place) overflowed onto a chip, and that chip
overheated. Once cool the unit seemed to work, so I cut the goop
away, *added a heatsink to the chip and all seems well for now.
[ I also ordered a backup/replacement unit, just in case... ]

Anyway, I'm wondering if folks have noted any similar (or other)
non-bathtub curve failures with these units?

For the most part these boxes seem rock solid, other than
the few out of the box failures.

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Later...

I'm surprised it's worked 4 you so far...I've had maybe a dozen or
more Behringer products, mixers, effects, preamps, etc. and I have yet
to find one that would actually work perfectly or I could call a good
product. I'm gonna buy a pair of their mics though soon, I hear they
work OK.

But in general, what would you expect from the cheapest shaite there
is...although there is worse stuff around, like Alto etc...but
Behringer really seems to be bottom of the barrel in my experience.
I'd take a Samson or most anything any time over Behri. In best cases
I've broken something on a behri within the first hours of operation,
like the Hellbaby wah adjustment knob, but then again...they're so
cheap it ain't even worth the trouble of driving back to the store for
replacement one.

But they be cheap indeed...I used their 16ch mixers for my band for 3
years; just buy a new desk every year, toss the old one in the bin and
don't try to get a very noiseless recording via them and they worked
fine. Then got a Mackie and it was like from another planet in all
respects.

Cheers,

Dee

[Eeyore]

Ron Capik wrote:

Hi all,

Much to my surprise, after ~2 years of flawless performance, one
of my DEQ 2496 crashed in the middle of a show. Being well out
of warranty, I popped the lid. I found the glue gun goop (they use to
hold everything in place) overflowed onto a chip, and that chip
overheated. Once cool the unit seemed to work, so I cut the goop
away, added a heatsink to the chip and all seems well for now.
[ I also ordered a backup/replacement unit, just in case... ]

Anyway, I'm wondering if folks have noted any similar (or other)
non-bathtub curve failures with these units?

For the most part these boxes seem rock solid, other than
the few out of the box failures.

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip heatsink.
What was that chip btw if you remember ?

Graham

[Eeyore]

DeeAa wrote:

Ron Capik wrote:

Much to my surprise, after ~2 years of flawless performance, one
of my DEQ 2496 crashed in the middle of a show. Being well out
of warranty, I popped the lid. I found the glue gun goop (they use to
hold everything in place) overflowed onto a chip, and that chip
overheated. Once cool the unit seemed to work, so I cut the goop
away, added a heatsink to the chip and all seems well for now.
[ I also ordered a backup/replacement unit, just in case... ]

Anyway, I'm wondering if folks have noted any similar (or other)
non-bathtub curve failures with these units?

For the most part these boxes seem rock solid, other than
the few out of the box failures.

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Later...

I'm surprised it's worked 4 you so far...I've had maybe a dozen or
more Behringer products, mixers, effects, preamps, etc. and I have yet
to find one that would actually work perfectly or I could call a good
product. I'm gonna buy a pair of their mics though soon, I hear they
work OK.

But in general, what would you expect from the cheapest shaite there
is...although there is worse stuff around, like Alto etc...but
Behringer really seems to be bottom of the barrel in my experience.
I'd take a Samson or most anything any time over Behri. In best cases
I've broken something on a behri within the first hours of operation,
like the Hellbaby wah adjustment knob, but then again...they're so
cheap it ain't even worth the trouble of driving back to the store for
replacement one.

But they be cheap indeed...I used their 16ch mixers for my band for 3
years; just buy a new desk every year, toss the old one in the bin and
don't try to get a very noiseless recording via them and they worked
fine. Then got a Mackie and it was like from another planet in all
respects.

Yes, I've seen Behringer kit 'pack up' for no good reason. An active
crossover FFS. How more lightly stressed can a piece of kit be ?

OTOH they make one of the best (really good sounding) low cost compressor
limiters money can buy. And it han't gone wrong yet !

Odd.

Are you in Europe. Do you ship your gear around a lot ? It could be a
defect caused by lead-free solder. It doesn't like vibration or low temps
stored in the truck overnight.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Ron Capik wrote:

Mike Dobony wrote:

I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling through
the features or kept clicking.

Yeah, but out of the box failures fit the bathtub curve.

Not actually quite true. After say 5 hours power-on then yes. But not out of the
box.

Graham

[DeeAa[_2_]]

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...
Yes, I've seen Behringer kit 'pack up' for no good reason. An active
crossover FFS. How more lightly stressed can a piece of kit be ?

OTOH they make one of the best (really good sounding) low cost compressor
limiters money can buy. And it han't gone wrong yet !

Well that's quite true...I've a couple of age old Composer series comps and
while they both have lost a few leds and knobs or something, they both still
work very well actually. Aside from that they do color the sound a little
even when off.

Odd.

Are you in Europe. Do you ship your gear around a lot ? It could be a
defect caused by lead-free solder. It doesn't like vibration or low temps
stored in the truck overnight.

That's the worst---gear in a van; brought in hot from use, driven around in
subzero temps, usually left overnight...what can u do. For a few years we
hauled all our PA and even guitars in a fiberglass covered small trailer
behind an old Ford Escort - five guys too! Fun...and hell for gear...when
they spent like 8 hours in down to -30 degrees in winter and were brought in
a warm bar where the gig was...well it was wise not to just crack the guitar
cases wide open all at once...

Cheers,

Dee

[Ron Capik]

Eeyore wrote:

Ron Capik wrote:

Mike Dobony wrote:

I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling through
the features or kept clicking.

Yeah, but out of the box failures fit the bathtub curve.

Not actually quite true. After say 5 hours power-on then yes. But not out of the
box.

Graham

OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a power
up test.


Later...

Ron Capik
--

[Ron Capik]

Eeyore wrote:

Ron Capik wrote:

...snip...

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip heatsink.
What was that chip btw if you remember ?

Graham

I couldn't get all the goop off to read it, but it was one of the
large three terminal devices on the processor board. It was
running ~40 F hotter than the rest of the chips before modification.



Later...

Ron Capik
--

[Eeyore]

Ron Capik wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Ron Capik wrote:
Mike Dobony wrote:

I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling through
the features or kept clicking.

Yeah, but out of the box failures fit the bathtub curve.

Not actually quite true. After say 5 hours power-on then yes. But not out of the
box.

OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a power
up test.

You can be sure (I would hope) they have. If they ship them unchecked it's a disgrace
beyond belief..

Graham

[Eeyore]

Ron Capik wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Ron Capik wrote:

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip heatsink.
What was that chip btw if you remember ?

I couldn't get all the goop off to read it, but it was one of the
large three terminal devices on the processor board. It was
running ~40 F hotter than the rest of the chips before modification.

Sounds like a voltage regulator.

There's no damn excuse for extended power-on testing. I assume an ambient
temp of 40C.

And I've seen what can result if you're not careful.

Graham

[Scott Dorsey]

Ron Capik wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

Ron Capik wrote:

...snip...

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip heatsink.
What was that chip btw if you remember ?

Graham

I couldn't get all the goop off to read it, but it was one of the
large three terminal devices on the processor board. It was
running ~40 F hotter than the rest of the chips before modification.

It's a regulator chip. It's running hot because something downstream
of it is pulling way too much current. Look for a decoupling capacitor
that also feels hot.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ron Capik]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Ron Capik wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

Ron Capik wrote:

...snip...

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip heatsink.
What was that chip btw if you remember ?

Graham

I couldn't get all the goop off to read it, but it was one of the
large three terminal devices on the processor board. It was
running ~40 F hotter than the rest of the chips before modification.

It's a regulator chip. It's running hot because something downstream
of it is pulling way too much current. Look for a decoupling capacitor
that also feels hot.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

I had the box closed up, but popped it back open and checked.
None of the caps are warm. I pulled the heat sink off and, with
all the glue gun goop off, the chip is running at about the same
temp as the regulator next to it. Being as it's been stressed so
much I'm going to put the heat sink back on.
Thanks for the suggestion, it was worth the second look.


Later...

Ron Capik
--

[Eeyore]

DeeAa wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

Yes, I've seen Behringer kit 'pack up' for no good reason. An active
crossover FFS. How more lightly stressed can a piece of kit be ?

OTOH they make one of the best (really good sounding) low cost compressor
limiters money can buy. And it han't gone wrong yet !

Well that's quite true...I've a couple of age old Composer series comps and
while they both have lost a few leds and knobs or something, they both still
work very well actually. Aside from that they do color the sound a little
even when off.

Odd.

Are you in Europe. Do you ship your gear around a lot ? It could be a
defect caused by lead-free solder. It doesn't like vibration or low temps
stored in the truck overnight.

That's the worst---gear in a van; brought in hot from use, driven around in
subzero temps, usually left overnight...what can u do. For a few years we
hauled all our PA and even guitars in a fiberglass covered small trailer
behind an old Ford Escort - five guys too! Fun...and hell for gear...when
they spent like 8 hours in down to -30 degrees in winter and were brought in
a warm bar where the gig was...well it was wise not to just crack the guitar
cases wide open all at once...

So does it say Pb free ? Almost certainly that'll be what killed it.

Lead was originally added to solder to prevent such problems but what do
politicians know ?

Read up on 'tin pest'. That'll make you bring your gear indoors !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_pest
An equipment destroyer for anyone who has to store equipment over night even in
just cold temperatures. As warm as below 13C.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Eeyore wrote:

Ron Capik wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Ron Capik wrote:

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Sloppy assembly. You're probably OK. Nice idea with the chip heatsink.
What was that chip btw if you remember ?

I couldn't get all the goop off to read it, but it was one of the
large three terminal devices on the processor board. It was
running ~40 F hotter than the rest of the chips before modification.

Sounds like a voltage regulator.

Correction.


There's no damn excuse for *not having* extended power-on testing. I assume
an ambient
temp of 40C.

And I've seen what can result if you're not careful.

Graham

[Phildo]

"Ron Capik" wrote in message
...
I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling
through
the features or kept clicking.

Yeah, but out of the box failures fit the bathtub curve.

Not actually quite true. After say 5 hours power-on then yes. But not out
of the
box.

OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a
power
up test.

Wouldn't matter if they did. Who knows what the unit has been through
between manufacture/QC and the user plugging it in. Truck driver could have
gone over some speedhumps too fast, truck may have gone through a very cold
area, the end user may have dropped it before putting it in the rack etc
etc.

Phildo

[Eeyore]

Phildo wrote:

"Ron Capik" wrote

I had one remanufactured one fail out of the box. It kept cycling
through the features or kept clicking.

Yeah, but out of the box failures fit the bathtub curve.

Not actually quite true. After say 5 hours power-on then yes. But not out
of the box.

OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a
power up test.

Wouldn't matter if they did. Who knows what the unit has been through
between manufacture/QC and the user plugging it in. Truck driver could have
gone over some speedhumps too fast, truck may have gone through a very cold
area, the end user may have dropped it before putting it in the rack etc
etc.

None of which have the remotest connection to the the bathtub curve.

Graham

[Jay Ts]

Ron Capik wrote:
Ron Capik wrote:

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check for
excess goop... ?

I would. Especially after reading all the other stories of
Behringer equipment posted just within the past few days here.
I'd want to check out the circuit board for any obvious problems,
and make sure all the internal parts are screwed or soldered in securely.

I had the box closed up, but popped it back open and checked. None of
the caps are warm. I pulled the heat sink off and, with all the glue gun
goop off, the chip is running at about the same temp as the regulator
next to it. Being as it's been stressed so much I'm going to put the
heat sink back on.

Assuming it is a 78xx or 79xx type of voltage regulator, don't
worry too much about it. I'd replace the heat sink (remember to
add fresh thermal paste) and forget about it. It's possible to break
them, and I've popped a few on mis-wired breadboarded circuits.
But generally, they are tough devices, and you probably just did
a kind of burn-in test on it.

As for the original problem, applying thermal insulation on top
of a heat sink isn't exactly a good idea. And no wonder it
heated up so much.

At this point I'm snickering because I'd asked on another thread
about rackmount power amps, and the Behringer A500 was mentioned.
From their web page for the product:

| To assure years of trouble-free operation, we only use the
| ultra-reliable Toshiba or Fairchild high-power transistors
| that are known for their rock-solid reputation.

But maybe not after being covered with goo!

Jay Ts
--
To contact me, use this web page:
http://www.jayts.com/contact.php

[Jason Lavoie]

On Sep 11, 8:22*pm, Ron Capik wrote:
Hi all,

Much to my surprise, after ~2 years of flawless performance, one
of my DEQ 2496 crashed in the middle of a show. Being well out
of warranty, I popped the lid. I found the glue gun goop (they use to
hold everything in place) overflowed onto a chip, and that chip
overheated. Once cool the unit seemed to work, so I cut the goop
away, *added a heatsink to the chip and all seems well for now.
[ I also ordered a backup/replacement unit, just in case... ]

Anyway, I'm wondering if folks have noted any similar (or other)
non-bathtub curve failures with these units?

For the most part these boxes seem rock solid, other than
the few out of the box failures.

Wondering if I should pop the lid on all my boxes and check
for excess goop... ?

Later...

Ron Capik
--

I'm not at all surprised.. I've installed about 40 of them, and at
least 1/4 of those failed between the 1.5-2.5 year mark.
looking back, your solution may well be the most appropriate, as my
units were 99% fixed installs and didn't suffer any vibration. the
next culprit is heat.

anyway. they are what they are.. just because they're a really cool
tool, and top of the behringer pile, they're still as disposable as
every other piece of behringer gear.

Jason

[Ray Thomas[_2_]]

So does it say Pb free ? Almost certainly that'll be what killed it.

Lead was originally added to solder to prevent such problems but what do
politicians know ?

Read up on 'tin pest'. That'll make you bring your gear indoors !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_pest
An equipment destroyer for anyone who has to store equipment over night
even in
just cold temperatures. As warm as below 13C.

Graham

at the risk of derailing the original thread topic altogether...just what
exactly IS in the new lead free solder ? Is it 100% tin now ? I'm sure it
isn't a 60/40 tin and bismuth mix or we'd all be keeling over at our
soldering stations ! Don't amalgams tend to dilute the negative properties
of their constituent parts ? Enquiring minds want to know...and how is the
new solder bearing up in combat conditions like aircraft landing gear
circuitry for example (you wouldn't want your tinned cores going white,
powdery and non-conductive just before landing on a winter runway !)

Earlier...
Ray

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Phildo wrote:

OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a
power
up test.

Wouldn't matter if they did. Who knows what the unit has been through
between manufacture/QC and the user plugging it in. Truck driver
could have gone over some speedhumps too fast, truck may have gone
through a very cold area, the end user may have dropped it before
putting it in the rack etc etc.

Or 4 EU pallets were pushed over the warehouse floor by a forklift at 15
mph, or 4 bundles of boxes where pushed similarly. I've seen it done to 4
plasma tv's in the GBP 5000 each price range... [paraphrasing] that's the
way to do it!

Phildo

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Mike Rivers]

Ray Thomas wrote:

at the risk of derailing the original thread topic altogether...just what
exactly IS in the new lead free solder ? Is it 100% tin now ?

No, that doesn't work very well for electronics. There are a number of
formulations, each of which have advantages and disadvantages for
specific applications. Most of the literature you'll find is regarding
soldering for machine assembly, not hand-soldering for repair or
good-guy hobbyist construction. (though repair and rework is important
to manufacturers who are now required to be lead-free)

I have some lead-free solder that has antimony in it, which is probably
worse for us than lead, but at least it's lead-free. It doesn't make
very pretty joints and it's essential to make a solid mechanical
connection before soldering so that things won't move during cooling,
since it takes longer to cool than most of us can hold steady.




--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Eeyore]

Peter Larsen wrote:

Phildo wrote:

OK, point taken. Then too, assuming it worked before they shipped it
one ~could~ call it infant mortality. I would hope they at least do a
power up test.

Wouldn't matter if they did. Who knows what the unit has been through
between manufacture/QC and the user plugging it in. Truck driver
could have gone over some speedhumps too fast, truck may have gone
through a very cold area, the end user may have dropped it before
putting it in the rack etc etc.

Or 4 EU pallets were pushed over the warehouse floor by a forklift at 15
mph, or 4 bundles of boxes where pushed similarly. I've seen it done to 4
plasma tv's in the GBP 5000 each price range... [paraphrasing] that's the
way to do it!

Still NOTHING to do with the bathtub curve though which relates exclusively
to component failure, not physical damage.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Ray Thomas wrote:

So does it say Pb free ? Almost certainly that'll be what killed it.

Lead was originally added to solder to prevent such problems but what do
politicians know ?

Read up on 'tin pest'. That'll make you bring your gear indoors !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_pest
An equipment destroyer for anyone who has to store equipment over night
even in just cold temperatures. As warm as below 13C.

at the risk of derailing the original thread topic altogether...just what
exactly IS in the new lead free solder ? Is it 100% tin now ?

Often mostly tin with 0.5% copper (low cost manufacturing). Some grades add
silver (at a significant price). None of these AFAIK PREVENT tin pest though,
just make it happen slower. Various grades exist but even the best are 95+% tin
IIRC.

The Japanese tend to add bismuth too.


I'm sure it
isn't a 60/40 tin and bismuth mix or we'd all be keeling over at our
soldering stations ! Don't amalgams tend to dilute the negative properties
of their constituent parts ? Enquiring minds want to know...and how is the
new solder bearing up in combat conditions like aircraft landing gear
circuitry for example (you wouldn't want your tinned cores going white,
powdery and non-conductive just before landing on a winter runway !)

Certain industries including the military and 'networking' have been exempted.
One loudspeaker company even got an exemption since the vibration would kill
tin joints.

I'm just waiting for the first deaths to be attributable to lead-free solder
then we can put the entire EU Commission on a bonfire and burn them all.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Mike Rivers wrote:

Ray Thomas wrote:

at the risk of derailing the original thread topic altogether...just what
exactly IS in the new lead free solder ? Is it 100% tin now ?

No, that doesn't work very well for electronics. There are a number of
formulations, each of which have advantages and disadvantages for
specific applications. Most of the literature you'll find is regarding
soldering for machine assembly, not hand-soldering for repair or
good-guy hobbyist construction. (though repair and rework is important
to manufacturers who are now required to be lead-free)

I have some lead-free solder that has antimony in it, which is probably
worse for us than lead, but at least it's lead-free. It doesn't make
very pretty joints and it's essential to make a solid mechanical
connection before soldering so that things won't move during cooling,
since it takes longer to cool than most of us can hold steady.

It's basically rubbish.

Graham

[Eeyore]

Jason Lavoie wrote:

I'm not at all surprised.. I've installed about 40 of them, and at
least 1/4 of those failed between the 1.5-2.5 year mark.
looking back, your solution may well be the most appropriate, as my
units were 99% fixed installs and didn't suffer any vibration. the
next culprit is heat.

anyway. they are what they are.. just because they're a really cool
tool, and top of the behringer pile, they're still as disposable as
every other piece of behringer gear.

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

Graham

[Ron(UK)]

Eeyore wrote:

Jason Lavoie wrote:

I'm not at all surprised.. I've installed about 40 of them, and at
least 1/4 of those failed between the 1.5-2.5 year mark.
looking back, your solution may well be the most appropriate, as my
units were 99% fixed installs and didn't suffer any vibration. the
next culprit is heat.

anyway. they are what they are.. just because they're a really cool
tool, and top of the behringer pile, they're still as disposable as
every other piece of behringer gear.

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

All gear is disposable, some just needs disposing of sooner than others

Ron

[Eeyore]

"Ron(UK)" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Jason Lavoie wrote:

I'm not at all surprised.. I've installed about 40 of them, and at
least 1/4 of those failed between the 1.5-2.5 year mark.
looking back, your solution may well be the most appropriate, as my
units were 99% fixed installs and didn't suffer any vibration. the
next culprit is heat.

anyway. they are what they are.. just because they're a really cool
tool, and top of the behringer pile, they're still as disposable as
every other piece of behringer gear.

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

All gear is disposable, some just needs disposing of sooner than others

I managed to sneak my way past the Horn's new 'no more Behringer' rule with
the ECM3000 ? measurement mic.

Graham

[George's ProSound Company]

"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:

Jason Lavoie wrote:

I'm not at all surprised.. I've installed about 40 of them, and at
least 1/4 of those failed between the 1.5-2.5 year mark.
looking back, your solution may well be the most appropriate, as my
units were 99% fixed installs and didn't suffer any vibration. the
next culprit is heat.

anyway. they are what they are.. just because they're a really cool
tool, and top of the behringer pile, they're still as disposable as
every other piece of behringer gear.

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

All gear is disposable, some just needs disposing of sooner than others

Ron

I don't see why I have about 40 of the deq's in service for years now and
had one fail, which was replaced overnight by Behringer

I write his comments off to poor service of the instalations

I would bet dollars to doughnuts he did not sell a routine maintence
contract with his installations and as such never gets a chance to prevent,
preventable fails
if crown/crest amps were as reliable as behringer, I would still be using
them.

I have no doubt he suffered those fails, I also "believe"(due to the amount
of gear I own/sell and my decades of live and installed sound work) that
most of them were preventable

I bet in 100 years he will have 100% failure

george

[Don Pearce]

Ron(UK) wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

Jason Lavoie wrote:

I'm not at all surprised.. I've installed about 40 of them, and at
least 1/4 of those failed between the 1.5-2.5 year mark.
looking back, your solution may well be the most appropriate, as my
units were 99% fixed installs and didn't suffer any vibration. the
next culprit is heat.

anyway. they are what they are.. just because they're a really cool
tool, and top of the behringer pile, they're still as disposable as
every other piece of behringer gear.

George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !

All gear is disposable, some just needs disposing of sooner than others

Ron

If you divide price by functionality (which you will need to estimate
numerically), you will arrive at a figure that tells you how long the
equipment needs to last to be worth buying. Halve the price, and you
halve the time.

d

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 14:21:07 +0100, Don Pearce
wrote:

If you divide price by functionality (which you will need to estimate
numerically), you will arrive at a figure that tells you how long the
equipment needs to last to be worth buying. Halve the price, and you
halve the time.

That's assuming the installation is trivial - send the client a new
one, tell him to slot it in. Gear can be so cheap now that delivery
and installation become the main cost.

[George's ProSound Company]

Gear can be so cheap now that delivery
and installation become the main cost.

and your primairy profit center.
anyone can shop a piece of gear on line and get near dealer costs
nobody can shop my service
it is what I say it is
George

[Don Pearce]

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 14:21:07 +0100, Don Pearce
wrote:

If you divide price by functionality (which you will need to estimate
numerically), you will arrive at a figure that tells you how long the
equipment needs to last to be worth buying. Halve the price, and you
halve the time.

That's assuming the installation is trivial - send the client a new
one, tell him to slot it in. Gear can be so cheap now that delivery
and installation become the main cost.

Provided the original installation is sensible, like-for-like
replacement is usually very easy.

d

[George's ProSound Company]

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
et...
Laurence Payne wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 14:21:07 +0100, Don Pearce
wrote:

If you divide price by functionality (which you will need to estimate
numerically), you will arrive at a figure that tells you how long the
equipment needs to last to be worth buying. Halve the price, and you
halve the time.

That's assuming the installation is trivial - send the client a new
one, tell him to slot it in. Gear can be so cheap now that delivery
and installation become the main cost.

Provided the original installation is sensible, like-for-like replacement
is usually very easy.

d

very easy for people that handle gear on a regular basis
it's like rocket science to a office manager who doesn't even know how to
open the rack

if you don't want to do free calls , install it yourself and charge for your
time
george

[Ron(UK)]

George's ProSound Company wrote:
"Ron(UK)" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:
Jason Lavoie wrote:

I'm not at all surprised.. I've installed about 40 of them, and at
least 1/4 of those failed between the 1.5-2.5 year mark.
looking back, your solution may well be the most appropriate, as my
units were 99% fixed installs and didn't suffer any vibration. the
next culprit is heat.

anyway. they are what they are.. just because they're a really cool
tool, and top of the behringer pile, they're still as disposable as
every other piece of behringer gear.
George Gleason and Phildo REALLY aren't going to like hearing you say
things like that !
All gear is disposable, some just needs disposing of sooner than others

Ron

I don't see why I have about 40 of the deq's in service for years now and
had one fail, which was replaced overnight by Behringer


What I mean is, most users would not expect to have to replace an
expensive big name item of gear after a few years, yet something of the
standard of Behringer - which could pay for itself in maybe one gig -
may be expected to last a corespondingly shorter length of time.
Obviously the complexity of the item pays a large part in the equation,
as does the quality of components, build etc.

A lot of the gear at 'my' venue is over 11 years old and still working.
EV P3000 amps, an A&H GL2000, some EV Deltamax, SX300s etc. some of it
has now been replaced as a matter of course but most of the original
install gear still works fine.

Ron

[Scott Dorsey]

Ray Thomas wrote:
at the risk of derailing the original thread topic altogether...just what
exactly IS in the new lead free solder ? Is it 100% tin now ? I'm sure it
isn't a 60/40 tin and bismuth mix or we'd all be keeling over at our
soldering stations !

There are dozens of different formulas out there. Most of them contain
mostly tin, but with bismuth and copper and all kinds of junk in there.
They are all much more brittle than normal 63/37 and have higher melting
temperatures (making board rework a major pain). All of the various
manufacturers can send you a datasheet about why their formulation is the
best.

Don't amalgams tend to dilute the negative properties
of their constituent parts ? Enquiring minds want to know...and how is the
new solder bearing up in combat conditions like aircraft landing gear
circuitry for example (you wouldn't want your tinned cores going white,
powdery and non-conductive just before landing on a winter runway !)

Funny thing, the aviation and military folks have an exemption from RoHS
regulations, as do the telco people. Seems they have some reliability
concerns. The US military still requires 63/37 for everything they don't
require silver-bearing solder for, though I don't know about NATO specs.

I think the original RoHs idea is a good one... there is so much disposable
consumer junk out there, and it gets disposed of. The problem is that it
is getting applied to almost everything out there. And of course even though
it's not a US regulation, we still have to live with it here because everyone
wants to sell products in Europe too.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ron Capik]

Eeyore wrote:

...snip..

Still NOTHING to do with the bathtub curve though which relates exclusively
to component failure, not physical damage.

Graham

OK, sadly I just got another data point. New unit, fresh out of the box,
worked for about an hour then quit working. The display lights up
and flickers a bit but it won't boot.

Oh, and it was the replacement for a DOA unit I got about a
week ago.

Damn, I don't seem to be having good luck this month.


Later...

Ron Capik
--

[Mickey]

On 2008-09-13, George's ProSound Company wrote:

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
et...
Laurence Payne wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 14:21:07 +0100, Don Pearce
wrote:

If you divide price by functionality (which you will need to estimate
numerically), you will arrive at a figure that tells you how long the
equipment needs to last to be worth buying. Halve the price, and you
halve the time.

That's assuming the installation is trivial - send the client a new
one, tell him to slot it in. Gear can be so cheap now that delivery
and installation become the main cost.

Provided the original installation is sensible, like-for-like replacement
is usually very easy.

d

very easy for people that handle gear on a regular basis it's like
rocket science to a office manager who doesn't even know how to open
the rack

if you don't want to do free calls , install it yourself and charge
for your time

The secret of how I make my (non-audio) living. There are zillions
of people who will pay top dollar for friendly, competent, and
reliable service. I have clients who have been mine since 1996 and
changed companies twice to follow me.

--
Mickey
Few blame themselves until they have exhausted all other possibilities.
-- anonymous

[Mickey]

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.audio.pro.live-sound.]
On 2008-09-13, Ron Capik wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

...snip..

Still NOTHING to do with the bathtub curve though which relates exclusively
to component failure, not physical damage.

Graham

OK, sadly I just got another data point. New unit, fresh out of the box,
worked for about an hour then quit working. The display lights up
and flickers a bit but it won't boot.

Oh, and it was the replacement for a DOA unit I got about a
week ago.

Damn, I don't seem to be having good luck this month.

From Musician's Friend/Guitar Center, perhaps? I believe they
have taken to receiving RMAs, powering them up to see if a light
comes on, and shipping them back out. I had four similar
stories after their merger with GC, and have stopped doing business
with them.

--
Mickey
"The biofuels debacle is global warm-mongering in a nutshell: The
first victims of poseur environmentalism will always be developing
countries. In order for you to put biofuel in your Prius and feel good
about yourself for no reason, real actual people in faraway places
have to starve to death."
-Mark Steyn