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Keoki Keoki is offline
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

Is there some sort of super-strong chorus-delay-flanger-sustainer unit
or plugin specially created to turn a thin synth "plinkk" into a
giant, stadium-filling "bronnggg!"?

In my Yamaha DX7-II days I did this with the synth's "unison detune"
sound quadrupling & detuning function. It ate up 75% of the polyphony,
but the effect was so huge, the turboed timbre bore little resemblance
to the original.

I know that most any multieffect sold since then has some garden
variety chorus and delay at least, but is there one that's especially
created and optimized to supersize thin synth timbres?

TIA for your help
Keoki
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Jul 4, 10:25 pm, Keoki wrote:
Is there some sort of super-strong chorus-delay-flanger-sustainer unit
or plugin specially created to turn a thin synth "plinkk" into a
giant, stadium-filling "bronnggg!"?


Yes. It's called a "different patch." You have command of all sorts of
full sounds. Find one that's appropriate for your song and use it. If
the track is already recorded, record it again. It doesn't matter if
the musician who played the track is on tour in Greenland and won't be
back for two more years. Nobody will every know he was replaced. g
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Keoki Keoki is offline
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Jul 4, 4:51 pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Jul 4, 10:25 pm, Keoki wrote:

Is there some sort of super-strong chorus-delay-flanger-sustainer unit
or plugin specially created to turn a thin synth "plinkk" into a
giant, stadium-filling "bronnggg!"?


Yes. It's called a "different patch." You have command of all sorts of
full sounds. Find one that's appropriate for your song and use it. If
the track is already recorded, record it again. It doesn't matter if
the musician who played the track is on tour in Greenland and won't be
back for two more years. Nobody will every know he was replaced. g


Hello Mike,

I know, I could dial up a different patch on my state-of-art 'board,
but the reason I asked this question is that I'm trying to give a new
life to some early 80's digital synths I also have.
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WillStG WillStG is offline
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Jul 4, 11:04*pm, Keoki wrote:
On Jul 4, 4:51 pm, Mike Rivers wrote:

On Jul 4, 10:25 pm, Keoki wrote:


Is there some sort of super-strong chorus-delay-flanger-sustainer unit
or plugin specially created to turn a thin synth "plinkk" into a
giant, stadium-filling "bronnggg!"?


Yes. It's called a "different patch." You have command of all sorts of
full sounds. Find one that's appropriate for your song and use it. If
the track is already recorded, record it again. It doesn't matter if
the musician who played the track is on tour in Greenland and won't be
back for two more years. Nobody will every know he was replaced. g


Hello Mike,

I know, I could dial up a different patch on my state-of-art 'board,
but the reason I asked this question is that I'm trying to give a new
life to some early 80's digital synths I also have.


The quality of your audio interfacing makes a BIG difference. I would
recommend a DI unit that has a huge transformer, or a really good DI
through a micpre with a Jensen Transformer, or if you have a Manley
Massive Passive EQ laying around run your synth through that. I have
witnessed more than one keyboardist with your same question buy a
Manley Massive Passive or a VoxBox because they impart gravitas to a
synth source.

Just patching into the line input of a DAW won't do much for your
signal, and the "one size fits all" functioning of some of these
things can reduce to timidity what sounds a lot better through an
amp. This is especially true if the interface input is electronically
balanced. When you compare the costs of your DAW interface and really
good DI's/Micpres/EQ's, you might expect the cheaper thing (your DAW
interface) is probably making compromises that affect your sound.

Tracking to 2" tape will also fatten up your sound much more
effectively than a plugin. Alternately, layer the thing with other
synths.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits


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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 19:51:34 -0700 (PDT), Mike Rivers
wrote:

It doesn't matter if
the musician who played the track is on tour in Greenland and won't be
back for two more years. Nobody will every know he was replaced.


What's he doing, 16 weeks in each venue? :-)


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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

Keoki wrote:

I know, I could dial up a different patch on my state-of-art 'board,
but the reason I asked this question is that I'm trying to give a new
life to some early 80's digital synths I also have.


I guess now you know why there were early 80s analog synths and early
90s digital synths.

If it's not there to begin with, there's nothing to enhance. You could
try some time based effects or perhaps an analog tape simulator which
add things that weren't in the original sound, but not likely that
you'll turn a "plink" into a "BOINNNNNG" at the click of a mouse.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Jul 5, 12:34*am, Mike Rivers wrote:

If it's not there to begin with, there's nothing to enhance. You could
try some time based effects or perhaps an analog tape simulator which
add things that weren't in the original sound, but not likely that
you'll turn a "plink" into a "BOINNNNNG" at the click of a mouse.


The DX7-II-based unison detune trick which I mentioned did just that.
One could take what sounded like an anemic DX harpsichord "plinkk"
patch with a long release, turn unison detune on, and bingo - it would
turn into a heavy-metal-band-in-a-stadium-like-guitars-bass-cymbal-
snare hit, a huge "boinggg!". (With an extra whoosh on the attack too,
if OscSync was on.) The original harpsichord timbre would be totally
diluted, metamorphosed, colored, obliterated. Yet, all that did this
was just a quadrupling of the sound with each copy slightly detuned.
This is the kind of effect I'm after. So, if I understood Will
correctly, a Manley Massive Passive box would do something like this?
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?


"Keoki" wrote in message
...
On Jul 5, 12:34 am, Mike Rivers wrote:

If it's not there to begin with, there's nothing to enhance. You could
try some time based effects or perhaps an analog tape simulator which
add things that weren't in the original sound, but not likely that
you'll turn a "plink" into a "BOINNNNNG" at the click of a mouse.


The DX7-II-based unison detune trick which I mentioned did just that.
One could take what sounded like an anemic DX harpsichord "plinkk"
patch with a long release, turn unison detune on, and bingo - it would
turn into a heavy-metal-band-in-a-stadium-like-guitars-bass-cymbal-
snare hit, a huge "boinggg!". (With an extra whoosh on the attack too,
if OscSync was on.) The original harpsichord timbre would be totally
diluted, metamorphosed, colored, obliterated. Yet, all that did this
was just a quadrupling of the sound with each copy slightly detuned.
This is the kind of effect I'm after. So, if I understood Will
correctly, a Manley Massive Passive box would do something like this?

If you don't need it real-time put the track into melodyne and manually
create four detuned tracks and mix it in to taste.


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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

Keoki wrote:

The DX7-II-based unison detune trick which I mentioned did just that.
One could take what sounded like an anemic DX harpsichord "plinkk"
patch with a long release, turn unison detune on, and bingo - it would
turn into a heavy-metal-band-in-a-stadium-like-guitars-bass-cymbal-
snare hit, a huge "boinggg!".


The original harpsichord timbre would be totally
diluted, metamorphosed, colored, obliterated. Yet, all that did this
was just a quadrupling of the sound with each copy slightly detuned.


OK, so you know the trick. Make four copies of the track, detune each
one slightly, and mix to taste. I suspect that there may have been some
dynamic panning in there as well.

This is the kind of effect I'm after. So, if I understood Will
correctly, a Manley Massive Passive box would do something like this?


I seriously doubt it. The Massive Passive is an equalizer. Once voice
in, once voice out, with a range of frequencies cut or boosted.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)


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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

If someone still has a DX-7II keyboard (the rack TX modules don't
offer "unison detune"), here is a patch that illustrates what I was
talking about.

Alg 11, Fbl 3, Osc Sync Off, Transpose C2
Oscillator & Envelope:
Operator 1 - Freq 1.99, Det +7, EG - RS 0, R1 96, R2 45, R3 54, R4 31,
L1 96, L2 94, L3 86, L4 0
Operator 2 - Freq 1.00, Det +0, EG - RS 0, R1 99, R2 31, R3 25, R4 28,
L1 99, L2 99, L3 99, L4 0
Operator 3 - Freq 9.00, Det +0, EG - RS 0, R1 99, R2 43, R3 72, R4
0, L1 86, L2 56, L3 74, L4 0
Operator 4 - Freq 1.00, Det +0, EG - RS 1, R1 96, R2 26, R3 25, R4 29,
L1 99, L2 99, L3 99, L4 0
Operator 5 - Freq 0.50, Det +1, EG - RS 1, R1 96, R2 0, R3 0, R4
15, L1 99, L2 97, L3 95, L4 0
Operator 6 - Freq 2.00, Det +4, EG - RS 1, R1 96, R2 44, R3 25, R4 14,
L1 99, L2 99, L3 99, L4 0
Keyboard Scaling, & Modulation Sensitivity
Operator 1 - Out Lvl 92, Velocity Sensitivity 1
Operator 2 - Out Lvl 99, Bk Point A-1, RC -L, RD 10
Operator 3 - Out Lvl 97, Velocity Sensitivity 3
Operator 4 - Out Lvl 99,
Operator 5 - Out Lvl 82, LD +13, LC +L, Bk Point C3, Velocity
Sensitivity 1
Operator 6 - Out Lvl 68, LD +19, LC +L, Bk Point C2
Key Mode - Unison Poly, Unison Detune 3.

All parameters not indicated here are at init (default) value. If you
play this sound staccato with unison poly, detune 3 then play it
without it (in plain Polyphonic key mode) you hear a completely
different thing! In unison poly it's a shredding, stadium size,
humongous heavy metal band hit. Without unison poly it's a thin,
twerpy little harpsichord.

Maybe someone who tries this on a DX-7II (I don't have one) could make
a mp3 for the rest to hear it? We are talking total sonic
metamorphosis.
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?


"Keoki" wrote in message
...
Is there some sort of super-strong chorus-delay-flanger-sustainer unit
or plugin specially created to turn a thin synth "plinkk" into a
giant, stadium-filling "bronnggg!"?


There is. It's called a Leslie

Serious. Leslie your synth. You'll be amazed.

Bm


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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

Maybe we could use a harmonizer to do this quadrupling + detune trick
in real time? Can any of the affordable harmonizers be set to pitch
shift only by a few tiny cents instead of a chord interval?
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Jul 5, 7:11*am, Keoki wrote:
The DX7-II-based unison detune trick which I mentioned did just that.
One could take what sounded like an anemic DX harpsichord "plinkk"
patch with a long release, turn unison detune on, and bingo - it would
turn into a heavy-metal-band-in-a-stadium-like-guitars-bass-cymbal-
snare hit, a huge "boinggg!". (With an extra whoosh on the attack too,
if OscSync was on.) The original harpsichord timbre would be totally
diluted, metamorphosed, colored, obliterated. Yet, all that did this
was just a quadrupling of the sound with each copy slightly detuned.
This is the kind of effect I'm after. So, if I understood Will
correctly, a Manley Massive Passive box would do something like this?


The way you record your synth makes a big difference. If you
optimize that, your existing sounds will have a lot more impact.
Transformers and inductors can add a lot of what people perceive as
"Vintage" character to your sounds. You get harmonics, ringing,
overshoot, a whole lot of "metal" into the sound. Conversely a
decent sound can be reduced to mosquito status if your synth doesn't
like seeing the input it's feeding for one reason or another. Cheap
DI's or no DI's at all but just the cheap inputs on your DAW interface
are culprits too. Good DI's and micpres cost money, and there is a
reason for that.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Jul 7, 7:48*pm, WillStG wrote:

Transformers and inductors can add a lot of what people perceive as
"Vintage" character to your sounds. *You get harmonics, ringing,
overshoot, a whole lot of "metal" into the sound. * Conversely a
decent sound can be reduced to mosquito status if your synth doesn't
like seeing the input it's feeding for one reason or another. *


Hello Will,

I record my keyboard tracks into my G5 via an M-Audio Delta 2496 card.
I could get my hands on a giant Peavey Mark 8 console (claimed to be
the smaller brother of their Media Matrix products) locally for the
cost of a better plugin synth. Would it add a noticeable difference to
thin synth sounds? Or is a rack space Focusrite ISA430 or a Neve
preamp still a better way to deal with the preamp question. (Which is
a different matter from my original synth ballsifying effect ideas,
but a valid issue to tackle as well.)


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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Jul 7, 10:17*am, "Badmuts" wrote:
"Keoki" wrote in message

Is there some sort of super-strong chorus-delay-flanger-sustainer unit
or plugin specially created to turn a thin synth "plinkk" into a
giant, stadium-filling "bronnggg!"?


There is. It's called a Leslie

Serious. Leslie your synth. You'll be amazed.


BM, this is an awesome idea. Will definitely try.
Do you do it with a real Leslie, or do you use a Leslie emulator of
some kind?
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

Run it through a Fender Champ in a good-sounding room. Mike the room with a
good microphone run through a good preamp. Enjoy.

For a different effect, substitute a Fender Twin.

Peace,
Paul


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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Jul 10, 3:48*pm, "Paul Stamler" wrote:

Run it through a Fender Champ in a good-sounding room. Mike the room with a
good microphone run through a good preamp. Enjoy.

For a different effect, substitute a Fender Twin.


Or for that matter, a PigNose.

rd
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Jul 10, 6:14*pm, wrote:
On 2008-07-10 said:
* *Run it through a Fender Champ in a good-sounding room. Mike the
* *room with a good microphone run through a good preamp. Enjoy.
* *For a different effect, substitute a Fender Twin.
OR even just a good keyboard amp. *SOrt of what I suggested
to him the other day, but don't think he has good room or
good preamp.
LEast it sounds that way.

LEslies are cool too as another poster suggests, and if
doing organ tracks a must. *NO I don't like the simulators,
I like the real deal.


Using a Leslie might end up being more of a distraction.
You can get lost for hours in that sound.
Especially if you sit up close. It tends to suck you in.
Heck, you could spend all day just trying to mic the thing in stereo.

rd


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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Jul 10, 12:14 pm, wrote:
don't think he has good room or
good preamp.
LEast it sounds that way.


Well, the rooms have fine reverb characteristics per se. Unfortunately
we also have a bunch of neighbors with lots of kids and zero
civilizing ability. Tour buses that sound louder from 60 ft than the
average TV set in the room. Harley monkeys whizzing by every 3 hours
on average presuming someone may *want* to hear how their bikes sound.
(Hint: no). The back side of an upscale restaurant next door where
drunk employees compete in out-shouting each other and tinpot football
on concrete. So yeah, I'm pretty much resigned to working with line-
level sources.
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Jul 10, 11:58*am, Keoki wrote:
Hello Will,

I record my keyboard tracks into my G5 via an M-Audio Delta 2496 card.
I could get my hands on a giant Peavey Mark 8 console (claimed to be
the smaller brother of their Media Matrix products) locally for the
cost of a better plugin synth. Would it add a noticeable difference to
thin synth sounds? Or is a rack space Focusrite ISA430 or a Neve
preamp still a better way to deal with the preamp question. (Which is
a different matter from my original synth ballsifying effect ideas,
but a valid issue to tackle as well.)


I've not used a Mark 8 Peavey, but the micpres are electronically
balanced (which is *not* fattening), it does have transformers on the
mix buss but I have no idea how they sound. Consoles that have big
fat transformers on the inputs and/or outputs are what I'm generally
talking about, also certain Op Amps have euphonic qualities to them,
consoles built like that tend to get parted out and sold module by
module for racking up at end of life. Transformers, inductors,
basically it's copper wire wrapped around one or more bobbins in
various configurations. And like guitar pickups, they all have their
own character.

Stuff like vintage Neve line or mic modules, Telefunken/Sitral/EAB/
TAB line or mic modules, some Calrec strips or even older Canadian
Ward Beck stuff.. Or some modern Manley stuff, John Hardy M2's with
the Jensen transformer option, API and the OSI clones thereof, Purple
Audio gear, Pendulum, there are lots of choices out there.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

Using a Leslie might end up being more of a distraction.
You can get lost for hours in that sound.


Yeah... nice eh?

Especially if you sit up close. It tends to suck you in.


It keeps amazing me. Even after years.

Heck, you could spend all day just trying to mic the thing in stereo.


I recently did a lot of leslie recording, experimenting with lots of
different mics. Took me a long day indeed but i've now fully refined my
Leslie micing technique.

For all the Leslie fans: try a Shinybox ribbon mic on the low rotor. Smooth
sweetness.
Or try a couple of dirt cheap sennheiser 635 vocal mics (!) on the top.
Outperforms a set of 421's to my ears. I just tried it because they were
available.

Bm




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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?


BM, this is an awesome idea. Will definitely try.
Do you do it with a real Leslie, or do you use a Leslie emulator of
some kind?


I have the privilege of owning a real Leslie, but i've you're stuck using
line-level and in-the-box effects a sim might also work.
You might try the sim that comes with the VB3 vsti.

Bm


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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

I found a plugin that approximates the quadrupling+detuning effect I
mentioned, it's Antares's Avox Choir. I tested their free trial
download. Its "Vibrato" parameter muddies synth timbres a bit, but
hey, it's a vocal plugin, isn't it. The main thing is that it showed
me that the pitch-shifting approach works. The search continues for a
similar effect that doesn't muddy synth sounds with an added vibrato
and doesn't require a hardware key.

On the preamp side, I stumbled onto Focusrite's Trakmaster Pro; for
$150 used, this strip can reportedly lend a fat "classic console"
sound to recordings. If anyone cares to comment from experience how
much difference it really makes on synth sounds, it will be
appreciated.

On the Leslie side (because, when you have 3 solutions, why not to use
all 3) I found a freeware Leslie simulator from MDA at
http://www.kvraudio.com/get/787.html
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On Jul 15, 5:08*pm, Keoki wrote:

On the preamp side, I stumbled onto Focusrite's Trakmaster Pro; for
$150 used, this strip can reportedly lend a fat "classic console"
sound to recordings. If anyone cares to comment from experience how
much difference it really makes on synth sounds, it will be
appreciated.



No, it will make them sound worse. I have no idea why Focusrite
continues to make low end gear that everyone returns to the store and
gets something else. You'd think they'd catch on.
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On the pitch shifting front, I pulled out an old TC Electronic
(Helicon) Quintet that I had around the studio for ages immemorial, to
see if it maybe can fit the task.

I never used this box for anything since the 6 years I had it because
I could never make sense of it how it's supposed to work. On any
normal effect I ever saw, you pump in a signal, you dial through the
presets and hear what they do. Not on this one. You dial through the
presets, you hear no change, only the numbers blink. You open the
manual PDF to see what the @#$%! one is supposed to push to hear & see
something happen on this stoopid box, you find no explanation. So you
throw both the manual and the box in the corner where they were
gathering dust in the first place. Whoever designed the used
interface / manual for this should really pursue a different job.

I'm getting better, though, this time I got through this recurring
routine in under 2 minutes. Well, okay, this unit won't help either.
The search continues :-)
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Default Best effect to ballsify thin synth sounds?

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 22:27:24 -0700 (PDT), Keoki
wrote:

On the pitch shifting front, I pulled out an old TC Electronic
(Helicon) Quintet that I had around the studio for ages immemorial, to
see if it maybe can fit the task.

I never used this box for anything since the 6 years I had it because
I could never make sense of it how it's supposed to work. On any
normal effect I ever saw, you pump in a signal, you dial through the
presets and hear what they do. Not on this one. You dial through the
presets, you hear no change, only the numbers blink. You open the
manual PDF to see what the @#$%! one is supposed to push to hear & see
something happen on this stoopid box, you find no explanation.


It's on p.7 of the manual

DATA WHEEL
Edits the value of the current
parameter from any menu or
mode.
In recall mode, turning the
wheel previews presets (top
level preset information is
flashed on the display but
preset data is not loaded until
RECALL is pressed again).


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On Jul 19, 10:55*pm, Laurence Payne wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 22:27:24 -0700 (PDT), Keoki
wrote:

You dial through the
presets, you hear no change, only the numbers blink. You open the
manual PDF to see what the @#$%! one is supposed to push to hear & see
something happen on this stoopid box, you find no explanation.


It's on p.7 of the manual

DATA WHEEL
Edits the value of the current
parameter from any menu or
mode.
In recall mode, turning the
wheel previews presets (top
level preset information is
flashed on the display but
preset data is not loaded until
RECALL is pressed again).


I saw this information, but I don't see the juncture where it relates
to the problem. One can turn the TC Quintet's data wheel till the cows
come home, and no sonic change happens, whatever mode the unit might
be in (I don't know). When I pressed RECALL, I only got stuck at a
different screen, with no sonic change when I wanted, and lots when I
didn't. I'm typing this from memory, the Quintet is already unplugged
& out of rack, readied for eBay. (Finally I'll get something good out
of it. My money :-)

On the other hand, I found a plugin that blows Avox Choir (and most
likely, this TC) right out of water, when it comes to thickening
timbral change. It's IK Multimedia's Amplitube. On its "Stomp" page, I
put a Chorus-1 box, added four slightly detuned pitch shifter modules
after it, and - wahoo! The hugest sound change ever, especially with
tube distortion added from an other page. (Vintage warmth? Check.) My
original Yamaha FM programming trick would only get me half this far;
this plugin could turn an anemic clavichord into full-blown Motörhead
even, which is well beyond my target. :-)
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