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#1
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Is there some sort of super-strong chorus-delay-flanger-sustainer unit
or plugin specially created to turn a thin synth "plinkk" into a giant, stadium-filling "bronnggg!"? In my Yamaha DX7-II days I did this with the synth's "unison detune" sound quadrupling & detuning function. It ate up 75% of the polyphony, but the effect was so huge, the turboed timbre bore little resemblance to the original. I know that most any multieffect sold since then has some garden variety chorus and delay at least, but is there one that's especially created and optimized to supersize thin synth timbres? TIA for your help Keoki |
#2
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On Jul 4, 10:25 pm, Keoki wrote:
Is there some sort of super-strong chorus-delay-flanger-sustainer unit or plugin specially created to turn a thin synth "plinkk" into a giant, stadium-filling "bronnggg!"? Yes. It's called a "different patch." You have command of all sorts of full sounds. Find one that's appropriate for your song and use it. If the track is already recorded, record it again. It doesn't matter if the musician who played the track is on tour in Greenland and won't be back for two more years. Nobody will every know he was replaced. g |
#3
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On Jul 4, 4:51 pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Jul 4, 10:25 pm, Keoki wrote: Is there some sort of super-strong chorus-delay-flanger-sustainer unit or plugin specially created to turn a thin synth "plinkk" into a giant, stadium-filling "bronnggg!"? Yes. It's called a "different patch." You have command of all sorts of full sounds. Find one that's appropriate for your song and use it. If the track is already recorded, record it again. It doesn't matter if the musician who played the track is on tour in Greenland and won't be back for two more years. Nobody will every know he was replaced. g Hello Mike, I know, I could dial up a different patch on my state-of-art 'board, but the reason I asked this question is that I'm trying to give a new life to some early 80's digital synths I also have. |
#4
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On Jul 4, 11:04*pm, Keoki wrote:
On Jul 4, 4:51 pm, Mike Rivers wrote: On Jul 4, 10:25 pm, Keoki wrote: Is there some sort of super-strong chorus-delay-flanger-sustainer unit or plugin specially created to turn a thin synth "plinkk" into a giant, stadium-filling "bronnggg!"? Yes. It's called a "different patch." You have command of all sorts of full sounds. Find one that's appropriate for your song and use it. If the track is already recorded, record it again. It doesn't matter if the musician who played the track is on tour in Greenland and won't be back for two more years. Nobody will every know he was replaced. g Hello Mike, I know, I could dial up a different patch on my state-of-art 'board, but the reason I asked this question is that I'm trying to give a new life to some early 80's digital synths I also have. The quality of your audio interfacing makes a BIG difference. I would recommend a DI unit that has a huge transformer, or a really good DI through a micpre with a Jensen Transformer, or if you have a Manley Massive Passive EQ laying around run your synth through that. I have witnessed more than one keyboardist with your same question buy a Manley Massive Passive or a VoxBox because they impart gravitas to a synth source. Just patching into the line input of a DAW won't do much for your signal, and the "one size fits all" functioning of some of these things can reduce to timidity what sounds a lot better through an amp. This is especially true if the interface input is electronically balanced. When you compare the costs of your DAW interface and really good DI's/Micpres/EQ's, you might expect the cheaper thing (your DAW interface) is probably making compromises that affect your sound. Tracking to 2" tape will also fatten up your sound much more effectively than a plugin. Alternately, layer the thing with other synths. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#5
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On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 19:51:34 -0700 (PDT), Mike Rivers
wrote: It doesn't matter if the musician who played the track is on tour in Greenland and won't be back for two more years. Nobody will every know he was replaced. What's he doing, 16 weeks in each venue? :-) |
#6
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Keoki wrote:
I know, I could dial up a different patch on my state-of-art 'board, but the reason I asked this question is that I'm trying to give a new life to some early 80's digital synths I also have. I guess now you know why there were early 80s analog synths and early 90s digital synths. If it's not there to begin with, there's nothing to enhance. You could try some time based effects or perhaps an analog tape simulator which add things that weren't in the original sound, but not likely that you'll turn a "plink" into a "BOINNNNNG" at the click of a mouse. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#7
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On Jul 5, 12:34*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
If it's not there to begin with, there's nothing to enhance. You could try some time based effects or perhaps an analog tape simulator which add things that weren't in the original sound, but not likely that you'll turn a "plink" into a "BOINNNNNG" at the click of a mouse. The DX7-II-based unison detune trick which I mentioned did just that. One could take what sounded like an anemic DX harpsichord "plinkk" patch with a long release, turn unison detune on, and bingo - it would turn into a heavy-metal-band-in-a-stadium-like-guitars-bass-cymbal- snare hit, a huge "boinggg!". (With an extra whoosh on the attack too, if OscSync was on.) The original harpsichord timbre would be totally diluted, metamorphosed, colored, obliterated. Yet, all that did this was just a quadrupling of the sound with each copy slightly detuned. This is the kind of effect I'm after. So, if I understood Will correctly, a Manley Massive Passive box would do something like this? |
#8
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#9
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![]() "Keoki" wrote in message ... On Jul 5, 12:34 am, Mike Rivers wrote: If it's not there to begin with, there's nothing to enhance. You could try some time based effects or perhaps an analog tape simulator which add things that weren't in the original sound, but not likely that you'll turn a "plink" into a "BOINNNNNG" at the click of a mouse. The DX7-II-based unison detune trick which I mentioned did just that. One could take what sounded like an anemic DX harpsichord "plinkk" patch with a long release, turn unison detune on, and bingo - it would turn into a heavy-metal-band-in-a-stadium-like-guitars-bass-cymbal- snare hit, a huge "boinggg!". (With an extra whoosh on the attack too, if OscSync was on.) The original harpsichord timbre would be totally diluted, metamorphosed, colored, obliterated. Yet, all that did this was just a quadrupling of the sound with each copy slightly detuned. This is the kind of effect I'm after. So, if I understood Will correctly, a Manley Massive Passive box would do something like this? If you don't need it real-time put the track into melodyne and manually create four detuned tracks and mix it in to taste. |
#10
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Keoki wrote:
The DX7-II-based unison detune trick which I mentioned did just that. One could take what sounded like an anemic DX harpsichord "plinkk" patch with a long release, turn unison detune on, and bingo - it would turn into a heavy-metal-band-in-a-stadium-like-guitars-bass-cymbal- snare hit, a huge "boinggg!". The original harpsichord timbre would be totally diluted, metamorphosed, colored, obliterated. Yet, all that did this was just a quadrupling of the sound with each copy slightly detuned. OK, so you know the trick. Make four copies of the track, detune each one slightly, and mix to taste. I suspect that there may have been some dynamic panning in there as well. This is the kind of effect I'm after. So, if I understood Will correctly, a Manley Massive Passive box would do something like this? I seriously doubt it. The Massive Passive is an equalizer. Once voice in, once voice out, with a range of frequencies cut or boosted. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#11
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If someone still has a DX-7II keyboard (the rack TX modules don't
offer "unison detune"), here is a patch that illustrates what I was talking about. Alg 11, Fbl 3, Osc Sync Off, Transpose C2 Oscillator & Envelope: Operator 1 - Freq 1.99, Det +7, EG - RS 0, R1 96, R2 45, R3 54, R4 31, L1 96, L2 94, L3 86, L4 0 Operator 2 - Freq 1.00, Det +0, EG - RS 0, R1 99, R2 31, R3 25, R4 28, L1 99, L2 99, L3 99, L4 0 Operator 3 - Freq 9.00, Det +0, EG - RS 0, R1 99, R2 43, R3 72, R4 0, L1 86, L2 56, L3 74, L4 0 Operator 4 - Freq 1.00, Det +0, EG - RS 1, R1 96, R2 26, R3 25, R4 29, L1 99, L2 99, L3 99, L4 0 Operator 5 - Freq 0.50, Det +1, EG - RS 1, R1 96, R2 0, R3 0, R4 15, L1 99, L2 97, L3 95, L4 0 Operator 6 - Freq 2.00, Det +4, EG - RS 1, R1 96, R2 44, R3 25, R4 14, L1 99, L2 99, L3 99, L4 0 Keyboard Scaling, & Modulation Sensitivity Operator 1 - Out Lvl 92, Velocity Sensitivity 1 Operator 2 - Out Lvl 99, Bk Point A-1, RC -L, RD 10 Operator 3 - Out Lvl 97, Velocity Sensitivity 3 Operator 4 - Out Lvl 99, Operator 5 - Out Lvl 82, LD +13, LC +L, Bk Point C3, Velocity Sensitivity 1 Operator 6 - Out Lvl 68, LD +19, LC +L, Bk Point C2 Key Mode - Unison Poly, Unison Detune 3. All parameters not indicated here are at init (default) value. If you play this sound staccato with unison poly, detune 3 then play it without it (in plain Polyphonic key mode) you hear a completely different thing! In unison poly it's a shredding, stadium size, humongous heavy metal band hit. Without unison poly it's a thin, twerpy little harpsichord. Maybe someone who tries this on a DX-7II (I don't have one) could make a mp3 for the rest to hear it? We are talking total sonic metamorphosis. |
#12
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![]() "Keoki" wrote in message ... Is there some sort of super-strong chorus-delay-flanger-sustainer unit or plugin specially created to turn a thin synth "plinkk" into a giant, stadium-filling "bronnggg!"? There is. It's called a Leslie ![]() Serious. Leslie your synth. You'll be amazed. Bm |
#13
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Maybe we could use a harmonizer to do this quadrupling + detune trick
in real time? Can any of the affordable harmonizers be set to pitch shift only by a few tiny cents instead of a chord interval? |
#14
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On Jul 5, 7:11*am, Keoki wrote:
The DX7-II-based unison detune trick which I mentioned did just that. One could take what sounded like an anemic DX harpsichord "plinkk" patch with a long release, turn unison detune on, and bingo - it would turn into a heavy-metal-band-in-a-stadium-like-guitars-bass-cymbal- snare hit, a huge "boinggg!". (With an extra whoosh on the attack too, if OscSync was on.) The original harpsichord timbre would be totally diluted, metamorphosed, colored, obliterated. Yet, all that did this was just a quadrupling of the sound with each copy slightly detuned. This is the kind of effect I'm after. So, if I understood Will correctly, a Manley Massive Passive box would do something like this? The way you record your synth makes a big difference. If you optimize that, your existing sounds will have a lot more impact. Transformers and inductors can add a lot of what people perceive as "Vintage" character to your sounds. You get harmonics, ringing, overshoot, a whole lot of "metal" into the sound. Conversely a decent sound can be reduced to mosquito status if your synth doesn't like seeing the input it's feeding for one reason or another. Cheap DI's or no DI's at all but just the cheap inputs on your DAW interface are culprits too. Good DI's and micpres cost money, and there is a reason for that. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#15
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On Jul 7, 7:48*pm, WillStG wrote:
Transformers and inductors can add a lot of what people perceive as "Vintage" character to your sounds. *You get harmonics, ringing, overshoot, a whole lot of "metal" into the sound. * Conversely a decent sound can be reduced to mosquito status if your synth doesn't like seeing the input it's feeding for one reason or another. * Hello Will, I record my keyboard tracks into my G5 via an M-Audio Delta 2496 card. I could get my hands on a giant Peavey Mark 8 console (claimed to be the smaller brother of their Media Matrix products) locally for the cost of a better plugin synth. Would it add a noticeable difference to thin synth sounds? Or is a rack space Focusrite ISA430 or a Neve preamp still a better way to deal with the preamp question. (Which is a different matter from my original synth ballsifying effect ideas, but a valid issue to tackle as well.) |
#16
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On Jul 7, 10:17*am, "Badmuts" wrote:
"Keoki" wrote in message Is there some sort of super-strong chorus-delay-flanger-sustainer unit or plugin specially created to turn a thin synth "plinkk" into a giant, stadium-filling "bronnggg!"? There is. It's called a Leslie ![]() Serious. Leslie your synth. You'll be amazed. BM, this is an awesome idea. Will definitely try. Do you do it with a real Leslie, or do you use a Leslie emulator of some kind? |
#17
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Run it through a Fender Champ in a good-sounding room. Mike the room with a
good microphone run through a good preamp. Enjoy. For a different effect, substitute a Fender Twin. Peace, Paul |
#18
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#19
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On Jul 10, 3:48*pm, "Paul Stamler" wrote:
Run it through a Fender Champ in a good-sounding room. Mike the room with a good microphone run through a good preamp. Enjoy. For a different effect, substitute a Fender Twin. Or for that matter, a PigNose. rd |
#20
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On Jul 10, 6:14*pm, wrote:
On 2008-07-10 said: * *Run it through a Fender Champ in a good-sounding room. Mike the * *room with a good microphone run through a good preamp. Enjoy. * *For a different effect, substitute a Fender Twin. OR even just a good keyboard amp. *SOrt of what I suggested to him the other day, but don't think he has good room or good preamp. LEast it sounds that way. LEslies are cool too as another poster suggests, and if doing organ tracks a must. *NO I don't like the simulators, I like the real deal. Using a Leslie might end up being more of a distraction. You can get lost for hours in that sound. Especially if you sit up close. It tends to suck you in. Heck, you could spend all day just trying to mic the thing in stereo. rd |
#21
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On Jul 10, 12:14 pm, wrote:
don't think he has good room or good preamp. LEast it sounds that way. Well, the rooms have fine reverb characteristics per se. Unfortunately we also have a bunch of neighbors with lots of kids and zero civilizing ability. Tour buses that sound louder from 60 ft than the average TV set in the room. Harley monkeys whizzing by every 3 hours on average presuming someone may *want* to hear how their bikes sound. (Hint: no). The back side of an upscale restaurant next door where drunk employees compete in out-shouting each other and tinpot football on concrete. So yeah, I'm pretty much resigned to working with line- level sources. |
#22
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On Jul 10, 11:58*am, Keoki wrote:
Hello Will, I record my keyboard tracks into my G5 via an M-Audio Delta 2496 card. I could get my hands on a giant Peavey Mark 8 console (claimed to be the smaller brother of their Media Matrix products) locally for the cost of a better plugin synth. Would it add a noticeable difference to thin synth sounds? Or is a rack space Focusrite ISA430 or a Neve preamp still a better way to deal with the preamp question. (Which is a different matter from my original synth ballsifying effect ideas, but a valid issue to tackle as well.) I've not used a Mark 8 Peavey, but the micpres are electronically balanced (which is *not* fattening), it does have transformers on the mix buss but I have no idea how they sound. Consoles that have big fat transformers on the inputs and/or outputs are what I'm generally talking about, also certain Op Amps have euphonic qualities to them, consoles built like that tend to get parted out and sold module by module for racking up at end of life. Transformers, inductors, basically it's copper wire wrapped around one or more bobbins in various configurations. And like guitar pickups, they all have their own character. Stuff like vintage Neve line or mic modules, Telefunken/Sitral/EAB/ TAB line or mic modules, some Calrec strips or even older Canadian Ward Beck stuff.. Or some modern Manley stuff, John Hardy M2's with the Jensen transformer option, API and the OSI clones thereof, Purple Audio gear, Pendulum, there are lots of choices out there. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#23
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#24
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#25
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Using a Leslie might end up being more of a distraction.
You can get lost for hours in that sound. Yeah... nice eh? ![]() Especially if you sit up close. It tends to suck you in. It keeps amazing me. Even after years. Heck, you could spend all day just trying to mic the thing in stereo. I recently did a lot of leslie recording, experimenting with lots of different mics. Took me a long day indeed but i've now fully refined my Leslie micing technique. For all the Leslie fans: try a Shinybox ribbon mic on the low rotor. Smooth sweetness. Or try a couple of dirt cheap sennheiser 635 vocal mics (!) on the top. Outperforms a set of 421's to my ears. I just tried it because they were available. Bm |
#26
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![]() BM, this is an awesome idea. Will definitely try. Do you do it with a real Leslie, or do you use a Leslie emulator of some kind? I have the privilege of owning a real Leslie, but i've you're stuck using line-level and in-the-box effects a sim might also work. You might try the sim that comes with the VB3 vsti. Bm |
#27
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I found a plugin that approximates the quadrupling+detuning effect I
mentioned, it's Antares's Avox Choir. I tested their free trial download. Its "Vibrato" parameter muddies synth timbres a bit, but hey, it's a vocal plugin, isn't it. The main thing is that it showed me that the pitch-shifting approach works. The search continues for a similar effect that doesn't muddy synth sounds with an added vibrato and doesn't require a hardware key. On the preamp side, I stumbled onto Focusrite's Trakmaster Pro; for $150 used, this strip can reportedly lend a fat "classic console" sound to recordings. If anyone cares to comment from experience how much difference it really makes on synth sounds, it will be appreciated. On the Leslie side (because, when you have 3 solutions, why not to use all 3) I found a freeware Leslie simulator from MDA at http://www.kvraudio.com/get/787.html |
#28
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On Jul 15, 5:08*pm, Keoki wrote:
On the preamp side, I stumbled onto Focusrite's Trakmaster Pro; for $150 used, this strip can reportedly lend a fat "classic console" sound to recordings. If anyone cares to comment from experience how much difference it really makes on synth sounds, it will be appreciated. No, it will make them sound worse. I have no idea why Focusrite continues to make low end gear that everyone returns to the store and gets something else. You'd think they'd catch on. |
#29
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On the pitch shifting front, I pulled out an old TC Electronic
(Helicon) Quintet that I had around the studio for ages immemorial, to see if it maybe can fit the task. I never used this box for anything since the 6 years I had it because I could never make sense of it how it's supposed to work. On any normal effect I ever saw, you pump in a signal, you dial through the presets and hear what they do. Not on this one. You dial through the presets, you hear no change, only the numbers blink. You open the manual PDF to see what the @#$%! one is supposed to push to hear & see something happen on this stoopid box, you find no explanation. So you throw both the manual and the box in the corner where they were gathering dust in the first place. Whoever designed the used interface / manual for this should really pursue a different job. I'm getting better, though, this time I got through this recurring routine in under 2 minutes. Well, okay, this unit won't help either. The search continues :-) |
#30
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On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 22:27:24 -0700 (PDT), Keoki
wrote: On the pitch shifting front, I pulled out an old TC Electronic (Helicon) Quintet that I had around the studio for ages immemorial, to see if it maybe can fit the task. I never used this box for anything since the 6 years I had it because I could never make sense of it how it's supposed to work. On any normal effect I ever saw, you pump in a signal, you dial through the presets and hear what they do. Not on this one. You dial through the presets, you hear no change, only the numbers blink. You open the manual PDF to see what the @#$%! one is supposed to push to hear & see something happen on this stoopid box, you find no explanation. It's on p.7 of the manual DATA WHEEL Edits the value of the current parameter from any menu or mode. In recall mode, turning the wheel previews presets (top level preset information is flashed on the display but preset data is not loaded until RECALL is pressed again). |
#31
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On Jul 19, 10:55*pm, Laurence Payne wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 22:27:24 -0700 (PDT), Keoki wrote: You dial through the presets, you hear no change, only the numbers blink. You open the manual PDF to see what the @#$%! one is supposed to push to hear & see something happen on this stoopid box, you find no explanation. It's on p.7 of the manual DATA WHEEL Edits the value of the current parameter from any menu or mode. In recall mode, turning the wheel previews presets (top level preset information is flashed on the display but preset data is not loaded until RECALL is pressed again). I saw this information, but I don't see the juncture where it relates to the problem. One can turn the TC Quintet's data wheel till the cows come home, and no sonic change happens, whatever mode the unit might be in (I don't know). When I pressed RECALL, I only got stuck at a different screen, with no sonic change when I wanted, and lots when I didn't. I'm typing this from memory, the Quintet is already unplugged & out of rack, readied for eBay. (Finally I'll get something good out of it. My money :-) On the other hand, I found a plugin that blows Avox Choir (and most likely, this TC) right out of water, when it comes to thickening timbral change. It's IK Multimedia's Amplitube. On its "Stomp" page, I put a Chorus-1 box, added four slightly detuned pitch shifter modules after it, and - wahoo! The hugest sound change ever, especially with tube distortion added from an other page. (Vintage warmth? Check.) My original Yamaha FM programming trick would only get me half this far; this plugin could turn an anemic clavichord into full-blown Motörhead even, which is well beyond my target. :-) |
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