[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

You've wailed about this speech a few times recently. Where are the
"really bad parts" IYO?

********************************
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry, 1971 to the
Senate Committee of Foreign Relations April 23, 1971

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that
several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans
testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not
isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the
full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible
to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions
in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their
experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this
country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off
ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of
Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and
generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the
normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which
is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term
Winter Soldier is a play on words of Thomas Paine's in 1776 when he
spoke of the Sunshine Patriots and summertime soldiers who deserted at
Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we
have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country, we
could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went
on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, not
the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it,
that we have to speak out....

In our opinion and from our experience, there is nothing in South
Vietnam which could happen that realistically threatens the United
States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American
life in Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos by linking such loss to the
preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to
us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy
which we feel has torn this country apart.

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who
had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial
influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we
had enthusiastically molded after our own image were hard put to take
up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.

We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism
and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without
helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages
and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the
war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of
America, to leave them alone in peace, and they practiced the art of
survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a
particular time, be it Viet Cong, North Vietnamese or American.

We found also that all too often American men were dying in those rice
paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how
monies from American taxes were used for a corrupt dictatorial regime.
We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who
was kept free by the flag, and blacks provided the highest percentage
of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs and
search and destroy missions, as well as by Viet Cong terrorism - and
yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on
the Viet Cong.

We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw
America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My
Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out
chocolate bars and chewing gum.

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that
moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of
orientals.

We watched the United States falsification of body counts, in fact the
glorification of body counts. We listened while month after month we
were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using
weapons against "oriental human beings." We fought using weapons
against those people which I do not believe this country would dream
of using were we fighting in the European theater. We watched while
men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken,
and after losing one platoon or two platoons they marched away to
leave the hill for reoccupation by the North Vietnamese. We watched
pride allow the most unimportant battles to be blown into
extravaganzas, because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and
because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove
that point, and so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill
81s and Fire Base 6s, and so many others.

Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while
American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible
arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese.

Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes
her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the
United States doesn't have to admit something that the entire world
already knows, so that we can't say that we have made a mistake.
Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his
words, "the first President to lose a war."

We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a
man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be
the last man to die for a mistake?....We are here in Washington to say
that the problem of this war is not just a question of war and
diplomacy. It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as
human beings to communicate to people in this country - the question
of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other
questions such as the use of weapons; the hypocrisy in our taking
umbrage at the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for
a continuation of this war when we are more guilty than any other body
of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free fire
zones, harassment interdiction fire, search and destroy missions, the
bombings, the torture of prisoners, all accepted policy by many units
in South Vietnam. That is what we are trying to say. It is part and
parcel of everything.

An American Indian friend of mine who lives in the Indian Nation of
Alcatraz put it to me very succinctly. He told me how as a boy on an
Indian reservation he had watched television and he used to cheer the
cowboys when they came in and shot the Indians, and then suddenly one
day he stopped in Vietnam and he said, "my God, I am doing to these
people the very same thing that was done to my people," and he
stopped. And that is what we are trying to say, that we think this
thing has to end.

We are here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the
leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We're here to ask
where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatrick, and so many others?
Where are they now that we, the men they sent off to war, have
returned? These are the commanders who have deserted their troops. And
there is no more serious crime in the laws of war. The Army says they
never leave their wounded. The marines say they never even leave their
dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a
pious shield of public rectitude. They've left the real stuff of their
reputations bleaching behind them in the sun in this country....

We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that
service as easily as this administration has wiped away their memories
of us. But all that they have done and all that they can do by this
denial is to make more clear than ever our own determination to
undertake one last mission - to search out and destroy the last
vestige of this barbaric war, to pacify our own hearts, to conquer the
hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten years and
more. And more. And so when thirty years from now our brothers go down
the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys
ask why, we will be able to say "Vietnam" and not mean a desert, not a
filthy obscene memory, but mean instead where America finally turned
and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1972VVAW.html

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 3, 8:29*pm, "ScottW" wrote:

This will do. Even Kerry no longer stands behind these
words which is the most telling condemnation of them all.

I suppose you're talking about this fine journalism:

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/03/12...er-soldier-ii/

LoL

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 3, 8:29*pm, "ScottW" wrote:
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in ...





You've wailed about this speech a few times recently. Where are the
"really bad parts" IYO?

********************************
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry, 1971 to the
Senate Committee of Foreign Relations April 23, 1971

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that
several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans
testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not
isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the
full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible
to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions
in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their
experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this
country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off
ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians,

This will do. Even Kerry no longer stands behind these
words which is the most telling condemnation of them all.

Or perhaps Kerry had talked with CIA operatives?

"The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's
not like you had their address and telephone number. The normal
procedure would be to go into a village and just grab someone and say,
'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so afraid
they would say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the informant,
put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see, put
commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him through the
village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.'
Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say,
'April Fool, mother****er.' Whoever answered the door would get
wasted. As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a
Communist, including family members. Sometimes they'd come back to
camp with ears to prove that they killed people."
- Lieutenant Vincent Okamoto, intelligence-liaison officer for the
Phoenix Program for 2 months in 1968 and a recipient of the
Distinguished Service Cross. Wounded 3 times, he is the highest-
decorated Japanese-American veteran of the Vietnam War. He has served
as president of the Japanese American Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Committee and as a Los Angeles Superior Court judge.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 4, 12:17*am, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote:
On Jul 3, 8:29*pm, "ScottW" wrote:

This will do. Even Kerry no longer stands behind these
words which is the most telling condemnation of them all.

I suppose you're talking about this fine journalism:

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/03/12...n-kerry-confro...

LoL

This must be it.

2pid cannot stand that Malkin looks the fool here.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 5, 4:59*pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote:
On Jul 4, 12:17*am, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"

wrote:
On Jul 3, 8:29*pm, "ScottW" wrote:

This will do. Even Kerry no longer stands behind these
words which is the most telling condemnation of them all.

I suppose you're talking about this fine journalism:

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/03/12...n-kerry-confro...

LoL

This must be it.

2pid cannot stand that Malkin looks the fool here.

I think I'll keep bringing this one up until 2pid recognizes that (no
matter how much it bugs 2pid) Kerry was telling the truth.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 4, 12:21*am, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote:
On Jul 3, 8:29*pm, "ScottW" wrote:





"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in ....

You've wailed about this speech a few times recently. Where are the
"really bad parts" IYO?

********************************
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry, 1971 to the
Senate Committee of Foreign Relations April 23, 1971

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that
several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans
testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not
isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the
full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible
to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions
in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their
experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this
country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off
ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians,

This will do. Even Kerry no longer stands behind these
words which is the most telling condemnation of them all.

Or perhaps Kerry had talked with CIA operatives?

"The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's
not like you had their address and telephone number. The normal
procedure would be to go into a village and just grab someone and say,
'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so afraid
they would say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the informant,
put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see, put
commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him through the
village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.'
Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say,
'April Fool, mother****er.' Whoever answered the door would get
wasted. As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a
Communist, including family members. Sometimes they'd come back to
camp with ears to prove that they killed people."
- Lieutenant Vincent Okamoto, intelligence-liaison officer for the
Phoenix Program for 2 months in 1968 and a recipient of the
Distinguished Service Cross. Wounded 3 times, he is the highest-
decorated Japanese-American veteran of the Vietnam War. He has served
as president of the Japanese American Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Committee and as a Los Angeles Superior Court judge.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program- Hide quoted text -

So, 2pid, we've seen that Kerry told the truth about the part you said
bothered you the most.

Care to try again?

(Don't worry, we all know that you and the truth are strangers.)

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 9, 7:25*pm, "ScottW" wrote:
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in ...
On Jul 4, 12:21 am, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"





wrote:
On Jul 3, 8:29 pm, "ScottW" wrote:

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in
...

You've wailed about this speech a few times recently. Where are the
"really bad parts" IYO?

********************************
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry, 1971 to the
Senate Committee of Foreign Relations April 23, 1971

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that
several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans
testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not
isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the
full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible
to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions
in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their
experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this
country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off
ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians,

This will do. Even Kerry no longer stands behind these
words which is the most telling condemnation of them all.

Or perhaps Kerry had talked with CIA operatives?

"The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's
not like you had their address and telephone number. The normal
procedure would be to go into a village and just grab someone and say,
'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so afraid
they would say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the informant,
put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see, put
commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him through the
village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.'
Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say,
'April Fool, mother****er.' Whoever answered the door would get
wasted. As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a
Communist, including family members. Sometimes they'd come back to
camp with ears to prove that they killed people."
- Lieutenant Vincent Okamoto, intelligence-liaison officer for the
Phoenix Program for 2 months in 1968 and a recipient of the
Distinguished Service Cross. Wounded 3 times, he is the highest-
decorated Japanese-American veteran of the Vietnam War. He has served
as president of the Japanese American Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Committee and as a Los Angeles Superior Court judge.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program-Hide quoted text -

So, 2pid, we've seen that Kerry told the truth about the part you said
bothered you the most.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command"

Here is the deal, 2pid. (You're too stupid to see this, but it's
true.)

In the military, everything that happens or fails to happen in a unit
is the commander's fault. If you don't believe me, see what happened
to Colonel Bruce Emig, where some subordinate send some nukes off on a
B-52 recently. I doubt that the Colonel was even in the area.

So you've set up this argument: if the unit commanders were NOT aware,
they were incompetent.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1088533/posts
Phonix program, even if true does not prove Kerry's statement.

Why focus on the Phoenix program, which was just another sanctioned US
government terror squad?

He

the routine torture and execution of prisoners[8]
the routine practice of intentionally killing unarmed Vietnamese
villagers including men, women, children, and elderly people[9]
the routine practice of cutting off and collecting the ears of
victims[10]
the practice of wearing necklaces composed of human ears[11]
the practice of cutting off and collecting the scalps of victims[12]
an incident where a young mother was drugged, raped, and then
executed[13]
an incident where a soldier killed a baby and cut off his or her head
after the baby's mother was killed[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Force

"Routine" and "practice" do not indicate one-time infractions. "An
incident" could, but even that is not necessarily a sound assumption.

Care to try again?

"Again" means that I didn't already post this. I did though.

You're just too stupid to see it.

BTW, you still haven't shown where Kerry renounced his speech. Would
you care to try gain? Lol

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Jul 9, 7:22*pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote:
On Jul 9, 7:25*pm, "ScottW" wrote:





"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in

om...
On Jul 4, 12:21 am, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"

wrote:
On Jul 3, 8:29 pm, "ScottW" wrote:

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in

ups.com...

You've wailed about this speech a few times recently. Where are the
"really bad parts" IYO?

********************************
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry, 1971 to
the
Senate Committee of Foreign Relations April 23, 1971

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that
several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans
testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not
isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with
the
full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is
impossible
to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the
emotions
in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their
experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what
this
country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off
ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians,

This will do. Even Kerry no longer stands behind these
words which is the most telling condemnation of them all.

Or perhaps Kerry had talked with CIA operatives?

"The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's
not like you had their address and telephone number. The normal
procedure would be to go into a village and just grab someone and say,
'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so afraid
they would say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the informant,
put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see, put
commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him through the
village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.'
Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say,
'April Fool, mother****er.' Whoever answered the door would get
wasted. As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a
Communist, including family members. Sometimes they'd come back to
camp with ears to prove that they killed people."
- Lieutenant Vincent Okamoto, intelligence-liaison officer for the
Phoenix Program for 2 months in 1968 and a recipient of the
Distinguished Service Cross. Wounded 3 times, he is the highest-
decorated Japanese-American veteran of the Vietnam War. He has served
as president of the Japanese American Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Committee and as a Los Angeles Superior Court judge.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program-Hidequoted text -

So, 2pid, we've seen that Kerry told the truth about the part you said
bothered you the most.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of
command"

Here is the deal, 2pid. (You're too stupid to see this, but it's
true.)

In the military, everything that happens or fails to happen in a unit
is the commander's fault. If you don't believe me, see what happened
to Colonel Bruce Emig, where some subordinate send some nukes off on a
B-52 recently. I doubt that the Colonel was even in the area.

So you've set up this argument: if the unit commanders were NOT aware,
they were incompetent.

And I reject that every unit was guilty of these
acts as Kerry claimed.

That's not what he said, Scott.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 10, 1:26*am, Jenn wrote:
In article
,





*ScottW wrote:
On Jul 9, 7:22*pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote:
On Jul 9, 7:25*pm, "ScottW" wrote:

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in

om...
On Jul 4, 12:21 am, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"

wrote:
On Jul 3, 8:29 pm, "ScottW" wrote:

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in

ups.com...

You've wailed about this speech a few times recently. Where are the
"really bad parts" IYO?

********************************
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry, 1971 to
the
Senate Committee of Foreign Relations April 23, 1971

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that
several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans
testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not
isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with
the
full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is
impossible
to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the
emotions
in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their
experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what
this
country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off
ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies,
randomly shot at civilians,

This will do. Even Kerry no longer stands behind these
words which is the most telling condemnation of them all.

Or perhaps Kerry had talked with CIA operatives?

"The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's
not like you had their address and telephone number. The normal
procedure would be to go into a village and just grab someone and say,
'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so afraid
they would say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the informant,
put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see, put
commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him through the
village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.'
Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say,
'April Fool, mother****er.' Whoever answered the door would get
wasted. As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a
Communist, including family members. Sometimes they'd come back to
camp with ears to prove that they killed people."
- Lieutenant Vincent Okamoto, intelligence-liaison officer for the
Phoenix Program for 2 months in 1968 and a recipient of the
Distinguished Service Cross. Wounded 3 times, he is the highest-
decorated Japanese-American veteran of the Vietnam War. He has served
as president of the Japanese American Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Committee and as a Los Angeles Superior Court judge.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix...Hidequotedtext -

So, 2pid, we've seen that Kerry told the truth about the part you said
bothered you the most.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of
command"

Here is the deal, 2pid. (You're too stupid to see this, but it's
true.)

In the military, everything that happens or fails to happen in a unit
is the commander's fault. If you don't believe me, see what happened
to Colonel Bruce Emig, where some subordinate send some nukes off on a
B-52 recently. I doubt that the Colonel was even in the area.

So you've set up this argument: if the unit commanders were NOT aware,
they were incompetent.

And I reject that every unit was guilty of these
acts as Kerry claimed.

That's not what he said, Scott.

Sorry, Jenn: you have "normal" intelligence. You do not count.

Of course that's not what I (or Kerry) said.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Jul 9, 7:22 pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote:
On Jul 9, 7:25 pm, "ScottW" wrote:





"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in

s.c
om...
On Jul 4, 12:21 am, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"

wrote:
On Jul 3, 8:29 pm, "ScottW" wrote:

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in

gro
ups.com...

You've wailed about this speech a few times recently. Where are
the
"really bad parts" IYO?

********************************
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry, 1971
to
the
Senate Committee of Foreign Relations April 23, 1971

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say
that
several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which
over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated,
veterans
testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were
not
isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis
with
the
full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is
impossible
to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the
emotions
in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their
experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what
this
country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut
off
ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to
human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up
bodies,
randomly shot at civilians,

This will do. Even Kerry no longer stands behind these
words which is the most telling condemnation of them all.

Or perhaps Kerry had talked with CIA operatives?

"The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist? It's
not like you had their address and telephone number. The normal
procedure would be to go into a village and just grab someone and
say,
'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so afraid
they would say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the
informant,
put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see, put
commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him through
the
village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your head.'
Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and say,
'April Fool, mother****er.' Whoever answered the door would get
wasted. As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a
Communist, including family members. Sometimes they'd come back to
camp with ears to prove that they killed people."
- Lieutenant Vincent Okamoto, intelligence-liaison officer for the
Phoenix Program for 2 months in 1968 and a recipient of the
Distinguished Service Cross. Wounded 3 times, he is the highest-
decorated Japanese-American veteran of the Vietnam War. He has
served
as president of the Japanese American Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Committee and as a Los Angeles Superior Court judge.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program-Hidequoted text -

So, 2pid, we've seen that Kerry told the truth about the part you said
bothered you the most.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of
command"

Here is the deal, 2pid. (You're too stupid to see this, but it's
true.)

In the military, everything that happens or fails to happen in a unit
is the commander's fault. If you don't believe me, see what happened
to Colonel Bruce Emig, where some subordinate send some nukes off on a
B-52 recently. I doubt that the Colonel was even in the area.

So you've set up this argument: if the unit commanders were NOT aware,
they were incompetent.

And I reject that every unit was guilty of these
acts as Kerry claimed.

That's not what he said, Scott.

"These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis
with
the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

So starting from the President on down, and including Kerry himself,
how many war criminals do you think should be prosecuted?

ScottW

One time. This: "These were not isolated incidents but crimes
committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at
all levels of command" does not equal "every unit".

[Doug Reese[_2_]]

On Jul 4, 12:17*pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote:
On Jul 3, 8:29*pm, "ScottW" wrote:

This will do. EvenKerryno longer stands behind these
words which is the most telling condemnation of them all.

I suppose you're talking about this fine journalism:

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/03/12...n-kerry-confro...

Yeah, that's a good one. Their dimwitted reporter (or whatever he is)
asks Kerry:

" Does it bother you that the North Vietnamese created a memorial
dedicated to you?"

Of course the guy is a bold-faced liar, as there is no such memorial.

Doug Reese


LoL

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Jul 10, 10:02*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,





*"ScottW" wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Jul 9, 7:22 pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote:
On Jul 9, 7:25 pm, "ScottW" wrote:

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote in

roup
s.c
om...
On Jul 4, 12:21 am, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"

wrote:
On Jul 3, 8:29 pm, "ScottW" wrote:

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in

ogle
gro
ups.com...

You've wailed about this speech a few times recently. Where
are
the
"really bad parts" IYO?

********************************
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry,
1971
to
the
Senate Committee of Foreign Relations April 23, 1971

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say
that
several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at
which
over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated,
veterans
testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These
were
not
isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day
basis
with
the
full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is
impossible
to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the
emotions
in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving
their
experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of
what
this
country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped,
cut
off
ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to
human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up
bodies,
randomly shot at civilians,

This will do. Even Kerry no longer stands behind these
words which is the most telling condemnation of them all.

Or perhaps Kerry had talked with CIA operatives?

"The problem was, how do you find the people on the blacklist?
It's
not like you had their address and telephone number. The normal
procedure would be to go into a village and just grab someone
and
say,
'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so
afraid
they would say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the
informant,
put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could see,
put
commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him
through
the
village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your
head.'
Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door, and
say,
'April Fool, mother****er.' Whoever answered the door would get
wasted. As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a
Communist, including family members. Sometimes they'd come back
to
camp with ears to prove that they killed people."
- Lieutenant Vincent Okamoto, intelligence-liaison officer for
the
Phoenix Program for 2 months in 1968 and a recipient of the
Distinguished Service Cross. Wounded 3 times, he is the highest-
decorated Japanese-American veteran of the Vietnam War. He has
served
as president of the Japanese American Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Committee and as a Los Angeles Superior Court judge.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix...Hidequotedtext -

So, 2pid, we've seen that Kerry told the truth about the part you
said
bothered you the most.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all
levels of
command"

Here is the deal, 2pid. (You're too stupid to see this, but it's
true.)

In the military, everything that happens or fails to happen in a
unit
is the commander's fault. If you don't believe me, see what happened
to Colonel Bruce Emig, where some subordinate send some nukes off on
a
B-52 recently. I doubt that the Colonel was even in the area.

So you've set up this argument: if the unit commanders were NOT
aware,
they were incompetent.

And I reject that every unit was guilty of these
acts as Kerry claimed.

That's not what he said, Scott.

"These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day
basis
with
*the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

So starting from the President on down, and including Kerry himself,
how many war criminals do you think should be prosecuted?

ScottW

One time. *This: *"These were not isolated incidents but crimes
committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at
all levels of command" does not equal "every unit".

So many Vietnam Vets are not guilty of war crimes and their outrage
against Kerry's self admittedly "over the top" slander is justified.

If vets didn't commit the crimes, why would they be outraged when Kerry
didn't implicate them? He didn't say that all did it. He didn't say
that most did it.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Jul 10, 10:02 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,





"ScottW" wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message
.
..
In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Jul 9, 7:22 pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote:
On Jul 9, 7:25 pm, "ScottW" wrote:

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote
in

leg
roup
s.c
om...
On Jul 4, 12:21 am, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"

wrote:
On Jul 3, 8:29 pm, "ScottW" wrote:

"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote in
messagenews:6f306681-9572-4137-add8-5688f20451f2@s50g2000hsb
.go
ogle
gro
ups.com...

You've wailed about this speech a few times recently.
Where
are
the
"really bad parts" IYO?

********************************
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry,
1971
to
the
Senate Committee of Foreign Relations April 23, 1971

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and
say
that
several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at
which
over
150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated,
veterans
testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia.
These
were
not
isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day
basis
with
the
full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It
is
impossible
to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit -
the
emotions
in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving
their
experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror
of
what
this
country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally
raped,
cut
off
ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones
to
human
genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up
bodies,
randomly shot at civilians,

This will do. Even Kerry no longer stands behind these
words which is the most telling condemnation of them all.

Or perhaps Kerry had talked with CIA operatives?

"The problem was, how do you find the people on the
blacklist?
It's
not like you had their address and telephone number. The
normal
procedure would be to go into a village and just grab someone
and
say,
'Where's Nguyen so-and-so?' Half the time the people were so
afraid
they would say anything. Then a Phoenix team would take the
informant,
put a sandbag over his head, poke out two holes so he could
see,
put
commo wire around his neck like a long leash, and walk him
through
the
village and say, 'When we go by Nguyen's house scratch your
head.'
Then that night Phoenix would come back, knock on the door,
and
say,
'April Fool, mother****er.' Whoever answered the door would
get
wasted. As far as they were concerned whoever answered was a
Communist, including family members. Sometimes they'd come
back
to
camp with ears to prove that they killed people."
- Lieutenant Vincent Okamoto, intelligence-liaison officer
for
the
Phoenix Program for 2 months in 1968 and a recipient of the
Distinguished Service Cross. Wounded 3 times, he is the
highest-
decorated Japanese-American veteran of the Vietnam War. He
has
served
as president of the Japanese American Vietnam Veterans
Memorial
Committee and as a Los Angeles Superior Court judge.[3][4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix...Hidequotedtext -

So, 2pid, we've seen that Kerry told the truth about the part
you
said
bothered you the most.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all
levels of
command"

Here is the deal, 2pid. (You're too stupid to see this, but it's
true.)

In the military, everything that happens or fails to happen in a
unit
is the commander's fault. If you don't believe me, see what
happened
to Colonel Bruce Emig, where some subordinate send some nukes off
on
a
B-52 recently. I doubt that the Colonel was even in the area.

So you've set up this argument: if the unit commanders were NOT
aware,
they were incompetent.

And I reject that every unit was guilty of these
acts as Kerry claimed.

That's not what he said, Scott.

"These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a
day-to-day
basis
with
the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

So starting from the President on down, and including Kerry himself,
how many war criminals do you think should be prosecuted?

ScottW

One time. This: "These were not isolated incidents but crimes
committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at
all levels of command" does not equal "every unit".

So many Vietnam Vets are not guilty of war crimes and their outrage
against Kerry's self admittedly "over the top" slander is justified.

If vets didn't commit the crimes, why would they be outraged when Kerry
didn't implicate them?

How would you feel if someone claimed many Jr. College Music dept.
staff members are pedophiles.

If it were true, I'd applaud pointing it out. But the sample size isn't
comparable. Let's try this. The quality of teaching is often
criticized. Here's a logical statement: Many teachers in the U.S. are
bad teachers.



He didn't say that all did it. He didn't say
that most did it.

He didn't say that most did not. He said thousands did.

Why did you delete his confession?

But since Kerry himself has confessed to war crimes shouldn't
he be prosecuted?

http://www.aim.org/media-monitor/joh...ys-war-crimes/

Kerry had said, during an April 18, 1971, appearance on Meet the
Press: "There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say
that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands
of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in
free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I
used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and ordered to use,
which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-
destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary
to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva
Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established
policy by the government of the United States from the top down."

Kerry said those who condoned or engaged in such activities were war
criminals.

If the others are prosecuted, then Kerry should be as well.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 12, 10:20*am, "ScottW" wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message

2pid stated dumbly:

Kerry said those who condoned or engaged in such activities were war
criminals.

If the others are prosecuted, then Kerry should be as well.

Odd sentiment. *Sounds like if we can't catch and prosecute all the murderers
then all shall go free.

Spin, spin, spin.

I already gave you the answer:

"The investigators concluded that many of the war crimes indeed took
place.[15] Despite this, the Army decided not to pursue any
prosecutions.[16]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Force

It happened, just as Kerry said it did. My Lai, and other search and
destroy-type missions, as well as CIA asassinations also happened,

Kerry was right. Get over it, 2pid.

[Clyde Slick]

On 14 Iul, 19:56, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote:
On Jul 12, 10:20*am, "ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

2pid stated dumbly:

Kerry said those who condoned or engaged in such activities were war
criminals.

If the others are prosecuted, then Kerry should be as well.

Odd sentiment. *Sounds like if we can't catch and prosecute all the murderers
then all shall go free.

Spin, spin, spin.

I already gave you the answer:

"The investigators concluded that many of the war crimes indeed took
place.[15] Despite this, the Army decided not to pursue any
prosecutions.[16]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Force

It happened, just as Kerry said it did. My Lai, and other search and
destroy-type missions, as well as CIA asassinations also happened,

Kerry was right. Get over it, 2pid.

I believe that some atrocities took place, but that it was not
systematically
directed. We didn't want to deal with it when it happened, I think one
case was picked
to see how a prosecution would go over. They picked a case that was
pretty
bad and possible to document. They got one conviction. The Captain
over
Calley was acquited. After the war, with the situation in Viet Nam,
prosecutions to convictions would be a big problem

But yes, these happened and yes, they were covered up, but
no, there was not systematic coordination and direction
from on high. Nd not to the level Kerry complained about.

Also, I can't say if he was involved, his words seem to me he had
some
involvement, and certainly involvement in covering up.
As much as one can't prosecute him, one can't
prosecute anybody else right now, either.
It would have to be civilian trials, not military.
Maybe the Hague group can do it,
but I doubt there is enough evidence.

I think the truth lies somewhere between your position and Scott's.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 14, 7:38*pm, Clyde Slick wrote:
On 14 Iul, 19:56, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"





wrote:
On Jul 12, 10:20*am, "ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

2pid stated dumbly:

Kerry said those who condoned or engaged in such activities were war
criminals.

If the others are prosecuted, then Kerry should be as well.

Odd sentiment. *Sounds like if we can't catch and prosecute all the murderers
then all shall go free.

Spin, spin, spin.

I already gave you the answer:

"The investigators concluded that many of the war crimes indeed took
place.[15] Despite this, the Army decided not to pursue any
prosecutions.[16]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Force

It happened, just as Kerry said it did. My Lai, and other search and
destroy-type missions, as well as CIA asassinations also happened,

Kerry was right. Get over it, 2pid.

I believe that some atrocities took place, but that it was not
systematically
directed. We didn't want to deal with it when it happened, I think one
case was picked
to see how a prosecution would go over. They picked a case that was
pretty
bad and possible to document. They got one conviction. The Captain
over
Calley was acquited. After the war, with the situation in Viet Nam,
prosecutions to convictions would be a big problem

But yes, these happened and yes, they were covered up, but
no, there was not systematic coordination and direction
from on high. Nd not to the level Kerry complained about.

"Free-fire" zones would have to be set by a high headquarters. Tiger
Brigade and the CIA atrocities would also have orders from high
places.

If the COs of Tiger brigade were not aware, then they were
incompetent. Hackworth does not strike me as incompetent.

Also, I can't say if he was involved, his words seem to me he had
some
involvement, and certainly involvement in covering up.
As much as one can't prosecute him, one can't
prosecute anybody else right now, either.
It would have to be civilian trials, not military.
Maybe the Hague group can do it,
but I doubt there is enough evidence.

The military found evidence the atrocities occurred but did not choose
to prosecute.

I think the truth lies somewhere between your position and Scott's.

I am basing what I have said on documentable sources. 2pid, as usual,
is basing what he says on emotion and political ideology.

[Clyde Slick]

On 14 Iul, 21:03, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"
wrote:

I think the truth lies somewhere between your position and Scott's.

I am basing what I have said on documentable sources.

Kerry and Wiki?

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 14, 8:22*pm, Clyde Slick wrote:
On 14 Iul, 21:03, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"

wrote:
I think the truth lies somewhere between your position and Scott's.

I am basing what I have said on documentable sources.

Kerry and Wiki?

The Wiki sources are footnoted, which will refer you to the actual
cite, but I've also studied a lot about that war.

Also, as I said in another thread a few days ago, My Lai and other LOW
violations in Vietnam were a part of the OCS course.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jul 15, 2:09*pm, ScottW wrote:
On Jul 14, 4:56*pm, "Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!"





wrote:
On Jul 12, 10:20*am, "ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

2pid stated dumbly:

Kerry said those who condoned or engaged in such activities were war
criminals.

If the others are prosecuted, then Kerry should be as well.

Odd sentiment. *Sounds like if we can't catch and prosecute all the murderers
then all shall go free.

Spin, spin, spin.

I already gave you the answer:

"The investigators concluded that many of the war crimes indeed took
place.[15] Despite this, the Army decided not to pursue any
prosecutions.[16]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Force

It happened, just as Kerry said it did. My Lai, and other search and
destroy-type missions, as well as CIA asassinations also happened,

Kerry was right. Get over it, 2pid.

Kerry himself said his speech was "over the top".

I thought you were all about accuracy in quoting, 2pid. He said "a
‘little over the top’’. Even someone with comrehension skills as low
as yours are can see the difference.

That's not a repudiation, which is what you indicated he had done.
Here's what he said:

"Kerry said earlier this year that some of his statements in 1971 were
a ‘‘little over the top’’ but said some military policies in Vietnam
‘‘were not acceptable according to the laws of warfare, and everybody
knows that.’’

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...kerry/vietnam/

(You can also see some of your other favorite saws about Kerry
demolished here.)

Who do you suppose he meant by that?

That he wished he had chosen other, less emotional, or more accurate,
words.

Some things did happen.
Was it as endemic as Kerry stated?
Absolutely not.

I don't see where Kerry said it was.