[David F. Cox]

I am a group newbie and a self-confessed ignoramus.

I have a small collection of 78 rpm records bought second hand decades ago
that I am trying to share.

I have bought an ion usb turntable (all I can afford). and am using
Audacity.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidfcox/html/78s.html

Any references to on-line how-to guides appreciated.

I have a mission to save old 78 recordings, particularly old gospel,
skiffle, blues, jazz, big band for which more modern media does not seem
readily availiable.

If possible I would like to move towards collecting multiple wav recordings
together with a view to "stacking" them. That is intelligently adding the
signals together to improve the S/N ratio.

Stacking is a technique that was (is?) used in oil exploration, where the
inputs from multiple geophones located a distance apart are added together
to improve S/N ratio.

David F Cox

[Arny Krueger]

"David F. Cox" wrote in
message m
I am a group newbie and a self-confessed ignoramus.

I have a small collection of 78 rpm records bought second
hand decades ago that I am trying to share.

I have bought an ion usb turntable (all I can afford).
and am using Audacity.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidfcox/html/78s.html

Any references to on-line how-to guides appreciated.

I have a mission to save old 78 recordings, particularly
old gospel, skiffle, blues, jazz, big band for which more
modern media does not seem readily availiable.

If possible I would like to move towards collecting
multiple wav recordings together with a view to
"stacking" them. That is intelligently adding the signals
together to improve the S/N ratio.
Stacking is a technique that was (is?) used in oil
exploration, where the inputs from multiple geophones
located a distance apart are added together to improve
S/N ratio.

Not the same thing for a turntable, since the noise source (The LP) is
plagued with random noise, but rather the noise is mechanical and highly
repeatable in nature.

If you want to improve the noise from old recordings, there are computer
programs that can be highly effective at noise reduction.

[Scott Dorsey]

David F. Cox wrote:
I am a group newbie and a self-confessed ignoramus.

I have a small collection of 78 rpm records bought second hand decades ago
that I am trying to share.

I have bought an ion usb turntable (all I can afford). and am using
Audacity.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidfcox/html/78s.html

Any references to on-line how-to guides appreciated.

The problem with 78s is that there was basically a period of more than fifty
years during which they were made... and the technology over those fifty
years changed dramatically.

This means things like equalization curves and stylus sizes are dramatically
different between a disc cut in 1905 and one cut in 1950.

I think you will find the need to have a wide variety of stylus sizes will
kill your budget more than the table itself.

I think the ARSC would be a good first place to look as far as basic
information on disc transcription.

I have a mission to save old 78 recordings, particularly old gospel,
skiffle, blues, jazz, big band for which more modern media does not seem
readily availiable.

Note that a lot of those recordings may still be under copyright, even
if they have basically dropped off the face of the earth.

If possible I would like to move towards collecting multiple wav recordings
together with a view to "stacking" them. That is intelligently adding the
signals together to improve the S/N ratio.

I think you'll be surprised at how little good this does, because the noise
correlates in most cases. Now, stacking multiple pressings of the same
recording can be of help.

Most of the surface noise on the 78 is deliberate; it's the result of fillers
added to the material to keep steel needles sharp. And it's the same every
time you play it, because the particles don't move around.

This is why DJ pressings, vinylite pressings, and V-discs are so much more
valuable... because they are designed to be played with jeweled styli they
are not filled (or only lightly filled) and consequently much quieter.

The key to good playback of 78s is to get the right size stylus so that you
get the distortion as low as possible, and then to get the equalization
right. In the case of electric discs the equalization curves can often be
looked up; many manufacturers would use the same curves across a number of
matrices. In the case of acoustic discs it's often more a matter of taste
than anything else. Noise is easy to deal with these days with processing,
but distortion is not.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[David F. Cox]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"David F. Cox" wrote in
message m
I am a group newbie and a self-confessed ignoramus.

I have a small collection of 78 rpm records bought second
hand decades ago that I am trying to share.

I have bought an ion usb turntable (all I can afford).
and am using Audacity.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidfcox/html/78s.html

Any references to on-line how-to guides appreciated.

I have a mission to save old 78 recordings, particularly
old gospel, skiffle, blues, jazz, big band for which more
modern media does not seem readily availiable.

If possible I would like to move towards collecting
multiple wav recordings together with a view to
"stacking" them. That is intelligently adding the signals
together to improve the S/N ratio.
Stacking is a technique that was (is?) used in oil
exploration, where the inputs from multiple geophones
located a distance apart are added together to improve
S/N ratio.

Not the same thing for a turntable, since the noise source (The LP) is
plagued with random noise, but rather the noise is mechanical and highly
repeatable in nature.

If you want to improve the noise from old recordings, there are computer
programs that can be highly effective at noise reduction.

I was thereabouts at the dawn of such programs. As a general point of
information the noise in seismic recordings is also highly mechanical and
repeatable. Most of the recordings I was dealing with contained propellor
noise from the ships engines. The other main source of noise was multiple
echos. This occurs between rock layers, but is most severe as the signal
reflected from the sea bed and back from the sea surface. In the worst case
the original signal looked like a sine wave with noise to signal ratios of
80dB (as I recall). I go back to TIAC computers with 4K of 32 bit memory
that sorted that problem out.

Another question that bothered my over-active brain was could the fact that
there is crosstalk between the current groove and the previous and the next
be used, in extremely desperate cases, to fill in lost signal? It is another
form of distortion, a much reduced version of the seismic echo problems.

David F. Cox

[Scott Dorsey]

David F. Cox wrote:

Another question that bothered my over-active brain was could the fact that
there is crosstalk between the current groove and the previous and the next
be used, in extremely desperate cases, to fill in lost signal? It is another
form of distortion, a much reduced version of the seismic echo problems.

No, it's much more of an issue with LPs than with 78s, and for the most part
it's only lower frequency stuff that leaks.

Most 78s were cut constant pitch.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Adrian Tuddenham]

David F. Cox wrote:

I am a group newbie and a self-confessed ignoramus.

I have a small collection of 78 rpm records bought second hand decades ago
that I am trying to share.

I have bought an ion usb turntable (all I can afford). and am using
Audacity.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidfcox/html/78s.html

Any references to on-line how-to guides appreciated.

I have a mission to save old 78 recordings, particularly old gospel,
skiffle, blues, jazz, big band for which more modern media does not seem
readily availiable.

If possible I would like to move towards collecting multiple wav recordings
together with a view to "stacking" them. That is intelligently adding the
signals together to improve the S/N ratio.

Stacking is a technique that was (is?) used in oil exploration, where the
inputs from multiple geophones located a distance apart are added together
to improve S/N ratio.

The 'cake-stand' for playing and averaging-out the noise levels of
several pressings of the same recording was an idea put forward by Peter
Copeland of the (UK) National Sound Archive.

Although he proposed it well over 10 years ago and made many false
starts on building one, the concept was never turned into to a fully
workable piece of kit.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[David F. Cox]

"Adrian Tuddenham" wrote in message
lid.invalid...
David F. Cox wrote:

I am a group newbie and a self-confessed ignoramus.

I have a small collection of 78 rpm records bought second hand decades
ago
that I am trying to share.

I have bought an ion usb turntable (all I can afford). and am using
Audacity.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidfcox/html/78s.html

Any references to on-line how-to guides appreciated.

I have a mission to save old 78 recordings, particularly old gospel,
skiffle, blues, jazz, big band for which more modern media does not seem
readily availiable.

If possible I would like to move towards collecting multiple wav
recordings
together with a view to "stacking" them. That is intelligently adding the
signals together to improve the S/N ratio.

Stacking is a technique that was (is?) used in oil exploration, where the
inputs from multiple geophones located a distance apart are added
together
to improve S/N ratio.

The 'cake-stand' for playing and averaging-out the noise levels of
several pressings of the same recording was an idea put forward by Peter
Copeland of the (UK) National Sound Archive.

Although he proposed it well over 10 years ago and made many false
starts on building one, the concept was never turned into to a fully
workable piece of kit.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

I had the idea around 1970, and have yet to make my first false start ( :-)

Are there any public records of the work dane and the problems that could
not be solved, or why the idea is flawed?

I have two copies of "Basin Street Blues" by Louis Armstrong on 78 to play
with. (Up until the time I acquired them I had rather dismissed him as a
being an entertainer rather than a musician. It is a recording that inspired
me, and one I have not heard anywhere else, though I am sure it must be on
many collections.)

I have just started perusing the Audacity manual. It looks like the super
geeky stuff has been done and is open source. Besides that there is
apparently a Lisp like programming language that works with Audacity. It is
just possible that the required tools are in reach.

------
Thanks to all that have so far replied, I am learning lots.

David F. Cox

[Adrian Tuddenham]

David F. Cox wrote:

"Adrian Tuddenham" wrote in message
lid.invalid...
David F. Cox wrote:

I am a group newbie and a self-confessed ignoramus.

I have a small collection of 78 rpm records bought second hand decades
ago
that I am trying to share.

I have bought an ion usb turntable (all I can afford). and am using
Audacity.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidfcox/html/78s.html

Any references to on-line how-to guides appreciated.

I have a mission to save old 78 recordings, particularly old gospel,
skiffle, blues, jazz, big band for which more modern media does not seem
readily availiable.

If possible I would like to move towards collecting multiple wav
recordings
together with a view to "stacking" them. That is intelligently adding the
signals together to improve the S/N ratio.

Stacking is a technique that was (is?) used in oil exploration, where the
inputs from multiple geophones located a distance apart are added
together
to improve S/N ratio.

The 'cake-stand' for playing and averaging-out the noise levels of
several pressings of the same recording was an idea put forward by Peter
Copeland of the (UK) National Sound Archive.

Although he proposed it well over 10 years ago and made many false
starts on building one, the concept was never turned into to a fully
workable piece of kit.



I had the idea around 1970, and have yet to make my first false start ( :-)

Are there any public records of the work dane and the problems that could
not be solved, or why the idea is flawed?

Sadly Peter has died, but he did get as far as making one recording of
two synchronised copied of "The Ying-Tong" song by The Goons. The
reason he chose that was because an LP version existed which had been
cut from direct from tape (not dubbed from the 78s) which could be used
for comparison purposes. When the synch of the two 78s drifted
slightly, you could hear the hiss from the master tape going in and out
of phase.

At the time, the only easily-available phase synchronising system was
one made for de-skewing stereo channels in a broadcasting cartridge
player. Peter had the idea of minimising the initial phase error by
playing the copies simultaneously on a 'cake stand' stack of turntables
with identical arms, which he proposed fitting to a Scully recording
lathe.

I believe some written records were made of Peter's experiments and
these should be in the posession of the British Library National Sound
Archive. You could contact them and ask.

One problem to watch out for is cyclical wow which can result not only
once per rev from a badly-centred disc, but twice per rev if it has been
stored badly or was pressed from a stretched stamper. Another problem
arises if the two copies are not from the same metalwork. It is not
unusual to find two different versions af a best-sellling record where a
re-cut was necessary after the metalwork got damaged - you would have a
hell of a job synchronising those.


I have two copies of "Basin Street Blues" by Louis Armstrong on 78 to play
with. (Up until the time I acquired them I had rather dismissed him as a
being an entertainer rather than a musician. It is a recording that inspired
me, and one I have not heard anywhere else, though I am sure it must be on
many collections.)

The simpest way of de-crackling those is to pay to have a vinyl pressing
made from the metals; someone on the left of the Herring Pond can
probably tell you who owns them. The cake-stand method is only really
viable for the situation where the metalwork has been lost but many
pressings still exist.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Paul Stamler]

"David F. Cox" wrote in message
m...

I have a mission to save old 78 recordings, particularly old gospel,
skiffle, blues, jazz, big band for which more modern media does not seem
readily availiable.

May I refer you to the following labels: Document, Yazoo. Lots of blues and
gospel on there, not so much skiffle, jazz or big band. There are, however,
equivalent labels for those styles.

If possible I would like to move towards collecting multiple wav
recordings
together with a view to "stacking" them. That is intelligently adding the
signals together to improve the S/N ratio.

Stacking is a technique that was (is?) used in oil exploration, where the
inputs from multiple geophones located a distance apart are added together
to improve S/N ratio.

It may work in oil exploration, but it won't on 78s. The S/N is limited by
the discs themselves, not the technique used to play them.

Peace,
Paul

[Paul Stamler]

"David F. Cox" wrote in message
om...

Another question that bothered my over-active brain was could the fact
that
there is crosstalk between the current groove and the previous and the
next
be used, in extremely desperate cases, to fill in lost signal?

What do you mean by "lost signal"?

Peace,
Paul

[David F. Cox]

"Adrian Tuddenham" wrote in message
alid.invalid...
David F. Cox wrote:

"Adrian Tuddenham" wrote in message
lid.invalid...
David F. Cox wrote:

I am a group newbie and a self-confessed ignoramus.

I have a small collection of 78 rpm records bought second hand decades
ago
that I am trying to share.

I have bought an ion usb turntable (all I can afford). and am using
Audacity.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidfcox/html/78s.html

Any references to on-line how-to guides appreciated.

I have a mission to save old 78 recordings, particularly old gospel,
skiffle, blues, jazz, big band for which more modern media does not
seem
readily availiable.

If possible I would like to move towards collecting multiple wav
recordings
together with a view to "stacking" them. That is intelligently adding
the
signals together to improve the S/N ratio.

Stacking is a technique that was (is?) used in oil exploration, where
the
inputs from multiple geophones located a distance apart are added
together
to improve S/N ratio.

The 'cake-stand' for playing and averaging-out the noise levels of
several pressings of the same recording was an idea put forward by
Peter
Copeland of the (UK) National Sound Archive.

Although he proposed it well over 10 years ago and made many false
starts on building one, the concept was never turned into to a fully
workable piece of kit.



I had the idea around 1970, and have yet to make my first false start (
:-)

Are there any public records of the work dane and the problems that could
not be solved, or why the idea is flawed?

Sadly Peter has died, but he did get as far as making one recording of
two synchronised copied of "The Ying-Tong" song by The Goons. The
reason he chose that was because an LP version existed which had been
cut from direct from tape (not dubbed from the 78s) which could be used
for comparison purposes. When the synch of the two 78s drifted
slightly, you could hear the hiss from the master tape going in and out
of phase.

At the time, the only easily-available phase synchronising system was
one made for de-skewing stereo channels in a broadcasting cartridge
player. Peter had the idea of minimising the initial phase error by
playing the copies simultaneously on a 'cake stand' stack of turntables
with identical arms, which he proposed fitting to a Scully recording
lathe.

I believe some written records were made of Peter's experiments and
these should be in the posession of the British Library National Sound
Archive. You could contact them and ask.

One problem to watch out for is cyclical wow which can result not only
once per rev from a badly-centred disc, but twice per rev if it has been
stored badly or was pressed from a stretched stamper. Another problem
arises if the two copies are not from the same metalwork. It is not
unusual to find two different versions af a best-sellling record where a
re-cut was necessary after the metalwork got damaged - you would have a
hell of a job synchronising those.


I have two copies of "Basin Street Blues" by Louis Armstrong on 78 to
play
with. (Up until the time I acquired them I had rather dismissed him as a
being an entertainer rather than a musician. It is a recording that
inspired
me, and one I have not heard anywhere else, though I am sure it must be
on
many collections.)

The simpest way of de-crackling those is to pay to have a vinyl pressing
made from the metals; someone on the left of the Herring Pond can
probably tell you who owns them. The cake-stand method is only really
viable for the situation where the metalwork has been lost but many
pressings still exist.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

"pay" ( :-)

The last few years have been ridden with disasters for my family. I have
just renewed my interest in this project. When I looked at the net for info
about artists and tracks years ago I found practically nothing about many of
them. Searching now has uncovered loads of info and even freely availiable
copies of many of them on the net. It is looking like most of my intentions
are not required.

There is one recording I have of a children's choir that has plain white
labels both sides bought locally. It may mean something to somebody, and
could be the only unique contribution I can make, which, I suppose, is good
news.

The other mystery is the King Oliver recording dated 1918. One web site says
no recordings were made at that time. This, naturally, is one of the records
I cannot now find. The other is Louis Armstrong singing "I double dare you".

Come to think of it Joe Venuti is on the obverse of Satchmo's Basin Street
Blues on the Parlophone label - perhaps if I go back and look at the other
sides ....

Sorry - more than enough babble

Thanks for your input.

David F. Cox

..

[David F. Cox]

"Paul Stamler" wrote in message
...
"David F. Cox" wrote in message
om...

Another question that bothered my over-active brain was could the fact
that
there is crosstalk between the current groove and the previous and the
next
be used, in extremely desperate cases, to fill in lost signal?

What do you mean by "lost signal"?

Peace,
Paul

I meant signal lost by damage. I have learned I am off-beam again as far as
78s are concerned. I remembered hearing the next track during lead-in and
have now learned that this only applies to vinyl.

It appears that the world has moved on considerably since my last look at
the situation a few years ago. Most of the tracks I most wanted to share
have now been uploaded by others. The innovations I wanted to explore have
been explored. This is all good.

The one record I most wanted to upload I cannot find, and I have not so far
found it on the Net. To add to my misery I have found one site that tells me
that no such recording exists.

Thanks to all that have responded - I have learned a lot in a very short
space of time.

David F. Cox

[Gerardus]

David F. Cox said...

The last few years have been ridden with disasters for my family. I have
just renewed my interest in this project. When I looked at the net for info
about artists and tracks years ago I found practically nothing about many of
them. Searching now has uncovered loads of info and even freely availiable
copies of many of them on the net. It is looking like most of my intentions
are not required.

There is one recording I have of a children's choir that has plain white
labels both sides bought locally. It may mean something to somebody, and
could be the only unique contribution I can make, which, I suppose, is good
news.

The other mystery is the King Oliver recording dated 1918. One web site says
no recordings were made at that time. This, naturally, is one of the records
I cannot now find. The other is Louis Armstrong singing "I double dare you".

Come to think of it Joe Venuti is on the obverse of Satchmo's Basin Street
Blues on the Parlophone label - perhaps if I go back and look at the other
sides ....

Sorry - more than enough babble

Thanks for your input.

David F. Cox

.



What about sending ripped 78s to CD over the world and wait for the best return ?


Gerardus

[Paul Stamler]

"David F. Cox" wrote in message
m...

The one record I most wanted to upload I cannot find, and I have not so
far
found it on the Net. To add to my misery I have found one site that tells
me
that no such recording exists.

And the recording is...?

Peace,
Paul

[Scott Dorsey]

Paul Stamler wrote:
"David F. Cox" wrote in message
om...

The one record I most wanted to upload I cannot find, and I have not so
far
found it on the Net. To add to my misery I have found one site that tells
me
that no such recording exists.

And the recording is...?

It was made on the grassy knoll.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[David F. Cox]

"Paul Stamler" wrote in message
...
"David F. Cox" wrote in message
m...

The one record I most wanted to upload I cannot find, and I have not so
far
found it on the Net. To add to my misery I have found one site that tells
me
that no such recording exists.

And the recording is...?

Peace,
Paul

Apologies ( :-)
Things have so moved on since I did my web searches before our last house
move. Now there are Jazz sites with massive catalogs of tracks that can be
heard for free. Amongst them was the track I was talking about. I evidently
remembered the date wrong. It was 1923 not 1918. I also learned:

" one of Ellington's most grandly sensual works is his early blues piece
"Creole Love Call." This 1927 classic was inspired by "Camp Meeting Blues,"
a 1923 recording by an earlier Crescent City trumpet monarch, King Oliver.
When Ellington's version was released, Oliver tried unsuccessfully to sue
the record label. "

http://www.jazz-on-line.com/King_Oliver.htm

It looks like I have been wasting this groups time, everything I wanted to
do has already adequately been done.

Back to working on my own songs. Probably too much of them has also already
been done. ( :-)

Thanks again

David F. Cox

[David F. Cox]

"Gerardus" wrote in message
m...
David F. Cox said...

The last few years have been ridden with disasters for my family. I have
just renewed my interest in this project. When I looked at the net for
info
about artists and tracks years ago I found practically nothing about many
of
them. Searching now has uncovered loads of info and even freely
availiable
copies of many of them on the net. It is looking like most of my
intentions
are not required.

There is one recording I have of a children's choir that has plain white
labels both sides bought locally. It may mean something to somebody, and
could be the only unique contribution I can make, which, I suppose, is
good
news.

The other mystery is the King Oliver recording dated 1918. One web site
says
no recordings were made at that time. This, naturally, is one of the
records
I cannot now find. The other is Louis Armstrong singing "I double dare
you".

Come to think of it Joe Venuti is on the obverse of Satchmo's Basin
Street
Blues on the Parlophone label - perhaps if I go back and look at the
other
sides ....

Sorry - more than enough babble

Thanks for your input.

David F. Cox

.



What about sending ripped 78s to CD over the world and wait for the best
return ?


Gerardus

It had occurred to me.

Like everybody else I have music that does it for me. I have felt like
electricity was running down my spine listening to live blues and jazz
performances by the likes of Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee and Ottilie
Patterson and virtual unknowns in back street bars. I would like to share
that music with those that have never heard it, pro bono.There are more and
more online merchants doing a better job than I could at that with the
American artists. There is actually quite a bit of British work that is
worth a listen too, that is less well known.

One of my main hobbies is Modern Jive dancing. I have put some samples of
Ottilie online for DJ's to try and get her some play time at dances, once
again pro bono. I think her early work, before her voice was damaged, is
just about out of mechanical copyright.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidfc...l/ottilie.html

I do have some self-interest, I am seeking permission from collaborators to
get some of my own songs "out there".

David F. Cox.