[Mike Rivers]

It's been time to update my old 266 MHz Pentium studio computer for a
few years now. After years of indecision and not being able to find out
enough about what was available to decide what components to buy, I bit
the bullet and bought a ready-to-go brand new Dell for $400 at Micro
Center. It had enough power to do everything I needed, came with WinXP
so no Vista hassles, and all the software I loaded on it ran just fine.
But the rub was that it was shy on ports that I needed to integrate it
into my working environment and the short story is that I eventually
gave up filling holes and finding "should work" solutions that didn't,
and my neighbor bought it from me for the price I paid for it.

So I'm back in the market. What is there to know about "chipsets" and
why should I choose one over another? We have P31, P35, G33, X38, X48
and probably some others. One difference seems to be that some include
VGA graphics and some don't, requiring a separate graphics board. There
also seems to be a difference in what types of memory they'll talk to.
Do I need to care?

Also, are there still motherboards to avoid, either because of
reliability or incompatibility with certain software? I know there was
an issue with some electrolytic capacitors (apparently made with the
wrong formula for the electrolyte) that failed in a short time, but
apparently they've all vanished from the market. Anything else?

I'd really like to buy everything from a local vendor so it'll be
convenient to return anything that doesn't work right but all we have
around here is Micro Center. They turn over their stock so fast that by
the time I research what they have and decide to make a purchase, they
no longer have it in stock. So I'll probably have to buy from an on-line
vendor. I know that NewEgg.com is pretty popular and has a good
reputation for fair prices and good service.

I've been looking at MWave.com, the attraction there being that when you
order a motherboard, memory, and processor from them, for ten bucks
extra, they'll put them together and test the assembly. And if you buy
enough stuff to make up a full computer, for $80 they'll put it all
together and test it. I'm sure I can put it all together myself, but
knowing that I won't have to send something back is probably worth the
extra $80.

Yesterday's shopping list (which might be good for a week or two before
something goes out of style g) is:

Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3L (P35 chipset) motherboard
2 GB DDR2/800 RAM
E6750 CPU
Zalman CNPS7700-CU fancy fan
ATI Radeon HD3450 PCI-e16 graphics board
250 GB SATA 7200 RPM hard drive
Cheap SATA Lightscribe DVD drive
Antec Sonata Designer 500 case/power supply

The motherboard has the two PS/2 mouse and keyboard ports that I need
for compatibility with my KVM switch and Mackie HDR, a parallel port for
my Sequoia dongle. Those were the biggest hangups with the Dell, which I
couldn't resolve with several different adapters. There are three plain
PCI slots so I can install my Lynx L22 card and a Firewire card that
works with the Firewire audio devices that I have (I put that in the
Dell and they were all happy there) and still have one PCI slot left
over if I need it.

The whole thing comes out at about $615 without assembly or OS, another
$165 ready to go, which seems pretty fair to me. MWave is in California
so it'll have to come all the way across the country. Their shipping
charge is $45, more than the local tax would be (I guess it's not
expensive enough to be the other way around).

Does any or all of this makes sense? If I were to get one of the "Audio
preconfigured" systems from places like Swee****er, Rain, or that other
place that pops up often that's the same name (but completely different
company) as the company that makes microphones, that I don't remember,
I'll get what they want to give me, and the price seems to be 25% or so
higher than choosing the parts and paying for assembly.

Is this as good a motherboard as any other one? If not, why (other than
that YOU chose something else) would another one be better? Is the 2.66
GHz CPU a reasonable level between bottom of the heap (which the Dell
had) and cutting edge? And does the P35 chipset do what it needs to do?



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Julien BH]

On May 13, 8:09 am, Mike Rivers wrote:
It's been time to update my old 266 MHz Pentium studio computer for a
few years now. After years of indecision and not being able to find out
enough about what was available to decide what components to buy, I bit
the bullet and bought a ready-to-go brand new Dell for $400 at Micro
Center. It had enough power to do everything I needed, came with WinXP
so no Vista hassles, and all the software I loaded on it ran just fine.
But the rub was that it was shy on ports that I needed to integrate it
into my working environment and the short story is that I eventually
gave up filling holes and finding "should work" solutions that didn't,
and my neighbor bought it from me for the price I paid for it.

So I'm back in the market. What is there to know about "chipsets" and
why should I choose one over another? We have P31, P35, G33, X38, X48
and probably some others. One difference seems to be that some include
VGA graphics and some don't, requiring a separate graphics board. There
also seems to be a difference in what types of memory they'll talk to.
Do I need to care?

Also, are there still motherboards to avoid, either because of
reliability or incompatibility with certain software? I know there was
an issue with some electrolytic capacitors (apparently made with the
wrong formula for the electrolyte) that failed in a short time, but
apparently they've all vanished from the market. Anything else?

I'd really like to buy everything from a local vendor so it'll be
convenient to return anything that doesn't work right but all we have
around here is Micro Center. They turn over their stock so fast that by
the time I research what they have and decide to make a purchase, they
no longer have it in stock. So I'll probably have to buy from an on-line
vendor. I know that NewEgg.com is pretty popular and has a good
reputation for fair prices and good service.

I've been looking at MWave.com, the attraction there being that when you
order a motherboard, memory, and processor from them, for ten bucks
extra, they'll put them together and test the assembly. And if you buy
enough stuff to make up a full computer, for $80 they'll put it all
together and test it. I'm sure I can put it all together myself, but
knowing that I won't have to send something back is probably worth the
extra $80.

Yesterday's shopping list (which might be good for a week or two before
something goes out of style g) is:

Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3L (P35 chipset) motherboard
2 GB DDR2/800 RAM
E6750 CPU
Zalman CNPS7700-CU fancy fan
ATI Radeon HD3450 PCI-e16 graphics board
250 GB SATA 7200 RPM hard drive
Cheap SATA Lightscribe DVD drive
Antec Sonata Designer 500 case/power supply

The motherboard has the two PS/2 mouse and keyboard ports that I need
for compatibility with my KVM switch and Mackie HDR, a parallel port for
my Sequoia dongle. Those were the biggest hangups with the Dell, which I
couldn't resolve with several different adapters. There are three plain
PCI slots so I can install my Lynx L22 card and a Firewire card that
works with the Firewire audio devices that I have (I put that in the
Dell and they were all happy there) and still have one PCI slot left
over if I need it.

The whole thing comes out at about $615 without assembly or OS, another
$165 ready to go, which seems pretty fair to me. MWave is in California
so it'll have to come all the way across the country. Their shipping
charge is $45, more than the local tax would be (I guess it's not
expensive enough to be the other way around).

Does any or all of this makes sense? If I were to get one of the "Audio
preconfigured" systems from places like Swee****er, Rain, or that other
place that pops up often that's the same name (but completely different
company) as the company that makes microphones, that I don't remember,
I'll get what they want to give me, and the price seems to be 25% or so
higher than choosing the parts and paying for assembly.

Is this as good a motherboard as any other one? If not, why (other than
that YOU chose something else) would another one be better? Is the 2.66
GHz CPU a reasonable level between bottom of the heap (which the Dell
had) and cutting edge? And does the P35 chipset do what it needs to do?

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3L (P35 chipset) motherboard
GREAT motherboard. I would suggest the DS3 (R) if you want your HD in
RAID (google RAID 0 or 1 if you don't know what it is - VERY cool)

2 GB DDR2/800 RAM
2GB should be way enough (you don't need 800, more like 667 mhz since
that's the speed your CPU needs)

E6750 CPU
I'd change that CPU to the newer (and better one - also lower priced)
the Intel Core 2 Duo E8400

Zalman CNPS7700-CU fancy fan
You don't need this if you don't overclock... spend your cash
elsewhere

ATI Radeon HD3450 PCI-e16 graphics board
Whatever... for audio you don't need a good card (this is NOT a good
card, but will do if you don't play games)

250 GB SATA 7200 RPM hard drive
Try this TIMES 2 for raid

Cheap SATA Lightscribe DVD drive
Why lightscribe? anyway that's up to you. That said, you need special
lightscribe disks to have that feature enabled. (they cost more)

Antec Sonata Designer 500 case/power supply
Great case Same as me.

[Julien BH]

On May 13, 9:06 am, Julien BH wrote:
On May 13, 8:09 am, Mike Rivers wrote:



It's been time to update my old 266 MHz Pentium studio computer for a
few years now. After years of indecision and not being able to find out
enough about what was available to decide what components to buy, I bit
the bullet and bought a ready-to-go brand new Dell for $400 at Micro
Center. It had enough power to do everything I needed, came with WinXP
so no Vista hassles, and all the software I loaded on it ran just fine.
But the rub was that it was shy on ports that I needed to integrate it
into my working environment and the short story is that I eventually
gave up filling holes and finding "should work" solutions that didn't,
and my neighbor bought it from me for the price I paid for it.

So I'm back in the market. What is there to know about "chipsets" and
why should I choose one over another? We have P31, P35, G33, X38, X48
and probably some others. One difference seems to be that some include
VGA graphics and some don't, requiring a separate graphics board. There
also seems to be a difference in what types of memory they'll talk to.
Do I need to care?

Also, are there still motherboards to avoid, either because of
reliability or incompatibility with certain software? I know there was
an issue with some electrolytic capacitors (apparently made with the
wrong formula for the electrolyte) that failed in a short time, but
apparently they've all vanished from the market. Anything else?

I'd really like to buy everything from a local vendor so it'll be
convenient to return anything that doesn't work right but all we have
around here is Micro Center. They turn over their stock so fast that by
the time I research what they have and decide to make a purchase, they
no longer have it in stock. So I'll probably have to buy from an on-line
vendor. I know that NewEgg.com is pretty popular and has a good
reputation for fair prices and good service.

I've been looking at MWave.com, the attraction there being that when you
order a motherboard, memory, and processor from them, for ten bucks
extra, they'll put them together and test the assembly. And if you buy
enough stuff to make up a full computer, for $80 they'll put it all
together and test it. I'm sure I can put it all together myself, but
knowing that I won't have to send something back is probably worth the
extra $80.

Yesterday's shopping list (which might be good for a week or two before
something goes out of style g) is:

Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3L (P35 chipset) motherboard
2 GB DDR2/800 RAM
E6750 CPU
Zalman CNPS7700-CU fancy fan
ATI Radeon HD3450 PCI-e16 graphics board
250 GB SATA 7200 RPM hard drive
Cheap SATA Lightscribe DVD drive
Antec Sonata Designer 500 case/power supply

The motherboard has the two PS/2 mouse and keyboard ports that I need
for compatibility with my KVM switch and Mackie HDR, a parallel port for
my Sequoia dongle. Those were the biggest hangups with the Dell, which I
couldn't resolve with several different adapters. There are three plain
PCI slots so I can install my Lynx L22 card and a Firewire card that
works with the Firewire audio devices that I have (I put that in the
Dell and they were all happy there) and still have one PCI slot left
over if I need it.

The whole thing comes out at about $615 without assembly or OS, another
$165 ready to go, which seems pretty fair to me. MWave is in California
so it'll have to come all the way across the country. Their shipping
charge is $45, more than the local tax would be (I guess it's not
expensive enough to be the other way around).

Does any or all of this makes sense? If I were to get one of the "Audio
preconfigured" systems from places like Swee****er, Rain, or that other
place that pops up often that's the same name (but completely different
company) as the company that makes microphones, that I don't remember,
I'll get what they want to give me, and the price seems to be 25% or so
higher than choosing the parts and paying for assembly.

Is this as good a motherboard as any other one? If not, why (other than
that YOU chose something else) would another one be better? Is the 2.66
GHz CPU a reasonable level between bottom of the heap (which the Dell
had) and cutting edge? And does the P35 chipset do what it needs to do?

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3L (P35 chipset) motherboard
GREAT motherboard. I would suggest the DS3 (R) if you want your HD in
RAID (google RAID 0 or 1 if you don't know what it is - VERY cool)

2 GB DDR2/800 RAM
2GB should be way enough (you don't need 800, more like 667 mhz since
that's the speed your CPU needs)

E6750 CPU
I'd change that CPU to the newer (and better one - also lower priced)
the Intel Core 2 Duo E8400

Zalman CNPS7700-CU fancy fan
You don't need this if you don't overclock... spend your cash
elsewhere

ATI Radeon HD3450 PCI-e16 graphics board
Whatever... for audio you don't need a good card (this is NOT a good
card, but will do if you don't play games)

250 GB SATA 7200 RPM hard drive
Try this TIMES 2 for raid

Cheap SATA Lightscribe DVD drive
Why lightscribe? anyway that's up to you. That said, you need special
lightscribe disks to have that feature enabled. (they cost more)

Antec Sonata Designer 500 case/power supply
Great case Same as me.

P.s.: The P35 chipset is nice. Not top of the line, but a great all
rounder.

[Steve L.]

Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3L (P35 chipset) motherboard
GREAT motherboard. I would suggest the DS3 (R) if you want your HD in
RAID (google RAID 0 or 1 if you don't know what it is - VERY cool)
onboard RAID is software controlled .. if you want real RAID get a
hardware controller like this one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16816116030

2 GB DDR2/800 RAM
2GB should be way enough (you don't need 800, more like 667 mhz since
that's the speed your CPU needs)

E6750 CPU
I'd change that CPU to the newer (and better one - also lower priced)
the Intel Core 2 Duo E8400
I have this chip and the xeon 3110 (which is the same chip that's been
sorted for server use .. presumably more reliable) the benefit of these
new 45nm chips is less heat and they have the new instruction set for
future applications to take advantage of. Plus the bigger cache couldn't
hurt (6MB) and they're relatively cheap for the performance. One other
benefit is they overclock close to 4gigs on air no sweat so if you need
more power down the road get a better then stock fan and clock up.

Zalman CNPS7700-CU fancy fan
You don't need this if you don't overclock... spend your cash
elsewhere
the only reason you may want a new fan is noise. i always get an
aftermarket fan so i don't know how loud the stock fans are.

ATI Radeon HD3450 PCI-e16 graphics board
Whatever... for audio you don't need a good card (this is NOT a good
card, but will do if you don't play games)
sometimes graphic cards can limit the accessability to the adjoining pci
slot. make sure it's not one that takes up two spaces. Also if noise is a
consideration .. look for a passive cooled card.

250 GB SATA 7200 RPM hard drive
Try this TIMES 2 for raid
i also think it's a good idea to have a seperate hard drive for files in
a RAID 1 (mirror) in case a drive fails your data is safe. this is not
however a back up scenario .. just redundant protection from failure.
If you go raid0 for the os and use the onboard controller i think that's
ok if you're prepared to reload the os and proggies when a drive fails.
this is why it's good to have a seperate HD for files. normally i
wouldn't suggest raid if you have a good back up procedure but i don't
trust the current QC of todays manufacturing. you can up the reliability
odds by getting enterprise quality drives made for severs.


Cheap SATA Lightscribe DVD drive
Why lightscribe? anyway that's up to you. That said, you need special
lightscribe disks to have that feature enabled. (they cost more)
lightscribe labeling is a good idea but last i remember it's pretty slow.
i get the printble cd's and either print on them or write on them with a
sharpie.

Antec Sonata Designer 500 case/power supply
good case but it's a little shallow. i like the server models.. i have
one like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129020

it's really deep so if you have any full length cards they won't run into
your other components. These aren't made to be quiet though. i used some
construction material (ice dam preventer) to dampen the vibration from
hard drives and fans. they sell the same stuff specifically for this
purpose.

Great case Same as me.

[Steve L.]

"Steve L." said in response to my bewilderment

Antec Sonata Designer 500 case/power supply
good case but it's a little shallow. i like the server models.. i have
one like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129020


actually i have this one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129027

[Richard Crowley]

"Mike Rivers" wrote ...
So I'm back in the market. What is there to know about "chipsets" and why
should I choose one over another? We have P31, P35, G33, X38, X48 and
probably some others. One difference seems to be that some include VGA
graphics and some don't, requiring a separate graphics board. There also
seems to be a difference in what types of memory they'll talk to. Do I
need to care?

Here where we make the chips, we have favorite chipsets.
The current favorites a P35, X38 and X48

Also, are there still motherboards to avoid, either because of reliability
or incompatibility with certain software? I know there was an issue with
some electrolytic capacitors (apparently made with the wrong formula for
the electrolyte) that failed in a short time, but apparently they've all
vanished from the market. Anything else?

And our long-time favorite motherboards are ASUS.
Currently P5KC & P5KE

I'd really like to buy everything from a local vendor so it'll be
convenient to return anything that doesn't work right but all we have
around here is Micro Center. They turn over their stock so fast that by
the time I research what they have and decide to make a purchase, they no
longer have it in stock. So I'll probably have to buy from an on-line
vendor. I know that NewEgg.com is pretty popular and has a good reputation
for fair prices and good service.

I'm getting a Yorkfield Quad Core Extreme chip and having a
system assembled by my local shop. Here are the current
recommended budget and high-end system configs...
(without the CPU of your choice)

Budget PC Parts List
Antec ATX Case (with 400W PS) - $100
Mother Board (ASUS P5K-V with Video built-in) - $150
CPU Fan (Zalman CNPS9500 AT) - $50
Memory DDR2 800 2GB unbuffered (two 1GB modules) - $ 50
Hard Disk (160G SATA300 7200RPM 8Mb) - $60
DVD-ROM X16 - $26
DVD X16 Dual Layer burner - $45
Keyboard PS2 - $6
Optical Mouse 3Button + scroll - $6
Speakers (2.1 Altec Lansing) - $20
MS Windows XP full version (Home Edition)
or Window Vista Home Edition (Upgrade) - $99
Total $ 552

High Performance PC Parts List
ATX Case (Antec 900 ) - $115
Power Supply (Antec Truepower 650w ) - $127
Mother Board (ASUS P5E X38) - $225
CPU Fan (Zalman CNPS9700) - $68
RAM 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2 1066 SDRAM Unbuffered - $115
Two Hard Disks (320G SATA300 7200RPM 16Mb)
RAID0 for best performance - $180
DVD-ROM - $26
DVD X16 Dual Layer burner - $45
Keyboard (Logitech Gaming) - $68
Optical Mouse (Logitech G5) - $55
Speakers (5.1 Altec Lansing) - $60
MS Windows XP Pro or Vista Business Edition - $150
Hi Performance Video Card (NVIDIA 9800GTX) - $350
Total $1,584

Disclaimer: These are compilations of our current personal
preferences and not official recommendations of our employer!

[Mike Rivers]

Julien BH wrote:

Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3L (P35 chipset) motherboard
GREAT motherboard. I would suggest the DS3 (R) if you want your HD in
RAID (google RAID 0 or 1 if you don't know what it is - VERY cool)

That's the kind of stuff that I'd like to know. I thought about the RAID
option, but I really don't think I'll be using the computer enough to
justify the redundancy of RAID1, and I definitely don't want RAID0.

2GB should be way enough (you don't need 800, more like 667 mhz since
that's the speed your CPU needs)

That'll save a couple of bucks

E6750 CPU
I'd change that CPU to the newer (and better one - also lower priced)
the Intel Core 2 Duo E8400

the MWave price is actually $20 more for the E8400, though it's faster
(3G vs 2.66 G). But you know "prices subject to change" at any minute.
Is 667 MHz RAM fast enough for the E8400?

Zalman CNPS7700-CU fancy fan
You don't need this if you don't overclock... spend your cash
elsewhere

Since it's got thermostatic speed control, a larger fan blade and big
copper heat sink, I was thinking that it might make for quieter
operation, though I suppose I could always add this later if it's too
noisy. The new reject Dell was mighty quiet and that was in just an
ordinary light duty case, so noise with the standard fan might not be a
problem.

ATI Radeon HD3450 PCI-e16 graphics board
Whatever... for audio you don't need a good card (this is NOT a good
card, but will do if you don't play games)

No games, just waveform displays and maybe watching the occasional
tutorial DVD. It's inexpensive and it doesn't have a fan. ATI isn't ATI
any more so I don't know how solid the design and construction is but
it's hard to find a cheap graphics card these days if you don't need a
lot of power.

Cheap SATA Lightscribe DVD drive
Why lightscribe? anyway that's up to you. That said, you need special
lightscribe disks to have that feature enabled. (they cost more)

You don't have to use Lightscribe disks if you're not using Lightscribe
(I hope!), but it does look rather cool for the occasional CD that I'll
want to give to someone. I never print labels because it's just too much
trouble, and I've never had a problem with disks being destroyed with a
Sharpie. And the difference between a LiteOn with and without Litescribe
is less than $10. My conscience tells me to get a Plextor, but my heart
tells me that I'm not really in the CD-making business.

Antec Sonata Designer 500 case/power supply
Great case Same as me.

Only problem with it is that it's 1/4" too wide to fit the computer case
cubby hole in my desk, so I'll have to modify the desk. I think I've
figured out how to do that, but the worst part will be removing
everything from the desk (including the hutch which has some gear and
wiring in it), turning it over, disassembling part of it, making a
couple of saw cuts, adding a piece, and putting it all back together.
It's too heavy for me to handle by myself, so I've got to factor in the
cost of dinner for a friend.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Steve L.]

"Soundhaspriority" said in response to my
bewilderment

Mike, I just built one. I recommend AMD chipsets because they support
ECC memory. Intel consumer level offerings do not.

these will accept either ecc or non ecc
Chipset Desktop Board
X38 DX38BT
975X D975XBX2; D975XBX
955X D955XBK; D955XCS
925X D925XCV ( AA# C57587-403 and later ); D925XBC ( AA# C59590-306 and
later )
875P D875PBZ

[Steve L.]

"Soundhaspriority" said in response to my
bewilderment

I recommend AMD chipsets

AMD likes to change socket platforms often.
Socket 775 from intel is pretty versitle in it's choice of chips that will
fit.
A consideration if you want to upgrade your processor in the future.

[Nick Brown]

On Tue, 13 May 2008 13:27:28 -0400, "Soundhaspriority"
wrote:

This is my new HT PC. I think that with one alteration, one could record in
the same room. The Zalman CPU cooler is running at 1400 rpm, which is the
minimum achievable with motherboard control of the fan voltage at a minimum
of 4 volts. The cooler is a very efficient heatpipe design that could run
slower. The case is made of a composite of plastic and steel, and appears to
be far more efficient at noise damping than previous efforts employing
absorbent foam. Samsung drives are known to be the least audible of current
hard drives, although they must be shock mounted because they do vibrate.

1SAMSUNG Spinpoint F1 HD753LJ 750GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
Item #: N82E16822152100
Limited 30-Day Return Policy $129.99

Mike,

I'll add another endorsement for the Samsung Spinpoint F1, I got the
1TB model few weeks ago, and I have it mounted in an Antec NSK2480
case with the supplied rubber grommets that I assume are similar to
what you'd get with the Sonata case. It is astonishingly quiet.

To the same PC I also added thermostatic fan speed control, and have
since come to regard it as the best thing since sliced bread,
particularly for a PC which is going to spend a lot of it's time
more-or-less idling. (Not unlike me...)

-Nick

[Julien BH]

On May 13, 1:40 pm, "Steve L." wrote:
"Soundhaspriority" said in response to my
bewilderment

I recommend AMD chipsets

AMD likes to change socket platforms often.
Socket 775 from intel is pretty versitle in it's choice of chips that will
fit.
A consideration if you want to upgrade your processor in the future.

AMD for the lose, I'm sorry Soundhaspriority. Since the core 2 duo and
the quad, AMD is way behind.

Mike, I don't know why you would need ECC .Take the e8400, less heat,
more overclocking potential, more stability, more cache.

Steve, the raid is hardware, not software. There is a dedicated chip
on the motherboard in the DS3R. Performance is great, that's what I
have currently. (almost the same board as the DS3L but with integrated
Raid)

[Richard Crowley]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
Mike, I don't know why you would need ECC

For this reason:
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/s...leID=199601761

I will not build a system without server class memory. To do so is just
plain foolish.

LOL! :-)) Microsoft is just trying to distract attention away from
the #1 through #9 causes of system crashes, their own code!

I've used 100s of computers for decades and could count on one
hand the number of crashes from RAM failures. MS can play FUD
with the best of them.

Don't believe everything you read, Bob.

[Richard Crowley]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
You should take that advice yourself. Microsoft has no vested reason to
promote the use of ECC,

You must have missed the nine other vested reasons I cited.

other than to improve the customer experience.

Or FUD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C...inty_and_doubt

But the hardware industry doesn't want to charge consumers for ECC
protection, because they know it's cheaper to dupe them out of the added
reliability.

They also know that the customers won't pay for solid-gold
keyboards either because it provides no better reliabilty.

Cosmic rays cause ram bit flip. This is categorized as a soft error. For
this reason, all servers, without exception, use ECC, because it
completely removes the bit-flip ram problem from practical consideration.

Don't forget that I work with people every day here at the
office who developed the first commercial DRAM chip
available on the planet, and all the generations between
256 bit and 1Mb.

It was in the lab I managed where we discovered that a
recent rash of soft-errors was the slightly-radioactive sand
used to make the ceramic packages of the 16K DRAM
chips IBM was using in its mainframes at the time.

I have a chip of the world's first 1Mb DRAM on my key-
chain in my pocket. Here's a picture for your amusement...
http://www.rcrowley.com/images/jedii-1.jpg

I can stand up and see people 2 rows over in the Q&R
group who know more about soft-errors than most anyone
else alive (or dead, for that matter.)

For someone like Mike, building his own computer, the cost of ECC is
minimal, and will provide a system that is significantly less prone to
crashes than the typical
trashy consumer desktop.

And yet we manage to get away with using the 100s of
millions of "trashy consumer desktop" systems without
statistically significant memory failures. Go figure. We
even use those non-ECC "trashy consumer desktop"
systems to design the ECC circuits! What irony. :-)

[Steve L.]

"Soundhaspriority" said in response to my
bewilderment

Steve,
This is good news to me, but can you give me some links to detailed
specs?


It's from the intel website

Here's one
http://www.intel.com/products/mother...XBX2/index.htm

[Steve L.]

Julien BH said in response to my bewilderment

There is a dedicated chip
on the motherboard in the DS3R

cool ..
i'll look at this board closer.

[Mike Rivers]

Steve L. wrote:

Here's one
http://www.intel.com/products/mother...XBX2/index.htm

I think I was looking at that board last time around. It seems to have
everything that I need, though two PCI slots (I'm pretty sure the
Gigabyte board I had on my current shopping list has three) might be a
bit tight. Also, it's kind of expensive. Any other reason to get it than
it's an Intel and it supports ECC memory? And how important is that? How
often does memory fail these days?



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Mike Rivers]

Steve L. wrote:

AMD likes to change socket platforms often.
Socket 775 from intel is pretty versitle in it's choice of chips that will
fit.
A consideration if you want to upgrade your processor in the future.

I'm not sure I'll ever upgrade my processor, but I'm enough of a
traditionalist that I'd be inclined to stick with an Intel processor. (I
still have a Beta video recorder that still works, too)

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Steve L.]

Mike Rivers said in response to my bewilderment

I think I was looking at that board last time around. It seems to have
everything that I need, though two PCI slots (I'm pretty sure the
Gigabyte board I had on my current shopping list has three) might be a
bit tight. Also, it's kind of expensive. Any other reason to get it
than
it's an Intel and it supports ECC memory? And how important is that?
How
often does memory fail these days?


well ... i wouldn't spend the extra cash on a mobo just for the sake of
ecc memory .. as a matter of fact the only memory i had ever had that
failed WAS ecc .. go figure... i think it was my fault though... but
still...
I tend to get ASUS boards and i have three now ticking along nicely..
the last one i got was a gigabyte similar to the ones mentioned here but
without RAID ... kind of a stripped down version and it's chugging along
just fine too.

If i were to build one today i'de probably go with a Gigabyte board.. a
souped version of the one i have now maybe... like the ones mentioned
earlier..
they seem to have a lot of good reviews around.

[Richard Crowley]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
Rich, I'm surprised. First you implied that I am gullible with respect to
what I read,

Given the actual soft-error rates real people experience out
in the world, the article seems suspicious. I question
*everything* I read, don't you?

and now you're trying a credentials war.

None of the Q&R people use computers with ECC.
If they aren't worred about it, dunno why I should be.
I'd rather spend the $$$ on more (non-ECC) RAM.

ALL servers, without exception, use ECC for good reason.

The risk of soft errors is not zero. But it isn't high enough to
warrant using ECC in workstations. The stakes are higher in
servers, so it is more common in that application.

[Arny Krueger]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote in message
news
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
You should take that advice yourself. Microsoft has
no vested reason to promote the use of ECC,

You must have missed the nine other vested reasons I
cited.
other than to improve the customer experience.

Or FUD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C...inty_and_doubt

But the hardware industry doesn't want to charge
consumers for ECC protection, because they know it's
cheaper to dupe them out of the added reliability.

They also know that the customers won't pay for
solid-gold keyboards either because it provides no
better reliabilty.
[snip]

Here are some numbers for you. This paper was revised
2004, the most up to date source I could find on the web.
http://www.tezzaron.com/about/papers...1_1_secure.pdf

This paper says that the most common irreducable source of soft errors is
cosmic rays:

"SER* modeling and simulation are highly complex and frustratingly
inaccurate [2][14][16][32]. In addition, there are no standard testing or
reporting mechanisms for cosmic ray induced SERs [3][5][19][22] and most
manufacturers don’t reveal their test results [5][23], so comparisons and
conclusions are difficult to come by. The measurements and estimates in the
following table were drawn from a variety of documents."

The Micron estimate in the table is 2-4 errors per year
per 256 mb. In a computer with 4 gigabytes of ram, this
translates to 32-64 errors in memory, per year, or
approximately:

ONE PER WEEK.


The error here is that this old paper is based on the areal density of bits
on Micron DDR RAM chips in 2004, which was 4 years ago.

Larger objects are more frequently hit by cosmic rays, smaller objects are
hit less frequently. As RAM chips become more dense, the cells become
proportionately smaller.

RAM chips have become about 4 times as dense since 2004, so the results in
the paper are pessimistic by a factor of about 4.

IOW, the error rate in a computer with 4 GB of 2008 DDR RAM is more like

ONE PER MONTH.

[Chris Hornbeck]

On Tue, 13 May 2008 12:09:06 GMT, Mike Rivers
wrote:

It's been time to update my old 266 MHz Pentium studio computer for a
few years now. After years of indecision and not being able to find out
enough about what was available to decide what components to buy, I

did as we all do. Great post, as always. Thanks also to our resident
uPC gearheads and our deeply embedded spy in PDX-land. Have any of
y'all been able to finish viewing the first Tarkovsky, _Ivan's
Childhood_ ?

I haven't yet. Some things take more time than you'd guess at
first blush.

Computers are an especially wonderful confabulation of the
industrial ultimatum and the intensely personal future.




Also, I'm re-rereading the first Ellen Gilchrist novel _Annunciation_,
and am reminded of how much I miss my copies of her first two
collections of stories. Anybody who appreciates Faulkner or Eudora
Welty will luv _Victory Over Japan_ and _In the Land of Dreamy
Dreams_. Best **** since.

Loaned 'em to a pretty woman who not long enough afterwards became the
widow of a great author of a book about the blues (_Deep Blues_
by Robert Palmer).

That's the kind of thing you remember when reading Ellen Gilchrist,
all the best things in your life. Not, in any way, to try to
encourage anyone to read her. Heaven forefend,


Much thanks, as always,

Chris Hornbeck
"I have a gift for enraging people, but if I ever bore you,
it'll be with a knife." -Louise Brooks

[Richard Crowley]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
Several years ago, Intel removed ECC capabilities from their chipsets,

Reference? What remarkable twaddle.

[Richard Crowley]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
Here are some numbers for you. This paper was revised 2004, the most
up to date source I could find on the web.
http://www.tezzaron.com/about/papers...1_1_secure.pdf

The Micron estimate in the table is 2-4 errors per year per 256 mb. In
a computer with 4 gigabytes of ram, this translates to 32-64 errors in
memory, per year, or approximately:

ONE PER WEEK.

Please consult your keychain before you reply.

LOL! :-)
Perhaps SER is what causes the Radium phenomenon.

Sorry, I remain unconvinced. Me and 100s of millions
of other users of "trashy consumer desktop" systems
will just have to live on the edge waiting for that Sword
of Damacles SER waiting to fall on us. I'm trembling
in fear.

Could it be that Micron, et.al. makes more profit on
ECC memory? No, they couldn't possibly have such a
crass motivation. They are just looking out for our good.

Buy ECC if you wish. I'm sure Micron will appreciate it.

[Richard Crowley]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote in...
"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
Several years ago, Intel removed ECC capabilities from their
chipsets,

Reference? What remarkable twaddle.

Rich,
Please accept my deepest apology. While so far in this
discussion I have provided the following references:
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/s...leID=199601761

This is a Microsoft press release picked up by an
industry rag on a slow news day last year.

http://www.tezzaron.com/about/papers...1_1_secure.pdf

This is a press release promoting the company's products.
Here are some quotes you may have missed....
"Alpha particle problems have been largely eliminated"
"DRAM soft error rates have dropped."
"SRAM error rates are growing."
"SRAM has become more susceptible to soft errors than DRAM""
"SER modeling and simulation are highly complex and
frustratingly inaccurate. In addition, there are no standard
testing or reporting mechanisms for cosmic ray induced SERs."
"One reputable source reported anomalously low rates;"

I must admit that you have given me an increased respect
for the marketing people.

Now let's try to help each other out on this. One important
clarification is that a motherboard may incorporate a chipset
that supports ECC, while the BIOS does not. For several years, there
were no desktop motherboards on the market past the Pentium IV level
that supported ECC.

It sounds implausible. Without some hard data, it still
sounds like FUD to me.

Furthermore, is that meant to be an argument FOR ECC
or against it? Seems to me that if we have lived without
ECC for so long without society falling apart, maybe it
isn't as critical as you think?

What kind of ECC are you running in the computer you
are reading this on?

Steve L. tells us that some Intel products once again support ECC.

Then perhaps you should take that up with Steve L. who
appears to be your expert.

Since you are an Intel insider, I respectfully request some document
links so we can establish what Intel desktop motherboard products do
support ECC.

All Intel motherboards are documented online at:
www.intel.com Feel free to reference whatever you wish.
No insider access necessary.

[Richard Crowley]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
Rich, you're not being very scientific about this.

Nor are you. You're quoting press releases and marketing
stuff from companies who make products they are trying
to sell.

You're allowing yourself to be ruled by personal prejudice
and comfort factor.

Yes, I admit that I am prejudiced against people trying
to sell me things that will take my $$ and give me no
perceivable equitable benefit. It is called "prudence"
or even "frugality" if you wish.

OTOH, you personal prejudice appears to be that you
read press releases with industry rag headers around them
and think that it is the latest critical scientific information.

If you think ECC is so critical, by all means go out and buy
whatever you wish. Don't let my silly prejudice dissuade you.

The fact that the 100s of millions of "trashy consumer
desktop" systems seem to be muddling along without
ECC would appear to indicate that our reality isn't
quite in sync with their marketing plans.

Perhaps running 100 "trashy consumer desktop" systems
gives me a different perspective than someone who runs
only 2 or 3 of them.

[Mike Rivers]

Steve L. wrote:

well ... i wouldn't spend the extra cash on a mobo just for the sake of
ecc memory .. as a matter of fact the only memory i had ever had that
failed WAS ecc .. go figure...

Probably because it has more parts to it.




--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Mike Rivers]

Arny Krueger wrote:

IOW, the error rate in a computer with 4 GB of 2008 DDR RAM is more like
ONE PER MONTH.

What's the symptom or consequence of these soft errors? How would I know
if I had one? My computers don't crash, so what else happens?

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Julien BH]

On May 14, 8:51 am, Mike Rivers wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
IOW, the error rate in a computer with 4 GB of 2008 DDR RAM is more like
ONE PER MONTH.

What's the symptom or consequence of these soft errors? How would I know
if I had one? My computers don't crash, so what else happens?

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

I have had my computer for about 4 months and I think it crashed once,
and not because of RAM.
I have 4 GB of RAM, and while what you might say might be true (The
Micron estimate in the table is 2-4 errors per year per 256 mb.) , I'm
pretty much sure it's not entirely.

See, if you have 2 errors per YEAR on 256mb, you don't have one error
per month on 4gb since I doubt your 4gb will be all used at the said
time anyway.
What I'm trying to say is: If your computer is running 365/365 days,
I'd take ECC, else just get more Ram (not more than 4gb on a 32bit
system - ie WinXP or Vista 32)

[Richard Crowley]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in ...
Arny Krueger wrote:

IOW, the error rate in a computer with 4 GB of 2008 DDR RAM is more
like
ONE PER MONTH.

What's the symptom or consequence of these soft errors? How would I
know if I had one? My computers don't crash, so what else happens?

It gives Microsoft something else to blame (besides their
buggy code). In 10s of thousands of computer-hours,
I can't remember *ever* having a problem that couldn't
be attributed to something more likely than SER.

If SER really is the problem that Bob thinks it is, I'm more
likely to go out and buy stock in Micron, Terrazon, et.al.
than any ECC memory from them. I would expect much
better return on my investment.

[jakdedert]

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
Here are some numbers for you. This paper was revised 2004, the most
up to date source I could find on the web.
http://www.tezzaron.com/about/papers...1_1_secure.pdf

The Micron estimate in the table is 2-4 errors per year per 256 mb. In
a computer with 4 gigabytes of ram, this translates to 32-64 errors in
memory, per year, or approximately:

ONE PER WEEK.

Please consult your keychain before you reply.

LOL! :-)
Perhaps SER is what causes the Radium phenomenon.

Sorry, I remain unconvinced. Me and 100s of millions
of other users of "trashy consumer desktop" systems
will just have to live on the edge waiting for that Sword
of Damacles SER waiting to fall on us. I'm trembling
in fear.

Could it be that Micron, et.al. makes more profit on
ECC memory? No, they couldn't possibly have such a
crass motivation. They are just looking out for our good.

Buy ECC if you wish. I'm sure Micron will appreciate it.

Certainly it's not a bad idea, if not too expensive. OTOH, using the
figures cited--one soft error a week--would seem to put the chance of
any significant problem at a vanishingly small percentage.

How many trillions of memory read/write events happen in the course of a
day, week, or month? I expect that memory read/write errors on magnetic
media are a much more common event, although I have no data to compare.

jak

[Julien BH]

On May 14, 9:02 am, "Richard Crowley" wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in ...

Arny Krueger wrote:

IOW, the error rate in a computer with 4 GB of 2008 DDR RAM is more
like
ONE PER MONTH.

What's the symptom or consequence of these soft errors? How would I
know if I had one? My computers don't crash, so what else happens?

It gives Microsoft something else to blame (besides their
buggy code). In 10s of thousands of computer-hours,
I can't remember *ever* having a problem that couldn't
be attributed to something more likely than SER.

If SER really is the problem that Bob thinks it is, I'm more
likely to go out and buy stock in Micron, Terrazon, et.al.
than any ECC memory from them. I would expect much
better return on my investment.

http://searchwincomputing.techtarget...251848,00.html
Nice read.

[Richard Crowley]

"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote ...
"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
Rich, you're not being very scientific about this.

Nor are you. You're quoting press releases and marketing
stuff from companies who make products they are trying
to sell.

You're allowing yourself to be ruled by personal prejudice
and comfort factor.

Yes, I admit that I am prejudiced against people trying to sell me
things that will take my $$ and give me no perceivable equitable
benefit. It is called "prudence" or even "frugality" if you wish.

In this case, you are misguided.

"The error rate in today's consumer-level memory is so low
so that for most everyday applications, adding ECC is pure
overkill. For standard DDR2 memory, the error rate is
something like 100 soft errors over 1 billion device hours.
If there are 16 memory devices or chips on a given module,
that translates to one soft error every 30 years. Even if you
only have two such DIMMs in a system, that's still less than
one error for more than the lifetime of the system as a whole."

From an interview with Mike Sanor, compatibility and
performance manager at Crucial Technology, a division
of DRAM manufacturer Micron Technology.
http://searchwincomputing.techtarget...251848,00.html
This is the reference posted by "JulienBH" elsewhere in this
discussion.

They muddle, and they crash. The consumer experience isn't too good.

OTOH, my consumer experience and that of everyone
I know personally is rather good. Sorry about yours.

Well, sure. And you've got your magic keychain.

Bob, "you're not being very scientific about this." :-)

"less than one error for more than the lifetime of the system"
"for most everyday applications, adding ECC is pure overkill"

I'm only doing everyday applications like editing audio and
video and graphics and text. The sky is not falling. SER
doesn't make my list of top 100 things to worry about.

You may have the last word. I'm returning to audio topics.

[Julien BH]

On May 14, 10:14 am, "Soundhaspriority" wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

...

"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote ...
"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
Rich, you're not being very scientific about this.

Nor are you. You're quoting press releases and marketing
stuff from companies who make products they are trying
to sell.

You're allowing yourself to be ruled by personal prejudice
and comfort factor.

Yes, I admit that I am prejudiced against people trying to sell me
things that will take my $$ and give me no perceivable equitable
benefit. It is called "prudence" or even "frugality" if you wish.

In this case, you are misguided.

"The error rate in today's consumer-level memory is so low
so that for most everyday applications, adding ECC is pure
overkill. For standard DDR2 memory, the error rate is
something like 100 soft errors over 1 billion device hours.
If there are 16 memory devices or chips on a given module,
that translates to one soft error every 30 years. Even if you
only have two such DIMMs in a system, that's still less than
one error for more than the lifetime of the system as a whole."

From an interview with Mike Sanor, compatibility and
performance manager at Crucial Technology, a division
of DRAM manufacturer Micron Technology.
http://searchwincomputing.techtarget...id68_gci125184...
This is the reference posted by "JulienBH" elsewhere in this
discussion.

They muddle, and they crash. The consumer experience isn't too good.

OTOH, my consumer experience and that of everyone
I know personally is rather good. Sorry about yours.

I don't have a problem, because I use ECC. But your expectations are too
low.

Well, sure. And you've got your magic keychain.

Bob, "you're not being very scientific about this." :-)

"less than one error for more than the lifetime of the system"
"for most everyday applications, adding ECC is pure overkill"

Well, at least you've stopped referring to your keychain. This puts the
argument on a more level footing. On my side, I have three references. You
have a statement by Mike Sanor.

I'm only doing everyday applications like editing audio and
video and graphics and text. The sky is not falling. SER
doesn't make my list of top 100 things to worry about.

I understand that, but anecdotal experience is not admissible. You lack the
credentials, other than your keychain. The fact that you are a computer
administrator is simply not good enough to be admissible. But you have
brought up an interesting statement. Actual published papers would be even
more interesting.

We can continue to argue, on this uncomfortably personal level, where you
have accused me of gullibility, and I have responded in kind. Or we can
leave the question open. I continue to recommend ECC to self-builders like
Mike Rivers, because of the nominal cost, and the established increase in
reliability. I respect your right to disagree. But I do request that you
cease carrying on this discussion on a personal level. If you do so,
consider my references to your keychain, etc., erased. I really didn't want
to go there, but felt provoked.

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511

Bob... Don't be so addicted to ECC that's all we're saying. It's not
the MUST HAVE it was a few years ago...
Richard, understand that ECC could be needed for a studio PC that
stays always ON.

[Julien BH]

On May 14, 11:19 am, "Soundhaspriority" wrote:
"Julien BH" wrote in message

...



On May 14, 10:14 am, "Soundhaspriority" wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

...

"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote ...
"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
Rich, you're not being very scientific about this.

Nor are you. You're quoting press releases and marketing
stuff from companies who make products they are trying
to sell.

You're allowing yourself to be ruled by personal prejudice
and comfort factor.

Yes, I admit that I am prejudiced against people trying to sell me
things that will take my $$ and give me no perceivable equitable
benefit. It is called "prudence" or even "frugality" if you wish.

In this case, you are misguided.

"The error rate in today's consumer-level memory is so low
so that for most everyday applications, adding ECC is pure
overkill. For standard DDR2 memory, the error rate is
something like 100 soft errors over 1 billion device hours.
If there are 16 memory devices or chips on a given module,
that translates to one soft error every 30 years. Even if you
only have two such DIMMs in a system, that's still less than
one error for more than the lifetime of the system as a whole."

From an interview with Mike Sanor, compatibility and
performance manager at Crucial Technology, a division
of DRAM manufacturer Micron Technology.
http://searchwincomputing.techtarget...id68_gci125184...
This is the reference posted by "JulienBH" elsewhere in this
discussion.

They muddle, and they crash. The consumer experience isn't too good.

OTOH, my consumer experience and that of everyone
I know personally is rather good. Sorry about yours.

I don't have a problem, because I use ECC. But your expectations are too
low.

Well, sure. And you've got your magic keychain.

Bob, "you're not being very scientific about this." :-)

"less than one error for more than the lifetime of the system"
"for most everyday applications, adding ECC is pure overkill"

Well, at least you've stopped referring to your keychain. This puts the
argument on a more level footing. On my side, I have three references.
You
have a statement by Mike Sanor.

I'm only doing everyday applications like editing audio and
video and graphics and text. The sky is not falling. SER
doesn't make my list of top 100 things to worry about.

I understand that, but anecdotal experience is not admissible. You lack
the
credentials, other than your keychain. The fact that you are a computer
administrator is simply not good enough to be admissible. But you have
brought up an interesting statement. Actual published papers would be
even
more interesting.

We can continue to argue, on this uncomfortably personal level, where you
have accused me of gullibility, and I have responded in kind. Or we can
leave the question open. I continue to recommend ECC to self-builders
like
Mike Rivers, because of the nominal cost, and the established increase in
reliability. I respect your right to disagree. But I do request that you
cease carrying on this discussion on a personal level. If you do so,
consider my references to your keychain, etc., erased. I really didn't
want
to go there, but felt provoked.

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511

Bob... Don't be so addicted to ECC that's all we're saying. It's not
the MUST HAVE it was a few years ago...
Richard, understand that ECC could be needed for a studio PC that
stays always ON.

Julien,
Referring to my other post in this thread where I describe the
consequences of a soft error, some of effects can be cumulative. When a
project file is saved to disk, any errors in the RAM image are saved as
well. In this way, the errors accumulate proportional to the number of hours
spent on the project, not the number of hours the computer is on. Because a
wav sample can be manually fixed, this is not as devastating as with CAD and
video. On the other hand, corruption of a project control file has pretty
bad conseuqences.

Someone who has to buy a packaged computer, as Mike initially did with
Dell, has little choice. Now Mike is building a machine, and he can have ECC
for $25 - $50 additional. In my opinion, it's the logical choice.

The best way to carry on a usenet discussion is to present the evidence,
which in this case comes from third parties, not us, and let the reader make
the choice. We all benefit from the high quality publications on the web.
It's not about winning arguments. Whatever we find is a win-win for all of
us.

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511

Did you read at all the link I posted earlier? Probably not because
you wouldn't be trying to convince me now.
I already bought my machine 1 month ago and WITHOUT ECC. I have yet to
experience any problems.
If you have the 50-100$ more to spend on that go for it. I preferred
to pay a bit more for my motherboard and my power supply instead.
That's a choice those of us on a budget have to make. ECC is not
necessary, sorry to break your bubble.

[Mike Rivers]

Soundhaspriority wrote:

There are no additional parts on the motherboard. There are a few additional
traces. A non ECC DIMM has 64 data lines out of either 8 or 16 chips. An ECC
DIMM has 72 data lines out of 9 or 18 DIMMS.

I wasn't talking about more parts on the motherboard, I was talking
about more parts on the memory module. That's the part that you're
saying fails, and I say that because it has more parts, it's more likely
to fail.

I'm having a deja vu experience here because it seems that we've talked
about this before, or if not in regard to memory, to something similar
with error correction capabilities (like a CD, for example). If there's
a failure and a memory error gets corrected, that might keep the
computer running in an instance when it might crash without ECC, but
you're really just concealing the problem - unless of course there's a
pop-up message saying "Your ECC memory has just corrected an error.
Replace your memory as soon as possible."

Eventually there will be more errors than it can correct and then it
will fail like any other memory.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Steve L.]

Mike Rivers said in response to my bewilderment

Eventually there will be more errors than it can correct and then it
will fail like any other memory.


ECC will only correct single bit errors ... mulitple bit errors can be a
likely source of a crash but ECC can only pass the info on to the OS (if
it supports it .. probably need a server OS) and cannot correct them.
If cost is an issue... it's more for ECC ram .. more for a motherboard
that supports ECC ram .. and more for an operating system that will tell
you why your system crashed due to muliple bit errors. How much more?
concievable a few hundred to several hundred depending on the components.
Is it worth it? well.. i think if you back up your data regularly and
note when everything is working fine you're ok. on the other hand if
you're somewhat lackadaisy about backing up and an unrecoverable crash
ends up being devastaing it might well be worth it.

This guy has some points to ponder he
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/ram/errECC-c.html

[Arny Krueger]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:BfBWj.311$LL.90@trnddc04
Arny Krueger wrote:

IOW, the error rate in a computer with 4 GB of 2008 DDR
RAM is more like ONE PER MONTH.

What's the symptom or consequence of these soft errors?

The consequences are that one randomly-chosen bit in RAM changes value.

How would I know if I had one?

Depends where that bit is. If it is in a running program or the operating
system, the program or the operating system might crash.

My computers don't crash, so what else happens?

Some data some place might get changed. Or, the bit may be in a place that
doesn't matter.

For example, if the changed bit is in memory that is note being used or
going to be discarded or refreshed before the next use, then the change will
be wiped out before it can matter.

My computers don't crash, either.

Well OK, this desktop machine I'm typing on used to get a little goofy
(usually could be straightened out by logging off and logging back on) every
month or two. But it just got a new motherboard/CPU/RAM upgrade and it
hasn't yet been a month since the last boot.

I have 3 computers in routine use, one with 2 GB of DDR2-800 RAM and the
other two with 4 GB. Their CPUs are 3000+ single core, and 4000+ & 6000+
dual core. Every month or two one might get a little goofy and get rebooted
when it has nothing else going on.

[Mike Rivers]

Soundhaspriority wrote:

Mike, this reasoning is not valid. We're talking soft errors, which occur
when nothing is wrong with the memory module.

If there's nothing wrong with the memory module, then why is there an
error? If there's an error, there's something wrong with the memory
module, if only intermittently.

The causes are cosmic rays and
poorly modeled noise.

I don't know what "poorly modeled noise" is, but you're not going to
convince me that cosmic rays cause computer errors no matter how many
web sites you find that say they do. Maybe in the lab, but in my house?
Inside a solid metal case? Should I be wearing a metal helmet?

The purpose is not concealment. The purpose is to
correct errors that unavoidably occur in properly operating memory modules,

Why would anyone sell a computer device that is allowed to make errors
and still considered to be working normally? Isn't there a better
terminology you can use?

This is not fringe stuff. Google has around a hundred thousand blade servers
in racks that cover acres, and all of them use ECC technology.

If I had Google's money and technology support resources, I'd do what
they tell me to do. But I'm just an occasional user and I don't work my
computers so hard that they crash. If I have soft errors, I don't know it.

The only reason it isn't part of the
consumer market is that it's so hard for the consumer to understand why he
should have it.

With explanations like "soft errors but working normally" and "cosmic
rays," and most important, that non-ECC is the most common type of
memory, it's no wonder the consumer doesn't understand why he needs it.
While you're at it, why not try to convince people that they should
listen to 24-bit DVDs instead of MP3s?




--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Mike Rivers]

Arny Krueger wrote:

I have 3 computers in routine use, one with 2 GB of DDR2-800 RAM and the
other two with 4 GB. Their CPUs are 3000+ single core, and 4000+ & 6000+
dual core. Every month or two one might get a little goofy and get rebooted
when it has nothing else going on.

What's chances that "getting goofy" is a result of a memory error?
Generally we blame Windows, but maybe Windows is really OK and all of
its quirks are a result of memory errors. Maybe Microsoft is right?


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Mike Rivers]

Chel van Gennip wrote:

Some say, you don't make important recordings that often, so it won't
matter, others say a few $ to exclude a source of random errors is worth
the money.

But all ECC does is correct a single-bit error. It doesn't guarantee a
safe landing all the time. If a cosmic ray can hit one bit, it can hit
two. There are probably real statistics about this, but I probably
couldn't understand them even if I found them.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)