[Federico]

Hi,
this weekend I will record an accordion 5tet. I've never done that before.
Probably I will mic the players right hands, just in case I need them but I
would like to record them all with a stereo technique.
I need some suggestion on which one would be better.

Place: small church (I haven't seen it yet) probably very reverberant.

Instruments: 5 accordions, seated and placed in semi circle. The first and
the last accordion are 2 meters apart (6 feet). The accordion on the far
right is a Bass Accordion.

Music: From classical to tango

Mics pairs I can use:
AKG C414ULS
Oktava 012 /w the 3 capsules
AKG C391 cardioid (or supercardioid, I'm not sure)
Crown PCC160 http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/mics/101062.pdf
Sennheiser MD421
Beyerdynamic M201
SM Pro Audio MC01
http://www.smproaudio.com/index.php?...ask=view&id=49
M-Audio Pulsar http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...arII-main.html
(don't waste your money on these!!)

Since I will not have an accurate monitoring (I will use AKG K240
headphones) I'm willing to record 2 or 3 pairs (channels are not an issue, I
have 24 + 24 pres).

My starting points are
1) Coincident cardioids 90° placed in the focus of the circle of accordions
(Oktavas?) (or coincident supercardioids 180°???)
2) M/S (or Blumlein) with the 414s (or jecklin disk?)
3) Aproximation of Crown SASS using the PCC160s
http://www.pugetsoundman.com/article...o/binaural.htm

What would you do?
Thanks
F.

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

The keyboards may be quite noisey, careful about micing too close. No
chance of moving to a better room I suppose?

[Federico]

No chance of moving to a better room I suppose?

Nope, I'm not producing this recording.
But the accordion can be a loud instrument so I hope the reverb not to be a
big issue...
F.

[Federico]

P.S: no audience.
F.

[Don Pearce]

Federico wrote:
No chance of moving to a better room I suppose?

Nope, I'm not producing this recording.
But the accordion can be a loud instrument so I hope the reverb not to be a
big issue...
F.



Doesn't matter how loud or soft the instrument is, the reverb is still
the same in proportion.

d

[John Williamson]

Federico wrote:
P.S: no audience.
F.


As well as a fairly close crossed pair at the focus, I'd use another
pair pointing backwards, & mix in the room as required.

That's what I did with the accordion band a while back.

Also, remind the players not to move the bellows for a few seconds after
the last notes, until the echoes have died away.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Mike Rivers]

Federico wrote:

this weekend I will record an accordion 5tet. I've never done that before.

You realize that you're opening the door to a flood of accordion jokes,
don't you?

Probably I will mic the players right hands, just in case I need them but I
would like to record them all with a stereo technique.
I need some suggestion on which one would be better.

Place: small church (I haven't seen it yet) probably very reverberant.
Instruments: 5 accordions, seated and placed in semi circle. The first and
the last accordion are 2 meters apart (6 feet).

That's going to put them pretty much knee-to-knee and you'd probably not
get enough separation between the right hand of one accordion and the
left hand of the next one to be useful. I'd stick with stereo pickup of
the group and spend some time with mic placement to get a decent amount
of room sound but not too much.

Mics pairs I can use:
AKG C414ULS
Oktava 012 /w the 3 capsules

Those would probably be your best bets.

Since I will not have an accurate monitoring (I will use AKG K240
headphones) I'm willing to record 2 or 3 pairs (channels are not an issue, I
have 24 + 24 pres).

This is really going to be your biggest problem since you'll only have
an educated guess about you're getting. Can't you trade all of those
channels and preamps for a couple of powered speakers and enough cable
to get you into another room? They don't have to be great speakers, but
should be better than "computer quality." You should be able to hear the
balance between direct and reverberant sound that will let you decide
how far back to put the mics.

My starting points are
1) Coincident cardioids 90° placed in the focus of the circle of accordions
(Oktavas?) (or coincident supercardioids 180°???)
2) M/S (or Blumlein) with the 414s (or jecklin disk?)
What would you do?

I'd probably try the C414s or one C414 and an Oktava cardioid in M-S if
the room sounds decent, or two Oktavas in X-Y if the room sounds crummy.
But you have to listen for the room. The accordions will come through no
matter what you do wrong. (not intended as an accordion joke, but not bad)


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Tue, 6 May 2008 14:24:33 +0200, "Federico"
wrote:


No chance of moving to a better room I suppose?

Nope, I'm not producing this recording.
But the accordion can be a loud instrument so I hope the reverb not to be a
big issue...

Same difference, loud or soft.

[[email protected]]

I'm with Mike on this. The AKGs in MS and I'd also do the oKtavas in
XY since your on headphones. This way you have three choices, either
stereo setup or a mix. Good luck.


On Tue, 06 May 2008 13:08:33 GMT, Mike Rivers
wrote:

Federico wrote:

this weekend I will record an accordion 5tet. I've never done that before.

You realize that you're opening the door to a flood of accordion jokes,
don't you?

Probably I will mic the players right hands, just in case I need them but I
would like to record them all with a stereo technique.
I need some suggestion on which one would be better.

Place: small church (I haven't seen it yet) probably very reverberant.
Instruments: 5 accordions, seated and placed in semi circle. The first and
the last accordion are 2 meters apart (6 feet).

That's going to put them pretty much knee-to-knee and you'd probably not
get enough separation between the right hand of one accordion and the
left hand of the next one to be useful. I'd stick with stereo pickup of
the group and spend some time with mic placement to get a decent amount
of room sound but not too much.

Mics pairs I can use:
AKG C414ULS
Oktava 012 /w the 3 capsules

Those would probably be your best bets.

Since I will not have an accurate monitoring (I will use AKG K240
headphones) I'm willing to record 2 or 3 pairs (channels are not an issue, I
have 24 + 24 pres).

This is really going to be your biggest problem since you'll only have
an educated guess about you're getting. Can't you trade all of those
channels and preamps for a couple of powered speakers and enough cable
to get you into another room? They don't have to be great speakers, but
should be better than "computer quality." You should be able to hear the
balance between direct and reverberant sound that will let you decide
how far back to put the mics.

My starting points are
1) Coincident cardioids 90° placed in the focus of the circle of accordions
(Oktavas?) (or coincident supercardioids 180°???)
2) M/S (or Blumlein) with the 414s (or jecklin disk?)
What would you do?

I'd probably try the C414s or one C414 and an Oktava cardioid in M-S if
the room sounds decent, or two Oktavas in X-Y if the room sounds crummy.
But you have to listen for the room. The accordions will come through no
matter what you do wrong. (not intended as an accordion joke, but not bad)

[HKC]

No matter what you do you will get a separation problem when they are that
close together so you have to get the balance right before recording. It may
also be a problem if the room doesn't sound good because them all distance
micing will carry the reverb as well and be more or less useless.
The accordion itself is a fairly easy instrument to record, it sounds like
an accordion not matter what you do (no pun intended). Most of your mics
could be dialed into an accordion setting but obviously the AKG C414ULS and
the Oktava 012 are the best for ambient mics.
Many accordion players have an internal mic that I sometimes record to get
some tracks with full separation.

PS of course if the players are really good you will most likely have no
problems at all.

[Paul Stamler]

"Federico" wrote in message
...

Mics pairs I can use:
AKG C414ULS
Oktava 012 /w the 3 capsules
AKG C391 cardioid (or supercardioid, I'm not sure)
Crown PCC160 http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/mics/101062.pdf
Sennheiser MD421
Beyerdynamic M201
SM Pro Audio MC01
http://www.smproaudio.com/index.php?...ask=view&id=49
M-Audio Pulsar http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...arII-main.html
(don't waste your money on these!!)

Since I will not have an accurate monitoring (I will use AKG K240
headphones) I'm willing to record 2 or 3 pairs (channels are not an issue,
I
have 24 + 24 pres).
1) Coincident cardioids 90° placed in the focus of the circle of
accordions
(Oktavas?) (or coincident supercardioids 180°???)
2) M/S (or Blumlein) with the 414s (or jecklin disk?)
3) Aproximation of Crown SASS using the PCC160s
http://www.pugetsoundman.com/article...o/binaural.htm

What would you do?

I'd set up the Oktavas with the hypercardioid capsules, coincident at 90
degrees. I'd also run the 414s in XY, again hypercardioid at 90 degrees
(this breed of 414 has hyper, right?). And I'd put some thick carpet on the
floor for several feet around the microphone to soak up the floor bounce.

Peace,
Paul

[[email protected]]

MIke's M-S idea was my first thought. You might want to try M-S with
a 414 in omni for the mid mic. You'll get wider coverage and some
room, which would hopefully be a good thing. If you want to spot mic
I wouldn't worry about stereo on each accordion. One mic in the
center would be my first choice. I might aim more for the right hand
side of whoever the main soloist is.

Gantt

On May 6, 9:08*am, Mike Rivers wrote:
Federico wrote:
this weekend I will record an accordion 5tet. I've never done that before.

You realize that you're opening the door to a flood of accordion jokes,
don't you?

Probably I will mic the players right hands, just in case I need them but I
would like to record them all with a stereo technique.
I need some suggestion on which one would be better.
Place: small church (I haven't seen it yet) probably very reverberant.
Instruments: 5 accordions, seated and placed in semi circle. The first and
the last accordion are 2 meters apart (6 feet).

That's going to put them pretty much knee-to-knee and you'd probably not
get enough separation between the right hand of one accordion and the
left hand of the next one to be useful. I'd stick with stereo pickup of
the group and spend some time with mic placement to get a decent amount
of room sound but not too much.

Mics pairs I can use:
AKG C414ULS
Oktava 012 /w the 3 capsules

Those would probably be your best bets.

Since I will not have an accurate monitoring (I will use AKG K240
headphones) I'm willing to record 2 or 3 pairs (channels are not an issue, I
have 24 + 24 pres).

This is really going to be your biggest problem since you'll only have
an educated guess about you're getting. Can't you trade all of those
channels and preamps for a couple of powered speakers and enough cable
to get you into another room? They don't have to be great speakers, but
should be better than "computer quality." You should be able to hear the
balance between direct and reverberant sound that will let you decide
how far back to put the mics.

My starting points are
1) Coincident cardioids 90° placed in the focus of the circle of accordions
(Oktavas?) (or coincident supercardioids 180°???)
2) M/S (or Blumlein) with the 414s (or jecklin disk?)
What would you do?

I'd probably try the C414s or one C414 and an Oktava cardioid in M-S if
the room sounds decent, or two Oktavas in X-Y if the room sounds crummy.
But you have to listen for the room. The accordions will come through no
matter what you do wrong. (not intended as an accordion joke, but not bad)

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Federico]

As spot mics I will rely on dinamic mics.
Beyerdynamics M201 (which I love) and 421s should work.
As Mike wrote the players are sitting very near. I hope this don't become a
problem.

So, the main mics will probably be
1) Oktavas in XY from 90° to 120° in the focus (I'm not sure if cardioid or
Hyper)
2) 414s in MS (M omni?) maybe 3 feet before the focus
Shall I bring in a thick carpet and try the Crowns on the floor in the foucs
aiming 180°?
Or I could use them "AB" 6 feet from each other using the "M" 414 mic as
"centre"?
F.



ha scritto nel messaggio
...
MIke's M-S idea was my first thought. You might want to try M-S with
a 414 in omni for the mid mic. You'll get wider coverage and some
room, which would hopefully be a good thing. If you want to spot mic
I wouldn't worry about stereo on each accordion. One mic in the
center would be my first choice. I might aim more for the right hand
side of whoever the main soloist is.

Gantt

On May 6, 9:08 am, Mike Rivers wrote:
Federico wrote:
this weekend I will record an accordion 5tet. I've never done that
before.

You realize that you're opening the door to a flood of accordion jokes,
don't you?

Probably I will mic the players right hands, just in case I need them
but I
would like to record them all with a stereo technique.
I need some suggestion on which one would be better.
Place: small church (I haven't seen it yet) probably very reverberant.
Instruments: 5 accordions, seated and placed in semi circle. The first
and
the last accordion are 2 meters apart (6 feet).

That's going to put them pretty much knee-to-knee and you'd probably not
get enough separation between the right hand of one accordion and the
left hand of the next one to be useful. I'd stick with stereo pickup of
the group and spend some time with mic placement to get a decent amount
of room sound but not too much.

Mics pairs I can use:
AKG C414ULS
Oktava 012 /w the 3 capsules

Those would probably be your best bets.

Since I will not have an accurate monitoring (I will use AKG K240
headphones) I'm willing to record 2 or 3 pairs (channels are not an
issue, I
have 24 + 24 pres).

This is really going to be your biggest problem since you'll only have
an educated guess about you're getting. Can't you trade all of those
channels and preamps for a couple of powered speakers and enough cable
to get you into another room? They don't have to be great speakers, but
should be better than "computer quality." You should be able to hear the
balance between direct and reverberant sound that will let you decide
how far back to put the mics.

My starting points are
1) Coincident cardioids 90° placed in the focus of the circle of
accordions
(Oktavas?) (or coincident supercardioids 180°???)
2) M/S (or Blumlein) with the 414s (or jecklin disk?)
What would you do?

I'd probably try the C414s or one C414 and an Oktava cardioid in M-S if
the room sounds decent, or two Oktavas in X-Y if the room sounds crummy.
But you have to listen for the room. The accordions will come through no
matter what you do wrong. (not intended as an accordion joke, but not bad)

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Paul Stamler]

"Federico" wrote in message
...
As spot mics I will rely on dinamic mics.
Beyerdynamics M201 (which I love) and 421s should work.
As Mike wrote the players are sitting very near. I hope this don't become
a
problem.

I suspect it may, since there'll be lots of leakage.

So, the main mics will probably be
1) Oktavas in XY from 90° to 120° in the focus (I'm not sure if cardioid
or
Hyper)

The thing is, Oktava's "cardioid" capsules are actually closer to "wide
cardioid", while their "hypercardioid" capsules are closer to "cardioid",
and have a flatter response besides. Do use carpet, though, between the
accordions and main mics.

Peace,
Paul

[Scott Dorsey]

Federico wrote:

Instruments: 5 accordions, seated and placed in semi circle. The first and
the last accordion are 2 meters apart (6 feet). The accordion on the far
right is a Bass Accordion.

Music: From classical to tango

Try a Jecklin disc in the middle of the semicircle. Very wide angle of
acceptance, and you can get it very close-in without a problem, so it will
not pick up much audience noise or disturb sight lines. As long as the
group is balanced and the room doesn't have slap echo issues, you will be
fine. The Jecklin does well in reverberant rooms because you can bring it
up close to the source, but it does not do well in rooms that sound bad.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Federico wrote:

this weekend I will record an accordion 5tet.

Omni pair or triad comes to mind as the first choice, treble cleanness is
paramount! You might want to add a second stereo setup some 10 feet further
away, I understand you to have multitrack capability.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Federico]

Thanks everybody,
I've done the job using 4 pairs:
1) Oktava 012 w/hypercardioid capsules 90° in the imaginary circle focus:
nice sound, good stereo spread but the sound is too dry.
2) AKG C414ULS in M/S (M omni) 3 feet before the focus and 5 feet high.
Wonderful sound!
3) RODE NT2000 omni 3 feet before the focus, 5 feet high and 6 feet apart in
A/B. I miss the center a bit but I can always add the "M" C414
4) Crown PCC160 taped to a Jecklin Disk right under the M/S pair. Really
nice but too much high frequencies. Really a lot!

I will mix the tracks in the next weeks and I'll let you know who's the
winner. I'll try to post some audio too.

Thanks again
F.