[HL0105]

At the bar where I do karaoke, I talked the KJ into making recordings
of our singing. So he
brought a (Gemini IKey Plus) Portable USB Recorder, and connected it
to the (RCA Record Out) on his (American DJ QFX Pro) mixer.

When we listened to the recording the next day, we noticed two
problems. One was that for some of the louder singers, there was
distortion. The KJ's theory on why this happened was that the gain
setting on the mixer (set at one quarter setting) was too high for
recording purposes. And that gain setting could not be turned down; it
had to be at least that high since this was karaoke in a bar
environment.

The other problem we noticed was that there was no background noise at
all to supplement the singer's voice; it sounded like a studio
recording. And without this ambient crowd noise, you heard every
imperfection in the singing. And since karaoke singers are amateurs;
well there were LOTS of imperfections.

So we tried a second recording attempt. This time without any input
from the mixer; the recorder's built-in microphone was used. The
result had plenty of crowd noise, so we accomplished that. The
problem: *too much* crowd noise. The noise of the crowd was at such a
high level, that in some cases you could barely hear the singer. I
couldn't believe that this tiny microphone on the Recorder was that
sensitive. Imagine hearing about 25 loud conversations at once - in a
phone booth.

So for our third recording attempt we placed the Recorder one foot
away from the monitor speaker, assuming that this would result in the
singer's voice being the loudest part of the recording, much louder
than the crowd noise. Didn't work. At all. Regardless of the fact that
the mic was that close to the speaker, it was the exact same result.
The noise of the crowd was at such a high level, that in some cases
you could barely hear the singer. Baffling!

(Now more specifically, the mic was situated closer to the woofer,
rather than higher up and closer to the tweeter...but I don't believe
that would be a factor here.)

So we're back to square one. How the heck do we get some decent
recordings?? If anyone has any insight on this, it would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks!

- Dave

[Richard Crowley]

"HL0105" wrote ...
At the bar where I do karaoke, I talked the KJ into making recordings
of our singing. So he
brought a (Gemini IKey Plus) Portable USB Recorder, and connected it
to the (RCA Record Out) on his (American DJ QFX Pro) mixer.

When we listened to the recording the next day, we noticed two
problems. One was that for some of the louder singers, there was
distortion. The KJ's theory on why this happened was that the gain
setting on the mixer (set at one quarter setting) was too high for
recording purposes. And that gain setting could not be turned down; it
had to be at least that high since this was karaoke in a bar
environment.

Might be that some other part of the bar's audio chain is
not set properly if he has to make up extra gain in the
mixer to the point where it causes distortion. The solution
would be to do proper gain-staging for the entire sound
system. The other possibility is that the speakers/power
amps are under-powered and no adjustment will fix that.

The other problem we noticed was that there was no background noise at
all to supplement the singer's voice; it sounded like a studio
recording. And without this ambient crowd noise, you heard every
imperfection in the singing. And since karaoke singers are amateurs;
well there were LOTS of imperfections.

Yes, that is exactly what we would expect to hear.

So we tried a second recording attempt. This time without any input
from the mixer; the recorder's built-in microphone was used.

That recorder doesn't have a built-in mic.

So we're back to square one. How the heck do we get some decent
recordings?? If anyone has any insight on this, it would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks!

Simple answer. Move the recording mic around (likely somewhere
in front of the main speakers) to the point where the PA
sound vs. the ambient noise is pleasing to you.

Technically correct answer: Use a recording mixer where you
can adjust the: singer(s), trax, and ambient sounds in the
proper proportion for recording.

[Mike Rivers]

On Mar 10, 4:57 pm, HL0105 wrote:
At the bar where I do karaoke, I talked the KJ into making recordings
of our singing. So he
brought a (Gemini IKey Plus) Portable USB Recorder, and connected it
to the (RCA Record Out) on his (American DJ QFX Pro) mixer.

When we listened to the recording the next day, we noticed two
problems. One was that for some of the louder singers, there was
distortion. The KJ's theory on why this happened was that the gain
setting on the mixer (set at one quarter setting) was too high for
recording purposes.

He's correct.

The other problem we noticed was that there was no background noise at
all to supplement the singer's voice; it sounded like a studio
recording. And without this ambient crowd noise, you heard every
imperfection in the singing.

This is because the singer was singing an inche from the mic and the
audience was 25 feet away. About the imperfections, you said it.

So we tried a second recording attempt. This time without any input
from the mixer; the recorder's built-in microphone was used. The
result had plenty of crowd noise, so we accomplished that. The
problem: *too much* crowd noise. The noise of the crowd was at such a
high level, that in some cases you could barely hear the singer.

Well, maybe you can put those two experiences together and learn
something about how microphones work. By moving the recorder closer to
the speakers, you can change the balance between the singer+music and
the crowd. How do you know where to put it? You listen to what it's
picking up. Plug a set of headphones into the recorder and listen to
what it's listening to. Admittedly, this is really going to be
difficult in a loud karaoke bar. You can make a test recording,
though, and listen to it. If the balance insn't satisfactory, move the
recorder to another spot and try again. Once you get it right, it'll
probably be OK for the rest of the night, at least for what you're
doing.

So for our third recording attempt we placed the Recorder one foot
away from the monitor speaker, assuming that this would result in the
singer's voice being the loudest part of the recording, much louder
than the crowd noise. Didn't work. At all. Regardless of the fact that
the mic was that close to the speaker, it was the exact same result.
The noise of the crowd was at such a high level, that in some cases
you could barely hear the singer. Baffling!

You still didn't have it in the right place, but you're at least
learning how to learn. Because it was closer to the woofer, it wasn't
getting a balanced sound from the speaker. Keep trying.

So we're back to square one. How the heck do we get some decent
recordings??

You could hire a professional. Or you can keep learning. That's what
professionals do.

[Ralf R. Radermacher]

HL0105 wrote:

At the bar where I do karaoke, I talked the KJ into making recordings
of our singing.

Isn't this against the Hague land war regulations on gratuitous
violence?

Ralf

--
Ralf R. Radermacher - DL9KCG - Köln/Cologne, Germany
private homepage: http://www.fotoralf.de
manual cameras and photo galleries - updated Jan. 10, 2005
Contarex - Kiev 60 - Horizon 202 - P6 mount lenses

[Mickey]

On 2008-03-10, HL0105 wrote:
At the bar where I do karaoke, I talked the KJ into making recordings
of our singing. So he
brought a (Gemini IKey Plus) Portable USB Recorder, and connected it
to the (RCA Record Out) on his (American DJ QFX Pro) mixer.

When we listened to the recording the next day, we noticed two
problems. One was that for some of the louder singers, there was
distortion. The KJ's theory on why this happened was that the gain
setting on the mixer (set at one quarter setting) was too high for
recording purposes. And that gain setting could not be turned down; it
had to be at least that high since this was karaoke in a bar
environment.

You mean there is no input level control on the recorder?
It is probably meant for the -10Db of home recording, and the
mixer puts out +4Db levels.

I take it the mixer has no other busses to send out on.


The other problem we noticed was that there was no background noise at
all to supplement the singer's voice; it sounded like a studio
recording. And without this ambient crowd noise, you heard every
imperfection in the singing. And since karaoke singers are amateurs;
well there were LOTS of imperfections.

That just means no effects were going to the recording output.

If you told us the mixer model, we might actually have a fighting
chance of telling you how to hook it up so it worked. 8-)

--
Mickey
Some people have twenty years of experience, some people have
one year of experience twenty times over. -- Anonymous

[HL0105]

On Mar 10, 5:34*pm, "Richard Crowley" wrote:
"HL0105" wrote ...

At the bar where I do karaoke, I talked the KJ into making recordings
of our singing. So he
brought a (Gemini IKey Plus) Portable USB Recorder, and connected it
to the (RCA Record Out) on his (American DJ QFX Pro) mixer.

When we listened to the recording the next day, we noticed two
problems. One was that for some of the louder singers, there was
distortion. The KJ's theory on why this happened was that the gain
setting on the mixer (set at one quarter setting) was too high for
recording purposes. And that gain setting could not be turned down; it
had to be at least that high since this was karaoke in a bar
environment.

Might be that some other part of the bar's audio chain is
not set properly if he has to make up extra gain in the
mixer to the point where it causes distortion. *The solution
would be to do proper gain-staging for the entire sound
system. *The other possibility is that the speakers/power
amps are under-powered and no adjustment will fix that.

The other problem we noticed was that there was no background noise at
all to supplement the singer's voice; it sounded like a studio
recording. And without this ambient crowd noise, you heard every
imperfection in the singing. And since karaoke singers are amateurs;
well there were LOTS of imperfections.

Yes, that is exactly what we would expect to hear.

So we tried a second recording attempt. This time without any input
from the mixer; the recorder's built-in microphone was used.

That recorder doesn't have a built-in mic.


Sure it does. The updated iKey PLUS model includes a stereo T-mic.

So we're back to square one. How the heck do we get some decent
recordings?? If anyone has any insight on this, it would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks!

Simple answer. Move the recording mic around (likely somewhere
in front of the main speakers) to the point where the PA
sound vs. the ambient noise is pleasing to you.


Move the recording mic around? That's exactly what we did, between
recording attempts two and three. As stated in my original post...on
recording attempt three, we placed the Recorder one foot away from the
monitor speaker.

Technically correct answer: Use a recording mixer where you
can adjust the: singer(s), trax, and ambient sounds in the
proper proportion for recording.

Already asked the KJ about that option. He said that his mixer
unfortunately does not have that capability. He has seperate trax for
the inputs, but not for the outputs.

[HL0105]

On Mar 10, 5:36*pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Mar 10, 4:57 pm, HL0105 wrote:

At the bar where I do karaoke, I talked the KJ into making recordings
of our singing. So he
brought a (Gemini IKey Plus) Portable USB Recorder, and connected it
to the (RCA Record Out) on his (American DJ QFX Pro) mixer.

When we listened to the recording the next day, we noticed two
problems. One was that for some of the louder singers, there was
distortion. The KJ's theory on why this happened was that the gain
setting on the mixer (set at one quarter setting) was too high for
recording purposes.

He's correct.

The other problem we noticed was that there was no background noise at
all to supplement the singer's voice; it sounded like a studio
recording. And without this ambient crowd noise, you heard every
imperfection in the singing.

This is because the singer was singing an inche from the mic and the
audience was 25 feet away. About the imperfections, you said it.

So we tried a second recording attempt. This time without any input
from the mixer; the recorder's built-in microphone was used. The
result had plenty of crowd noise, so we accomplished that. The
problem: *too much* crowd noise. The noise of the crowd was at such a
high level, that in some cases you could barely hear the singer.

Well, maybe you can put those two experiences together and learn
something about how microphones work. By moving the recorder closer to
the speakers, you can change the balance between the singer+music and
the crowd. How do you know where to put it? You listen to what it's
picking up. Plug a set of headphones into the recorder and listen to
what it's listening to. Admittedly, this is really going to be
difficult in a loud karaoke bar. You can make a test recording,
though, and listen to it. If the balance insn't satisfactory, move the
recorder to another spot and try again. Once you get it right, it'll
probably be OK for the rest of the night, at least for what you're
doing.

So for our third recording attempt we placed the Recorder one foot
away from the monitor speaker, assuming that this would result in the
singer's voice being the loudest part of the recording, much louder
than the crowd noise. Didn't work. At all. Regardless of the fact that
the mic was that close to the speaker, it was the exact same result.
The noise of the crowd was at such a high level, that in some cases
you could barely hear the singer. Baffling!

You still didn't have it in the right place, but you're at least
learning how to learn. Because it was closer to the woofer, it wasn't
getting a balanced sound from the speaker. Keep trying.


We had the Recorder on a mic stand. It was level with, and about a
foot away from, the woofer. We would've had to raise it up another
foot or so to make it level with the tweeter.

So you're saying it was that particular placement of the mic? And that
if we moved the mic (somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 foot
vertically) so that it was then situated to get a balanced sound
between woofer and tweeter; that like magic all of that crowd noise
will disappear? Hmmmm. Something I'll have to hear to believe.

So we're back to square one. How the heck do we get some decent
recordings??

You could hire a professional. Or you can keep learning. That's what
professionals do.

[Arny Krueger]

"HL0105" wrote in message

At the bar where I do karaoke, I talked the KJ into
making recordings of our singing. So he
brought a (Gemini IKey Plus) Portable USB Recorder, and
connected it to the (RCA Record Out) on his (American DJ
QFX Pro) mixer.

When we listened to the recording the next day, we
noticed two problems. One was that for some of the louder
singers, there was distortion. The KJ's theory on why
this happened was that the gain setting on the mixer (set
at one quarter setting) was too high for recording
purposes.

There are level indicator lights on the front of the Gemini IKey Plus. Is
overloading indicated by them?

And that gain setting could not be turned down;
it had to be at least that high since this was karaoke in
a bar environment.

The other problem we noticed was that there was no
background noise at all to supplement the singer's voice;
it sounded like a studio recording. And without this
ambient crowd noise, you heard every imperfection in the
singing. And since karaoke singers are amateurs; well
there were LOTS of imperfections.

As other posters have pointed out, this is a common problem. The ideal
solution is to add another mixer and microphone, and use that mixer to add
background noise to your recordings.

So we tried a second recording attempt. This time without
any input from the mixer; the recorder's built-in
microphone was used. The result had plenty of crowd
noise, so we accomplished that. The problem: *too much*
crowd noise. The noise of the crowd was at such a high
level, that in some cases you could barely hear the
singer. I couldn't believe that this tiny microphone on
the Recorder was that sensitive. Imagine hearing about 25
loud conversations at once - in a phone booth.

As other posters have pointed out, what you want to do is do acoustical
mixing. You can vary the proportioning between crowd noise and the Karoke
sound by moving the mic closer to the crowd, or closer to the Karoke
speakers.

So for our third recording attempt we placed the Recorder
one foot away from the monitor speaker, assuming that
this would result in the singer's voice being the loudest
part of the recording, much louder than the crowd noise.
Didn't work. At all. Regardless of the fact that the mic
was that close to the speaker, it was the exact same
result. The noise of the crowd was at such a high level,
that in some cases you could barely hear the singer.
Baffling!

I agree, I'm surprised that your experiment with acoustical mixing couldn't
come up with a better mix.

(Now more specifically, the mic was situated closer to
the woofer, rather than higher up and closer to the
tweeter...but I don't believe that would be a factor
here.)

Maybe yes, maybe no.

So we're back to square one. How the heck do we get some
decent recordings?? If anyone has any insight on this, it
would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Get another small mixer to front end the Gemini IKey Plus. The mixer needs
only one mic input. The other input to the mixer should be from the Karoke
mixer, the signal you origionally intended to send to the Gemini IKey Plus.
Feed the output of this new mixer to the Gemini IKey Plus. By varying the
channel gains on the new mixer you should be able to get the proportioning
of Karaoke sound and room sound that you desire.

BTW, while we don't do karoke at my church any more, I do something similar
for recordings we make of our church services. I have some room mics that I
use to mix room sounds into the feed to a recorder and some remote places
where people listen to the church service. We had the same problem with the
imperfections in the largely amateur singer's voices sounding kinda nasty in
the recordings we make of church services.

[HL0105]

On Mar 10, 7:32*pm, Mickey wrote:
On 2008-03-10, HL0105 wrote:

At the bar where I do karaoke, I talked the KJ into making recordings
of our singing. So he
brought a (Gemini IKey Plus) Portable USB Recorder, and connected it
to the (RCA Record Out) on his (American DJ QFX Pro) mixer.

When we listened to the recording the next day, we noticed two
problems. One was that for some of the louder singers, there was
distortion. The KJ's theory on why this happened was that the gain
setting on the mixer (set at one quarter setting) was too high for
recording purposes. And that gain setting could not be turned down; it
had to be at least that high since this was karaoke in a bar
environment.

You mean there is no input level control on the recorder?
It is probably meant for the -10Db of home recording, and the
mixer puts out +4Db levels.


Actually I think there is an input level control on the recorder. As
mentioned in another post.
And I believe the KJ has set the level of input as he saw fit.

I take it the mixer has no other busses to send out on.


The KJ told me his mixer has 3 outputs:
1. Master Out - which he sent to the speakers.
2. RCA Booth out - which he normally doesn't use. It would be used for
a Powered Subwoofers, or an extra monitor.
3. RCA Record Out - which is what he sent to the Recorder.


The other problem we noticed was that there was no background noise at
all to supplement the singer's voice; it sounded like a studio
recording. And without this ambient crowd noise, you heard every
imperfection in the singing. And since karaoke singers are amateurs;
well there were LOTS of imperfections.

That just means no effects were going to the recording output.

If you told us the mixer model, we might actually have a fighting
chance of telling you how to hook it up so it worked. 8-)


I did tell you, in my original post. American DJ QFX Pro.

--
Mickey
Some people have twenty years of experience, some people have
one year of experience twenty times over. -- Anonymous

[Mickey]

On 2008-03-11, HL0105 wrote:
On Mar 10, 7:32*pm, Mickey wrote:
On 2008-03-10, HL0105 wrote:

At the bar where I do karaoke, I talked the KJ into making recordings
of our singing. So he
brought a (Gemini IKey Plus) Portable USB Recorder, and connected it
to the (RCA Record Out) on his (American DJ QFX Pro) mixer.

When we listened to the recording the next day, we noticed two
problems. One was that for some of the louder singers, there was
distortion. The KJ's theory on why this happened was that the gain
setting on the mixer (set at one quarter setting) was too high for
recording purposes. And that gain setting could not be turned down; it
had to be at least that high since this was karaoke in a bar
environment.

You mean there is no input level control on the recorder?
It is probably meant for the -10Db of home recording, and the
mixer puts out +4Db levels.


Actually I think there is an input level control on the recorder. As
mentioned in another post. And I believe the KJ has set the level of
input as he saw fit.

I meant on the recorder, separate from the mixer.


I take it the mixer has no other busses to send out on.


The KJ told me his mixer has 3 outputs:
1. Master Out - which he sent to the speakers.
2. RCA Booth out - which he normally doesn't use. It would be used for
a Powered Subwoofers, or an extra monitor.

The booth out has a level control, so that is what you should use if it
is not in use.

3. RCA Record Out - which is what he sent to the Recorder.


The other problem we noticed was that there was no background noise at
all to supplement the singer's voice; it sounded like a studio
recording. And without this ambient crowd noise, you heard every
imperfection in the singing. And since karaoke singers are amateurs;
well there were LOTS of imperfections.

That just means no effects were going to the recording output.

If you told us the mixer model, we might actually have a fighting
chance of telling you how to hook it up so it worked. 8-)


I did tell you, in my original post. American DJ QFX Pro.


It is hard to believe they get $350.00 for that thing on the street...
Why can't you run from the cueing output, and use it's level control?

--
Mickey
If you think nobody cares if you're alive, try missing a couple of
car payments. -- Earl Wilson

[Richard Crowley]

"HL0105" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote:

That recorder doesn't have a built-in mic.

Sure it does. The updated iKey PLUS model includes a stereo T-mic.

An accessory that (optionally) plugs in is not
"built-in" by anybody's definition I know of.

If you want to complain about the effect of having
the mic in the wrong place but then insist on leaving
it wherever it plugs in, we likely can't help you.

So we're back to square one. How the heck do we get some decent
recordings?? If anyone has any insight on this, it would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks!

Simple answer. Move the recording mic around (likely somewhere
in front of the main speakers) to the point where the PA
sound vs. the ambient noise is pleasing to you.

Move the recording mic around? That's exactly what we did, between
recording attempts two and three. As stated in my original post...on
recording attempt three, we placed the Recorder one foot away from the
monitor speaker.

Go back and read my message again more carefully.
(Hint: I never mentioned the monitor speaker.)

Technically correct answer: Use a recording mixer where you
can adjust the: singer(s), trax, and ambient sounds in the
proper proportion for recording.

Already asked the KJ about that option. He said that his mixer
unfortunately does not have that capability. He has seperate trax for
the inputs, but not for the outputs.

At the risk of repeating myself: Go back and read
what I wrote more carefully. (Hint: I never mentioned
using the DJ's mixer.)

It's your choice. If you think its not worth doing right,
I'm sure you know best.

[Mike Rivers]

On Mar 10, 9:57 pm, HL0105 wrote:

We had the Recorder on a mic stand. It was level with, and about a
foot away from, the woofer. We would've had to raise it up another
foot or so to make it level with the tweeter.

You need to balance at least three things here. It needs to be far
enough away from the speaker so that you get a well balanced sound,
not the sound of the woofer or the sound of the tweeter. Maybe raising
the mic six inches would have been the best position.

Then, you need to adjust the relative distance between the mic and the
speaker and the mic and the audience. And you also need to recognize
that (assuming the mic is at least somewhat directional) the audience,
assuming you know about the directionality and have oriented the mic
correctly, will be coming into the back side of the mic, which will
have lower sensitivity than the front side, and as well, will have
uneven frequency response.

You just have to experiment with this in each situation. There's no
magic formula, even if you had a tape measure. Hanging the microphone
from the ceiling might work better than putting it on a stand in front
of a speaker.

So you're saying it was that particular placement of the mic?

Yup.

[Mike Rivers]

On Mar 10, 11:53 pm, HL0105 wrote:

The KJ told me his mixer has 3 outputs:
1. Master Out - which he sent to the speakers.
2. RCA Booth out - which he normally doesn't use. It would be used for
a Powered Subwoofers, or an extra monitor.
3. RCA Record Out - which is what he sent to the Recorder.

It's possible that the Booth Out has an independent volume control. If
so, you could use that to record the mixer output and use the control
for the Booth volume to get the proper level to the recorder so that
it won't distort.

I did tell you, in my original post. American DJ QFX Pro.

I was unable to find, within the first three pages of a Google search,
any technical details (like a manual or block diagram) about this
mixer, so I can't verify what comes out of which output.

Still, using this output will get only as much of the audience sound
as leaks into the singer's microphone, which will, as you experienced,
be very little.

[HL0105]

On Mar 10, 9:32*pm, "Tim Perry" wrote:
"HL0105" wrote in message

...

At the bar where I do karaoke, I talked the KJ into making recordings
of our singing. So he
brought a (Gemini IKey Plus) Portable USB Recorder, and connected it
to the (RCA Record Out) on his (American DJ QFX Pro) mixer.

When we listened to the recording the next day, we noticed two
problems. One was that for some of the louder singers, there was
distortion. The KJ's theory on why this happened was that the gain
setting on the mixer (set at one quarter setting) was too high for
recording purposes. And that gain setting could not be turned down; it
had to be at least that high since this was karaoke in a bar
environment.

according to the listed features there is a record volume control *in the
IKey Plus. turn it down
there is also a clip indicator... it is not supposed to flash when
recording.


So noted. Thanks.


The other problem we noticed was that there was no background noise at
all to supplement the singer's voice; it sounded like a studio
recording.

good, you can add crowd noise in from a loop or sample.


Interesting suggestion. I'll run it by the KJ.

And without this ambient crowd noise, you heard every
imperfection in the singing.

try singing perfectly?


What a novel idea. Now why didn't I think of that? Okay you got it.
From now on, we'll just sing pefectly. Problem solved.

And since karaoke singers are amateurs;

the pros call it a "track act".


In our case it's more like a "crack addict."

well there were LOTS of imperfections.

hint: try not drinking before you sing.


It's the audience doing the drinking. Personally I prefer a couple
hits of acid.


So we tried a second recording attempt. This time without any input
from the mixer; the recorder's built-in microphone was used. The
result had plenty of crowd noise, so we accomplished that. The
problem: *too much* crowd noise. The noise of the crowd was at such a
high level, that in some cases you could barely hear the singer. I
couldn't believe that this tiny microphone on the Recorder was that
sensitive. Imagine hearing about 25 loud conversations at once - in a
phone booth.

it's an omnidirectionl mic. that's going to happen in a loud bar.



So for our third recording attempt we placed the Recorder one foot
away from the monitor speaker, assuming that this would result in the
singer's voice being the loudest part of the recording, much louder
than the crowd noise. Didn't work. At all. Regardless of the fact that
the mic was that close to the speaker, it was the exact same result.
The noise of the crowd was at such a high level, that in some cases
you could barely hear the singer. Baffling!

(Now more specifically, the mic was situated closer to the woofer,
rather than higher up and closer to the tweeter...but I don't believe
that would be a factor here.)

place the mic equidistant between the woofer and the horn back about 3 feet.

[HL0105]

Thanks to everyone (well almost everyone) who took the time to respond
with suggestions and comments. I didn't get a chance to respond
directly to each of you, but overall you've given me some interesting
ideas. I'll pass them on to the KJ.

- Dave

http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingn..._singer_d.html