[ilaboo]

i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate

given a circuit design--like a phono preamp

how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of
puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires
etc

is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such
neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design

i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is
softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about
the physical construction

tia
peter

[Serge Auckland[_2_]]

"ilaboo" wrote in message
news:kSxyj.2025$6R.278@trnddc04...
i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate

given a circuit design--like a phono preamp

how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows
of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of
wires etc

is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such
neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design

i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is
softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what
about the physical construction

tia
peter


I would love to reply to you, but I find it very difficult to understand
what you're asking. Have you *any* idea how difficult it is to understand a
posting with no punctuation or capital letters? You would do much better if
you wrote your posts in proper English, and not as if you were creating a
text message for a mobile 'phone.

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

[Richard Crowley]

"ilaboo" wrote ...
i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet
is appropriate

This message was addressed ONLY to rec.audio.tech
It is not cross-posted. Perhaps you meant to say that
this message was multi-posted separately to other NG.
Note that multi-posting an identical message is NOT
as desirable as real cross-posting.

given a circuit design--like a phono preamp
how do i go about building it?--i know about layout
boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores but each
time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc

Note that if you are making only one or two boards,
people use "generic" PC boards. Many of these look
just like your push-in connector boards, but you
solder the components in place in the same way
you had them in the breadboard.

is there some software to help constructing them--how
do people get such neat layoouts on pc boards from a
circuit design

There are special CAD products just to capture electronic
circuit diagrams. And there are also special CAD products
for PC boards. Many vendors have both (circuit & PC)
and link them together so that a circuit described in the
circuit CAD can be easily "imported" into the PC board
CAD tool.

Very complex boards like digital circuits are typically
"auto-routed" where a human places the various
components on the board, and then the software
automatically draws the lines between the pins to
re-create the circuit as descirbed in the circuit CAD
information.

OTOH, many analog boards, and particularly those
which deal with critical signals (RF, very low currents,
etc.) are often layed out and routed by hand.

i know about cad and suspect there is something
simil;iar--i know there is softwadre to design circuits
and actually test them on screen but what about
the physical construction

There are many ways of making PC boards once you
have the image of the copper pads and tracks. There
are many methods of doing it yourself at home or in
a small commercial operation. And there are also many
vendors of custom PC board fabrication.

There are several companies in the US (incluing one
across town from me) who have a national business
making PC boards from files people send them over
the internet. They offer anything from overnight to 3-5
day service for various prices.

And there are board fabricators in places like China
and Bulgaria who also do a brisk international business
in PC board fabrication from files sent to them over
the internet.

[Eeyore]

ilaboo wrote:

i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate

No, this is not cross-posted. There is only one group in the headers.


given a circuit design--like a phono preamp

how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of
puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires
etc

Well yes, you start with a rat's nest and then route the traces/tracks.


is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such
neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design

There are auto-routers but these are rarely ideal for audio since they weren't
designed with that in mind.


i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is
softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about
the physical construction

Well .. how did you get these rat's nests you talked of ? It would be a CAD
program.

Graham

[Geoff]

ilaboo wrote:
i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate

given a circuit design--like a phono preamp

how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve
rows of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a
rats nest of wires etc

is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get
such neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design

i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know
there is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on
screen but what about the physical construction

Go to an electronics hobby store and buy a kitset.

geoff

[Karl[_4_]]

"ilaboo" wrote in message
news:kSxyj.2025$6R.278@trnddc04...
i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate

given a circuit design--like a phono preamp

how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows
of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of
wires etc

is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such
neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design

i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is
softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what
about the physical construction

I downloaded the educational (free) version of EAGLE Layout Editor from
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/, and entered my schematic, and laid out the
circuit board. Then, I paid $50.00 US to have http://www.custompcb.com/ to
make four prototype boards. The project was quite successful.

If you want to make more than two layer boards, bigger than about 3" x 4"
you need the professional version of EAGLE, and of course, the cost of the
prototypes goes up. for audio, you can probably get by with two layers, but
four layers is nice, because you can make power and ground planes, which can
add dramatically to the stability of the device, and ease layout and routing
concerns.

[Ian Iveson]

I feel the same way.

There is no single formal method that accommodates the many
constraints and objectives. This is not easy for engineers
to accept...too much freedom feels like art.

The general area of maths that the problem belongs to is
called "operations research"... loads of matrix algebra and
iterative methods originally put together to help get
merchant ships across the Atlantic without getting sunk by
the enemy, who at the time were Germans. Some classic
operations research applications have obvious similarities
to circuit design, such as finding the shortest route
passing through a given set of many cities, or the most
economical way of providing many warehouses from many
factories.

Such methodologies are generally so lengthy to do manually
that you could have muddled through to an acceptable
solution ages before you could optimise mathematically. So,
until very recently, muddle through is what everyone did.
The more experience you have, the quicker you can muddle.
Partly this is due to increasing confidence that muddling is
best, and partly it's because you develop some rules of
thumb.

Computers have changed the world possibly in this way more
than any other. Doing calculations faster than before is
itself of limited value. The revolution is that if they are
fast enough, they can be done in real time, and so become
useful for the first time. Route planning software is
commonplace, but the formal methods were rarely used
manually because calculation was slower than muddling.

Similarly for circuit board design AFAIK.

For muddling through, you need sufficient spatial ability to
envisage how to simplify the rats nest by relocating,
rotating, and inverting components. A bit like untangling
the strings of a puppet. You need to think several moves
ahead, accept that things may get worse before they get
better, but also that sometimes it's time to rip up and
retry (unlike a puppet, where eventually you cut and
restring).

It helps to realise that several possible objectives
conflict with each other. You may want the shortest total
track length, or the most compact layout, or the most
logical, or the one with the fewest jumpers, or one with
orthogonal tracks or components or both. You can't have all
these at once, generally, so you have to compromise.

Good layout software, complete with fully-fledged
autorouter, is not free AFAIK. Limited and dedicated
versions can be found free from board manufacturers that
cater for prototypes and small runs.
http://www.pcb-pool.com/ springs to mind. A good autorouter
should allow you to weight all your objectives and
constraints rather than simply choose between them.

A stripboard autorouter would be a fine thing. If you want
your design to be neat, orthogonal and logical, you need
lots of jumpers and the board area to accommodate them. It
takes many iterations even for quite a simple circuit.

All in all, there is no silver bullet. Don't underestimate
the skills of good electronics design engineers.

Ian

[ilaboo]

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"ilaboo" wrote ...
i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate

This message was addressed ONLY to rec.audio.tech
It is not cross-posted. Perhaps you meant to say that
this message was multi-posted separately to other NG.
Note that multi-posting an identical message is NOT
as desirable as real cross-posting.

given a circuit design--like a phono preamp how do i go about building
it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores
but each
time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc

Note that if you are making only one or two boards,
people use "generic" PC boards. Many of these look
just like your push-in connector boards, but you
solder the components in place in the same way
you had them in the breadboard.

is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such
neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design

There are special CAD products just to capture electronic
circuit diagrams. And there are also special CAD products
for PC boards. Many vendors have both (circuit & PC)
and link them together so that a circuit described in the
circuit CAD can be easily "imported" into the PC board
CAD tool.

Very complex boards like digital circuits are typically
"auto-routed" where a human places the various
components on the board, and then the software
automatically draws the lines between the pins to
re-create the circuit as descirbed in the circuit CAD
information.

OTOH, many analog boards, and particularly those
which deal with critical signals (RF, very low currents,
etc.) are often layed out and routed by hand.

i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there
is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what
about the physical construction

There are many ways of making PC boards once you
have the image of the copper pads and tracks. There
are many methods of doing it yourself at home or in
a small commercial operation. And there are also many
vendors of custom PC board fabrication.
There are several companies in the US (incluing one across town from me)
who have a national business making PC boards from files people send them
over the internet. They offer anything from overnight to 3-5 day service
for various prices.
And there are board fabricators in places like China and Bulgaria who also
do a brisk international business in PC board fabrication from files sent
to them over the internet.

super thanks
peter

[ilaboo]

"Karl" wrote in message
news:BfFyj.1275$LK3.116@trndny02...
"ilaboo" wrote in message
news:kSxyj.2025$6R.278@trnddc04...
i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate

given a circuit design--like a phono preamp

how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows
of puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of
wires etc

is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such
neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design

i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there
is softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what
about the physical construction

I downloaded the educational (free) version of EAGLE Layout Editor from
http://www.cadsoftusa.com/, and entered my schematic, and laid out the
circuit board. Then, I paid $50.00 US to have http://www.custompcb.com/ to
make four prototype boards. The project was quite successful.

If you want to make more than two layer boards, bigger than about 3" x 4"
you need the professional version of EAGLE, and of course, the cost of the
prototypes goes up. for audio, you can probably get by with two layers,
but four layers is nice, because you can make power and ground planes,
which can add dramatically to the stability of the device, and ease layout
and routing concerns.


fantastic program!!

thanks
peter

[ilaboo]

"Ian Iveson" wrote in message
.uk...
I feel the same way.

There is no single formal method that accommodates the many constraints
and objectives. This is not easy for engineers to accept...too much
freedom feels like art.

The general area of maths that the problem belongs to is called
"operations research"... loads of matrix algebra and iterative methods
originally put together to help get merchant ships across the Atlantic
without getting sunk by the enemy, who at the time were Germans. Some
classic operations research applications have obvious similarities to
circuit design, such as finding the shortest route passing through a given
set of many cities, or the most economical way of providing many
warehouses from many factories.

Such methodologies are generally so lengthy to do manually that you could
have muddled through to an acceptable solution ages before you could
optimise mathematically. So, until very recently, muddle through is what
everyone did. The more experience you have, the quicker you can muddle.
Partly this is due to increasing confidence that muddling is best, and
partly it's because you develop some rules of thumb.

Computers have changed the world possibly in this way more than any other.
Doing calculations faster than before is itself of limited value. The
revolution is that if they are fast enough, they can be done in real time,
and so become useful for the first time. Route planning software is
commonplace, but the formal methods were rarely used manually because
calculation was slower than muddling.

Similarly for circuit board design AFAIK.

For muddling through, you need sufficient spatial ability to envisage how
to simplify the rats nest by relocating, rotating, and inverting
components. A bit like untangling the strings of a puppet. You need to
think several moves ahead, accept that things may get worse before they
get better, but also that sometimes it's time to rip up and retry (unlike
a puppet, where eventually you cut and restring).

It helps to realise that several possible objectives conflict with each
other. You may want the shortest total track length, or the most compact
layout, or the most logical, or the one with the fewest jumpers, or one
with orthogonal tracks or components or both. You can't have all these at
once, generally, so you have to compromise.

Good layout software, complete with fully-fledged autorouter, is not free
AFAIK. Limited and dedicated versions can be found free from board
manufacturers that cater for prototypes and small runs.
http://www.pcb-pool.com/ springs to mind. A good autorouter should allow
you to weight all your objectives and constraints rather than simply
choose between them.

A stripboard autorouter would be a fine thing. If you want your design to
be neat, orthogonal and logical, you need lots of jumpers and the board
area to accommodate them. It takes many iterations even for quite a simple
circuit.

All in all, there is no silver bullet. Don't underestimate the skills of
good electronics design engineers.

Ian


fantastic help and i appreciate it

thanks again
peter

[Don Pearce]

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 00:03:34 GMT, "Ian Iveson"
wrote:


Good layout software, complete with fully-fledged
autorouter, is not free AFAIK. Limited and dedicated
versions can be found free from board manufacturers that
cater for prototypes and small runs.
http://www.pcb-pool.com/ springs to mind. A good autorouter
should allow you to weight all your objectives and
constraints rather than simply choose between them.

It is a long time since I did any circuit layout, but I remember that
way back, even the best autorouters did not do low-level audio well.
You always had to lay out the input circuitry manually because none of
them had a facility for star point grounding of selected tracks. Is
that any different these days?

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

[Arny Krueger]

"ilaboo" wrote in message
news:kSxyj.2025$6R.278@trnddc04
i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is
appropriate
given a circuit design--like a phono preamp

how do i go about building it?--i know about layout
boards that ahve rows of puish in connectores but each
time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires etc

(1) Take a piece of paper and lay out the major active components, inputs,
outputs, and controls in a row or a series of rows that correspond to the
circuit's over-all function. Space these most important components widely.
Put all inputs on the left and as many outputs as possible on the right.

(2) Draw in the remaining supporting and connecting components, trying to
minimize the number of lines that cross each other.

(3) Redraw the resulting diagram to minimize any excessive white space, if
necessary.

is there some software to help constructing them--how do
people get such neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit
design

Usually, audio gear is simple enough that computer aids are not a
requirement. However, a good drawing program like Visio or Corel Draw can
help you obtain a neater appearance, once you learn how to use them. When
you use a drawing program, you obtain or develop a number of small drawings
or clips of commonly-used components. You define a grid for snapping, so
that the program will simplify the problem of aligning parts to get a neat,
orderly appearance. You then duplicate component clips onto the grid and
orient them following steps 1-3 above. Finally, you draw the lines that
connect the components together into a circuit.

i know about cad and suspect there is something
simil;iar--i know there is softwadre to design circuits
and actually test them on screen but what about the
physical construction

Circuit simulation programs of necessity have some kind of circuit drawing
facilities. Circuit simulators like VHDL and various flavors of SPICE are
used for this purpose. There are many others. Seach google for "circuit
simulator".

[[email protected]]

On Mar 3, 8:24 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
Circuit simulation programs of necessity have some
kind of circuit drawing facilities. Circuit simulators like
VHDL and various flavors of SPICE are used for this
purpose.

Well, no, simulators do NOT have, "of necessity" some
kind of circuit drawing program. While many of them have
them as a convenience, the ultimate input to a simulator
has to be some sort of net list, and they are, by their very
nature, not graphic but tabular, in many cases.

SPICE, for example, which has been around since the
at least the mid-1970's, had ONLY a tabular net list input,
and more recent versions have graphical inputs that are
simply front-end wrappers for the underlying text.

[Ross Matheson]

"Ian Iveson" writes in
eyonder.co.uk:

Good layout software, complete with fully-fledged
autorouter, is not free AFAIK.

Maybe. But it's worth renewing the search occasionally. Like, say, on
"free pcb software". One link I found in a brief scan of my horrendously
disorganised bookmarks file was http://www.freebyte.com/cad/cad.htm

I'm sure there are other and maybe better collections of such links.

But there are undoubtedly varying standards of "good".

A stripboard autorouter would be a fine thing.

Have you *tried* a search on "stripboard autorouter"?

I was interested to see a few, now; the only stripboard prog I'd installed was
http://www.geocities.com/stripboarddesigner/ back in 2002!

All in all, there is no silver bullet.

One may be invented soon, or already;- surely some are working on it! (;=}))

Ian

Ross

[Ross Matheson]

Eeyore asked in
:


ilaboo wrote:

snip

Well .. how did you get these rat's nests you talked of ? It would be a CAD
program.

Graham

It seemed fairly clear to me that he was using it as a metaphor for the
resultant actual physical construction he'd arrived at without a CAD program:-
indeed, from a layout board with push-in connectors ...
--
Ross

[dizzy]

ilaboo wrote:

i hve cross posted this as i am not sudre this usenet is appropriate

given a circuit design--like a phono preamp

how do i go about building it?--i know about layout boards that ahve rows of
puish in connectores but each time i try to do it i get a rats nest of wires
etc

is there some software to help constructing them--how do people get such
neat layoouts on pc boards from a circuit design

i know about cad and suspect there is something simil;iar--i know there is
softwadre to design circuits and actually test them on screen but what about
the physical construction

www.expresspcb.com