As countless people agree, Norah Jones has an excellent voice and is a
skilled pianist and songwriter in her own right. But on the album,
her voice is suspiciously flat almost all the time; she constantly
seems to hit about a half-note below what the proper pitch would be.
It's one of those things that you might not notice at first, but when
you do, it becomes so obvious that you just can't ignore it anymore.

However, I had the opportunity to hear Norah singing "Don't Know Why"
live on Saturday Night Live, and he was right on-pitch! She didn't
hit a single bad note, either vocally or on the piano, during the
whole performance, and I was very impressed. I've since come across
an early recording of her singing "One Flight Down" live (at The
Living Room in NYC in 2000) and in that case she's also spot-on pitch
and flawless -- in fact, were it not for the occasional clinking of
chinaware in the background and the applause at the end, it could pass
for a final mix of a studio recording.

So, the question is, who and *why* was Norah told to *purposely* sing
flat on her album? If that was just part of her "style", you'd expect
her to do it when singing live as well, but that's not the case.
Would she NOT have won so many Grammys if she had sung "Don't Know
Why" on-pitch? I don't think so....

Lots of vocalists with good pitch sing flat when using headphones.

The standard fix....one ear on, one ear off (headphones that is).

Regards,

MM

Michael McInnis Productions
www.mm-pro.com






"WBRW" wrote in message om...
As countless people agree, Norah Jones has an excellent voice and is a
skilled pianist and songwriter in her own right. But on the album,
her voice is suspiciously flat almost all the time; she constantly
seems to hit about a half-note below what the proper pitch would be.
It's one of those things that you might not notice at first, but when
you do, it becomes so obvious that you just can't ignore it anymore.

However, I had the opportunity to hear Norah singing "Don't Know Why"
live on Saturday Night Live, and he was right on-pitch! She didn't
hit a single bad note, either vocally or on the piano, during the
whole performance, and I was very impressed. I've since come across
an early recording of her singing "One Flight Down" live (at The
Living Room in NYC in 2000) and in that case she's also spot-on pitch
and flawless -- in fact, were it not for the occasional clinking of
chinaware in the background and the applause at the end, it could pass
for a final mix of a studio recording.

So, the question is, who and *why* was Norah told to *purposely* sing
flat on her album? If that was just part of her "style", you'd expect
her to do it when singing live as well, but that's not the case.
Would she NOT have won so many Grammys if she had sung "Don't Know
Why" on-pitch? I don't think so....

U¿ytkownik "Michael McInnis" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Lots of vocalists with good pitch sing flat when using headphones.

The standard fix....one ear on, one ear off (headphones that is).

Sometimes proper volume mix between music and vocal on headphones may help.





--
Serwis Usenet w portalu Gazeta.pl - http://www.gazeta.pl/usenet/

I do think too much level can cause a singer to be sharp...I don't know if this from pushing too hard to get "on top" of the
level, or something in the physics of waves & membranes.

I wonder about latency & pitch as well.

A lot of singers seem to do better overall hearing some of themselves in real air, for whatever reason. So, before I chalk
it up to lack of talent, I always try the headphone deal.

Regards,

MM

Michael McInnis Productions
www.mm-pro.com



"Ty Ford" wrote in message ...
I was wondering if the phenomenon was that headphones always cause flatting.
Does anyone know if headphones may also cause sharping?

And what's that about anyway? Too much level in the headphones might cause
the tympanic membrane to be pushed slightly out of shape? Would that make
the singer's voice appear higher in pitch than it really is?

Regards,

Ty Ford

nuke wrote:

So, the question is, who and *why* was Norah told to *purposely* sing
flat on her album? I BRBR

They are called producers.

Must have worked. She sold a metric ****load of copies of that album.

I was just trying to remember the name of the last guy who thought to
build his career on second guessing Arif Mardin...

--
ha

All true. A great cue mix is always helpful.

Still, some singers need the non-electronic room sound...I don't know why.

Regards,

MM

Michael McInnis Productions
www.mm-pro.com



"Chris Coleman" wrote in message om...
That depends on what "level" you're talking about. Louder overall
headphone volume tends to make someone push a little to get above the
mix in the cans... but I find the following to be true more often than
not:
1) When the vocals are hotter than the backing tracks in the headphone
mix, the singer tends to get tenative and starts flatting and...
2) When the backing tracks are hotter, the singer starts going sharp
trying to hear themselves.

For me, before I start telling the talent that they're going flat or
sharp I ask "how's the headphone mix?"

Different cans can help, too.

Pitch is only part of performance. A slightly flat (or "blue") note says a
lot more about tension and expresses relaxation and conveys a sense of being
tired or worn down much better than perfect pitch - which is brighter and
more energetic. For many songs or phrases, slightly under or over exact
pitch is far more expressive than perfect pitch. Pop music is more
conversational than commercial ads or classical technique and requires a
conversational aspect to be received emotionally by a pop audience. Making
things perfect in pitch kills most pop recordings, her disc is a perfect
example of not killing the disc and using pitch as a tool, not a rule.
Otto

"Ricky W. Hunt" wrote in message
news:IKwSa.105321$ye4.77902@sccrnsc01...
"WBRW" wrote in message
om...
As countless people agree, Norah Jones has an excellent voice and is a
skilled pianist and songwriter in her own right. But on the album,
her voice is suspiciously flat almost all the time; she constantly
seems to hit about a half-note below what the proper pitch would be.
It's one of those things that you might not notice at first, but when
you do, it becomes so obvious that you just can't ignore it anymore.

I think this is just a sad side effect of all the other current artists
using pitch correction (whether they need it or not) and kudos to her
producers for NOT using it. Someone has be the bold first one. I've found
that after listening to lots of "current" music putting on some old
favorites that were "perfect" to me before sound almost unlistenable at
times because of "bad pitch" (but that's a relative remember). Autotune is
a
form of addiction and functions just like a drug addict that needs purer
and
purer levels to attain the same "high". Normal things no longer sound
"good
enough". Autotune is to good music as an apple is to corn syrup.

Ty Ford wrote:

In Article , "Michael McInnis"
wrote:
Lots of vocalists with good pitch sing flat when using headphones.

The standard fix....one ear on, one ear off (headphones that is).

Regards,

MM

Michael McInnis Productions
www.mm-pro.com

Thanks Michael,

I was wondering if the phenomenon was that headphones always cause flatting.
Does anyone know if headphones may also cause sharping?

And what's that about anyway? Too much level in the headphones might cause
the tympanic membrane to be pushed slightly out of shape? Would that make
the singer's voice appear higher in pitch than it really is?

Singers are fascinating. I've been fortunate to have worked with some very
accomplished, talented singers and their teachers who come from varied
pedagogies. The explanation I got is that singers have individual registers
(those parts of their anatomies which detect or interpret pitch!) and some are
blinded by headphones. Classically trained belcanto tenors, for instance, use
much of their body, even the feet, when singing. I can offer another tool that
sometimes helps. When singers are having a problem with pitch perception I
will strip the mix in their cans down to two elements, tempo and pitch. Some
singers will hear the bass better than a piano so for them I will leave a bit
of the drums and the bass. Others will relate to the guitar, whatever. One
fairly constant thing is that most IME have trouble singing with a full, high
volume mix. Oh, and I've seen singers go both sharp and flat on phones.

FWIW

Cheers,

TB
--
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true"

When singers are having a problem with pitch perception I
will strip the mix in their cans down to two elements, tempo and pitch.

This is great advice and can work wonders with some singers.


---------------------------------------
"I know enough to know I don't know enough"

"Ricky W. Hunt" wrote in message news:IKwSa.105321$ye4.77902@sccrnsc01...
"WBRW" wrote in message
om...
As countless people agree, Norah Jones has an excellent voice and is a
skilled pianist and songwriter in her own right. But on the album,
her voice is suspiciously flat almost all the time; she constantly
seems to hit about a half-note below what the proper pitch would be.
It's one of those things that you might not notice at first, but when
you do, it becomes so obvious that you just can't ignore it anymore.

I think this is just a sad side effect of all the other current artists
using pitch correction (whether they need it or not) and kudos to her
producers for NOT using it. Someone has be the bold first one. I've found
that after listening to lots of "current" music putting on some old
favorites that were "perfect" to me before sound almost unlistenable at
times because of "bad pitch" (but that's a relative remember). Autotune is a
form of addiction and functions just like a drug addict that needs purer and
purer levels to attain the same "high". Normal things no longer sound "good
enough". Autotune is to good music as an apple is to corn syrup.
Hilarious. Funny stuff. I certainly hope the poster didnt mean "half
note below"...now that would sound interesting.
Can you really see these producers telling someone to sing off key?
"No honey that was on pitch, can we try it again"? Unfortunately the
pitch correction era in music has made people used to perfect pitched
vocals and other things..like perfect rhythm section timing. I see it
in my own discernment of recordings. Jones' success has at least
somewhat proven that it's still songs and mood that people key into.
kelly

I never listened to her record but dont recall her being that flat from what
drifted over the radio. I thought it was a "choice" ala Billie Holiday or or
anyone else "jazz" or blues influenced , like bop players (jackie mclean comes
to mind) who play a bit sharp for tension. Pitch is such a funny thing because
many of the greatest records in the world have pitch problems all over. Ella
sang dead on most of the time but I'm trying to think of someone else who did.

I often notice headphones make people tune their instruments sharp and the mix
is key for a singer certainly, but different singers usually find what works
for them and it can vary a lot. I do more often hear women sing sharp and men
flat than the other way around.


P h i l i p

______________________________

"I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa"

- Dorothy Parker

"kelly mcguire" wrote in message
om...

Can you really see these producers telling someone to sing off key?
"No honey that was on pitch, can we try it again"? Unfortunately the
pitch correction era in music has made people used to perfect pitched
vocals and other things..like perfect rhythm section timing. I see it
in my own discernment of recordings. Jones' success has at least
somewhat proven that it's still songs and mood that people key into.

Carol Burnett sings well enough for Broadway. She used to mimic bad
singing just that way -- singing the song very near a semi-tone off pitch.
That might be harder than singing in key.

dtk

In article , Fill X
wrote:

I often notice headphones make people tune their instruments sharp and the mix
is key for a singer certainly, but different singers usually find what works
for them and it can vary a lot. I do more often hear women sing sharp and men
flat than the other way around.

Interesting. Perceived intervals expand as you listen louder and shrink
as you turn the volume down.

I had a chance once to experiment on a bunch of complete novices in a
class I taught with a vocal coach. Without exception, they all sang way
better in tune when none of their vocal was being fed to the phones.
Too bad we can't talk most folks into recording that way.

"dt king" wrote in message
thlink.net...
"kelly mcguire" wrote in message
om...

Can you really see these producers telling someone to sing off key?
"No honey that was on pitch, can we try it again"? Unfortunately the
pitch correction era in music has made people used to perfect pitched
vocals and other things..like perfect rhythm section timing. I see it
in my own discernment of recordings. Jones' success has at least
somewhat proven that it's still songs and mood that people key into.

Carol Burnett sings well enough for Broadway. She used to mimic bad
singing just that way -- singing the song very near a semi-tone off pitch.
That might be harder than singing in key.

dtk


Jo Stafford and Paul Weston (??) used to do a gag act at parties, where she
would sing (perfectly) a semi-tone flat. Paul's exagerated and flowery
piano accompaniment was brilliant. Later they recorded a couple of albums
as Jonathan and Darlene Edwards. The album cover showed two left hands
playing the piano.

Steve King

kelly mcguire wrote:

Can you really see these producers telling someone to sing off key?

One of the reasons Arif is so famous for his work with divas is that he
doesn't tell them what to do. In a largely male dominated environment he
puts his producer shoulder to the wheel on the woman's behalf, so that
she stands a chance of making the record she wants. And the results
speak for all of them.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

I was wondering if the phenomenon was that headphones always cause flatting.
Does anyone know if headphones may also cause sharping?

And what's that about anyway? Too much level in the headphones might cause
the tympanic membrane to be pushed slightly out of shape? Would that make
the singer's voice appear higher in pitch than it really is?

I find it to be psychological rather than physical...

If a singer, particularly an inexperienced one, has too much volume from the
track, or from their vocal in the 'phones, they tend to oversing to keep up and
then often go sharp.

Or, if there is too little of the track in the 'phones, they sometimes
undersing and go flat.

It's voodoo, a black art, really, with folks who don't sing in headphones a
lot, to figure out what it is they need to feel good and stay on pitch...

But then I work with a lot of these folks....

stv

Autotune is a form of addiction and functions just like a drug addict that
needs purer and purer levels to attain the same "high". Normal things no
longer sound "good enough". Autotune is to good music as an apple is to
corn syrup.

The same exact thing could be said about loudness/compression used in
audio mastering. Just as the "hypercompression wars" hit CDs in the
mid-'90s, the same thing happened to *cassettes* as well -- pull out
an old (but well-cared for) cassette from the '70s or '80s and you'd
be astonished by how much dynamic range they have (yes, even despite
the background hiss).

And in Ms. Jones' case, it is worthwhile to seek a copy of her "Early
Sessions" CD, which not only offers her songs in a more pure form,
lacking the over-dubbed backing vocals and extra instrumentation, it
is also refreshingly free from the over-compressed "grunge" of her
commercial CD release. It is amazing to be able to listen to "Don't
Know Why" without that awfully obvious clipping distortion during the
"loud" bridge parts -- and her voice isn't jacked up enough in
loudness to drown out the piano and drums, either.

Still, I perfer the live, on-pitch Saturday Night Live rendition of
the song. Unfortunately, I didn't have my VCR cued up at the time.
So, not that I condone "sharing" of copyrighted music, but does
anybody have a good-quality MP3 of it? Er... a "friend" of mine uses
Kazaa, and "he" hasn't been able to find it there yet.

"kelly mcguire" wrote in message
om...
Can you really see these producers telling someone to sing off key?
"No honey that was on pitch, can we try it again"?

Sure. And they'd refer to it as "old skool" or "analog".

"TarBabyTunes" wrote in message
...
I was wondering if the phenomenon was that headphones always cause
flatting.
Does anyone know if headphones may also cause sharping?

And what's that about anyway? Too much level in the headphones might cause
the tympanic membrane to be pushed slightly out of shape? Would that make
the singer's voice appear higher in pitch than it really is?

I find it to be psychological rather than physical...

I would think it was the vocal cords that are being pushed out of shape. The
singer can't hear themselves over the loud background music so they sing
harder thus "pushing sharp" via the forced air.

"WBRW" wrote in message
om...
As countless people agree, Norah Jones has an excellent voice and is a
skilled pianist and songwriter in her own right. But on the album,
her voice is suspiciously flat almost all the time; she constantly
seems to hit about a half-note below what the proper pitch would be.
It's one of those things that you might not notice at first, but when
you do, it becomes so obvious that you just can't ignore it anymore.


It's called expression', and can be done in both frequency and time domains.
In this case to provide a laid-back feel. Seems to have worked ....

However, I had the opportunity to hear Norah singing "Don't Know Why"
live on Saturday Night Live, and he was right on-pitch! She didn't
hit a single bad note, either vocally or on the piano, during the
whole performance, and I was very impressed.

Maybe it takes so much effort to acheive correctly, that she doesn't try the
pitch thing in live situtations.

So, the question is, who and *why* was Norah told to *purposely* sing
flat on her album? If that was just part of her "style", you'd expect
her to do it when singing live as well, but that's not the case.

She could have had that input *herself*. Not necessarily instructions from
producer.

Would she NOT have won so many Grammys if she had sung "Don't Know
Why" on-pitch? I don't think so....

Dunno, but less likely to have hit the same chord (so to speak) if the music
was done to a click and pitch-perfect. Would have sounded a little on the
sterile side maybe ...

geoff

Interesting. Perceived intervals expand as you listen louder and shrink
as you turn the volume down.


yes, I dont know why this has been the trend in my life. The instrument thing
is probably because it's always rock bands that are tuning through headphones
or using them in the first place their headphones are often unbelieveably loud.
The male/female thing I'm not sure about but it's probably has nothing to do
with headphones as much as how different people are pitch sensitive. Does
anyone know if people have a harder time hearing sharpness above a certain
octave?

I had a chance once to experiment on a bunch of complete novices in a
class I taught with a vocal coach. Without exception, they all sang way
better in tune when none of their vocal was being fed to the phones.
Too bad we can't talk most folks into recording that way.

Oh I know, and I've done it to myself too. We all want to hear those little
details of our voice in the headphones but it's often death for the feel of the
performance because the rhythm goes along with the pitch.



P h i l i p

______________________________

"I'm too ****ing busy and vice-versa"

- Dorothy Parker

One thing that isn't getting discussed in this headphones/mix thing is
the new world of DIY headphone mixing: if the artist has a 'more me'
box at their disposal, they can really mess things up and the engineer
won't be in the loop.

I was just working with a singer/songwriter who was singing and playing
at the same time, and had two elements at his control: guitar and voc,
right? By the end of the session he'd pushed the guitar up so far in
the phones that he was barely playing it, with almost more voc than
guitar in the guitar mics. Not a pretty sound.

--
John Etnier
Studio Dual
http://www.studiodual.com

LeBaron & Alrich wrote:

I was just trying to remember the name of the last guy who thought to
build his career on second guessing Arif Mardin...

One of the true giants in this industry. I'll buy something just
because his name's on it, even if I don't know the artist.

Sounds like when it's all said and done, it's easier for an
inexperienced "studio" vocalist to sing without headphones,
whether it's to the monitors or tracked live.

Self recorded both "with vs. without" headphones, and the
ones without were MUCH better. Not just pitch, the "feel".
(have good relative pitch BTW)

Read Nora's is going to be using a SM58 for her next album,
maybe that's what they're planning (no headphones).

Chris

Ty Ford wrote:

In Article , "Michael McInnis"
wrote:
Lots of vocalists with good pitch sing flat when using headphones.

The standard fix....one ear on, one ear off (headphones that is).

Regards,

MM

Michael McInnis Productions
www.mm-pro.com

Thanks Michael,

I was wondering if the phenomenon was that headphones always cause flatting.
Does anyone know if headphones may also cause sharping?


There was a discussion of this on the pro audio list a few months ago.
It is well known psychoacoustic phenomenon where quieter sounds are
perceived as being slightly flatter than louder sounds. Getting the
headphone level right is essential if you want the vocalist to pitch
correctly.

Cheers.

James.

So let's talk subtle........I think auto-tune is great, if you want your
vocal to sound like auto-tune. ;-) If I want to
correct pitch "problems", I will tweak in Samplitude, a couple cents here, a
couple a cents there, u know.
Sometimes pitch strangeness, can work emotionally to an advantage. Sit on
your hands, close your eyes and use your ears. It all depends on the song
and the singer.
Tom




"James Perrett" wrote in message
...
Ty Ford wrote:

In Article , "Michael McInnis"
wrote:
Lots of vocalists with good pitch sing flat when using headphones.

The standard fix....one ear on, one ear off (headphones that is).

Regards,

MM

Michael McInnis Productions
www.mm-pro.com

Thanks Michael,

I was wondering if the phenomenon was that headphones always cause
flatting.
Does anyone know if headphones may also cause sharping?


There was a discussion of this on the pro audio list a few months ago.
It is well known psychoacoustic phenomenon where quieter sounds are
perceived as being slightly flatter than louder sounds. Getting the
headphone level right is essential if you want the vocalist to pitch
correctly.

Cheers.

James.

In article writes:

Read Nora's is going to be using a SM58 for her next album,
maybe that's what they're planning (no headphones).

Now why would someone put this in a place where you could read it? If
it already happened, Shure would probably issue a press release, but
"is going to be using" sounds like someone's overactive imagination.

I don't think there's anything wrong with using an SM-58. It will
probably work just fine. But I can't see anyone announcing what
they're planning to use on a future session.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Mike Rivers wrote:

I don't think there's anything wrong with using an SM-58. It will
probably work just fine. But I can't see anyone announcing what
they're planning to use on a future session.

I heard Arif keeps a loaded SM58 in his wallet.

--
ha

Judging from what I've heard of your work, this goes into my book.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

301-585-4681




"Tonebarge" wrote in message
...
Ty Ford wrote:

In Article , "Michael McInnis"
wrote:
Lots of vocalists with good pitch sing flat when using headphones.

The standard fix....one ear on, one ear off (headphones that is).

Regards,

MM

Michael McInnis Productions
www.mm-pro.com

Thanks Michael,

I was wondering if the phenomenon was that headphones always cause
flatting.
Does anyone know if headphones may also cause sharping?

And what's that about anyway? Too much level in the headphones might
cause
the tympanic membrane to be pushed slightly out of shape? Would that
make
the singer's voice appear higher in pitch than it really is?

Singers are fascinating. I've been fortunate to have worked with some
very
accomplished, talented singers and their teachers who come from varied
pedagogies. The explanation I got is that singers have individual
registers
(those parts of their anatomies which detect or interpret pitch!) and some
are
blinded by headphones. Classically trained belcanto tenors, for instance,
use
much of their body, even the feet, when singing. I can offer another tool
that
sometimes helps. When singers are having a problem with pitch perception
I
will strip the mix in their cans down to two elements, tempo and pitch.
Some
singers will hear the bass better than a piano so for them I will leave a
bit
of the drums and the bass. Others will relate to the guitar, whatever.
One
fairly constant thing is that most IME have trouble singing with a full,
high
volume mix. Oh, and I've seen singers go both sharp and flat on phones.

FWIW

Cheers,

TB
--
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true"

n Article , "Michael McInnis"
wrote:
Lots of vocalists with good pitch sing flat when using headphones.

The standard fix....one ear on, one ear off (headphones that is).

Regards,

MM

Michael McInnis Productions
www.mm-pro.com

Thanks Michael,

I was wondering if the phenomenon was that headphones always cause flatting.
Does anyone know if headphones may also cause sharping?

And what's that about anyway? Too much level in the headphones might cause
the tympanic membrane to be pushed slightly out of shape? Would that make
the singer's voice appear higher in pitch than it really is?

Regards,

Ty Ford

For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford


I have one client who has done a lot of national jingles and never sings flat
show me a technique that may be helpful.

She has me crenk the headphone volume and then slided the headphones back off
her ears to get the correct level for herself.

I know that you get different perceptinns of pitch if headphones are forward,
centered and behind the ears. No idea why.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

"Richard Kuschel" wrote in message
...

I know that you get different perceptinns of pitch if headphones are
forward,
centered and behind the ears. No idea why.

For headphones, I'll bet it has a lot to do with the way heads are
constructed, with lots of hard stuff, soft stuff and hollow places.

I noticed that when I scratch my inner forearm, I can hear it in the back
of my head. Bone conduction?

Remember those radios that were designed to hang over your shoulders and
send sound through the back of your neck?

I play a windsynth. I've always wanted a piezo tranducer in the mouthpiece
so I could hear it through my teeth the way sax players do.

dtk

"Roger W. Norman" wrote:

Judging from what I've heard of your work, this goes into my book.

Thanks, Roger. Sometimes nothing but singing lessons will work, though. G

Cheers,

TB
--
All tribal myths are true, for a given value of "true"