[Rob Reedijk]

Thanks to everyone for your advice. I will be installing the audio
drive into a USB enclosure and running it from the laptop from which
I also use Wavelab, so that will get me back to work.

After further tests, I have determined that it is likely the
system harddrive (there are two harddrives). While it spins and
makes clicky noises at first, nothing shows up on the screen. However
when I boot from a win 98SE CD, I get a screen...

This is no big deal. I suppose I will grab another drive and reinstall.
I think I want to keep this one going at least just as a duplicating
machine since I often have to burn several CDRs. Well, I suppose I
could also migrate the CDR burner into a USB enclosure and run it
from whatever replaces the PII.

Rob R.

[Rob Reedijk]

Rob Reedijk wrote:
Thanks to everyone for your advice. I will be installing the audio
drive into a USB enclosure and running it from the laptop from which
I also use Wavelab, so that will get me back to work.

This worked out great.

After further tests, I have determined that it is likely the
system harddrive (there are two harddrives). While it spins and
makes clicky noises at first, nothing shows up on the screen. However
when I boot from a win 98SE CD, I get a screen...

Oops---not really. I was just lucky that time. Over the last while the
computer has been more and more finicky about booting up.

This machine appears to have a problem booting up. I keep wondering
if it has to do with how they start up.

Normally, to start it up, I push the little start button, which appears
to be a normally closed momentary switch.

There doesn't appear to be very much voltage across this switch (even
when it is open---it's in the millivolts)

So when I try to turn on the computer I basically plug in the power.
The drive spins up, it accesses the CD drive but nothing comes up on
the screen. When the computer was working normally, if I did this, it
would spin up for a moment and then shut down. It would only boot up
when I hit the start button.

I can tell you:
Memory is fine. I tried booting it up removing each stick one at a
time.
CMOS battery is fine. I put in a replacement.
Monitor is fine. I tried another one.

I don't know if there is a problem with the video "card"---this one doesn't
have an actual separate card.

It's an IBM 300PL Pentium II/Win98SE

Thanks

Rob R.

--
__________________________________________________ ____________________
Rob Reedijk Dept. of Biochemistry
University of Toronto
Medical Sciences Building
1 King's College Circle
tel: 416-978-0774 Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A8
Canada
__________________________________________________ ____________________

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

The ticking in the HD still makes me recommend cloning to a new HD, but....

When is the last time you put a power supply in the machine ??

Got one you can rob long enough to check it out on this machine?


DM

[Gerardus]

David Morgan (MAMS) said...
The ticking in the HD still makes me recommend cloning to a new HD, but....

When is the last time you put a power supply in the machine ??

Got one you can rob long enough to check it out on this machine?


DM



Long ago I had a HD with lots of reading errors until I put it vertical
instead of horizontal...

I worked its whole life vertical and trying to use it horizontal
made it unreliable.


Gerardus

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Gerardus wrote:

Long ago I had a HD with lots of reading errors until I put it
vertical instead of horizontal...

The ST157N manual states that it should be low level formatted in the
position it is used in and that it should be vertical or horisontal with a
few degrees of tolerance.

I worked its whole life vertical and trying to use it horizontal
made it unreliable.

Some harddisks can be low level formatted, some can't. You btw. mention that
it is about a disk that clicks. IF a disk has remapped a large area to spare
blocks then it will be noisy when the OS makes a full format or when that
zone is addressed because the heads has to jump to the sector(s) it is
remapped to. I have noticed this behaviour on three different harddisks, on
one of those after low level formatting it with the manufacturers software
because of bad blccks appearing to the OS, on one low level formatting was a
very brief event and obviously did not get done and one one it seems to have
remapped on its own initiave.

Gerardus

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Arny Krueger]

"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in
message news:5Mkij.7946$W73.3500@trnddc04
The ticking in the HD still makes me recommend cloning to
a new HD, but....

When is the last time you put a power supply in the
machine ??

Got one you can rob long enough to check it out on this
machine?

The ticking sound is almost certainly the hard drive on the brink of
failure.

[Arny Krueger]

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message

Gerardus wrote:

Long ago I had a HD with lots of reading errors until I
put it vertical instead of horizontal...

The ST157N manual states that it should be low level
formatted in the position it is used in and that it
should be vertical or horisontal with a few degrees of
tolerance.

The ST157n was new in what year?

The size is the tipoff - it was a 50 megabyte drive. No, I didn't mix up my
gigabytes and megabytes, it was a 50 megabyte nominal drive. Close to being
one of the first IDE drives ever!

I worked its whole life vertical and trying to use it
horizontal made it unreliable.

It's not supposed to happen with a modern drive.

Some harddisks can be low level formatted, some can't.

Not since the days of separate controllers, unless the vendor has some cheat
that allows you to do it.

You btw. mention that it is about a disk that clicks. IF
a disk has remapped a large area to spare blocks then it
will be noisy when the OS makes a full format or when
that zone is addressed because the heads has to jump to
the sector(s) it is remapped to.

In operation this is indistinguishable from normal seeking.

I have noticed this
behaviour on three different harddisks, on one of those
after low level formatting it with the manufacturers
software because of bad blccks appearing to the OS, on
one low level formatting was a very brief event and
obviously did not get done and one one it seems to have
remapped on its own initiave.

A drive that clicks several times infrequently; and randomly or at start up
is asking, no begging, to be replaced. The clicks are usually recalibrates,
which means that the drive has basically forgotten where its butt is, and
started out looking for its butt from the beginning. Not good.

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message


Gerardus wrote:

Long ago I had a HD with lots of reading errors until I
put it vertical instead of horizontal...

The ST157N manual states that it should be low level
formatted in the position it is used in and that it
should be vertical or horisontal with a few degrees of
tolerance.

The ST157n was new in what year?

89 probably, 1989, not 1889. Gravity is however unchanged it the relevant
speed range since the fall of the apple. Drive mechanisms otoh have a lot
less mass.

The size is the tipoff - it was a 50 megabyte drive. No, I didn't mix
up my gigabytes and megabytes, it was a 50 megabyte nominal drive.
Close to being one of the first IDE drives ever!

48 megs, and a SCSI drive, suffix N says that.

I worked its whole life vertical and trying to use it
horizontal made it unreliable.

It's not supposed to happen with a modern drive.

Some harddisks can be low level formatted, some can't.

Not since the days of separate controllers, unless the vendor has
some cheat that allows you to do it.

Quantum SCSI drives always refused, just when clickety-click and said done.
Early december I low level formatted a Hitachi 250 megs drive with the
vendors drive repair software.

You btw. mention that it is about a disk that clicks. IF
a disk has remapped a large area to spare blocks then it
will be noisy when the OS makes a full format or when
that zone is addressed because the heads has to jump to
the sector(s) it is remapped to.

In operation this is indistinguishable from normal seeking.

Absolutely not. It is extremely obvious during an OS full format that
normally goes click, click, click and suddenly goes clicketyclick,
clicketyclick for a short moment and then goes back to go click, click,
click.

A drive that clicks several times infrequently; and randomly or at
start up is asking, no begging, to be replaced. The clicks are
usually recalibrates, which means that the drive has basically
forgotten where its butt is, and started out looking for its butt
from the beginning. Not good.

Agreed, but that is a different issue. First make a backup, then test with
manufacturers drive software.

Do you have any experience with spinrite?

kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Rob Reedijk]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in
message news:5Mkij.7946$W73.3500@trnddc04
The ticking in the HD still makes me recommend cloning to
a new HD, but....

When is the last time you put a power supply in the
machine ??

Got one you can rob long enough to check it out on this
machine?

The ticking sound is almost certainly the hard drive on the brink of
failure.

Thanks for all the replies guys. But if the harddrive is the problem,
shouldn't I still be able to boot up from CD?

Rob R.

[Arny Krueger]

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Peter Larsen" wrote in message


Gerardus wrote:

Long ago I had a HD with lots of reading errors until I
put it vertical instead of horizontal...

The ST157N manual states that it should be low level
formatted in the position it is used in and that it
should be vertical or horisontal with a few degrees of
tolerance.

The ST157n was new in what year?

89 probably, 1989, not 1889. Gravity is however unchanged
it the relevant speed range since the fall of the apple.
Drive mechanisms otoh have a lot less mass.

The size is the tipoff - it was a 50 megabyte drive. No,
I didn't mix up my gigabytes and megabytes, it was a 50
megabyte nominal drive. Close to being one of the first
IDE drives ever!

48 megs, and a SCSI drive, suffix N says that.

I worked its whole life vertical and trying to use it
horizontal made it unreliable.

It's not supposed to happen with a modern drive.

Some harddisks can be low level formatted, some can't.

Not since the days of separate controllers, unless the
vendor has some cheat that allows you to do it.

Quantum SCSI drives always refused, just when
clickety-click and said done. Early december I low level
formatted a Hitachi 250 megs drive with the vendors drive
repair software.
You btw. mention that it is about a disk that clicks. IF
a disk has remapped a large area to spare blocks then it
will be noisy when the OS makes a full format or when
that zone is addressed because the heads has to jump to
the sector(s) it is remapped to.

In operation this is indistinguishable from normal
seeking.

Absolutely not. It is extremely obvious during an OS full
format that normally goes click, click, click and
suddenly goes clicketyclick, clicketyclick for a short
moment and then goes back to go click, click, click.

A drive that clicks several times infrequently; and
randomly or at start up is asking, no begging, to be
replaced. The clicks are usually recalibrates, which
means that the drive has basically forgotten where its
butt is, and started out looking for its butt from the
beginning. Not good.

Agreed, but that is a different issue. First make a
backup, then test with manufacturers drive software.

Do you have any experience with spinrite?

Yes. At the current price of drives, there's no reason not to replace drives
that misbehave.

[Arny Krueger]

"Rob Reedijk" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in
message news:5Mkij.7946$W73.3500@trnddc04
The ticking in the HD still makes me recommend cloning
to a new HD, but....

When is the last time you put a power supply in the
machine ??

Got one you can rob long enough to check it out on this
machine?

The ticking sound is almost certainly the hard drive on
the brink of failure.

Thanks for all the replies guys. But if the harddrive is
the problem, shouldn't I still be able to boot up from CD?

Depends on the condition of the CD drive. I see about half as many bad CDs
as bad HDs.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Rob Reedijk posted:

Rob Reedijk wrote:
Thanks to everyone for your advice. I will be installing the audio
drive into a USB enclosure and running it from the laptop from which
I also use Wavelab, so that will get me back to work.

This worked out great.

After further tests, I have determined that it is likely the
system harddrive (there are two harddrives). While it spins and
makes clicky noises at first, nothing shows up on the screen.
However when I boot from a win 98SE CD, I get a screen...

Oops---not really. I was just lucky that time. Over the last while
the computer has been more and more finicky about booting up.

This machine appears to have a problem booting up. I keep wondering
if it has to do with how they start up.

Normally, to start it up, I push the little start button, which
appears
to be a normally closed momentary switch.

There doesn't appear to be very much voltage across this switch (even
when it is open---it's in the millivolts)

So when I try to turn on the computer I basically plug in the power.
The drive spins up, it accesses the CD drive but nothing comes up on
the screen. When the computer was working normally, if I did this, it
would spin up for a moment and then shut down. It would only boot up
when I hit the start button.

I can tell you:
Memory is fine. I tried booting it up removing each stick one at a
time.
CMOS battery is fine. I put in a replacement.
Monitor is fine. I tried another one.

I don't know if there is a problem with the video "card"---this one
doesn't have an actual separate card.

It's an IBM 300PL Pentium II/Win98SE

Thanks

Rob R.

If the machine boots, but you can't see anything that points the finger at
the video card (chip in your case). You can replace that with an
inexpensive video card that has Win98 drivers (I'd recommend a low-end
Matrox that you might be able to find on e-Bay). You'll probably have to
start Win98 in "Safe Mode" (hold the F8 key while booting) to change video
drivers, but after that you should be good to go.

Good luck,

Neil

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Rob Reedijk" wrote in message ...
Arny Krueger wrote:
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in
message news:5Mkij.7946$W73.3500@trnddc04
The ticking in the HD still makes me recommend cloning to
a new HD, but....

When is the last time you put a power supply in the
machine ??

Got one you can rob long enough to check it out on this
machine?

The ticking sound is almost certainly the hard drive on the brink of
failure.

Thanks for all the replies guys. But if the harddrive is the problem,
shouldn't I still be able to boot up from CD?


You said the machine shuts down....

Sounds like a bad power supply to me. (As well as a dying HD).

[Rob Reedijk]

"David Morgan \(MAMS\)" /odm wrote:

You said the machine shuts down....

What I sid was that normally when plugging in the power the computer
starts up for a moment (spinning up sounds) but then shuts down before
anything happens. It would only really boot up after the front start
switch was hit.

I keep suspecting that there is an issue with how the start up mechanism
works. The computer normally boots up when the momentary start switch
on the front is hit. What does that thing actually do? I don't believe
there is a physical relay in the system, is there? The switch when measured
is normally closed and when pushed goes open.

Sounds like a bad power supply to me. (As well as a dying HD).

The other big contender is the video "card"---it doesn't have one, it's
built into the motherboard---if I can get my hands on one, I will pop it
in and try it.

But I suspect this might not be it. As I stated earlier, this starting
up issue is something that was an occaisional problem which became worse and
worse and now I can never get it to boot up.

Thanks for everyone's help.

Rob R.

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Rob Reedijk" wrote in message ...

"David Morgan \(MAMS\)" /odm wrote:

You said the machine shuts down....

What I sid was that normally when plugging in the power the computer
starts up for a moment (spinning up sounds) but then shuts down before
anything happens. It would only really boot up after the front start
switch was hit.

I keep suspecting that there is an issue with how the start up mechanism
works. The computer normally boots up when the momentary start switch
on the front is hit. What does that thing actually do? I don't believe
there is a physical relay in the system, is there? The switch when measured
is normally closed and when pushed goes open.

Sounds like a bad power supply to me. (As well as a dying HD).

The other big contender is the video "card"---it doesn't have one, it's
built into the motherboard---if I can get my hands on one, I will pop it
in and try it.

But I suspect this might not be it. As I stated earlier, this starting
up issue is something that was an occaisional problem which became worse and
worse and now I can never get it to boot up.

Thanks for everyone's help.


$29 should get you a cheap 250 to 300 watt PS. It's good to have a spare
even if it turns out this isn't the issue... but I've serviced a few PCs that
had similar problems with shutting down before the boot, and they were
all remedied with a new PS. (Rarely, it can be defective RAM issues).
All of the voltages really need to be pretty much on the money. After you've
checked it out, you can spend a little more for a nice quiet supply and use
the cheapie as a backup. I'm curious now..... I have a lot of old 98SE
boxes that I like to keep running and if there's something to learn, I'm game.

Cheers,

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
Morgan Audio Media Service
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_____________________________
http://www.januarysound.com

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

By the way (and maybe you've already covered this).... will it boot to BIOS ?

[Arny Krueger]

"Rob Reedijk" wrote in
message

What I sid was that normally when plugging in the power
the computer
starts up for a moment (spinning up sounds) but then
shuts down before anything happens. It would only really
boot up after the front start switch was hit.

That is not unusual.

I keep suspecting that there is an issue with how the
start up mechanism works. The computer normally boots up
when the momentary start switch
on the front is hit. What does that thing actually do?

The front panel switch tells the motherboard to tell the power supply to
energize its high power outputs. Normally the power supply provides a small
amount of stand-by current to the system board.

I don't believe there is a physical relay in the system,
is there?

No, its all done with logic chips.

The switch when measured is normally closed
and when pushed goes open.

Right. It's the same kind of switch as the reset button, etc.


The other big contender is the video "card"---it doesn't
have one, it's built into the motherboard---if I can get
my hands on one, I will pop it
in and try it.

Why?

But I suspect this might not be it. As I stated earlier,
this starting
up issue is something that was an occaisional problem
which became worse and worse and now I can never get it
to boot up.

If pressing the boot button causes the system board to go through the usual
pre-boot process, then the likely cause of problems is the hard drive.

[David Morgan \(MAMS\)]

"Rob Reedijk" wrote in message ...
Arny Krueger wrote:
"David Morgan (MAMS)" /Odm wrote in
message news:5Mkij.7946$W73.3500@trnddc04
The ticking in the HD still makes me recommend cloning to
a new HD, but....

When is the last time you put a power supply in the
machine ??

Got one you can rob long enough to check it out on this
machine?

The ticking sound is almost certainly the hard drive on the brink of
failure.

Thanks for all the replies guys. But if the harddrive is the problem,
shouldn't I still be able to boot up from CD?


You have to boot into the BIOS and set the startup drive order with
the CDRom as the number one option.