[West]

I believe that this NG is at a crossroad. It's about to be totally destroyed
or it will come to a head and recover to flourish for years to come. The
whole world is falling apart from this sort of incivility, so its no great
wonder that this NG is also affected by this plague. We could cite many
reasons for our problems. We could name the especially aggressive
troublemakers. However, if they were to leave, more would most likely come
to take their place. The epidemic is formidable. The inciters most likely
know not what they do.
There may be a temporary (perhaps a few months) fix. First we need to pick a
person whom we trust that has the strength of character, is intelligent and
mostly is someone whom we feel has integrity. I have a couple of Rodents in
mind. I'll wait to see how this thread goes. If there is interest, I'll
follow up this post. If the response is only from the usual inflamers, I'll
know that empathy, which opens the door for the agitators won.

Fondly,
west

[Lord Valve]

West wrote:

I believe that this NG is at a crossroad. It's about to be totally destroyed
or it will come to a head and recover to flourish for years to come. The
whole world is falling apart from this sort of incivility, so its no great
wonder that this NG is also affected by this plague. We could cite many
reasons for our problems. We could name the especially aggressive
troublemakers. However, if they were to leave, more would most likely come
to take their place. The epidemic is formidable. The inciters most likely
know not what they do.
There may be a temporary (perhaps a few months) fix. First we need to pick a
person whom we trust that has the strength of character, is intelligent and
mostly is someone whom we feel has integrity. I have a couple of Rodents in
mind. I'll wait to see how this thread goes. If there is interest, I'll
follow up this post. If the response is only from the usual inflamers, I'll
know that empathy, which opens the door for the agitators won.

Fondly,
west

Dude -

Is your killfile busted? I mean, really - come *on*, man.
You got a twitchy mouse finger or something? A pathological
compulsion which forces you to read **** you don't want to
read? So - you're going to try to take RAT to moderated
status? You do realize, don't you, that "a person whom we
trust that has the strength of character, is intelligent and
mostly is someone whom we feel has integrity" will not -
and *can* not - be anything other than a clique leader
who awards persons the clique finds "distasteful" (for
whatever reason) the Royal Order of the Boot? Once
you **** with the egalitarian nature of a free discussion
forum, it *immediately* becomes UNfree.

So - **** dat. You wanna sit in the country club
and sip tea with your ****ing pinky in the air, you
make double damn sure not to give me the key -
because if there's anything I can't stand, it's ****ing
snobs. I'll become a transistor salesman before
I participate in anything like that.

No likee? NO ****ING CLICKEE! It really is
that simple.

Lord Valve
feh!

[West]

"Lord Valve" wrote in message
...


West wrote:

I believe that this NG is at a crossroad. It's about to be totally
destroyed
or it will come to a head and recover to flourish for years to come. The
whole world is falling apart from this sort of incivility, so its no
great
wonder that this NG is also affected by this plague. We could cite many
reasons for our problems. We could name the especially aggressive
troublemakers. However, if they were to leave, more would most likely
come
to take their place. The epidemic is formidable. The inciters most
likely
know not what they do.
There may be a temporary (perhaps a few months) fix. First we need to
pick a
person whom we trust that has the strength of character, is intelligent
and
mostly is someone whom we feel has integrity. I have a couple of Rodents
in
mind. I'll wait to see how this thread goes. If there is interest, I'll
follow up this post. If the response is only from the usual inflamers,
I'll
know that empathy, which opens the door for the agitators won.

Fondly,
west

Dude -

Is your killfile busted? I mean, really - come *on*, man.
You got a twitchy mouse finger or something? A pathological
compulsion which forces you to read **** you don't want to
read? So - you're going to try to take RAT to moderated
status? You do realize, don't you, that "a person whom we
trust that has the strength of character, is intelligent and
mostly is someone whom we feel has integrity" will not -
and *can* not - be anything other than a clique leader
who awards persons the clique finds "distasteful" (for
whatever reason) the Royal Order of the Boot? Once
you **** with the egalitarian nature of a free discussion
forum, it *immediately* becomes UNfree.

So - **** dat. You wanna sit in the country club
and sip tea with your ****ing pinky in the air, you
make double damn sure not to give me the key -
because if there's anything I can't stand, it's ****ing
snobs. I'll become a transistor salesman before
I participate in anything like that.

No likee? NO ****ING CLICKEE! It really is
that simple.

Lord Valve
feh!

Thanks for your honest feelings. I'll take note of it even though the last
thing I also don't want is a moderated group.

Cordially,
west

[Patrick Turner]

West wrote:

I believe that this NG is at a crossroad. It's about to be totally destroyed
or it will come to a head and recover to flourish for years to come.

Niether seems true to me.

R.a.t changes day to day. At the moment, 95% being posted is utter
bull****
and is of no benefit to tube craft, so I just don't read it.

Maybe next month its 59dB worse, or 33.235987 dB better. I don't really
care.



The
whole world is falling apart from this sort of incivility, so its no great
wonder that this NG is also affected by this plague.

The world has been falling apart for around 3 million years ever since
apes and monkeys gotr bright enough to insult each other
due to brain developments and vocal chord&tongue evolution.

Unfortunately 95% of what is said on groups is equivalent to dogs
barking at each
other either side of a fence.




We could cite many
reasons for our problems. We could name the especially aggressive
troublemakers. However, if they were to leave, more would most likely come
to take their place. The epidemic is formidable. The inciters most likely
know not what they do.
There may be a temporary (perhaps a few months) fix. First we need to pick a
person whom we trust that has the strength of character, is intelligent and
mostly is someone whom we feel has integrity. I have a couple of Rodents in
mind. I'll wait to see how this thread goes. If there is interest, I'll
follow up this post. If the response is only from the usual inflamers, I'll
know that empathy, which opens the door for the agitators won.

Just leave leave everyone alone West and all will be fine.

You have absolutely no right or power to change it from what it is.

Any duty of care is entirely wasted.

The nature of men's discussions online is a function of perfectly
free flows of consciousness, so what is typed is just how ppl feel or
think.
There are no inhibitions.

There is no politeness, and probably all the vexatious name calling
would go
on exactly the same face to face in the real world if everyone could be
in the same room.
If you have a listen to government debate for 5 minutes you'll see that
there is no way rabble can be controlled.

I've been here 7 years, and sometimes there is more of interest than at
present.

Sometime less of interest.

Whatever.

I'm busy.

The damn world has always been a noisy place.


Fondly,
west

Fondle your own, it won't fall off if you do.

Patrick Turner.

[Arny Krueger]

"Lord Valve" wrote in message


No likee? NO ****ING CLICKEE! It really is
that simple.

Anybody who can't grasp that, deserves no credibility at all.

[West]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


West wrote:

I believe that this NG is at a crossroad. It's about to be totally
destroyed
or it will come to a head and recover to flourish for years to come.

Niether seems true to me.

R.a.t changes day to day. At the moment, 95% being posted is utter
bull****
and is of no benefit to tube craft, so I just don't read it.

Maybe next month its 59dB worse, or 33.235987 dB better. I don't really
care.



The
whole world is falling apart from this sort of incivility, so its no
great
wonder that this NG is also affected by this plague.

The world has been falling apart for around 3 million years ever since
apes and monkeys gotr bright enough to insult each other
due to brain developments and vocal chord&tongue evolution.

Unfortunately 95% of what is said on groups is equivalent to dogs
barking at each
other either side of a fence.




We could cite many
reasons for our problems. We could name the especially aggressive
troublemakers. However, if they were to leave, more would most likely
come
to take their place. The epidemic is formidable. The inciters most
likely
know not what they do.
There may be a temporary (perhaps a few months) fix. First we need to
pick a
person whom we trust that has the strength of character, is intelligent
and
mostly is someone whom we feel has integrity. I have a couple of Rodents
in
mind. I'll wait to see how this thread goes. If there is interest, I'll
follow up this post. If the response is only from the usual inflamers,
I'll
know that empathy, which opens the door for the agitators won.

Just leave leave everyone alone West and all will be fine.

You have absolutely no right or power to change it from what it is.

Any duty of care is entirely wasted.

The nature of men's discussions online is a function of perfectly
free flows of consciousness, so what is typed is just how ppl feel or
think.
There are no inhibitions.

There is no politeness, and probably all the vexatious name calling
would go
on exactly the same face to face in the real world if everyone could be
in the same room.
If you have a listen to government debate for 5 minutes you'll see that
there is no way rabble can be controlled.

I've been here 7 years, and sometimes there is more of interest than at
present.

Sometime less of interest.

Whatever.

I'm busy.

The damn world has always been a noisy place.


Fondly,
west

Fondle your own, it won't fall off if you do.

Patrick Turner.

I can not believe that you don't care. When you were a prodigious poster
there seemed to be little room for all this noise. You also don't care that
many good and knowledgeable tubies left because of this? No, I disagree.
Free speech is one thing but this is not speech.

west

[Iain Churches[_2_]]

"West" wrote in message
news:wn03j.37573$Xg.2933@trnddc06...
I believe that this NG is at a crossroad. It's about to be totally
destroyed
or it will come to a head and recover to flourish for years to come.

Morning West.


I wrote my reply earlier, but kept it back to see what
the general trend of response would be. Heat and
kitchens (see below) come to mind:-)

In the ten or so years that I have been following RAT,
there have been continual sinusoidal peaks and troughs.
At each trough, the Prophets of Doom pronounce,
"RAT is finished" But, luckily this never seems to
be the case.

Take it or leave it, but RAT is what it is, and
what we make of it.


The
whole world is falling apart from this sort of incivility, so its no great
wonder that this NG is also affected by this plague. We could cite many
reasons for our problems.

This is an interesting phenomenon, and something that
has been discussed here and elsewhere frequently. I
have often wondered about the degree of malevolence.
I feel sure that if we were all sitting round a large
table in your or my office, the discussion would follow
the agenda, and be informative and cordial, and that
we would all get along famously. So why is Usenet so
different? The reply to this question is usually that
NGs are a "rough and tumble, not to be taken too
seriously" or "If you don't like the heat, stay
out of the kitchen"


For this very reason many good people decide
RAT is not worth the trouble, and disappear to
pastures new. There have been two instances in
recent weeks, Sander, and Chris Hornbeck. Both
were dedicated and well informed. Their absence
is a loss to the whole group. They did not leave
because they were involved directly in confrontation,
but because they were tired of the fractious behaviour
of some of the people here, who actually have no
interest in tube audio at all, but see it as their life's
work to disrupt discussion in the forum.


We could name the especially aggressive
troublemakers. However, if they were to leave, more would most likely come
to take their place. The epidemic is formidable. The inciters most likely
know not what they do.

For some reason, RAT seems to act as an (electro:-) magnet for
tube amp haters. There are several among the current personnel.
They too, come and go, but sadly seem a lot more persistent that
the real tube hobbyists. Usually, they explain their presence here
as some sort of a crusade, in which they feel they must correct the
errors of others. Pinkerton was a prime example of this. His skill
was such that he could denounce the performance of a tube amp
just by looking at the schematic of a different amp by the same
maker! Greatly missed:-)

Fortunately, Stewart's stay here was not a long one, but still
several good tube amp people decided enough was enough,
and left RAT to join closed groups when invited to do so.
They post actively on those groups in a friendly and well-informed
environment. Others keep touch by e-mail so all is not lost,
exept their presence on RAT.


We see the symptoms of the troubles on RAT on a daily basis,
post after post on thread after thread of animosity. The cure is
a lot more complex. LV mentions the kill-file. One contributor,
who is definately socially challenged and the majority of whose
posts are cut and paste invective on a daily basis, every now and
again writes something of great interest which I definitely would
not wish to have missed (and answers a question that may have
been in the back the mind for years)

I know from e-mail correspondence, and from my dealings
with students, that tube audio interests a great many. It is
no co-incidence however that there are no beginners on RAT,
which would, one have thought, be the ideal place to ask a
question and get some encouragement or inspiration. The
reason for their absence is self-evident:-)

I think the answer to the problem is two-fold. First of all,
we all need to pull ourselves together, and start acting like
sensible adults. Second, the SNR ratio on RAT is in direct
ratio to the number of relevant and on-topic posts. So more
good threads on tube amp topics are needed. The more
flames, the further back most people withdraw, until some
of them decide not to bother any more. There are plenty of
good alternatives

Cordially,
Iain

[Patrick Turner]

West wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


West wrote:

I believe that this NG is at a crossroad. It's about to be totally
destroyed
or it will come to a head and recover to flourish for years to come.

Niether seems true to me.

R.a.t changes day to day. At the moment, 95% being posted is utter
bull****
and is of no benefit to tube craft, so I just don't read it.

Maybe next month its 59dB worse, or 33.235987 dB better. I don't really
care.



The
whole world is falling apart from this sort of incivility, so its no
great
wonder that this NG is also affected by this plague.

The world has been falling apart for around 3 million years ever since
apes and monkeys gotr bright enough to insult each other
due to brain developments and vocal chord&tongue evolution.

Unfortunately 95% of what is said on groups is equivalent to dogs
barking at each
other either side of a fence.




We could cite many
reasons for our problems. We could name the especially aggressive
troublemakers. However, if they were to leave, more would most likely
come
to take their place. The epidemic is formidable. The inciters most
likely
know not what they do.
There may be a temporary (perhaps a few months) fix. First we need to
pick a
person whom we trust that has the strength of character, is intelligent
and
mostly is someone whom we feel has integrity. I have a couple of Rodents
in
mind. I'll wait to see how this thread goes. If there is interest, I'll
follow up this post. If the response is only from the usual inflamers,
I'll
know that empathy, which opens the door for the agitators won.

Just leave leave everyone alone West and all will be fine.

You have absolutely no right or power to change it from what it is.

Any duty of care is entirely wasted.

The nature of men's discussions online is a function of perfectly
free flows of consciousness, so what is typed is just how ppl feel or
think.
There are no inhibitions.

There is no politeness, and probably all the vexatious name calling
would go
on exactly the same face to face in the real world if everyone could be
in the same room.
If you have a listen to government debate for 5 minutes you'll see that
there is no way rabble can be controlled.

I've been here 7 years, and sometimes there is more of interest than at
present.

Sometime less of interest.

Whatever.

I'm busy.

The damn world has always been a noisy place.


Fondly,
west

Fondle your own, it won't fall off if you do.

Patrick Turner.

I can not believe that you don't care. When you were a prodigious poster
there seemed to be little room for all this noise. You also don't care that
many good and knowledgeable tubies left because of this? No, I disagree.
Free speech is one thing but this is not speech.

What difference would it make if I said I cared?

How can I care, in deed?

The answers are not worth knowing. "Care" is an antiquated emotional
notion, and
hardly any ******* cares about any ****ing thing at any time, except to
be seen to be right,
perhaps to persuade themselves that they ain't wrong.

90% of the posts are centered around personal dismemberment of other
posters,
for 1,001 reasons not slightly related to good or bad tube craft.

The world turns on its axis and proceeds around the sun and there isn't
the slightest thing
I can do the change anything.

What I might have said during 7 years here amounts to a decent sized
book,
and ppl are welcome to download and collate whatever it was I did say.

I have to earn a living, am not retired, and don't have the time for a
book.


I don't need to repeat myself, especially as there seems to be very few
eager new ppl
in the group who keep a soldering iron hot and a mind able to
learn fresh ideas, or re-learn the older ideas so necessary to grasp
fully
if one is ever to get good sound from glassware.

I am so darn busy making amps and gear for ppl, it is with relief I do
not have to post up to 20 posts a day
on a wide range of subjects in replies to others.

Its all been done.

I have actually cared though and it is in the form of what I have
written to the group.

Nothing is permanent though.


Patrick Turner.



west

[bassett[_2_]]

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


West wrote:

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


West wrote:

I believe that this NG is at a crossroad. It's about to be totally
destroyed
or it will come to a head and recover to flourish for years to come.

Niether seems true to me.

R.a.t changes day to day. At the moment, 95% being posted is utter
bull****
and is of no benefit to tube craft, so I just don't read it.

Maybe next month its 59dB worse, or 33.235987 dB better. I don't really
care.



The
whole world is falling apart from this sort of incivility, so its no
great
wonder that this NG is also affected by this plague.

The world has been falling apart for around 3 million years ever since
apes and monkeys gotr bright enough to insult each other
due to brain developments and vocal chord&tongue evolution.

Unfortunately 95% of what is said on groups is equivalent to dogs
barking at each
other either side of a fence.




We could cite many
reasons for our problems. We could name the especially aggressive
troublemakers. However, if they were to leave, more would most likely
come
to take their place. The epidemic is formidable. The inciters most
likely
know not what they do.
There may be a temporary (perhaps a few months) fix. First we need to
pick a
person whom we trust that has the strength of character, is
intelligent
and
mostly is someone whom we feel has integrity. I have a couple of
Rodents
in
mind. I'll wait to see how this thread goes. If there is interest,
I'll
follow up this post. If the response is only from the usual
inflamers,
I'll
know that empathy, which opens the door for the agitators won.

Just leave leave everyone alone West and all will be fine.

You have absolutely no right or power to change it from what it is.

Any duty of care is entirely wasted.

The nature of men's discussions online is a function of perfectly
free flows of consciousness, so what is typed is just how ppl feel or
think.
There are no inhibitions.

There is no politeness, and probably all the vexatious name calling
would go
on exactly the same face to face in the real world if everyone could be
in the same room.
If you have a listen to government debate for 5 minutes you'll see that
there is no way rabble can be controlled.

I've been here 7 years, and sometimes there is more of interest than at
present.

Sometime less of interest.

Whatever.

I'm busy.

The damn world has always been a noisy place.


Fondly,
west

Fondle your own, it won't fall off if you do.

Patrick Turner.

I can not believe that you don't care. When you were a prodigious poster
there seemed to be little room for all this noise. You also don't care
that
many good and knowledgeable tubies left because of this? No, I disagree.
Free speech is one thing but this is not speech.

What difference would it make if I said I cared?

How can I care, in deed?

The answers are not worth knowing. "Care" is an antiquated emotional
notion, and
hardly any ******* cares about any ****ing thing at any time, except to
be seen to be right,
perhaps to persuade themselves that they ain't wrong.

90% of the posts are centered around personal dismemberment of other
posters,
for 1,001 reasons not slightly related to good or bad tube craft.

The world turns on its axis and proceeds around the sun and there isn't
the slightest thing
I can do the change anything.

What I might have said during 7 years here amounts to a decent sized
book,
and ppl are welcome to download and collate whatever it was I did say.

I have to earn a living, am not retired, and don't have the time for a
book.


I don't need to repeat myself, especially as there seems to be very few
eager new ppl
in the group who keep a soldering iron hot and a mind able to
learn fresh ideas, or re-learn the older ideas so necessary to grasp
fully
if one is ever to get good sound from glassware.

I am so darn busy making amps and gear for ppl, it is with relief I do
not have to post up to 20 posts a day
on a wide range of subjects in replies to others.

Its all been done.

I have actually cared though and it is in the form of what I have
written to the group.

Nothing is permanent though.


Patrick Turner.

never mind "possum" you just suck your orange

[Andy Evans]

R.A.T is for rats and has been for years. Nothing changes.

[Andy Evans]

What difference would it make if I said I cared?
Patrick Turner.

We know you care and that you always have cared. Why not post on Audio
Asylum Tubes DIY?

- you have always had a lot of good things to say and you've really
helped a lot of people. We haven't forgotten!