anyone have any ideas as to the best way to generate a live click,
with tempo map?

i'm doing a tempo map in protools that's pretty intricate. Would like
to avoid bringing a PC to gigs; is there a rackmountable sequencer
that I can use to generate a click with tempo map changes? Or maybe I
should get a rackmounted CD player and just record a snare sample out
of protools and use that track from a CD?

Why not just use a drum machine? It's cheap and it's easy, much like my
first wife..

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

"Jonathan Buck" wrote in message
om...
anyone have any ideas as to the best way to generate a live click,
with tempo map?

i'm doing a tempo map in protools that's pretty intricate. Would like
to avoid bringing a PC to gigs; is there a rackmountable sequencer
that I can use to generate a click with tempo map changes? Or maybe I
should get a rackmounted CD player and just record a snare sample out
of protools and use that track from a CD?

anyone have any ideas as to the best way to generate a live click,
with tempo map?

i'm doing a tempo map in protools that's pretty intricate. Would like
to avoid bringing a PC to gigs; is there a rackmountable sequencer
that I can use to generate a click with tempo map changes? Or maybe I
should get a rackmounted CD player and just record a snare sample out
of protools and use that track from a CD?


A wood block sound rather than a snare, perhaps? With something
different for beat 1 of each bar. Most sequencers have a function to
do this. Is Pro Tools up to speed on midi now? Never used to be much
good in that area, but I hear things have improved!
A simple programmed drum track can be much easier to follow than a
click.

A click is usually to keep the band in sync with some prerecorded
tracks. This click stands alone? What's it for? If all you need is
to play this click track, get it to the gig by the simplest means
possible. Got a Walkman?

(Jonathan Buck) wrote
Date: 7/11/03 10:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

anyone have any ideas as to the best way to generate a live click,
with tempo map?

Pre setting click's and/or tempo's for live show's have been done with mini
disk units for many years now. Spend some time getting to know your set and
record it (what ever sound you want for the click) to a mini disk and your off
and running. Many mini disk unit's have digital and sync hook-ups for
connecting with most any other unit you want to use as a master.
Using a cheap (some are free) computer audio recording program will work as a
sequencer (for setting up all your songs), there are lots of rack units out
there to.

In article writes:

anyone have any ideas as to the best way to generate a live click,
with tempo map?

With a sequencer, using a sound, or sounds, that you can easily
distinguish from the music you're playing to the track and that isn't
obnoxious.

Would like
to avoid bringing a PC to gigs; is there a rackmountable sequencer
that I can use to generate a click with tempo map changes? Or maybe I
should get a rackmounted CD player and just record a snare sample out
of protools and use that track from a CD?

Would you be using the sequencer live for anything else but generating
a click? If not, then I'd just record your click track on a CD and
bring that to the gig. When it comes to live performance, there's
enough things that can go wrong that you don't need to add one more.

Now if you want to adjust the tempo in real time (at the gig), that's
a different story. You can't do that with a CD, at least not with a
simple player. That's the time to consider taking a laptop PC, but
you'll have one more thing to divert your attention from actually
playing (unless you're the sound tech or music director, not a
player).






--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

(Raymond) wrote in message ...
(Jonathan Buck) wrote
Date: 7/11/03 10:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id:

anyone have any ideas as to the best way to generate a live click,
with tempo map?

Pre setting click's and/or tempo's for live show's have been done with mini
disk units for many years now. Spend some time getting to know your set and
record it (what ever sound you want for the click) to a mini disk and your off
and running. Many mini disk unit's have digital and sync hook-ups for
connecting with most any other unit you want to use as a master.
Using a cheap (some are free) computer audio recording program will work as a
sequencer (for setting up all your songs), there are lots of rack units out
there to.

Pre-recorded CD's work well. As long as you're doing the click
sequencing in PT, you could also overdub a verbal cue
(0ne....two....one..two..three..four.., for example) at the top so the
drummer can stick-click 4 at the top for the rest of the band. Most
drummers I have worked with at the pro level consider a quarter-note
click "evil" and prefer eighth-note clicks, with a differentiating
loud click on the "1", slightly less loud clicks on the "2's 3's and
4's" and slightly less loud clicks on the "&'s". Wood blocks are a
good click; some prefer a hi-hat on all eighth notes with wood blocks
on the quarter notes only.

Pre-recorded CD's work well. As long as you're doing the click
sequencing in PT, you could also overdub a verbal cue
(0ne....two....one..two..three..four.., for example) at the top so the
drummer can stick-click 4 at the top for the rest of the band. Most
drummers I have worked with at the pro level consider a quarter-note
click "evil" and prefer eighth-note clicks, with a differentiating
loud click on the "1", slightly less loud clicks on the "2's 3's and
4's" and slightly less loud clicks on the "&'s". Wood blocks are a
good click; some prefer a hi-hat on all eighth notes with wood blocks
on the quarter notes only.


I'm still wondering what this is for?
If it's an intricate tempo map, the band will need a lot of practice
with it. Why not just learn the song?

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 19:20:27 +0100, Laurence Payne
wrote:


Pre-recorded CD's work well. As long as you're doing the click
sequencing in PT, you could also overdub a verbal cue
(0ne....two....one..two..three..four.., for example) at the top so the
drummer can stick-click 4 at the top for the rest of the band. Most
drummers I have worked with at the pro level consider a quarter-note
click "evil" and prefer eighth-note clicks, with a differentiating
loud click on the "1", slightly less loud clicks on the "2's 3's and
4's" and slightly less loud clicks on the "&'s". Wood blocks are a
good click; some prefer a hi-hat on all eighth notes with wood blocks
on the quarter notes only.


I'm still wondering what this is for?
If it's an intricate tempo map, the band will need a lot of practice
with it. Why not just learn the song?

It depends on the type of music being played. The band I recorded 5
cds with was melodic speed metal.We had as many as 10 or more tempo
changes in some songs.

We also stacked rythym guitar tracks to get a thicker sound. We tried
normal micing techniques only doing 2 tracks, but we found out if we
tracked with different amps set to various levels of gain and
distortion, then combined these tracks, we would get a much thicker
guitar sound.Usually we had 6-8 rythym guitar tracks stacked at
various gain and distortion settings.

This multiple stacking of guitar tracks and numerous tempo changes
meant we needed the drummer to play very tight.Sloppy tempo would make
it impossible for us to stack tracks accurately

A click track or tempo map also eliminates anybody from playing too
fast or too slow live. A drummer that is excited from the crowd tends
to play faster. A hungover drummer tends to drag. The tempo map
assurred we all played in time no matter what outside influences were
present.

We would write our songs with no click or tempo tracks, then when we
thought the song sounded right, we would make a tempo map for each
song.

A month or so prior to entering the studio, our drummer would start
using these tempo maps during rehearsal.They were burned to cd
and panned to one side, since the drummer liked to keep one ear open
to hear the room.

He would hit play on a cd player before each song, then he would have
an 8 count, of which he cued the band on click 5-8.He used various
sounds to cue him to changes or starting points.We also would place
any samples that needed to be triggered live into the other side of
his headphones, eliminating the need to send them to his monitor mix,
and also eliminating the need to manually trigger the sounds.
The samples were also sent to front of house, eliminating the need to
have an extra person on tour for a small amount of sampling.

Randall

In article writes:

Why not just use a drum machine? It's cheap and it's easy, much like my
first wife..

Cheap and easy drum machines don't usually have the ability to change
tempo mid-stream (like, or unlike live drummers, when you want or
don't want them to do so).


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

In article writes:

It depends on the type of music being played. The band I recorded 5
cds with was melodic speed metal.We had as many as 10 or more tempo
changes in some songs.

Lots of bands have 10 or more tempo changes in a song. But most would
prefer that they didn't.

This multiple stacking of guitar tracks and numerous tempo changes
meant we needed the drummer to play very tight.Sloppy tempo would make
it impossible for us to stack tracks accurately

So, why not play the song the way you want to play it, and then stack
the guitar tracks. If the guitarist can't follow himself without a
click, get a better guitarist, or fix the song. If you can't play to
it, you can't dance to it. And if you can't dance to it, it won't sell
very well.

A click track or tempo map also eliminates anybody from playing too
fast or too slow live. A drummer that is excited from the crowd tends
to play faster.

And there's something wrong with this? Of course if the drummer can't
keep this under control, you need a new drummer. And if he's paying
attention to a click track and not the audience, he probably ins't
paying attention to the rest of the band either. Sounds to me like you
need a new drummer. Sorry if you're the drummer in this band.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Sure they do - I was doing that sort of thing more than 15 years ago. My
main session drummer writes out click patterns whenever we need to cut a
track that changes tempo during the track. Otherwise he just uses a 2 bar
pattern for a click

--
Dave Martin
Java Jive Studio
Nashville, TN
www.javajivestudio.com

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1058020397k@trad...

In article
writes:

Why not just use a drum machine? It's cheap and it's easy, much like my
first wife..

Cheap and easy drum machines don't usually have the ability to change
tempo mid-stream (like, or unlike live drummers, when you want or
don't want them to do so).


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

On 13 Jul 2003 11:35:26 -0400, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:


In article writes:

It depends on the type of music being played. The band I recorded 5
cds with was melodic speed metal.We had as many as 10 or more tempo
changes in some songs.

Lots of bands have 10 or more tempo changes in a song. But most would
prefer that they didn't.

A blues or pop band that does not have any tempo changes would not
need such a routine, but we did for tracking and live accuracy.We
wrote and played our songs the way we felt them, then made tempo maps
to keep them playing that way without outside influences such as
booze, topless chicks or adrenalin messing up the works.


This multiple stacking of guitar tracks and numerous tempo changes
meant we needed the drummer to play very tight.Sloppy tempo would make
it impossible for us to stack tracks accurately

So, why not play the song the way you want to play it, and then stack
the guitar tracks. If the guitarist can't follow himself without a
click, get a better guitarist, or fix the song. If you can't play to
it, you can't dance to it. And if you can't dance to it, it won't sell
very well.

Because we had a lot of triplet picked guitar parts, stacked sometimes
8 deep.And picking the gallup triplet guitar parts is next to
impossible to stack unless the drummer is close to dead on. Besides,
our drummers would forget the click after a while, and just hear it
subconciously. It never got in the way of feeling to a drummer
experienced at playing with a click track that we ever used.

Some of the songs were also at the limit of our endurance when it came
to picking attack, so a 4 beat per minute increase in tempo could
render it unplayable.

If you mean slam dancing, we had plenty of that going on.


A click track or tempo map also eliminates anybody from playing too
fast or too slow live. A drummer that is excited from the crowd tends
to play faster.

And there's something wrong with this? Of course if the drummer can't
keep this under control, you need a new drummer. And if he's paying
attention to a click track and not the audience, he probably ins't
paying attention to the rest of the band either. Sounds to me like you
need a new drummer. Sorry if you're the drummer in this band.

I am not the drummer, I am literate. lol

See above.In our case faster could mean we could not keep up since it
was already friggin fast to begin with.

And playing it slower meant our drummer was probably hungover and got
a kick in his ass after the show

Playing fast songs is 1 thing, playing fast technical songs is
another, playing fast technical songs with good tempo is also entirely
different.

Our drummers worked this way, and never took more than 3-4 lockout
days recording 50 minutes of physically, technically demanding
content.They achieved this by using the system we had in place.

Another speed metal band in the same studio us with when we recorded
our 4th cd spent 5 weeks just fixing drum tracks so the guitarist
could track to him. We were done with the whole cd in 3 weeks,
including mixing.So I would say our technique works for the type of
music we played.To each his own. Dont knock it because it is not your
cup of tea.

Peace, Mike
Randall

In article writes:

We
wrote and played our songs the way we felt them, then made tempo maps
to keep them playing that way without outside influences such as
booze, topless chicks or adrenalin messing up the works.

Oh. Well, I was just going to suggest that if you just play them again
and you should have the same tempo changes. But if you're going to be
playing under the influence od booze, topless chicks or adrenalin,
chances are the tempo isn't going to be the worst part of the
performance.

Because we had a lot of triplet picked guitar parts, stacked sometimes
8 deep.And picking the gallup triplet guitar parts is next to
impossible to stack unless the drummer is close to dead on.

What does the drummer have to do with what the guitarist plays? Or are
you saying that the guitarist can follow the drummer, but can't follow
his own playing? And how are you going to stack up guitar parts live
anyway? Got a Les Paulverizer?

Sorry, but I guess I just don't sympathize with whatever you think
your problem is. Hush now, don't explain.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Oh. Well, I was just going to suggest that if you just play them again
and you should have the same tempo changes. But if you're going to be
playing under the influence od booze, topless chicks or adrenalin,
chances are the tempo isn't going to be the worst part of the
performance.

Funny thing is, we were consistently voted in the top 5 live acts
every year we toured by most of the major metal magazines throughout
Europe.I do not think there was a worst part of a performance issue,we
made sure of this by using the routine we came up with.People in the
know seemed to agree.

Because we had a lot of triplet picked guitar parts, stacked sometimes
8 deep.And picking the gallup triplet guitar parts is next to
impossible to stack unless the drummer is close to dead on.

What does the drummer have to do with what the guitarist plays? Or are
you saying that the guitarist can follow the drummer, but can't follow
his own playing? And how are you going to stack up guitar parts live
anyway? Got a Les Paulverizer?

If you track live, you can go by the feel of a drummer.If you stack
rythyms, you need a non fluctuating source to keep time.We could
follow a click or our own playing just fine, the problem arose when a
sloppy drummer could not keep time as well as we could.

Sorry, but I guess I just don't sympathize with whatever you think
your problem is. Hush now, don't explain.

We didnt have a problem ,we had it all figured out. I only post this
response for the original posters benefit, when he asked what good are
tempo maps and click tracks.For most styles of music they are not
necessary, for our style they were vital to help keep the band tight
in any situation.

And besides, danceable music you profess to be the most sellable, is
all about tempo maps. Using a sequencer to trigger every instrument,
then tracking vocals must be really difficult. Try doing it with
technical music, played live by musicians, and you will see the
benefit firsthand of tempo maps.

Randall

In article writes:

And besides, danceable music you profess to be the most sellable, is
all about tempo maps.

Huh? I thought that danceable music was all about keeping a steady
tempo. How're you going to dance (unless you're talking about a
coreographed production) if you don't know where the tempo is going? I
thought you just set the click at 120 BPM and glued it in place. And
if you do that, you don't need a tempo map, or you need one with only
one entry.

But we live in different worlds. I can't imagine dancing to metal
music, and I can't imagine dancing to music with a tempo that varies
in places that aren't natural, and requires mapping and sequencing.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Huh? I thought that danceable music was all about keeping a steady
tempo.

It is.Set 1 tempo,write 3 parts, then you have a pop song.
If you know dance music uses a click track or sequencer click to keep
everything flowing in perfect tempo,and that the parts are usually
very simple for a musician to play, why is it hard to believe a speed
metal band with 20 parts in a song that may change tempos 8 times
during the course of the song, may benefit from a click track also.
If we are suppossed to play guitar and stack tracks with only our ear
playing technically oriented material, then these pop/dance acts
should surely be able to play their simple music with no clicks.

Skill or proficieny at ones instrument is not the only criteria for
us, being tight as a band is just as important.




But we live in different worlds. I can't imagine dancing to metal
music, and I can't imagine dancing to music with a tempo that varies
in places that aren't natural, and requires mapping and sequencing.

Our tempos vary where it is natural for our music, and nobody dances
to it in the common dancing styles.

I am sure it would be much easier for us to write every song with 1
tempo, but since our fans are not there to waltz, we would probably
bore them to death.

Randall

In article writes:

If you know dance music uses a click track or sequencer click to keep
everything flowing in perfect tempo,and that the parts are usually
very simple for a musician to play, why is it hard to believe a speed
metal band with 20 parts in a song that may change tempos 8 times
during the course of the song, may benefit from a click track also.

Sorry, but you have me confused with someone who knows:
(a) what speed metal is
(b) what you mean by "part"
(c) why you called this dance music if the tempo changes 8 times

Orchestral music has many parts, "stacks" instruments together, and
changes tempo a lot. Orchestras don't usually play to click tracks.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

Sorry, but you have me confused with someone who knows:

(a) what speed metal is

It is basically speedy metal music.Fast tempo, triplet picking, smash
in the face music.We had melodic vocals and leads, but speedy and
heavy rythyms.

(b) what you mean by "part"

Chorus, verse, bridge, backwards messages, etc.

(c) why you called this dance music if the tempo changes 8 times

I never said I played dance music, I said fans tend to slam dance at
our shows.Which is like a mosh pit, and an occasional elbow in the eye
here and there.Good healthy fun for kids that need an outlet for their
anger.

Orchestral music has many parts, "stacks" instruments together, and
changes tempo a lot. Orchestras don't usually play to click tracks.


The conductor is their click track.And if they overdubbed parts later,
they would probably be better off and spend less money overdubbing if
the music was initially recorded with proper non fluctuating tempos.
Just in case the conductor got stung by a bee, smelled a nasty
violinists fart, or had an arm spasm that resulted in fluctuating the
tempo he sets.

If we had a Metallica like budget, we would probably play without
click tracks, and cut up 30 reels of tape like they do. But our budget
necessitates we use time wisely, and using tempo maps eliminates a lot
of hassles for us in the long run.

And unlike the Britneys of the music world, we try to recreate our
songs faithfully on stage, without lip syncing to a cd.

Randall