[Jenn]

The best hot dog joint in L.A. and politicians alike are abuzz? Great!



http://www.calendarlive.com/music/cl...nov10,0,554657
6.story?coll=cl-classical

CRITIC'S NOTEBOOK

It's 'Dudamelmania' as classical music's future shifts to a new class


By Mark Swed, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

A week has passed since Gustavo Dudamel and his Simón Bolívar Youth
Orchestra set Walt Disney Concert Hall afire. The sight and sound of
practically 200 Venezuelan musicians in their teens and early 20s
tearing through Beethoven, Bernstein, Mahler and Latin American music
with an enthusiastic fervor the likes of which none of us had ever
witnessed from a symphony orchestra will not soon be forgotten.

The town is abuzz. Politicians are talking about music education -- for
real. I'm getting e-mails headed "Dudamelmania" and "Dudamellitis."
Pink's, the hot dog palace, has named a dog after the 26-year-old
conductor who will become music director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic
the season after next.

Meanwhile, the young Venezuelans -- who are the product of a remarkable
education program, El Sistema, that puts music in the lives of
disadvantaged youths who might otherwise be gang members or worse -- are
busy wooing and wowing America. Raves have poured in after concerts in
San Francisco and Boston. They will make their New York debut at
Carnegie Hall on Sunday afternoon and Monday evening.

Fortunately, this good news from Latin America comes just as the
sensation-hungry media are starting to forgo their endless stories about
how classical music is dead.

Venezuela already has more schoolchildren in orchestras than on soccer
teams, and the country's president, Hugo Chávez, has vowed to increase
El Sistema's enrollment from 250,000 to a million. In China, all parents
who can afford to give their children music lessons do so; the country
has millions upon millions of piano students who will someday be
classical music consumers.

Closer to home, regularly full houses at Disney Hall are an encouraging
sign. Classical record sales, unlike those in most other genres, are
experiencing a significant uptick. Alex Ross' "The Rest Is Noise," an
enthusiastic survey of 20th century music by the New Yorker's music
critic, made The Times' bestseller list last Sunday.

In a brilliant 12,000-word polemic in the New Republic, Richard Taruskin
brings out the critical howitzers to persuade academics and various
boneheaded classical music elitists to lighten up.

Like it or not, he advises, classical music is changing, which means it
is alive.

The Venezuelans are a big part of that change, but the revolutionary
spirit they bring with them, a visceral approach to the classics that is
theirs alone, is not without a threat to the status quo. They have done
it on their own. They have not gone to Juilliard, and Juilliard has not
sent masses of instructors to them. They have not taken master classes
with famous musicians. Their success means that the entire class
structure of classical music is now in danger of falling apart.

And that threat may explain why the New York music establishment does
not appear amenable to the full Dudamel/Bolívar treatment. Is Carnegie
afraid the hottest thing on the music scene will be too scorching hot
for its audiences or simply that it won't sell?

For whatever reason, neither the Symphonic Dances from "West Side Story"
nor Mahler's Fifth is being offered to Manhattan concertgoers. Instead,
on Sunday with the Venezuelans, Emanuel Ax will play Chopin's Second
Piano Concerto (which is basically a solo piece with some minor
orchestral accompaniment). And Simon Rattle, not Dudamel, will conduct
the orchestra in Shostakovich's 10th Symphony.

There's more. At the end of November, Dudamel will make his New York
Philharmonic debut, and the orchestra is promoting the program as "Gil
Shaham plays Dvorák." You have to scroll down the orchestra's website to
find Dudamel's name in teeny-tiny type. Maybe the orchestra fears that
this young conductor will detract from what it hopes will be the
excitement of its own young new music director, Alan Gilbert, who will
also begin in 2009.

Classical music has always initially rejected the Other. In the Middle
Ages, the church discriminated against secular musicians. Wagner railed
against the Jews. Mahler, who was forced to convert to Roman Catholicism
to have a career in Vienna, created a furor by being the first composer
to include elements of street music in his symphonies. And let's not
forget the racism in the West that once greeted Japanese musicians, who
were said to play without soul.

The Venezuelans confuse us. They bring something new. But we cannot
forget that while these young students are amazing audiences here, their
fellow university students back home are demonstrating against Chávez's
latest curbs on the Venezuelan constitution.

Is the Bolívar band being used as a propaganda tool by Chávez? And if
so, what are we to make of Chávez cozying up to Iran's president,
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who has banned Western classical music from Iranian
radio and TV? If Chávez has some sway in loosening things up in Iran,
might that not lead to some good, however distasteful the players?

There are no ready answers to these questions, but they are certainly
worth exploring -- and on the highest levels. The breaking down of the
class structure of classical music will be messy. But art is messy
anyway. And look at the alternative.

A motto of José Antonio Abreu, who founded El Sistema 30 years ago, has
always been that if you put a violin in a child's hand, he won't pick up
a gun. Nov. 3, at a reception after Dudamel and his orchestra rocked
Disney, civic leaders spoke about how important this program is for
society and how much L.A. needs something like it.

Only a week before, Darius Ever Truly, a talented young actor who was
starring in a play at the Odyssey Theatre, was stabbed to death after
leaving a party -- possibly by a gang member.

[Clyde Slick]

On 11 Noi, 16:24, Jenn wrote:



A motto of José Antonio Abreu, who founded El Sistema 30 years ago, has
always been that if you put a violin in a child's hand, he won't pick up
a gun.

yeah, but wasn't a violin case a classic prop in old
gangster films?
what did those bad boys do with the
violin that came with the case?

anyway, i am all for music education.
besides teaching music, it teaches
subjugation of the self to a group,
to reach a common goaL,
HEY!!! maybe that's why Hugo is for it.
next, he will be promoting American football.

[Jenn]

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

et,
Jenn wrote:

The best hot dog joint in L.A. and politicians alike are abuzz? Great!



http://www.calendarlive.com/music/cl...nov10,0,554657
6.story?coll=cl-classical

CRITIC'S NOTEBOOK

It's 'Dudamelmania' as classical music's future shifts to a new class


By Mark Swed, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

A week has passed since Gustavo Dudamel and his Simón Bolívar Youth
Orchestra set Walt Disney Concert Hall afire...

California rediscovers music ed only thirty years after crippling its
own system!

Indeed; at least we HOPE it truly rediscovers it.


I dunno about this 'keeper of the flame' and discrimination stuff. When
Dudamel starts selling tickets (and attracting patrons) with his name,
his name will be prominently displayed.

Agreed. It looks like it's about to happen. The guy is getting really
"hot". I can't wait to hear him.

[Jenn]

In article . com,
ScottW wrote:

On Nov 12, 8:08 am, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:





In article

et,
Jenn wrote:

The best hot dog joint in L.A. and politicians alike are abuzz? Great!

http://www.calendarlive.com/music/cl...ar10nov10,0,55...
6.story?coll=cl-classical

CRITIC'S NOTEBOOK

It's 'Dudamelmania' as classical music's future shifts to a new class

By Mark Swed, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

A week has passed since Gustavo Dudamel and his Simón Bolívar Youth
Orchestra set Walt Disney Concert Hall afire...

California rediscovers music ed only thirty years after crippling its
own system!

Indeed; at least we HOPE it truly rediscovers it.



I dunno about this 'keeper of the flame' and discrimination stuff. When
Dudamel starts selling tickets (and attracting patrons) with his name,
his name will be prominently displayed.

Agreed. It looks like it's about to happen. The guy is getting really
"hot". I can't wait to hear him.

http://www.californiaprogressreport...._care_wat.html

10 billion shortfall and budget cuts looming. Good luck with any
publicly funded music education....ain't happenning.

ScottW

Well, it already happens in most places in CA; the question is the
extent, the quality, what grade it starts, etc.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Nov 12, 2:07 pm, ScottW wrote:
On Nov 12, 10:11 am, MiNe 109 wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Well, it already happens in most places in CA; the question is the
extent, the quality, what grade it starts, etc.

Read about it he

http://music-for-all.org/sos.html

Of course, y'all could just raise taxes! :-)

Since most of education is funded by property tax
that would be the nail in the coffin of Ca housing
market.

There was a nail in the coffin of California's housing market 10-15
years ago, too.

Markets ebb and flow. The future always just is. Short-term thinking
always creates long-term problems.

Or universal health care will help that shortfall. Leave it to Scott to
bring up health care costs in discussing music education.

I just used that article to point out the rising budget deficit
forecast for '08. As the economy declines further
and housing continues to stall, expect those projections
to rise painfully highlighting the fact that Arnold never fixed
the budget deficit but just borrowed his way to short term
balance.

That sounds very republican of him.

Jenn's comment, "Well, it already happens in most places in CA"
seems a bit odd for a state with less than 1 in 10 getting any
music education. Given the states performance in math,
english, and reading, music is not likely to see any resurgence
in the cirriculum anytime soon.

Oh goody. More illterate engineers.

Why don't you help out the California educational system, 2pid? I
mean, you never served before. Here's your chance!

Maybe you could volunteer to tutor English to ESL students. LOL!

[Jenn]

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

In article . com,
ScottW wrote:

On Nov 12, 8:08 am, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:





In article

.n
et,
Jenn wrote:

The best hot dog joint in L.A. and politicians alike are abuzz?
Great!

http://www.calendarlive.com/music/cl...ar10nov10,0,55
..
.
6.story?coll=cl-classical

CRITIC'S NOTEBOOK

It's 'Dudamelmania' as classical music's future shifts to a new
class

By Mark Swed, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

A week has passed since Gustavo Dudamel and his Simón Bolívar Youth
Orchestra set Walt Disney Concert Hall afire...

California rediscovers music ed only thirty years after crippling its
own system!

Indeed; at least we HOPE it truly rediscovers it.



I dunno about this 'keeper of the flame' and discrimination stuff.
When
Dudamel starts selling tickets (and attracting patrons) with his
name,
his name will be prominently displayed.

Agreed. It looks like it's about to happen. The guy is getting really
"hot". I can't wait to hear him.

http://www.californiaprogressreport...._care_wat.html

10 billion shortfall and budget cuts looming. Good luck with any
publicly funded music education....ain't happenning.

ScottW

Well, it already happens in most places in CA; the question is the
extent, the quality, what grade it starts, etc.

Read about it he

http://music-for-all.org/sos.html

Yep, it's so much worse than it used to be, and it's so much worse than
it is in other parts of the country. The midwest, TX, AZ,
Michigan...lots of other places are still good; in some cases better
than ever.


Of course, y'all could just raise taxes! :-)

Or universal health care will help that shortfall. Leave it to Scott to
bring up health care costs in discussing music education.

Stephen

[Jenn]

In article .com,
ScottW wrote:

On Nov 12, 10:11 am, MiNe 109 wrote:
In article

om,





Jenn wrote:
In article . com,
ScottW wrote:

On Nov 12, 8:08 am, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

gy.n
et,
Jenn wrote:

The best hot dog joint in L.A. and politicians alike are abuzz?
Great!

http://www.calendarlive.com/music/cl...livar10nov10,0,
55..
.
6.story?coll=cl-classical

CRITIC'S NOTEBOOK

It's 'Dudamelmania' as classical music's future shifts to a new
class

By Mark Swed, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

A week has passed since Gustavo Dudamel and his Simón Bolívar
Youth
Orchestra set Walt Disney Concert Hall afire...

California rediscovers music ed only thirty years after crippling
its
own system!

Indeed; at least we HOPE it truly rediscovers it.

I dunno about this 'keeper of the flame' and discrimination stuff.
When
Dudamel starts selling tickets (and attracting patrons) with his
name,
his name will be prominently displayed.

Agreed. It looks like it's about to happen. The guy is getting
really
"hot". I can't wait to hear him.

http://www.californiaprogressreport...._care_wat.html

10 billion shortfall and budget cuts looming. Good luck with any
publicly funded music education....ain't happenning.

ScottW

Well, it already happens in most places in CA; the question is the
extent, the quality, what grade it starts, etc.

Read about it he

http://music-for-all.org/sos.html

Of course, y'all could just raise taxes! :-)

Since most of education is funded by property tax
that would be the nail in the coffin of Ca housing
market.

It's about priorities.



Or universal health care will help that shortfall. Leave it to Scott to
bring up health care costs in discussing music education.

I just used that article to point out the rising budget deficit
forecast for '08. As the economy declines further
and housing continues to stall, expect those projections
to rise painfully highlighting the fact that Arnold never fixed
the budget deficit but just borrowed his way to short term
balance.

Jenn's comment, "Well, it already happens in most places in CA"
seems a bit odd for a state with less than 1 in 10 getting any
music education.

As I clearly wrote, the question is extent, etc. Almost all schools
have SOME music ed, but the state of it is pretty pitiful in most
districts.

Given the states performance in math,
english, and reading, music is not likely to see any resurgence
in the cirriculum anytime soon.

Given the shortsighted views of so many school boards, you are probably
right, but it is encouraging when at least some politicians are stirred
up.

[Jenn]

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article .com,
ScottW wrote:

On Nov 12, 10:11 am, MiNe 109 wrote:
In article

om,





Jenn wrote:
In article . com,
ScottW wrote:

On Nov 12, 8:08 am, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

di
gy.n
et,
Jenn wrote:

The best hot dog joint in L.A. and politicians alike are abuzz?

Great!

http://www.calendarlive.com/music/cl...bolivar10nov10,
0,
55..
.
6.story?coll=cl-classical

CRITIC'S NOTEBOOK

It's 'Dudamelmania' as classical music's future shifts to a new
class

By Mark Swed, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

A week has passed since Gustavo Dudamel and his Simón Bolívar
Youth
Orchestra set Walt Disney Concert Hall afire...

California rediscovers music ed only thirty years after crippling
its
own system!

Indeed; at least we HOPE it truly rediscovers it.

I dunno about this 'keeper of the flame' and discrimination
stuff.
When
Dudamel starts selling tickets (and attracting patrons) with his
name,
his name will be prominently displayed.

Agreed. It looks like it's about to happen. The guy is getting
really
"hot". I can't wait to hear him.

http://www.californiaprogressreport...._care_wat.html

10 billion shortfall and budget cuts looming. Good luck with any
publicly funded music education....ain't happenning.

ScottW

Well, it already happens in most places in CA; the question is the
extent, the quality, what grade it starts, etc.

Read about it he

http://music-for-all.org/sos.html

Of course, y'all could just raise taxes! :-)

Since most of education is funded by property tax
that would be the nail in the coffin of Ca housing
market.

Sales taxes or VATs are quite lovely if you can't abide property tax
increases.

Or universal health care will help that shortfall. Leave it to Scott to
bring up health care costs in discussing music education.

I just used that article to point out the rising budget deficit
forecast for '08. As the economy declines further
and housing continues to stall, expect those projections
to rise painfully highlighting the fact that Arnold never fixed
the budget deficit but just borrowed his way to short term
balance.

Yes, I agree that was short-sighted.

Jenn's comment, "Well, it already happens in most places in CA"
seems a bit odd for a state with less than 1 in 10 getting any
music education. Given the states performance in math,
english, and reading, music is not likely to see any resurgence
in the cirriculum anytime soon.

It happens in extra-curricular activities. Once upon a time, we thought
there would be marching bands as long as there were football games.

Marching Band is usually the last to be cut, for obvious political
reasons. The problem is, as you know, they start to suck when kids
don't get started until junior high or later, there is less room in the
schedule for electives due to school days that are too short, etc.

Heck, once upon a time Poway and Vista had huge bands.

I'm far out of that scene now, but last I was in it, Poway had over 300
wind players in their program and Vista had something like 200. I know
they are much smaller now, partly due to the schools splitting with new
schools being built. My poor alma mater (Vista) is a shadow of its
former self. God, my senior year, we played Grainger: Lincolnshire Posy
and the Hindemith Symphony!

[Clyde Slick]

On 13 Noi, 00:52, "ScottW" wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message

My poor alma mater (Vista) is a shadow of its
former self. God, my senior year, we played Grainger: Lincolnshire Posy
and the Hindemith Symphony!

Ancient history. Now they play mariachi music.

ScottW

As Lorenzo Welkeverria once said,
a vuno and a dos and a tre

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Nov 12, 11:41 pm, "ScottW" wrote:

Ready for vouchers? Let parents decide if they want to
support schools with music programs.

Can't be any worse than our disaster of a public education
system.[i.e. ..]

.... which churned out the likes of you.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...

Jenn's comment, "Well, it already happens in most places in CA"
seems a bit odd for a state with less than 1 in 10 getting any
music education.

As I clearly wrote, the question is extent, etc.

San Marcos has an extensive music program...
Its called the iPod. Independent study of course.

Almost all schools
have SOME music ed, but the state of it is pretty pitiful in most
districts.

Given the states performance in math,
english, and reading, music is not likely to see any resurgence
in the cirriculum anytime soon.

Given the shortsighted views of so many school boards, you are probably
right, but it is encouraging when at least some politicians are stirred
up.

Ready for vouchers? Let parents decide if they want to
support schools with music programs.

And English programs? And History programs?

Can't be any worse than our disaster of a public education
system.

The system isn't a disaster. It's a disaster in some places. As I've
said before, it's easy to fix with some political will, which as always,
is sorely lacking.

[George M. Middius]

Shhhh! said to Witlessmongrel:

Can't be any worse than our disaster of a public education
system.[i.e. ..]

... which churned out the likes of you.

Promotion for anti-social reasons? G

[Jenn]

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

Once upon a time, we thought
there would be marching bands as long as there were football games.

Marching Band is usually the last to be cut, for obvious political
reasons. The problem is, as you know, they start to suck when kids
don't get started until junior high or later, there is less room in the
schedule for electives due to school days that are too short, etc.

Heck, once upon a time Poway and Vista had huge bands.

I'm far out of that scene now, but last I was in it, Poway had over 300
wind players in their program and Vista had something like 200. I know
they are much smaller now, partly due to the schools splitting with new
schools being built. My poor alma mater (Vista) is a shadow of its
former self. God, my senior year, we played Grainger: Lincolnshire Posy
and the Hindemith Symphony!

I would see the SoCal bands at the All-Western Band Review in Long
Beach. The level of performance and the competitive intensity of the top
bands was really something.

Stephen

Ah yes! The great All-Western! I was a judge in '84 and '86, and as a
kid I won the drum major competition. The band won its class two of my
high school years. The award ceremony was in the Long Beach arena.
Come to think of it, the first year our band appeared (my sophomore
year), it rained and the whole thing took place in the Arena. Great
memories.

[Jenn]

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

et,
Jenn wrote:

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

I would see the SoCal bands at the All-Western Band Review in Long
Beach. The level of performance and the competitive intensity of the top
bands was really something.

Ah yes! The great All-Western! I was a judge in '84 and '86, and as a
kid I won the drum major competition. The band won its class two of my
high school years. The award ceremony was in the Long Beach arena.
Come to think of it, the first year our band appeared (my sophomore
year), it rained and the whole thing took place in the Arena. Great
memories.

Congrats on that drum major thing. IIRC, Vista would have favored what
some called the "sissy stick".

Oh heck no! We were Mace all the way. The band's uniforms were copies
of the British Guard Bands... Coldstream, Scots, Irish, Grenedier, etc.
We even had bagpipes out front.

A classmate trophied in the mace
category, a big deal for a small school whose band had little chance of
placing, although we did outscore most of the NoCal competition. It took
us a couple of years just to get into the Review.

Very cool. It was a great event.


An indoor competition must have been something, what with maneuvering
and all.

The other highlight was the very disreputable boardwalk/pier district. I
guess it's been redeveloped in the last thirty years.

Ah yes; THE PIKE! And yes, it's much nicer now.

Stephen

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Nov 12, 3:07 pm, ScottW wrote:
On Nov 12, 12:34 pm, Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!





wrote:
On Nov 12, 2:07 pm, ScottW wrote:

On Nov 12, 10:11 am, MiNe 109 wrote:
Jenn wrote:
Well, it already happens in most places in CA; the question is the
extent, the quality, what grade it starts, etc.

Read about it he

http://music-for-all.org/sos.html

Of course, y'all could just raise taxes! :-)

Since most of education is funded by property tax
that would be the nail in the coffin of Ca housing
market.

There was a nail in the coffin of California's housing market 10-15
years ago, too.

Not even close to the same scenarios.



Markets ebb and flow. The future always just is. Short-term thinking
always creates long-term problems.

Plattitudes always fail to be meaningful.



Or universal health care will help that shortfall. Leave it to Scott to
bring up health care costs in discussing music education.

I just used that article to point out the rising budget deficit
forecast for '08. As the economy declines further
and housing continues to stall, expect those projections
to rise painfully highlighting the fact that Arnold never fixed
the budget deficit but just borrowed his way to short term
balance.

That sounds very republican of him.

Yeah, lets make him Senator after this.
What do you think?



Jenn's comment, "Well, it already happens in most places in CA"
seems a bit odd for a state with less than 1 in 10 getting any
music education. Given the states performance in math,
english, and reading, music is not likely to see any resurgence
in the cirriculum anytime soon.

Oh goody. More illterate engineers.

Lol...are you an aspiring engineer now?

Point made, x2 because he didn't realize it. No, x3 because he threw
in a lame "IKYABWAI".

I see you have your perceived illiteracy requirement down.
I think the rest of the curriculum is going to give you trouble.

Nobody really cares what you think, 2pid. You post propaganda and then
bail when called on it.

LOL!

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Nov 13, 8:28 am, George M. Middius cmndr _ george @ comcast .
net wrote:
Shhhh! said to Witlessmongrel:

Can't be any worse than our disaster of a public education
system.[i.e. ..]
... which churned out the likes of you.

Promotion for anti-social reasons? G

I think with 2pid it's more like, "I am mad about all kinds of things,
but none of them apply to me."

[Jenn]

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

et,
Jenn wrote:

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

et,
Jenn wrote:

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

I would see the SoCal bands at the All-Western Band Review in Long
Beach. The level of performance and the competitive intensity of the
top
bands was really something.

Ah yes! The great All-Western! I was a judge in '84 and '86, and as a
kid I won the drum major competition. The band won its class two of my
high school years. The award ceremony was in the Long Beach arena.
Come to think of it, the first year our band appeared (my sophomore
year), it rained and the whole thing took place in the Arena. Great
memories.

Congrats on that drum major thing. IIRC, Vista would have favored what
some called the "sissy stick".

Oh heck no! We were Mace all the way. The band's uniforms were copies
of the British Guard Bands... Coldstream, Scots, Irish, Grenedier, etc.
We even had bagpipes out front.

Cool! The ancient memories stir...I think I remember. This prompted a
conversation this morning about how cool the mace is in comparison. You
don't see them thrown outside of a band review or a tattoo and I mean
thrown: fifteen feet up is plenty for a potential lethal weapon.

My band had a similar style with guard uniforms (Welsh Guard) and pipes;
we even had the regimental marches in arrangements 'borrowed' from a
regimental director.

What school?


A classmate trophied in the mace
category, a big deal for a small school whose band had little chance of
placing, although we did outscore most of the NoCal competition. It took
us a couple of years just to get into the Review.

Very cool. It was a great event.

Indeed.

An indoor competition must have been something, what with maneuvering
and all.

The other highlight was the very disreputable boardwalk/pier district. I
guess it's been redeveloped in the last thirty years.

Ah yes; THE PIKE! And yes, it's much nicer now.

Back then tattoo parlors weren't hip.

Stephen

[Jenn]

In article . com,
ScottW wrote:

On Nov 12, 10:55 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,





"ScottW" wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message
.
com
...

Jenn's comment, "Well, it already happens in most places in CA"
seems a bit odd for a state with less than 1 in 10 getting any
music education.

As I clearly wrote, the question is extent, etc.

San Marcos has an extensive music program...
Its called the iPod. Independent study of course.

Almost all schools
have SOME music ed, but the state of it is pretty pitiful in most
districts.

Given the states performance in math,
english, and reading, music is not likely to see any resurgence
in the cirriculum anytime soon.

Given the shortsighted views of so many school boards, you are probably
right, but it is encouraging when at least some politicians are stirred
up.

Ready for vouchers? Let parents decide if they want to
support schools with music programs.

And English programs? And History programs?

State requirements must be met.

Not really:
1. A church related school can, for example teach that evolution is
false, even though it's in the state curriculum.
2. It's in the state requirements that music and the other arts be
taught in every grade in every school, but we know that it's not.



Can't be any worse than our disaster of a public education
system.

The system isn't a disaster. It's a disaster in some places.

Systems that fail in some places are failed systems.

I meant to put quotes around "system". There isn't one system. So to
say that the system is a disaster is nonsense.


As I've
said before, it's easy to fix with some political will,

Yes the will to resist the corrupt teachers unions is lacking.

Other than vouchers and tenure, with what do you disagree with the
unions?


which as always,
is sorely lacking.

ScottW

[George M. Middius]

Jenn said:

Yes the will to resist the corrupt teachers unions is lacking.

Other than vouchers and tenure, with what do you disagree with the
unions?

That's easy enough -- Scottie is against hiring Democrats or other
traitors, and the unions should enforce his "principles".

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Nov 13, 6:22 pm, ScottW wrote:
On Nov 13, 4:15 pm, Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

Nobody really cares what you think, 2pid. You post propaganda and then
bail when called on it.

I should stay and trade childish insults until you submit? No
thanks.

And I'm the only one you bail out on when challenged? LOL!

Lots of people here would be surprised to hear it.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Nov 13, 11:52 am, ScottW wrote:
On Nov 12, 10:55 pm, Jenn wrote:

And English programs? And History programs?

State requirements must be met.

No, they don't. The rampant corruption in the teacher's unions said
so. So did the liberal MSM.

Can't be any worse than our disaster of a public education
system.

The system isn't a disaster. It's a disaster in some places.

Systems that fail in some places are failed systems.

LMAO!

And you tell me platitudes are worthless. The biggest difference is
that mine make sense.

Anyway, you seem to suggest throwing out the whole system (because it
isn't working in a few locations) and replace it with... exactly what?

(Note to 2pid: this is an open-ended question designed to allow you to
freely state what your alternatives would be. Contrast this with
simple whining, where somebody might post hundreds of OT posts, and
yet never, ever, offer one single valid solution. We had a name for
people like that in the Army.)

As I've
said before, it's easy to fix with some political will,

Yes the will to resist the corrupt teachers unions is lacking.

Do you have evidence of corruption for all teacher's unions? Do you
have any concerning California only? Please provide it.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Nov 13, 6:23 pm, ScottW wrote:
On Nov 13, 4:15 pm, Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!





wrote:
On Nov 12, 3:07 pm, ScottW wrote:

On Nov 12, 12:34 pm, Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!

wrote:
On Nov 12, 2:07 pm, ScottW wrote:

On Nov 12, 10:11 am, MiNe 109 wrote:
Jenn wrote:
Well, it already happens in most places in CA; the question is the
extent, the quality, what grade it starts, etc.

Read about it he

http://music-for-all.org/sos.html

Of course, y'all could just raise taxes! :-)

Since most of education is funded by property tax
that would be the nail in the coffin of Ca housing
market.

There was a nail in the coffin of California's housing market 10-15
years ago, too.

Not even close to the same scenarios.

Markets ebb and flow. The future always just is. Short-term thinking
always creates long-term problems.

Plattitudes always fail to be meaningful.

Or universal health care will help that shortfall. Leave it to Scott to
bring up health care costs in discussing music education.

I just used that article to point out the rising budget deficit
forecast for '08. As the economy declines further
and housing continues to stall, expect those projections
to rise painfully highlighting the fact that Arnold never fixed
the budget deficit but just borrowed his way to short term
balance.

That sounds very republican of him.

Yeah, lets make him Senator after this.
What do you think?

Jenn's comment, "Well, it already happens in most places in CA"
seems a bit odd for a state with less than 1 in 10 getting any
music education. Given the states performance in math,
english, and reading, music is not likely to see any resurgence
in the cirriculum anytime soon.

Oh goody. More illterate engineers.

Lol...are you an aspiring engineer now?

Point made, x2 because he didn't realize it. No, x3 because he threw
in a lame "IKYABWAI".

I see you have your perceived illiteracy requirement down.
I think the rest of the curriculum is going to give you trouble.

Nobody really cares what you think, 2pid. You post propaganda and then
bail when called on it.

I should stay and trade childish insults until you submit? No
thanks.

That was such a good post, I find that I agree it needed to be posted
twice.

LOL!

Um, 2pid, I'm really very sorry that you were born without a surplus
of brains, or that something happened to damage yours. But that's not
my problem, that would be yours.;-)

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Nov 13, 9:24 pm, "ScottW" wrote:

These people should be banned from lobbying state gov't as their tax dollar
funded.

Ooooops. There goes free speech again.

And you were doing so well.

[Jenn]

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

om,
Jenn wrote:

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

et,
Jenn wrote:

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

.n
et,
Jenn wrote:

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

I would see the SoCal bands at the All-Western Band Review in
Long
Beach. The level of performance and the competitive intensity of
the
top
bands was really something.

Ah yes! The great All-Western! I was a judge in '84 and '86, and
as
a
kid I won the drum major competition. The band won its class two
of
my
high school years. The award ceremony was in the Long Beach arena.

Come to think of it, the first year our band appeared (my sophomore
year), it rained and the whole thing took place in the Arena.
Great
memories.

Congrats on that drum major thing. IIRC, Vista would have favored
what
some called the "sissy stick".

Oh heck no! We were Mace all the way. The band's uniforms were copies
of the British Guard Bands... Coldstream, Scots, Irish, Grenedier, etc.

We even had bagpipes out front.

Cool! The ancient memories stir...I think I remember. This prompted a
conversation this morning about how cool the mace is in comparison. You
don't see them thrown outside of a band review or a tattoo and I mean
thrown: fifteen feet up is plenty for a potential lethal weapon.

My band had a similar style with guard uniforms (Welsh Guard) and pipes;
we even had the regimental marches in arrangements 'borrowed' from a
regimental director.

What school?

It's named after a minor planet :-).

I'm being slow; not getting it!

The director had success at Selma
in raisin country, but sadly died young some twenty-five years ago.

I remember Selma at the All Western. Also British style uniforms, IIRC.
I almost applied for that job 25 years ago for that reason!

Stephen

[Jenn]

In article ,
"ScottW" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article . com,
ScottW wrote:

On Nov 12, 10:55 pm, Jenn wrote:
In article ,





"ScottW" wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message

gy.
com
...

Jenn's comment, "Well, it already happens in most places in CA"
seems a bit odd for a state with less than 1 in 10 getting any
music education.

As I clearly wrote, the question is extent, etc.

San Marcos has an extensive music program...
Its called the iPod. Independent study of course.

Almost all schools
have SOME music ed, but the state of it is pretty pitiful in most
districts.

Given the states performance in math,
english, and reading, music is not likely to see any resurgence
in the cirriculum anytime soon.

Given the shortsighted views of so many school boards, you are
probably
right, but it is encouraging when at least some politicians are
stirred
up.

Ready for vouchers? Let parents decide if they want to
support schools with music programs.

And English programs? And History programs?

State requirements must be met.

Not really:
1. A church related school can, for example teach that evolution is
false, even though it's in the state curriculum.

When they get the 3 Rs. they can worry about this stuff.

They don't have to wait. They can, for example teach "keeping the faith
through snake handling", the reading scores can suck, and still they get
the tax dollars.


2. It's in the state requirements that music and the other arts be
taught in every grade in every school, but we know that it's not.

You're gonna have to prove that one.
Maybe available to every grade, but not mandatory for every grade.

Sorry, I left out a word. It's mandatory in each K-6 grade, then
available to each grade after that. But of course, it really isn't.





Can't be any worse than our disaster of a public education
system.

The system isn't a disaster. It's a disaster in some places.

Systems that fail in some places are failed systems.

I meant to put quotes around "system". There isn't one system. So to
say that the system is a disaster is nonsense.

While you may consider each public school system separate the operate
with very similar operating systems. School boards, administrators,
union teachers, state approved curriculum and exit exams.

OK, so what would you change about those things to make it better?


The largest example of this "system", LA is a failure.
Many small examples are failures. Overall measure of all
the systems is a failure.

Then elect a good school board in SM and change things. If you can.


This system does not work given the challenges it
faces today. Isolate districts generally not faced with the
well documented challenges of others manage to perform.

So you agree that much of the cause of "failure" has nothing to do with
"they system"?




As I've
said before, it's easy to fix with some political will,

Yes the will to resist the corrupt teachers unions is lacking.

Other than vouchers and tenure, with what do you disagree with the
unions?

Carolyn Doggett has a radio voice that matches her name.
Her "resume" reads of a publicly funded (tax dollars to teachers
salaries to the union) political action committee.

Since Doggett became executive director in 1995, CTA led the successful fight
to
pass the statewide $13 billion school bond in 2002,

Awful!

launched an ongoing
campaign
to help our schools of greatest need in 2001,

The nerve!

defeated a well-financed
voucher
initiative in 2000, secured a new state program to reduce class sizes in the
kindergarten through third-grade levels,

Smaller class sizes? Bitch!

helped increase state education
funding,

Dang! She should have helped decrease it!


and greatly improved teachers' pensions.

Scandal!

During her tenure, CTA membership has swelled to more than 335,000 public
school
teachers, counselors, psychologists, and librarians.

Wow, she was successful at her job. Imagine that.

They work in the more
than
1,000 chapters that comprise what's also the largest professional employee
organization in California.

These people should be banned from lobbying state gov't as their (sic) tax dollar
funded.

lol

[Jenn]

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

et,
Jenn wrote:

My band had a similar style with guard uniforms (Welsh Guard) and
pipes;
we even had the regimental marches in arrangements 'borrowed' from
a
regimental director.

What school?

It's named after a minor planet :-).

I'm being slow; not getting it!

Ceres. There's no reason to know about it unless you read your 'Two-buck
Chuck' label.

The director had success at Selma
in raisin country, but sadly died young some twenty-five years ago.

I remember Selma at the All Western. Also British style uniforms, IIRC.
I almost applied for that job 25 years ago for that reason!

The director left Selma for my school and took his 'look' with him. The
valley bands had their heyday decades before that when there was nothing
else to do but join the band.

A phone call home jogged my memory: my band in Ceres modeled its banners
after those of Vista! We liked the black velvet.

Stephen

:-)

[Jenn]

On Nov 18, 8:23 pm, MiNe 109 wrote:
In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:



In article

et,
Jenn wrote:

My band had a similar style with guard uniforms (Welsh Guard) and
pipes;
we even had the regimental marches in arrangements 'borrowed' from a
regimental director.

What school?

It's named after a minor planet :-).

I'm being slow; not getting it!

Ceres. There's no reason to know about it unless you read your 'Two-buck
Chuck' label.

The director had success at Selma
in raisin country, but sadly died young some twenty-five years ago.

I remember Selma at the All Western. Also British style uniforms, IIRC.
I almost applied for that job 25 years ago for that reason!

The director left Selma for my school and took his 'look' with him. The
valley bands had their heyday decades before that when there was nothing
else to do but join the band.

A phone call home jogged my memory: my band in Ceres modeled its banners
after those of Vista! We liked the black velvet.

Stephen

Wow...your post just jogged MY memory; my mom sewed the first velvet
banners! Later when we had enough money, they were replaced by
professionally done ones, same style.

[Clyde Slick]

On 19 Noi, 00:29, Jenn wrote:
On Nov 18, 8:23 pm, MiNe 109 wrote:



In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

et,
Jenn wrote:

My band had a similar style with guard uniforms (Welsh Guard) and
pipes;
we even had the regimental marches in arrangements 'borrowed' from a
regimental director.

What school?

It's named after a minor planet :-).

I'm being slow; not getting it!

Ceres. There's no reason to know about it unless you read your 'Two-buck
Chuck' label.

The director had success at Selma
in raisin country, but sadly died young some twenty-five years ago.

I remember Selma at the All Western. Also British style uniforms, IIRC.
I almost applied for that job 25 years ago for that reason!

The director left Selma for my school and took his 'look' with him. The
valley bands had their heyday decades before that when there was nothing
else to do but join the band.

A phone call home jogged my memory: my band in Ceres modeled its banners
after those of Vista! We liked the black velvet.

Stephen

Wow...your post just jogged MY memory; my mom sewed the first velvet
banners! Later when we had enough money, they were replaced by
professionally done ones, same style.

with, or without Elvis?

[Jenn]

In article
,
Clyde Slick wrote:

On 19 Noi, 00:29, Jenn wrote:
On Nov 18, 8:23 pm, MiNe 109 wrote:



In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

et,
Jenn wrote:

My band had a similar style with guard uniforms (Welsh Guard)
and
pipes;
we even had the regimental marches in arrangements 'borrowed'
from a
regimental director.

What school?

It's named after a minor planet :-).

I'm being slow; not getting it!

Ceres. There's no reason to know about it unless you read your
'Two-buck
Chuck' label.

The director had success at Selma
in raisin country, but sadly died young some twenty-five years ago.

I remember Selma at the All Western. Also British style uniforms,
IIRC.
I almost applied for that job 25 years ago for that reason!

The director left Selma for my school and took his 'look' with him. The
valley bands had their heyday decades before that when there was
nothing
else to do but join the band.

A phone call home jogged my memory: my band in Ceres modeled its banners
after those of Vista! We liked the black velvet.

Stephen

Wow...your post just jogged MY memory; my mom sewed the first velvet
banners! Later when we had enough money, they were replaced by
professionally done ones, same style.

with, or without Elvis?

Dogs playing poker

[Clyde Slick]

On 19 Noi, 01:11, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
Clyde Slick wrote:



On 19 Noi, 00:29, Jenn wrote:
On Nov 18, 8:23 pm, MiNe 109 wrote:

In article
,
MiNe 109 wrote:

In article

et,
Jenn wrote:

My band had a similar style with guard uniforms (Welsh Guard)
and
pipes;
we even had the regimental marches in arrangements 'borrowed'
from a
regimental director.

What school?

It's named after a minor planet :-).

I'm being slow; not getting it!

Ceres. There's no reason to know about it unless you read your
'Two-buck
Chuck' label.

The director had success at Selma
in raisin country, but sadly died young some twenty-five years ago.

I remember Selma at the All Western. Also British style uniforms,
IIRC.
I almost applied for that job 25 years ago for that reason!

The director left Selma for my school and took his 'look' with him. The
valley bands had their heyday decades before that when there was
nothing
else to do but join the band.

A phone call home jogged my memory: my band in Ceres modeled its banners
after those of Vista! We liked the black velvet.

Stephen

Wow...your post just jogged MY memory; my mom sewed the first velvet
banners! Later when we had enough money, they were replaced by
professionally done ones, same style.

with, or without Elvis?

Dogs playing poker

a doggie marching brass section would have fit just right.