A brief discussion on resolving systems with a gentleman who makes
single driver speakers in what appears to be a folded Voigt Pipe
design turned briefly to resonances. My general contention was that
since he was using alder as opposed to MDF, that it would result in
additional resonances which would color the sound. Some mild umbrage
was taken. The conversation went like this. Am I somehow missing
something here or is this a combination of spin coupled with some
factual errors regarding wood?

Him: Sure, it will resonate. So will wood, steel, micarta, MDF, and
ANYTHING ELSE that has any mechanical stiffness. How it resonates and
whether it's important depends upon its stiffness, it's internal
mechanical losses, how it's mounted and secured and how it's
mechanically loaded and acoustically excited.

Me: This should not be interpreted as the intentional use of materials
to impart resonances as opposed to MDF which has a more predictable
nature? In ways, it reminds me of the various woods that can be used
in the construction of guitars where I think MDF, apart from being
heavy, might not make for the most pleasing of sounds.

Him: No, you have interpreted incorrectly. A common misconception
though. But yes woods do flavor sound, for guitars and speakers. Part
of woods amazing quality is that it can be made to resonate more, as
in the case of a guitar or piano, but that same piano usues wood to
isolate the vibration (the case) so the most energy can be released to
the room (more music)
What solid wood does in the case of my speaker is resonate LESS. I use
solid wood for it's weight vs ridgidity, it is far more ridgid than
mdf. And contributes actually less in the form of self -resonance. In
addition we have have made this speaker from teak, oak, mdf, plywood,
pine, alder, maple and cherry. All have distinct sonic "flavors". The
solid wood particularly the maple extends bass and allows the very
absolute maximum energy transfer from driver cone to port to room
without imparting audible resonance of it's own. The mdf example
sounded muffled and lifeless. My designs pursue maximum energy
transfer from electrical to the room both from the front of the driver
and the rear.. I once made a xylephone from different species of wood,
the keys all the same size as an experiment. 5 octaves were covered
just from locally growing trees.
One really has to integrate decisions about grain orientation,
thicknesses of wood as well as joint strength to carry this discussion
comparing materials to any logical extent as it relates to
speakerbuilding.

Me: If it's your position that cabinet augmentation is desireable,
then we stand on opposite sides. If you feel that it gives your
speaker a characteristic sound that is pleasing, I can live with that.

Him: The concept that you propose I subscribe to is incorrect, you
mis-nterpret my intention of reducing resonance through the use of
solid wood. MDf does not eliminate resonance. It reduces it
drastically, such that it also reduces musical content via energy
absorption.

If you look at speakerbuilding from another angle, the anthropological
veiw, we see that as forests shrank and skilled labor was replaced
with machinery. The square box (usually sealed or ported0 became the
de-facto method of augmenting the bass drivers own free-air resonance
(fs) or limiting it in the case of sealed enclosures. I submit this
has every thing to do with the advent of high powered solid state
amplifiers as equally as declining skills in our labor pool. MDF was
not created for eliminating resonance in speaker boxes but rather to
utilize vast stretches of inadequate lumber stocks. From an acoustical
standpoint MDF is dampening. It absorbs sound due to it's mass and
weight.

I am trying to allow the energy that would be absorbed by MDF to be
better utilized re-creating acoustical energy in the room. Of course
you do not want your speakerbox to vibrate, but using a "dead" panel
is the easy way out and not neccesarily the best method. ANd I think
Franco Serbelin agrees.

Chu Gai wrote:

snip From an acoustical
standpoint MDF is dampening. It absorbs sound due to it's mass and
weight.

I am trying to allow the energy that would be absorbed by MDF to be
better utilized re-creating acoustical energy in the room. Of course
you do not want your speakerbox to vibrate, but using a "dead" panel
is the easy way out and not neccesarily the best method. ANd I think
Franco Serbelin agrees.

These statements by "Him" seem silly. Ideally, the speaker cabinet
should add nothing to the sound coming from the speaker cones. "Him"
seems to be claiming that MD fiberboard absorbs so much of the speaker
output that the efficiency of the speaker system is compromised. That
sounds like BS to me.

Chu Gai wrote:

snip From an acoustical
standpoint MDF is dampening. It absorbs sound due to it's mass and
weight.

I am trying to allow the energy that would be absorbed by MDF to be
better utilized re-creating acoustical energy in the room. Of course
you do not want your speakerbox to vibrate, but using a "dead" panel
is the easy way out and not neccesarily the best method. ANd I think
Franco Serbelin agrees.

These statements by "Him" seem silly. Ideally, the speaker cabinet
should add nothing to the sound coming from the speaker cones. "Him"
seems to be claiming that MD fiberboard absorbs so much of the speaker
output that the efficiency of the speaker system is compromised. That
sounds like BS to me.

Chu Gai wrote:

snip From an acoustical
standpoint MDF is dampening. It absorbs sound due to it's mass and
weight.

I am trying to allow the energy that would be absorbed by MDF to be
better utilized re-creating acoustical energy in the room. Of course
you do not want your speakerbox to vibrate, but using a "dead" panel
is the easy way out and not neccesarily the best method. ANd I think
Franco Serbelin agrees.

These statements by "Him" seem silly. Ideally, the speaker cabinet
should add nothing to the sound coming from the speaker cones. "Him"
seems to be claiming that MD fiberboard absorbs so much of the speaker
output that the efficiency of the speaker system is compromised. That
sounds like BS to me.

Chu Gai wrote:

I am trying to allow the energy that would be absorbed by MDF to be
better utilized re-creating acoustical energy in the room.

It seems like you are missing the fact that relatively efficient home
speakers are about 1% efficient. IOW, if you want to worry about the
inefficiency of your speakers, you would do well to look elsewhere than the
sound absorbed by the damping of the wood in the boxes.

Chu Gai wrote:

I am trying to allow the energy that would be absorbed by MDF to be
better utilized re-creating acoustical energy in the room.

It seems like you are missing the fact that relatively efficient home
speakers are about 1% efficient. IOW, if you want to worry about the
inefficiency of your speakers, you would do well to look elsewhere than the
sound absorbed by the damping of the wood in the boxes.

Chu Gai wrote:

I am trying to allow the energy that would be absorbed by MDF to be
better utilized re-creating acoustical energy in the room.

It seems like you are missing the fact that relatively efficient home
speakers are about 1% efficient. IOW, if you want to worry about the
inefficiency of your speakers, you would do well to look elsewhere than the
sound absorbed by the damping of the wood in the boxes.

(Chu Gai) wrote in message . com...

and the rear.. I once made a xylephone from different species of wood,
the keys all the same size as an experiment. 5 octaves were covered
just from locally growing trees.

I looked up the properties of different woods in the CRC Handbook of
Chemistry and Physics. There is a fair amount of variation in density
and Young's modulus, but not enough to account for 5 octaves. And if
the keys are made out of wood, it's called a marimba.

If you look at speakerbuilding from another angle, the anthropological
veiw, we see that as forests shrank and skilled labor was replaced

Ah, the anthropological view. Of course.

(Chu Gai) wrote in message . com...

and the rear.. I once made a xylephone from different species of wood,
the keys all the same size as an experiment. 5 octaves were covered
just from locally growing trees.

I looked up the properties of different woods in the CRC Handbook of
Chemistry and Physics. There is a fair amount of variation in density
and Young's modulus, but not enough to account for 5 octaves. And if
the keys are made out of wood, it's called a marimba.

If you look at speakerbuilding from another angle, the anthropological
veiw, we see that as forests shrank and skilled labor was replaced

Ah, the anthropological view. Of course.

(Chu Gai) wrote in message . com...

and the rear.. I once made a xylephone from different species of wood,
the keys all the same size as an experiment. 5 octaves were covered
just from locally growing trees.

I looked up the properties of different woods in the CRC Handbook of
Chemistry and Physics. There is a fair amount of variation in density
and Young's modulus, but not enough to account for 5 octaves. And if
the keys are made out of wood, it's called a marimba.

If you look at speakerbuilding from another angle, the anthropological
veiw, we see that as forests shrank and skilled labor was replaced

Ah, the anthropological view. Of course.

Subject: Question on the Type of Wood Used in Speaker Construction and
Effect on Sound
From: (Detector195)
Date: 5/26/04 9:12 PM Mountain Daylight Time
Message-id:

(Chu Gai) wrote in message
.com...

and the rear.. I once made a xylephone from different species of wood,
the keys all the same size as an experiment. 5 octaves were covered
just from locally growing trees.

I looked up the properties of different woods in the CRC Handbook of
Chemistry and Physics. There is a fair amount of variation in density
and Young's modulus, but not enough to account for 5 octaves. And if
the keys are made out of wood, it's called a marimba.




Nope, a Xylophone is by built with wood bars.

It is in a different pitch range than a Marimba.

Back to speakers, You do not want the box to resonate and 1-1/2 " particle
board will work very well for a speaker box.

If you want it to look nice, just apply wood veneer.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

Subject: Question on the Type of Wood Used in Speaker Construction and
Effect on Sound
From: (Detector195)
Date: 5/26/04 9:12 PM Mountain Daylight Time
Message-id:

(Chu Gai) wrote in message
.com...

and the rear.. I once made a xylephone from different species of wood,
the keys all the same size as an experiment. 5 octaves were covered
just from locally growing trees.

I looked up the properties of different woods in the CRC Handbook of
Chemistry and Physics. There is a fair amount of variation in density
and Young's modulus, but not enough to account for 5 octaves. And if
the keys are made out of wood, it's called a marimba.




Nope, a Xylophone is by built with wood bars.

It is in a different pitch range than a Marimba.

Back to speakers, You do not want the box to resonate and 1-1/2 " particle
board will work very well for a speaker box.

If you want it to look nice, just apply wood veneer.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

Subject: Question on the Type of Wood Used in Speaker Construction and
Effect on Sound
From: (Detector195)
Date: 5/26/04 9:12 PM Mountain Daylight Time
Message-id:

(Chu Gai) wrote in message
.com...

and the rear.. I once made a xylephone from different species of wood,
the keys all the same size as an experiment. 5 octaves were covered
just from locally growing trees.

I looked up the properties of different woods in the CRC Handbook of
Chemistry and Physics. There is a fair amount of variation in density
and Young's modulus, but not enough to account for 5 octaves. And if
the keys are made out of wood, it's called a marimba.




Nope, a Xylophone is by built with wood bars.

It is in a different pitch range than a Marimba.

Back to speakers, You do not want the box to resonate and 1-1/2 " particle
board will work very well for a speaker box.

If you want it to look nice, just apply wood veneer.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

(Richard Kuschel) wrote in message ...
Subject: Question on the Type of Wood Used in Speaker Construction and
Effect on Sound
From: (Detector195)
Date: 5/26/04 9:12 PM Mountain Daylight Time
Message-id:

(Chu Gai) wrote in message
.com...

and the rear.. I once made a xylephone from different species of wood,
the keys all the same size as an experiment. 5 octaves were covered
just from locally growing trees.

I looked up the properties of different woods in the CRC Handbook of
Chemistry and Physics. There is a fair amount of variation in density
and Young's modulus, but not enough to account for 5 octaves. And if
the keys are made out of wood, it's called a marimba.




Nope, a Xylophone is by built with wood bars.

It is in a different pitch range than a Marimba.

Back to speakers, You do not want the box to resonate and 1-1/2 " particle
board will work very well for a speaker box.

If you want it to look nice, just apply wood veneer.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

Dang, you got me. I was thinking of a vibraphone.

Amusingly enough, my bass amplifier is in a cabinet made from 1/8 inch
steel panels. You can hear the resonance when you knock on it, but it
still sounds just fine.

(Richard Kuschel) wrote in message ...
Subject: Question on the Type of Wood Used in Speaker Construction and
Effect on Sound
From: (Detector195)
Date: 5/26/04 9:12 PM Mountain Daylight Time
Message-id:

(Chu Gai) wrote in message
.com...

and the rear.. I once made a xylephone from different species of wood,
the keys all the same size as an experiment. 5 octaves were covered
just from locally growing trees.

I looked up the properties of different woods in the CRC Handbook of
Chemistry and Physics. There is a fair amount of variation in density
and Young's modulus, but not enough to account for 5 octaves. And if
the keys are made out of wood, it's called a marimba.




Nope, a Xylophone is by built with wood bars.

It is in a different pitch range than a Marimba.

Back to speakers, You do not want the box to resonate and 1-1/2 " particle
board will work very well for a speaker box.

If you want it to look nice, just apply wood veneer.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

Dang, you got me. I was thinking of a vibraphone.

Amusingly enough, my bass amplifier is in a cabinet made from 1/8 inch
steel panels. You can hear the resonance when you knock on it, but it
still sounds just fine.

(Richard Kuschel) wrote in message ...
Subject: Question on the Type of Wood Used in Speaker Construction and
Effect on Sound
From: (Detector195)
Date: 5/26/04 9:12 PM Mountain Daylight Time
Message-id:

(Chu Gai) wrote in message
.com...

and the rear.. I once made a xylephone from different species of wood,
the keys all the same size as an experiment. 5 octaves were covered
just from locally growing trees.

I looked up the properties of different woods in the CRC Handbook of
Chemistry and Physics. There is a fair amount of variation in density
and Young's modulus, but not enough to account for 5 octaves. And if
the keys are made out of wood, it's called a marimba.




Nope, a Xylophone is by built with wood bars.

It is in a different pitch range than a Marimba.

Back to speakers, You do not want the box to resonate and 1-1/2 " particle
board will work very well for a speaker box.

If you want it to look nice, just apply wood veneer.
Richard H. Kuschel
"I canna change the law of physics."-----Scotty

Dang, you got me. I was thinking of a vibraphone.

Amusingly enough, my bass amplifier is in a cabinet made from 1/8 inch
steel panels. You can hear the resonance when you knock on it, but it
still sounds just fine.

For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

(Sam Byrams) wrote in message . com...
For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

Well, I can say one thing. MDF is a disaster waiting to happen with
portable speakers -- it swells up when it gets rained on. I always got
satisfactory results with homemade cabs when I used the regular 3/4
birch plywood from Home Depot, though I felt compelled to steer around
the voids.

(Sam Byrams) wrote in message . com...
For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

Well, I can say one thing. MDF is a disaster waiting to happen with
portable speakers -- it swells up when it gets rained on. I always got
satisfactory results with homemade cabs when I used the regular 3/4
birch plywood from Home Depot, though I felt compelled to steer around
the voids.

(Sam Byrams) wrote in message . com...
For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

Well, I can say one thing. MDF is a disaster waiting to happen with
portable speakers -- it swells up when it gets rained on. I always got
satisfactory results with homemade cabs when I used the regular 3/4
birch plywood from Home Depot, though I felt compelled to steer around
the voids.

In article ,
Detector195 wrote:

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

Considering how much Corian costs, I'm not surprised it's "underused".
I've been told that you pretty much pay for it by the cubic inch,
and that it's very difficult to get ahold of it except as part of
a formal installation by a licensed dealer/installer.

Allegedly, duPont doesn't like the idea of it being installed by
anyone not trained to their standard, on the grounds that it's fairly
easy to mess up an installation (and thus, I presume, they're afraid
of having Corian's good name as a "premium" product damaged by having
people see botched jobs).

I've heard that there are somewhat-similar products from other
manufacturers (essentially finely powdered rock dust in a resin
of some sort) and these might be easier to source.

MDF is heavy enough - I built a set of floordstanding semitower
systems 4' tall, with single-thickness 3/4" MDF for most of the
walls and double-thickness for the front plate. With this much
MDF, plus some internal walls and braces, they're so heavy that
they're at the limit of my ability to move them safely without
assistance. I shudder to think what Corian-based cabs of the
same size would weigh!

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

In article ,
Detector195 wrote:

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

Considering how much Corian costs, I'm not surprised it's "underused".
I've been told that you pretty much pay for it by the cubic inch,
and that it's very difficult to get ahold of it except as part of
a formal installation by a licensed dealer/installer.

Allegedly, duPont doesn't like the idea of it being installed by
anyone not trained to their standard, on the grounds that it's fairly
easy to mess up an installation (and thus, I presume, they're afraid
of having Corian's good name as a "premium" product damaged by having
people see botched jobs).

I've heard that there are somewhat-similar products from other
manufacturers (essentially finely powdered rock dust in a resin
of some sort) and these might be easier to source.

MDF is heavy enough - I built a set of floordstanding semitower
systems 4' tall, with single-thickness 3/4" MDF for most of the
walls and double-thickness for the front plate. With this much
MDF, plus some internal walls and braces, they're so heavy that
they're at the limit of my ability to move them safely without
assistance. I shudder to think what Corian-based cabs of the
same size would weigh!

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

In article ,
Detector195 wrote:

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

Considering how much Corian costs, I'm not surprised it's "underused".
I've been told that you pretty much pay for it by the cubic inch,
and that it's very difficult to get ahold of it except as part of
a formal installation by a licensed dealer/installer.

Allegedly, duPont doesn't like the idea of it being installed by
anyone not trained to their standard, on the grounds that it's fairly
easy to mess up an installation (and thus, I presume, they're afraid
of having Corian's good name as a "premium" product damaged by having
people see botched jobs).

I've heard that there are somewhat-similar products from other
manufacturers (essentially finely powdered rock dust in a resin
of some sort) and these might be easier to source.

MDF is heavy enough - I built a set of floordstanding semitower
systems 4' tall, with single-thickness 3/4" MDF for most of the
walls and double-thickness for the front plate. With this much
MDF, plus some internal walls and braces, they're so heavy that
they're at the limit of my ability to move them safely without
assistance. I shudder to think what Corian-based cabs of the
same size would weigh!

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

On 1 Jun 2004 17:53:03 -0700, (Detector195)
wrote:

(Sam Byrams) wrote in message . com...
For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

Well, I can say one thing. MDF is a disaster waiting to happen with
portable speakers -- it swells up when it gets rained on. I always got
satisfactory results with homemade cabs when I used the regular 3/4
birch plywood from Home Depot, though I felt compelled to steer around
the voids.

Agreed, and marine plywood is even more impervious to abuse,
especially if heavily varnished.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On 1 Jun 2004 17:53:03 -0700, (Detector195)
wrote:

(Sam Byrams) wrote in message . com...
For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

Well, I can say one thing. MDF is a disaster waiting to happen with
portable speakers -- it swells up when it gets rained on. I always got
satisfactory results with homemade cabs when I used the regular 3/4
birch plywood from Home Depot, though I felt compelled to steer around
the voids.

Agreed, and marine plywood is even more impervious to abuse,
especially if heavily varnished.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On 1 Jun 2004 17:53:03 -0700, (Detector195)
wrote:

(Sam Byrams) wrote in message . com...
For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

Well, I can say one thing. MDF is a disaster waiting to happen with
portable speakers -- it swells up when it gets rained on. I always got
satisfactory results with homemade cabs when I used the regular 3/4
birch plywood from Home Depot, though I felt compelled to steer around
the voids.

Agreed, and marine plywood is even more impervious to abuse,
especially if heavily varnished.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message . ..
On 1 Jun 2004 17:53:03 -0700, (Detector195)
wrote:

(Sam Byrams) wrote in message . com...
For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

No, glitzy, flashy but completely lacking in depth and substance.

Well, I can say one thing. MDF is a disaster waiting to happen with
portable speakers -- it swells up when it gets rained on. I always got
satisfactory results with homemade cabs when I used the regular 3/4
birch plywood from Home Depot, though I felt compelled to steer around
the voids.

Agreed, and marine plywood is even more impervious to abuse,
especially if heavily varnished.

Actually, there is a specific product called "void-free" thin-layer
birch plywood, part of the generic "baltic birch" family of products.
It has no internal voids and uses a better glue. It's used a lot in
making windchests in pipe organs, where you don't want air finding
it's way into places it shouldn't be going.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message . ..
On 1 Jun 2004 17:53:03 -0700, (Detector195)
wrote:

(Sam Byrams) wrote in message . com...
For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

No, glitzy, flashy but completely lacking in depth and substance.

Well, I can say one thing. MDF is a disaster waiting to happen with
portable speakers -- it swells up when it gets rained on. I always got
satisfactory results with homemade cabs when I used the regular 3/4
birch plywood from Home Depot, though I felt compelled to steer around
the voids.

Agreed, and marine plywood is even more impervious to abuse,
especially if heavily varnished.

Actually, there is a specific product called "void-free" thin-layer
birch plywood, part of the generic "baltic birch" family of products.
It has no internal voids and uses a better glue. It's used a lot in
making windchests in pipe organs, where you don't want air finding
it's way into places it shouldn't be going.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message . ..
On 1 Jun 2004 17:53:03 -0700, (Detector195)
wrote:

(Sam Byrams) wrote in message . com...
For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

No, glitzy, flashy but completely lacking in depth and substance.

Well, I can say one thing. MDF is a disaster waiting to happen with
portable speakers -- it swells up when it gets rained on. I always got
satisfactory results with homemade cabs when I used the regular 3/4
birch plywood from Home Depot, though I felt compelled to steer around
the voids.

Agreed, and marine plywood is even more impervious to abuse,
especially if heavily varnished.

Actually, there is a specific product called "void-free" thin-layer
birch plywood, part of the generic "baltic birch" family of products.
It has no internal voids and uses a better glue. It's used a lot in
making windchests in pipe organs, where you don't want air finding
it's way into places it shouldn't be going.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message . ..
On 1 Jun 2004 17:53:03 -0700, (Detector195)
wrote:

(Sam Byrams) wrote in message . com...
For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

You'd be liable to die suddenly too if someone shot half a pint of
pure Nembutal up your rear end. As far as fat and slow-see the
swimming pool scene from her last film, which AMC paid (a bundle) to
build out as far as they could from what footage there is. At 36, she
was the ultimate naked, wet, and slightly cold (obviously!) female.
Back then, guys who wanted 'hardbodies' would be referred to the NFL.


Well, I can say one thing. MDF is a disaster waiting to happen with
portable speakers -- it swells up when it gets rained on. I always got
satisfactory results with homemade cabs when I used the regular 3/4
birch plywood from Home Depot, though I felt compelled to steer around
the voids.

Agreed, and marine plywood is even more impervious to abuse,
especially if heavily varnished.

Marine ply is the way to go, unless you fill the voids with
something, which is more time than it's worth. Corian is available in
sizes needed by amateur speaker builders as off-fall, and to
professional companies under license: I've never had a problem
sourcing it with cash in hand.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message . ..
On 1 Jun 2004 17:53:03 -0700, (Detector195)
wrote:

(Sam Byrams) wrote in message . com...
For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

You'd be liable to die suddenly too if someone shot half a pint of
pure Nembutal up your rear end. As far as fat and slow-see the
swimming pool scene from her last film, which AMC paid (a bundle) to
build out as far as they could from what footage there is. At 36, she
was the ultimate naked, wet, and slightly cold (obviously!) female.
Back then, guys who wanted 'hardbodies' would be referred to the NFL.


Well, I can say one thing. MDF is a disaster waiting to happen with
portable speakers -- it swells up when it gets rained on. I always got
satisfactory results with homemade cabs when I used the regular 3/4
birch plywood from Home Depot, though I felt compelled to steer around
the voids.

Agreed, and marine plywood is even more impervious to abuse,
especially if heavily varnished.

Marine ply is the way to go, unless you fill the voids with
something, which is more time than it's worth. Corian is available in
sizes needed by amateur speaker builders as off-fall, and to
professional companies under license: I've never had a problem
sourcing it with cash in hand.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message . ..
On 1 Jun 2004 17:53:03 -0700, (Detector195)
wrote:

(Sam Byrams) wrote in message . com...
For whatever reason, MDF is actually not a good sounding speaker
material and cabs from multi-ply laminated wood, such as piano pin
block stock, offer many of the theoretical benefits of MDF while
providing better mechanical ruggedness, repairability, appearance and
they "seem to sound better"-no A/B/X proof, just seems to. Maybe it's
my imagination.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

You'd be liable to die suddenly too if someone shot half a pint of
pure Nembutal up your rear end. As far as fat and slow-see the
swimming pool scene from her last film, which AMC paid (a bundle) to
build out as far as they could from what footage there is. At 36, she
was the ultimate naked, wet, and slightly cold (obviously!) female.
Back then, guys who wanted 'hardbodies' would be referred to the NFL.


Well, I can say one thing. MDF is a disaster waiting to happen with
portable speakers -- it swells up when it gets rained on. I always got
satisfactory results with homemade cabs when I used the regular 3/4
birch plywood from Home Depot, though I felt compelled to steer around
the voids.

Agreed, and marine plywood is even more impervious to abuse,
especially if heavily varnished.

Marine ply is the way to go, unless you fill the voids with
something, which is more time than it's worth. Corian is available in
sizes needed by amateur speaker builders as off-fall, and to
professional companies under license: I've never had a problem
sourcing it with cash in hand.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

You'd be liable to die suddenly too if someone shot half a pint of
pure Nembutal up your rear end. As far as fat and slow-see the
swimming pool scene from her last film, which AMC paid (a bundle) to
build out as far as they could from what footage there is. At 36, she
was the ultimate naked, wet, and slightly cold (obviously!) female.
Back then, guys who wanted 'hardbodies' would be referred to the NFL.

The recent Robert Blake case brings up an interesting angle on this
supposed mystery.

Monroe was basically an "attack vagina". She ****ed and wheedled her
way into expensive and painful acts of matrimony with famous and
status-bearing men-first a not-real-bright ballplayer and then the
all-too-bright playwright-and she figured this would get her in the
White House as well. The Kennedys, particularly Bobby, figured this
out too late and with the Russians putting nuclear missiles ninety
miles from Miami, couldn't afford what might explode into a big
domestic scandal. (The Keeler-Profumo scandal in England less than a
year later would prove those inclinations right.) So after trying to
reason with this disturbed individual proved ineffective, the decision
was made-Bobby made the call, I'm sure, Jack wouldn't have had the
heart, or the balls-she had to go.

My guess is it was an FBI agent-the Bureau was full of the G.Gordon
Liddy types that would have done it then-that actually did the deed.

Did Bobby do right? Well, we're here to read this now. Nuclear war in
1962 might or might not have wiped out the species, but even if
America survived-and I think that in substantial part it would have-we
still wouldn't be back up to 1962 technological and economic
standards.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

You'd be liable to die suddenly too if someone shot half a pint of
pure Nembutal up your rear end. As far as fat and slow-see the
swimming pool scene from her last film, which AMC paid (a bundle) to
build out as far as they could from what footage there is. At 36, she
was the ultimate naked, wet, and slightly cold (obviously!) female.
Back then, guys who wanted 'hardbodies' would be referred to the NFL.

The recent Robert Blake case brings up an interesting angle on this
supposed mystery.

Monroe was basically an "attack vagina". She ****ed and wheedled her
way into expensive and painful acts of matrimony with famous and
status-bearing men-first a not-real-bright ballplayer and then the
all-too-bright playwright-and she figured this would get her in the
White House as well. The Kennedys, particularly Bobby, figured this
out too late and with the Russians putting nuclear missiles ninety
miles from Miami, couldn't afford what might explode into a big
domestic scandal. (The Keeler-Profumo scandal in England less than a
year later would prove those inclinations right.) So after trying to
reason with this disturbed individual proved ineffective, the decision
was made-Bobby made the call, I'm sure, Jack wouldn't have had the
heart, or the balls-she had to go.

My guess is it was an FBI agent-the Bureau was full of the G.Gordon
Liddy types that would have done it then-that actually did the deed.

Did Bobby do right? Well, we're here to read this now. Nuclear war in
1962 might or might not have wiped out the species, but even if
America survived-and I think that in substantial part it would have-we
still wouldn't be back up to 1962 technological and economic
standards.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

You'd be liable to die suddenly too if someone shot half a pint of
pure Nembutal up your rear end. As far as fat and slow-see the
swimming pool scene from her last film, which AMC paid (a bundle) to
build out as far as they could from what footage there is. At 36, she
was the ultimate naked, wet, and slightly cold (obviously!) female.
Back then, guys who wanted 'hardbodies' would be referred to the NFL.

The recent Robert Blake case brings up an interesting angle on this
supposed mystery.

Monroe was basically an "attack vagina". She ****ed and wheedled her
way into expensive and painful acts of matrimony with famous and
status-bearing men-first a not-real-bright ballplayer and then the
all-too-bright playwright-and she figured this would get her in the
White House as well. The Kennedys, particularly Bobby, figured this
out too late and with the Russians putting nuclear missiles ninety
miles from Miami, couldn't afford what might explode into a big
domestic scandal. (The Keeler-Profumo scandal in England less than a
year later would prove those inclinations right.) So after trying to
reason with this disturbed individual proved ineffective, the decision
was made-Bobby made the call, I'm sure, Jack wouldn't have had the
heart, or the balls-she had to go.

My guess is it was an FBI agent-the Bureau was full of the G.Gordon
Liddy types that would have done it then-that actually did the deed.

Did Bobby do right? Well, we're here to read this now. Nuclear war in
1962 might or might not have wiped out the species, but even if
America survived-and I think that in substantial part it would have-we
still wouldn't be back up to 1962 technological and economic
standards.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

No, glitzy, flashy but completely lacking in depth and substance.



The Altec is a real speaker with a 15" cone and some real build cost,
not like the stuff they sell at Madisound. We have this fantasy today
you can build a really first-rate speaker out of small drivers and
inexpensive crossovers, and while some of the "Speaker
Builder(magazine)mentality projects" sound pretty good for the cost,
and the high end stores sell very expensive versions of these same
products with little improvement, that doesn't make them the equal of
classic Altec and Lansing and a few other designs that cost a lot of
money to build.

The history of technology is that the new one almost always costs
less to build than the old one. If there is a total improvement, well
and fine, but more often it's a tradeoff-this for that. A 2004 car has
better engine management systems than a 1964 car, but the foundry work
on the block and heads was invariably better on the 1964 model. Most
of today's engines are not intended to be rebuilt and have very thin
castings.

Unlike ham radio, a dying hobby of cheapskates, audio people are all
too willing to spend money. You can buy $10,000 vacuum tube amps built
with the techniques used on $799 guitar amps, and not very much more
build cost. If you are going to spend all that money, there should be
some build cost-an Audio Research or c-j tube amp ought to be built as
well as a Vollum-era Tek scope. Are they? Are the output transformers
as good as UTC or Peerless? Look at the Thiel speakers, most of which
look inside as though they might have been built out of a Speaker
Builder article by a former pro home cabinetmaker or guitar
builder.(Because they could have been.) Then there's the Linn Sondek
turntable, almost as good as the last Merrill-upgraded AR's.

You are, however, entitled to your own opinion on MM. There's no
accounting for taste, but to me, her Rose Loomis in Niagara-you're
glad to see her strangled dead-Ava Gardner couldn't have done better.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

No, glitzy, flashy but completely lacking in depth and substance.



The Altec is a real speaker with a 15" cone and some real build cost,
not like the stuff they sell at Madisound. We have this fantasy today
you can build a really first-rate speaker out of small drivers and
inexpensive crossovers, and while some of the "Speaker
Builder(magazine)mentality projects" sound pretty good for the cost,
and the high end stores sell very expensive versions of these same
products with little improvement, that doesn't make them the equal of
classic Altec and Lansing and a few other designs that cost a lot of
money to build.

The history of technology is that the new one almost always costs
less to build than the old one. If there is a total improvement, well
and fine, but more often it's a tradeoff-this for that. A 2004 car has
better engine management systems than a 1964 car, but the foundry work
on the block and heads was invariably better on the 1964 model. Most
of today's engines are not intended to be rebuilt and have very thin
castings.

Unlike ham radio, a dying hobby of cheapskates, audio people are all
too willing to spend money. You can buy $10,000 vacuum tube amps built
with the techniques used on $799 guitar amps, and not very much more
build cost. If you are going to spend all that money, there should be
some build cost-an Audio Research or c-j tube amp ought to be built as
well as a Vollum-era Tek scope. Are they? Are the output transformers
as good as UTC or Peerless? Look at the Thiel speakers, most of which
look inside as though they might have been built out of a Speaker
Builder article by a former pro home cabinetmaker or guitar
builder.(Because they could have been.) Then there's the Linn Sondek
turntable, almost as good as the last Merrill-upgraded AR's.

You are, however, entitled to your own opinion on MM. There's no
accounting for taste, but to me, her Rose Loomis in Niagara-you're
glad to see her strangled dead-Ava Gardner couldn't have done better.

duPont Corian is a cool and underutilized material as well. The
Japanese use it in some of their nifty, but too heavy to
cost-effectively import, cabs for classic coax drivers such as the
Altec 604, which I consider to be the "Marilyn Monroe of speakers".

What, you mean fat, slow and liable to die suddenly? :-)

No, glitzy, flashy but completely lacking in depth and substance.



The Altec is a real speaker with a 15" cone and some real build cost,
not like the stuff they sell at Madisound. We have this fantasy today
you can build a really first-rate speaker out of small drivers and
inexpensive crossovers, and while some of the "Speaker
Builder(magazine)mentality projects" sound pretty good for the cost,
and the high end stores sell very expensive versions of these same
products with little improvement, that doesn't make them the equal of
classic Altec and Lansing and a few other designs that cost a lot of
money to build.

The history of technology is that the new one almost always costs
less to build than the old one. If there is a total improvement, well
and fine, but more often it's a tradeoff-this for that. A 2004 car has
better engine management systems than a 1964 car, but the foundry work
on the block and heads was invariably better on the 1964 model. Most
of today's engines are not intended to be rebuilt and have very thin
castings.

Unlike ham radio, a dying hobby of cheapskates, audio people are all
too willing to spend money. You can buy $10,000 vacuum tube amps built
with the techniques used on $799 guitar amps, and not very much more
build cost. If you are going to spend all that money, there should be
some build cost-an Audio Research or c-j tube amp ought to be built as
well as a Vollum-era Tek scope. Are they? Are the output transformers
as good as UTC or Peerless? Look at the Thiel speakers, most of which
look inside as though they might have been built out of a Speaker
Builder article by a former pro home cabinetmaker or guitar
builder.(Because they could have been.) Then there's the Linn Sondek
turntable, almost as good as the last Merrill-upgraded AR's.

You are, however, entitled to your own opinion on MM. There's no
accounting for taste, but to me, her Rose Loomis in Niagara-you're
glad to see her strangled dead-Ava Gardner couldn't have done better.