[Ferstler]

On Dec 24 2009, 5:35*pm, MiNe 109
wrote:
In article
,
*John Atkinson wrote:

On Dec 24, 1:28*pm, George M. Middius
wrote:
'Twas the night before Kroodown, and all 'round Goose Puke...

An oldie but goldie, George. But the foe seems long gone,
if not into that dark night, at least somewhere else.

But Harold Ferstler has reemerged, writing equipment
reports for AudioXpress under the title "Reliable Reviews."

He's beating the same old drum, with ossified thoughts about level
matching, pink noise and even that Villchur live-vs-recorded string
quartet demo.

"Reliable." Gotta give him that!

Stephen

Yo, Stephen. Interesting to see that after me being away for months
and months you still have not found anything better to do with your
life than make smart-assed remarks about me on RAO. Yeah, I am
reliable, and I am also correct.

It is interesting that you found a relatively straightforward article
on setting up speaker levels for intelligent comparison work so "old
drum" in concept. How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
conclusions?

As for the Villchur demos, well, you have not a clue what you are
talking about.

Howard Ferstler

[MiNe 109]

In article
,
Ferstler wrote:

On Dec 24 2009, 5:35*pm, MiNe 109
wrote:
In article
,
*John Atkinson wrote:

On Dec 24, 1:28*pm, George M. Middius
wrote:
'Twas the night before Kroodown, and all 'round Goose Puke...

An oldie but goldie, George. But the foe seems long gone,
if not into that dark night, at least somewhere else.

But Harold Ferstler has reemerged, writing equipment
reports for AudioXpress under the title "Reliable Reviews."

He's beating the same old drum, with ossified thoughts about level
matching, pink noise and even that Villchur live-vs-recorded string
quartet demo.

"Reliable." Gotta give him that!

Stephen

Yo, Stephen. Interesting to see that after me being away for months
and months you still have not found anything better to do with your
life than make smart-assed remarks about me on RAO. Yeah, I am
reliable, and I am also correct.

I made a bunch of other comments that hardly mentioned you at all.

It is interesting that you found a relatively straightforward article
on setting up speaker levels for intelligent comparison work so "old
drum" in concept. How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
conclusions?

As for the Villchur demos, well, you have not a clue what you are
talking about.

That would be a failure of your powers of description if you really
think so.

Stephen

[MiNe 109]

In article
,
Ferstler wrote:

How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
conclusions?

I don't churn my equipment. In my main system I'm happy with my Quads.
In the tv systems the differences are large enough that level-matching,
etc is too much trouble.

Stephen

[Ferstler]

On Jan 7, 4:11*pm, MiNe 109 wrote:
In article
,





*Ferstler wrote:
On Dec 24 2009, 5:35*pm, MiNe 109 *
wrote:
In article
,
*John Atkinson wrote:

On Dec 24, 1:28*pm, George M. Middius
wrote:
'Twas the night before Kroodown, and all 'round Goose Puke...

An oldie but goldie, George. But the foe seems long gone,
if not into that dark night, at least somewhere else.

But Harold Ferstler has reemerged, writing equipment
reports for AudioXpress under the title "Reliable Reviews."

He's beating the same old drum, with ossified thoughts about level
matching, pink noise and even that Villchur live-vs-recorded string
quartet demo.

"Reliable." Gotta give him that!

Stephen

Yo, Stephen. Interesting to see that after me being away for months
and months you still have not found anything better to do with your
life than make smart-assed remarks about me on RAO. Yeah, I am
reliable, and I am also correct.

I made a bunch of other comments that hardly mentioned you at all.

It is interesting that you found a relatively straightforward article
on setting up speaker levels for intelligent comparison work so "old
drum" in concept. How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
conclusions?

As for the Villchur demos, well, you have not a clue what you are
talking about.

That would be a failure of your powers of description if you really
think so.

Stephen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are a paradigm of the modern audio expert and enthusiast. I'll bet
you have never done a refined comparison between speakers or between
amps in your life.

Howard Ferstler

[Ferstler]

On Jan 7, 4:13*pm, MiNe 109 wrote:
In article
,

*Ferstler wrote:
How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
conclusions?

I don't churn my equipment. In my main system I'm happy with my Quads.
In the tv systems the differences are large enough that level-matching,
etc is too much trouble.

Stephen

Too much trouble?. Yep, you are a paradigm of the ignorance is bliss
audio buff.

Howard Ferstler

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
,
Ferstler wrote:

On Jan 7, 4:11*pm, MiNe 109 wrote:
In article
,





*Ferstler wrote:
On Dec 24 2009, 5:35*pm, MiNe 109 *
wrote:
In article
,
*John Atkinson wrote:

On Dec 24, 1:28*pm, George M. Middius
wrote:
'Twas the night before Kroodown, and all 'round Goose Puke...

An oldie but goldie, George. But the foe seems long gone,
if not into that dark night, at least somewhere else.

But Harold Ferstler has reemerged, writing equipment
reports for AudioXpress under the title "Reliable Reviews."

He's beating the same old drum, with ossified thoughts about level
matching, pink noise and even that Villchur live-vs-recorded string
quartet demo.

"Reliable." Gotta give him that!

Stephen

Yo, Stephen. Interesting to see that after me being away for months
and months you still have not found anything better to do with your
life than make smart-assed remarks about me on RAO. Yeah, I am
reliable, and I am also correct.

I made a bunch of other comments that hardly mentioned you at all.

It is interesting that you found a relatively straightforward article
on setting up speaker levels for intelligent comparison work so "old
drum" in concept. How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
conclusions?

As for the Villchur demos, well, you have not a clue what you are
talking about.

That would be a failure of your powers of description if you really
think so.

Stephen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are a paradigm of the modern audio expert and enthusiast. I'll bet
you have never done a refined comparison between speakers or between
amps in your life.

Here's a clue, Howard: Most people who like listening to their audio
systems and to music haven't, never will, and don't care to.

[Boon[_2_]]

On Jan 7, 3:55*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,





*Ferstler wrote:
On Jan 7, 4:11 pm, MiNe 109 * wrote:
In article
,

Ferstler wrote:
On Dec 24 2009, 5:35 pm, MiNe 109
wrote:
In article
,
John Atkinson wrote:

On Dec 24, 1:28 pm, George M. Middius
wrote:
'Twas the night before Kroodown, and all 'round Goose Puke...

An oldie but goldie, George. But the foe seems long gone,
if not into that dark night, at least somewhere else.

But Harold Ferstler has reemerged, writing equipment
reports for AudioXpress under the title "Reliable Reviews."

He's beating the same old drum, with ossified thoughts about level
matching, pink noise and even that Villchur live-vs-recorded string
quartet demo.

"Reliable." Gotta give him that!

Stephen

Yo, Stephen. Interesting to see that after me being away for months
and months you still have not found anything better to do with your
life than make smart-assed remarks about me on RAO. Yeah, I am
reliable, and I am also correct.

I made a bunch of other comments that hardly mentioned you at all.

It is interesting that you found a relatively straightforward article
on setting up speaker levels for intelligent comparison work so "old
drum" in concept. How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
conclusions?

As for the Villchur demos, well, you have not a clue what you are
talking about.

That would be a failure of your powers of description if you really
think so.

Stephen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are a paradigm of the modern audio expert and enthusiast. I'll bet
you have never done a refined comparison between speakers or between
amps in your life.

Here's a clue, Howard: *Most people who like listening to their audio
systems and to music haven't, never will, and don't care to.

Amen.

[MiNe 109]

In article
,
Ferstler wrote:

On Jan 7, 4:11*pm, MiNe 109 wrote:
In article
,





*Ferstler wrote:
On Dec 24 2009, 5:35*pm, MiNe 109 *
wrote:
In article
,
*John Atkinson wrote:

On Dec 24, 1:28*pm, George M. Middius
wrote:
'Twas the night before Kroodown, and all 'round Goose Puke...

An oldie but goldie, George. But the foe seems long gone,
if not into that dark night, at least somewhere else.

But Harold Ferstler has reemerged, writing equipment
reports for AudioXpress under the title "Reliable Reviews."

He's beating the same old drum, with ossified thoughts about level
matching, pink noise and even that Villchur live-vs-recorded string
quartet demo.

"Reliable." Gotta give him that!

Stephen

Yo, Stephen. Interesting to see that after me being away for months
and months you still have not found anything better to do with your
life than make smart-assed remarks about me on RAO. Yeah, I am
reliable, and I am also correct.

I made a bunch of other comments that hardly mentioned you at all.

It is interesting that you found a relatively straightforward article
on setting up speaker levels for intelligent comparison work so "old
drum" in concept. How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
conclusions?

As for the Villchur demos, well, you have not a clue what you are
talking about.

That would be a failure of your powers of description if you really
think so.

Stephen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are a paradigm of the modern audio expert and enthusiast. I'll bet
you have never done a refined comparison between speakers or between
amps in your life.

If by that you mean I've never tried to guess if a string quartet in a
train station is miming or not, you're right.

Stephen

[MiNe 109]

In article
,
Ferstler wrote:

On Jan 7, 4:13*pm, MiNe 109 wrote:
In article
,

*Ferstler wrote:
How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
conclusions?

I don't churn my equipment. In my main system I'm happy with my Quads.
In the tv systems the differences are large enough that level-matching,
etc is too much trouble.

Stephen

Too much trouble?. Yep, you are a paradigm of the ignorance is bliss
audio buff.

It's like Scottie with a new word.

Stephen

[Ferstler]

On Jan 7, 4:55*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article

Here's a clue, Howard: *Most people who like listening to their audio
systems and to music haven't, never will, and don't care to.

Good point, at least as it relates to people like you. This is one
reason (not the only one, but at least one of the reasons) the hobby
has declined into the muddle it is today. There are two kinds of
primary embracers of the hobby as it now exists.

(1) The kind who go to Best Buy with a small budget, buy some packaged
gear, take it home and enjoy it in blissful ignorance. I actually
admire people like that.

(2) The kind who go to an audio salon with big bucks in hand and
purchase items that look good, sound maybe decent, and which were
possibly praised in some lunatic-fringe magazine report. For people
like this, audio is almost a religious experience that demands as
little rational behavior as possible.

Neither (1) nor (2) has any interest in understanding just why the
gear they have is good (or possibly not so good), with the underlying
motivation based upon blissful ignorance.The first group has many
other things on their minds than audio, and their lack of interest in
the details is actually quite normal. Sometimes blissful ignorance is
a good thing.

On the other hand, the second group continues to baffle me, because so
many of them spend large percentages of their respective net worths on
audio gear, and yet do not take the time to analyze whether or not
their cash outlays (or credit charges) are paying off in absolute
terms. No doubt, they are paying off in terms related to wishful
thinking and speculation, of course, but is that something that is
healthy for anyone? Is it normal for a person who is seriously
interested in a hobby to willfully be ignorant of some of the more
basic concepts around that hobby, or be lacking in any kind of
interest that involves knowing instead of believing? Audio is the only
hobby I know of where many of those supposedly interested in it are
not interested in digging any deeper into the details than what
speculation offers. If that is not the very definition of religion, I
do not know what else is. It is the only hobby I know of where so many
enthusiasts are utterly uninterested in basic epistemology.

Today, most so-called audio enthusiasts are paradigm know-nothings.
Perhaps 20 percent of them are on the ball and aware of the issues and
how to resolve them. The remaining 80 percent are jerks.

And for now I leave you jerks to your various tempests in teapots. I
may drop back in one of these days to again marvel that the same
people continue to rant, rave, and carp by banging on their keyboards.

Howard Ferstler

[Ferstler]

On Jan 7, 4:55*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,

Here's a clue, Howard: *Most people who like listening to their audio
systems and to music haven't, never will, and don't care to.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good point, at least as it relates to people like you. This is one
reason (not the only one, but at least one of the reasons) the hobby
has declined into the muddle it is today. There are two kinds of
primary embracers of the hobby as it now exists.

(1) The kind who go to Best Buy with a small budget, buy some packaged
gear, take it home and enjoy it in blissful ignorance. I actually
admire people like that.

(2) The kind who go to an audio salon with big bucks in hand and
purchase items that look good, sound maybe decent, and which were
possibly praised in some lunatic-fringe magazine report. For people
like this, audio is almost a religious experience that demands as
little rational behavior as possible.

Neither (1) nor (2) has any interest in understanding just why the
gear they have is good (or possibly not so good), with the underlying
motivation based upon blissful ignorance.The first group has many
other things on their minds than audio, and their lack of interest in
the details is actually quite normal. Sometimes blissful ignorance is
a good thing.

On the other hand, the second group continues to baffle me, because so
many of them spend large percentages of their respective net worths on
audio gear, and yet do not take the time to analyze whether or not
their cash outlays (or credit charges) are paying off in absolute
terms. No doubt, they are paying off in terms related to wishful
thinking and speculation, of course, but is that something that is
healthy for anyone? Is it normal for a person who is seriously
interested in a hobby to willfully be ignorant of some of the more
basic concepts around that hobby, or be lacking in any kind of
interest that involves knowing instead of believing? Audio is the only
hobby I know of where many of those supposedly interested in it are
not interested in digging any deeper into the details than what
speculation offers. If that is not the very definition of religion, I
do not know what else is. It is the only hobby I know of where so many
enthusiasts are utterly uninterested in basic epistemology.

Today, most so-called audio enthusiasts are paradigm know-nothings.
Perhaps 20 percent of them are on the ball and aware of the issues and
how to resolve them. The remaining 80 percent are jerks.

And for now I leave you jerks to your various tempests in teapots. I
may drop back in one of these days to again marvel that the same
people continue to rant, rave, and carp by banging on their keyboards.

Howard Ferstler

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
,
Ferstler wrote:

On Jan 7, 4:55*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article

Here's a clue, Howard: *Most people who like listening to their audio
systems and to music haven't, never will, and don't care to.

Good point, at least as it relates to people like you.

I think that it's true for the large set of people who listen to music
through their home audio systems. I would even say that it's true for
the smaller set of people who listen "seriously" at home through systems
in which they have a fairly substantial investment.

This is one
reason (not the only one, but at least one of the reasons) the hobby
has declined into the muddle it is today.

Possibly. There are obviously several reasons that the hobby "ain't
what it used to be". The economy, expanded opportunities for home
entertainment, some stupid voodoo products that are a waste of money,
and of course, the iPod generation demanding instant music on the go,
very often stolen by illegal downloading.


And for now I leave you jerks

For this third time this morning..

[Clyde Slick]

On Jan 7, 4:47*pm, Ferstler wrote:
On Jan 7, 4:11*pm, MiNe 109 * wrote:



In article
,

*Ferstler wrote:
On Dec 24 2009, 5:35*pm, MiNe 109 *
wrote:
In article
,
*John Atkinson wrote:

On Dec 24, 1:28*pm, George M. Middius
wrote:
'Twas the night before Kroodown, and all 'round Goose Puke...

An oldie but goldie, George. But the foe seems long gone,
if not into that dark night, at least somewhere else.

But Harold Ferstler has reemerged, writing equipment
reports for AudioXpress under the title "Reliable Reviews."

He's beating the same old drum, with ossified thoughts about level
matching, pink noise and even that Villchur live-vs-recorded string
quartet demo.

"Reliable." Gotta give him that!

Stephen

Yo, Stephen. Interesting to see that after me being away for months
and months you still have not found anything better to do with your
life than make smart-assed remarks about me on RAO. Yeah, I am
reliable, and I am also correct.

I made a bunch of other comments that hardly mentioned you at all.

It is interesting that you found a relatively straightforward article
on setting up speaker levels for intelligent comparison work so "old
drum" in concept. How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
conclusions?

As for the Villchur demos, well, you have not a clue what you are
talking about.

That would be a failure of your powers of description if you really
think so.

Stephen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are a paradigm of the modern audio expert and enthusiast. I'll bet
you have never done a refined comparison between speakers or between
amps in your life.

Howard Ferstler


I did one, that is one more than you did

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jan 24, 2:30*am, olgeezer wrote:
On Jan 7, 1:55*pm, Jenn wrote:





In article
,

*Ferstler wrote:
On Jan 7, 4:11*pm, MiNe 109 * wrote:
In article
,

*Ferstler wrote:
On Dec 24 2009, 5:35*pm, MiNe 109 *
wrote:
In article
,
*John Atkinson wrote:

On Dec 24, 1:28*pm, George M. Middius
wrote:
'Twas the night before Kroodown, and all 'round Goose Puke....

An oldie but goldie, George. But the foe seems long gone,
if not into that dark night, at least somewhere else.

But Harold Ferstler has reemerged, writing equipment
reports for AudioXpress under the title "Reliable Reviews."

He's beating the same old drum, with ossified thoughts about level
matching, pink noise and even that Villchur live-vs-recorded string
quartet demo.

"Reliable." Gotta give him that!

Stephen

Yo, Stephen. Interesting to see that after me being away for months
and months you still have not found anything better to do with your
life than make smart-assed remarks about me on RAO. Yeah, I am
reliable, and I am also correct.

I made a bunch of other comments that hardly mentioned you at all.

It is interesting that you found a relatively straightforward article
on setting up speaker levels for intelligent comparison work so "old
drum" in concept. How do you compare speakers, bucko? Do you bother to
level match at all, or do you just guesstimate and then revel in your
conclusions?

As for the Villchur demos, well, you have not a clue what you are
talking about.

That would be a failure of your powers of description if you really
think so.

Stephen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are a paradigm of the modern audio expert and enthusiast. I'll bet
you have never done a refined comparison between speakers or between
amps in your life.

Here's a clue, Howard: *Most people who like listening to their audio
systems and to music haven't, never will, and don't care to.

It is fortunate that the state of audio electronics is such that it
hardly matters which amp one buys. *Loudspeakers are another subject
altogether and in most instances differences are obvious. *They are
and will continue to be the biggest flaw in any audio system.

The "audio system" I see in most people's homes these days consists of
an iPod and a docking station. Most people also do not listen to music
on their home theaters. They watch movies.

The majority of those who actually do have and enjoy audio systems get
ridiculed by those who can't afford them for not running scientific
tests to prove that they really like what they like.

Isn't that a stupid situation?

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
,
"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote:

The "audio system" I see in most people's homes these days consists of
an iPod and a docking station.

One of our contributors recently said (on another forum) that his mp3
player and Sony MDR-EX85 earbuds "provides sound competetive with any
hi-end system the industry can offer." That's an interesting statement,
I think.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article
,
ScottW wrote:

On Jan 24, 11:03*am, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
*"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote:

The "audio system" I see in most people's homes these days consists of
an iPod and a docking station.

One of our contributors recently said (on another forum) that his mp3
player and Sony MDR-EX85 earbuds "provides sound competetive with any
hi-end system the industry can offer." *That's an interesting statement,
I think.

The cost of a soundstage between your ears and one recreated in a
room
has always been orders of magnitude different in cost.
Most the current technical challenges of high end sound in a listening
room become
moot with earbuds/headphones.

Unless, of course:
1. You don't want to listen with headphones
2. You are concerned with other aspects of home audio than just
soundstage.


Power requirements for live SPL levels are a small fraction of those
required
for a room. Room interactions are eliminated.
Multi-driver crossovers....gone.
Full range low distortion drivers from subsonic to supersonic
frequencies, no problem.

Really? You can get true bass with earbuds?


Only drawback is the discomfort of headphones/earbuds and the sound
field between the ears.
Every other objective measure of performance can be relatively cheaply
exceeded (unless you really want to feel the bass as well as hear it)
with
a personal listening system over the typical high end system.

Nothing really new here. The "high-end" doesn't offer performance
improvement to many youngsters who grow up accustomed to the drawbacks
of personal listening devices.
From their perspective a typical box speaker system can't give them
the sound quality they already have at a fraction of the cost.

I would agree with that, given what their experience is of a "typical
box speaker."

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jan 24, 1:52*pm, ScottW wrote:

Only drawback is the discomfort of headphones/earbuds and the sound
field between the ears.
Every other objective measure of performance can be relatively cheaply
exceeded (unless you really want to feel the bass as well as hear it)
with
a personal listening system over the typical high end system.

Do you feel anything when you see a live performance? I know I do.

[Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!]

On Jan 25, 3:15*pm, ScottW wrote:
On Jan 24, 10:38*pm, Jenn wrote:





In article
,

*ScottW wrote:
On Jan 24, 11:03*am, Jenn wrote:
In article
,
*"Shhhh! I'm Listening to Reason!" wrote:

The "audio system" I see in most people's homes these days consists of
an iPod and a docking station.

One of our contributors recently said (on another forum) that his mp3
player and Sony MDR-EX85 earbuds "provides sound competetive with any
hi-end system the industry can offer." *That's an interesting statement,
I think.

*The cost of a soundstage between your ears and one recreated in a
room
has always been orders of magnitude different in cost.
Most the current technical challenges of high end sound in a listening
room become
moot with earbuds/headphones.

Unless, of course:
1. *You don't want to listen with headphones

* Then you'll have to pay lots more.

2. *You are concerned with other aspects of home audio than just
soundstage.

*You misinterpret. *Every audio reproduction (re)creates a soundstage..
The quality aspects of that soundstage in personal listening systems
typically exceed in almost any measure you can provide the quality of
sound measured from speakers.
FR (both flatness and range), distortion, dynamic range, peak SPL,
phase errors etc etc.



Power requirements for live SPL levels are a small fraction of those
required
for a room. Room interactions are eliminated.
Multi-driver crossovers....gone.
Full range low distortion drivers from subsonic to supersonic
frequencies, no problem.

Really? *You can get true bass with earbuds?

*I dont' know what "true" bass means to you. *My earbuds provide clear
solid output below my low hearing limit. *They won't shake my gut if
that's "true bass" (which more often than not is a room mode rather
than reproduction of a musical event) but they will reproduce clearly
and effortlessly the organ on Rutter's Requiem.
I've read some of those notes are sub 20 hz.







Only drawback is the discomfort of headphones/earbuds and the sound
field between the ears.
Every other objective measure of performance can be relatively cheaply
exceeded (unless you really want to feel the bass as well as hear it)
with
a personal listening system over the typical high end system.

Nothing really new here. The "high-end" doesn't offer performance
improvement to many youngsters who grow up accustomed to the drawbacks
of personal listening devices.
From their perspective a typical box speaker system can't give them
the sound quality they already have at a fraction of the cost.

I would agree with that, given what their experience is of a "typical
box speaker."

* Go buy the Sansa clip or any other non-defective player (some
earlier Sansa efforts were defective in design) and some decent
earbuds. You might be surprised how exceptionally good the sound
really is and you don't have to spend a lot to get it. *As I said...
$100 will do.

My only real point is that claiming that kids today aren't exposed to
hi-fidelity reproduction of music because they haven't been exposed to
"high-end" equipment
is BS. * Most are experiencing music reproduction of far higher
fidelity than you seem to be aware of and is perhaps higher fidelity
than what you have experienced.

LoL.

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