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#1
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Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10
where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you actually really need to do! Here's what happened... 1. I read this post about an hour or so ago on the a.c.f newsgroup: o The nice thing about Audacity https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/S1IXPT3xk7g Which says this one line: "It can record the music from a youtube live stream." 2. Being infinitely curious about all tool functionality, I tried Audacity but failed even after reading a dozen web tutorials. 3. In the end, Audacity worked - but the point I'm making is that absolutely NONE of the tutorials explained the _necessary_ missing step (which is apparently required only on newer versions of Windows 10 as explained below). NOTE: If you're NOT on the later versions of Windows 10, most of the tutorials "should" work; but this is an example where they don't. === below is my ad hoc log just now attempting to do this === a. Googling for tutorials, here what I try (all failed), in sequence: https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch001137.htm https://www.aimersoft.com/record-music/audacity-youtube.html https://www.labnol.org/software/record-streaming-audio/5000/ https://audacityguide.com/audacity-records-computer-audio https://audacity.wonderhowto.com/how-to/record-streaming-audio-from-internet-with-audacity-296750/ https://www.online-tech-tips.com/computer-tips/how-to-capture-save-record-or-download-streaming-audio-for-free/ https://www.widsmob.com/tips/capture-youtube-audio.html (worthless) https://www.easeus.com/screen-recording-tips/record-youtube-audio.html https://davescomputertips.com/how-to-record-internet-audio-with-audacity/ Note: Not only do they all omit important information, they conflict. This is the key reason why most tutorials suck. b. Find a short YouTube test video to record the audio stream of. o Bill Gates Remembers Richard Feynman - Bill Gates - 5/11/2018 https://youtu.be/HotLmqYFKKg Test that you "can" download just the M4A audio from that URL: youtube-dl.exe -f 140 https://youtu.be/HotLmqYFKKg [youtube] HotLmqYFKKg: Downloading webpage [youtube] HotLmqYFKKg: Downloading MPD manifest [dashsegments] Total fragments: 15 [download] Destination: Bill Gates Remembers Richard Feynman - Bill Gates - 5_11_2018-HotLmqYFKKg.m4a [download] 100% of 2.08MiB in 01:57 [ffmpeg] Correcting container in "Bill Gates Remembers Richard Feynman - Bill Gates - 5_11_2018-HotLmqYFKKg.m4a" move "Bill Gates Remembers Richard Feynman - Bill Gates - 5_11_2018-HotLmqYFKKg.m4a" gates_feynman.m4a Name: gates_feynman.m4a Size: 2174708 bytes (2123 KiB) SHA256: 748707B94311B10B19E45EAB99DEE3495E36BC91BDA062B3C5 02DDF1AD1B720B Doubleclick on the audio to ensure it plays (VLC, MPC-BE, WMP, whatever). c. Install Audacity from the canonical site only (caveat emptor): https://sourceforge.net/projects/audacity/ https://www.audacityteam.org/ https://www.audacityteam.org/download/ https://www.audacityteam.org/download/windows/ https://www.fosshub.com/Audacity.html https://download.fosshub.com/gibberish/audacity-2.4.2.zip Save to X:\archive\editor\audio\audacity\audacity-2.4.2.zip Name: audacity-2.4.2.zip Size: 11713880 bytes (11 MiB) SHA256: 0C14F7C6850C93B9DACC14FE66876B8DC3397D92DBD8498987 83A21BAD1FFF55 Extract to c:\app\editor\audio\audacity\{...files...} Name: audacity.exe Size: 12676096 bytes (12 MiB) SHA256: 02239A8C897496BA9F03AC967AF2CA5A03221BE83D8E733909 7EDBFFC2B96E37 Compare hash with that on the web site: https://www.audacityteam.org/download/online-safety-when-downloading/#validate Create a shortcut: FILESPEC c:\menu\editor\audio\audacity.lnk TARGET C:\app\editor\audio\audacity\audacity.exe STARTIN %appdata%\0 (which doesn't exist) COMMENT Audacity d. Do we still need to install LAME and/or FFMPEG separately? I don't know. This just loops back to the Audacity web site: https://sourceforge.net/projects/audacity/?s=install&i=lame-mp3 e. The "Stereo Mix" option "may" not be available if you do not have an external sound card (i.e., in an expansion slot) versus an integrated sound card (i.e., on the motherboard). I happen to have an expansion card mounted GeForce 210 graphics card & AMD integrated graphics GPU on the motherboard (i.e., I have both types). f. Start Audacity & check the version so we're on the same version: taskbar menu editor audio audacity Audacity:Help About Audacity == Audacity 2.4.2 g. Check that you "can" record as you'll need "Stereo Mix": Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Recording Device: [?] Channels: [?] Mine said "No devices found" & nothing else was in the drop down entry. h. Set the computer so that you "can" record via "Stereo Mix": Win+R control View by: Category Hardware and sound Sound Playback Make sure that the Speakers are checked with a green checkmark. Hardware and sound Sound Recording Rightclick in a blank area & check "Show Disabled Devices" Mine said: Stereo Mix, Realtek High Definition Audio, Disabled When I rightclicked to set that to "Enabled" I got a notification: "Your privacy settings blocked access to the microphone" (It went away before I could click on the settings though.) Close & restart Audacity and "Stereo Mix (Realtek High Definiti)" shows up where it didn't show up before. You should now have: Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Recording Device: [Stereo Mix (Realtek High Defini)] Channels: [2 (Stereo)] Press OK to close the preferences menu setup. i. In your favorite browser, start playing the YouTube video: https://youtu.be/HotLmqYFKKg j. In Audacity, attempt to record the video that is now playing: Audacity:Transport Recording Record I got: Error Error opening recording device. Error code: -9999 Unanticipated host error. k. So I switched off the VPN and tried again but got the same error. I should note I don't have a microphone, but the speaker plays youtube. l. Some tutorials say to set it to MME & others to WASAPI but both fail: Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Host: (Mine was set to [MME]) Change that to: [Windows WASAPI] It still fails. m. Look up the colors of the 1/8th-inch stereo ports on my motherboard: Pink = Microphone in Blue Stereo in Green Speaker out n. One option I tried was to connect a 1/8th-inch stereo male-to-male loopback cable into the green (headphone out) & pink (mic in) ports. But it still failed. o. Giving up on the lousy tutorials, I resort to googling the error. (bearing in mind I do NOT have a microphone) https://github.com.cnpmjs.org/audacity/audacity/issues/663 https://appuals.com/audacity-error-code-9999-unanticipated-host-error/ https://www.windowsdispatch.com/fix-audacity-error-code-9999-unanticipated-host/ https://www.drivereasy.com/knowledge/fix-audacity-error-opening-sound-device-issue/ https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch001194.htm https://www.techjunkie.com/audacity-error-opening-sound-device-how-to-fix/ https://sourceforge.net/p/audacity/mailman/message/36531828/ Possibilities (according to the above cites) a. Microphone access is restricted. b. Antivirus conflict c. Skype/Zoom conflict d. Ensure the external sound device is plugged in (desktop only) e. Ensure the external sound device is enabled f. Ensure audio device settings in Audacity are configured correctly g. Turn off Software Playthrough in Audacity h. Update the audio driver i. Restart the Windows Audio Endpoint Builder service Win+R ms-settings ![]() Turn everything on that you can. p. Now go back & play the video without VPN and press the Audacity "Record" Let it finish in 2:14 minutes & watch the pretty blue waveforms scroll. Then press the square Audacity "Stop" button. Note: I do NOT have a microphone, nor am I using the loopback cable; but I do have a 1/8th-inch jack tying the motherboard (green) output to a powered speaker on my desktop. q. Save it. Audacity:File Export Export as MP3 untitled.mp3 The good news is we apparently no longer need LAME/FFMPEG nowadays. Name: untitled.mp3 Size: 3256048 bytes (3179 KiB) SHA256: 18228637C3B052AE74556DAE78E9270AD01FA544F0A2A70DF9 0E5919943470B2 === above is my ad hoc log just now attempting to do this === -- This is posted as an example of the fact that most tutorials don't work. |
#2
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Posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
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On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 14:01:17 +0000 (UTC), Nicodemus wrote:
I have no microphone, was simply watching a youtube video and launched Audacity and hit the record button, then stopped recording and then saved as .mp3. On a Linum Mint desktop. Hi Nicodemus, I completely understand your experience, since it naturally "just works" for you by default (and I had "thought" it would just work for me too!). I too had figured it would only take a couple of minutes, instead of an hour (although documentation always takes a lot longer than just doing it). The problem is the "if then else" setup questions which need to be part of any decent tutorial, and which were not part of any tutorial that I found. What's not intuitive is that the latest versions of Windows 10, by default, disable the microphone, which, given neither of us _have_ a microphone, you'd "think" wouldn't matter. Even those these later versions of Windows 10 also disable any app to have access to that microphone - again, you'd "think" that wouldn't matter. And yet it does matter. o Win+R ms-settings ![]() Worse, other gotchas "may" matter, such as: o Does the person have only an integrated sound card o Do they need a 1/8th-inch M:M green ![]() o Do we need to install LAME/FFMPEG anymore (the answer is no!) etc. Confusingly, some tutorials said to set the "Host" but they conflicted: Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Host: o [MME]) o [Windows WASAPI] Where, I must confess, I don't even know what those letters mean! In summary, a good tutorial needs to add a few "tests" up front: a. Is the recording apparatus working (even sans microphone)? b. Does the integrated sound card or PCI extension card record audio? c. Is a male-to-male 1/8th-inch loopback jumper needed? What would be nice is if the team could supply those tests. o That way, the _next_ person has an easier time (which is always the goal) -- Part of the high cost of freeware is in figuring out how to use it. |
#3
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Posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
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Arlen Holder wrote:
Typical first pass tutorial process on Windows 10 where NONE of the extent how to articles actually tell you what you actually really need to do! Here's what happened... 1. I read this post about an hour or so ago on the a.c.f newsgroup: o The nice thing about Audacity https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/S1IXPT3xk7g Which says this one line: "It can record the music from a youtube live stream." 2. Being infinitely curious about all tool functionality, I tried Audacity but failed even after reading a dozen web tutorials. snippage Win+R ms-settings ![]() Turn everything on that you can. "Allow desktop apps to access your microphone" +-------+ | | X | "On" +-------+ Audacity is a desktop app of the Win32 persuasion, rather than a Metro one. You also need that when doing things like WebRTC video conferences with a web browser, as that is a desktop application. ******* My Win10 20H2 was missing Stereo Mix. What an adventure. This recipe was spot on. And you have to be careful, if you slide in even one extra reboot at the wrong time, you have to go back and do the previous step again :-/ The name of the UAA item is changed, it's "High Definition Audio Controller", driver incl. hdaudbus.sys and that's how you know it's the right one. I had two Device Manager entries and disabled/uninstalled both as described here. https://www.techwalla.com/articles/m...r-wont-install Some pictures. https://i.postimg.cc/g0WdQhnf/audio-fix.gif Name: 0008-64bit_Win7_Win8_Win81_Win10_R281.exe === Realtek driver used Size: 217553063 bytes (207 MiB) SHA1: 2404B101CA214BCB2E9970DB528180FBF888B30E Paul |
#4
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Posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
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On Wed, 04 Nov 2020 10:57:54 -0500, Paul wrote:
"Allow desktop apps to access your microphone" +-------+ | | X | "On" +-------+ Hi Paul, I appreciate your always purposefully helpful advice as not only do I learn more from your help, but others who are lurking will also benefit greatly. Thanks for clarifying that because the goal, always, is a tutorial that others can use so they would be up & running in minutes, not hours. I must admit that I don't even know what the "microphone" has to do with it, 'cuz I don't even _have_ a microphone on my desktop! Nonetheless, in my frustration, I turned on _everything_ I could: o Win+R ms-settings ![]() Where it seems, from what you wrote, I only needed to turn on: o Allow desktop apps to access your microphone = on Ooops. I just tested that setting and you need _another_ setting: o Allow apps to access your microphone = On What's confusing is that my desktop doesn't even have a mic! Worse, the tutorials conflictingly said to set the "Host:" to: o Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Host: [MME]) [Windows WASAPI] Where they don't even explain what the difference is. googling for what the terms mean: https://www.swee****er.com/sweetcare/articles/roland-difference-between-asio-wdm-mme-drivers/ o MME === Microsoft Multimedia Environment o WASAPI === Windows Audio Session API o WDM === Windows Driver Model o ASIO === Audio Streaming Input / Output o DirectSound === Direct Sound Looking it up, it apparently doesn't matter all that much, so the tutorials should just say that (instead of telling us to use one or the other). https://superuser.com/questions/895525/mme-windows-directsound-or-wasapi o MME: (multimedia events) The Audacity default and the most compatible with all audio devices. o Windows DirectSound: More recent than MME with potentially less latency. o Windows WASAPI: WASAPI is particularly useful for "loopback" devices for recording computer playback. 24-bit recording devices are supported. Playback is emulated using this host. It's not clear to me though _when_ you need "loopback recording": https://docs.microsoft.com/de-de/windows/win32/coreaudio/loopback-recording Audacity is a desktop app of the Win32 persuasion, rather than a Metro one. Ah. Thanks. I didn't know what a "desktop" app was, since, well, as you may know, I have zero "metro" apps (I don't even have a Microsoft Account), although I guess I have the "default" Microsoft apps which "may" be Metro. You also need that when doing things like WebRTC video conferences with a web browser, as that is a desktop application. I'm not sure what "WebRTC" is, but if you're doing a conference with a web browser, then you definitely _need_ an actual microphone, don't you? Looking up WebRTC: o https://bloggeek.me/what-is-webrtc/ "WebRTC enables voice communication to work inside HTML5 pages" OK. But you _still_ need a "real" microphone for that, right? What was unintuitive about "this" error was that you don't need a microphone for Audacity to record the audio. It's not intuitive you need the non-existent "microphone" to be enabled. https://www.techwalla.com/articles/m...r-wont-install Some pictures. https://i.postimg.cc/g0WdQhnf/audio-fix.gif Note that in that picture, _above_ of what you imaged is that there is yet _another_ microphone setting which _also_ must be turned on (I think). o https://i.postimg.cc/nhCyRNNW/audacity01.jpg So you need to turn on _two_ settings for Audacity to record streams o Win+R ms-settings ![]() 1. Turn on "Allow apps to access your microphone" = On 2. Turn on "Allow desktop apps to access your microphone" = On Even if you don't have a microphone (which I don't have, for example). Name: 0008-64bit_Win7_Win8_Win81_Win10_R281.exe === Realtek driver used Size: 217553063 bytes (207 MiB) SHA1: 2404B101CA214BCB2E9970DB528180FBF888B30E Hmm. That's interesting that you apparently had to update your sound card driver in order to get Audacity to record from streaming audio (if I understood you correctly). If so, this is interesting that you had to install a RealTek driver. o I didn't have to do that for Audacity to record streaming audio sans mic But... I've updated my drivers as described in gory detail in this thread o Tutorial: How to update a driver that Windows just doesn't want to update https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/a23fY9CM6rY Specifically, my RealTek driver is reported by Dumo freeware as: o Realtek High Definition Audio Realtek 6.0.8978.1, available 6.0.9018.1 o Realtek PCIe GbE Family Controller, Realtek 10.43.723.2020, available 10.45.928.2020 o Realtek USB 2.0 Card Reader, Realtek, 10.0.19041.31262, available 10.0.19041.31263 As shown in this Dumo freeware screenshot taken just now: o https://i.postimg.cc/Y00X4TFS/audacity02.jpg -- See also: o What's the one free Windows 10 driver update tool you prefer most & why? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/-yDz26GC6zA o How do I know when the Windows driver verifier program is running? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/NG4AzbPKsXs |
#5
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Posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
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Arlen Holder wrote:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2020 10:57:54 -0500, Paul wrote: "Allow desktop apps to access your microphone" +-------+ | | X | "On" +-------+ Hi Paul, I appreciate your always purposefully helpful advice as not only do I learn more from your help, but others who are lurking will also benefit greatly. Thanks for clarifying that because the goal, always, is a tutorial that others can use so they would be up & running in minutes, not hours. I must admit that I don't even know what the "microphone" has to do with it, 'cuz I don't even _have_ a microphone on my desktop! Nonetheless, in my frustration, I turned on _everything_ I could: o Win+R ms-settings ![]() Where it seems, from what you wrote, I only needed to turn on: o Allow desktop apps to access your microphone = on Ooops. I just tested that setting and you need _another_ setting: o Allow apps to access your microphone = On What's confusing is that my desktop doesn't even have a mic! Microsoft uses terminology to suit the high-runner application. The permission is more likely to be "use the ADC on the HDAudio", meaning Mic_In, Line_In, Stereo_Mix. All of those are multiplexer inputs feeding a stereo ADC on the HDaudio chip. They could refine their permission to any degree they want, but there aren't any other choices than "Microphone", and the only way to make one control "fit" is if the control actually owns the ADC instead. If Microsoft said "permission to use the ADC", nobody is going to know what that is. Paul |
#6
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On Wed, 04 Nov 2020 18:45:56 -0500, Paul wrote:
Microsoft uses terminology to suit the high-runner application. I googled what "high runner" meant, but found nothing; so I assume you mean "high end" applications, such as those which might require the sound card. The permission is more likely to be "use the ADC on the HDAudio", meaning Mic_In, Line_In, Stereo_Mix. All of those are multiplexer inputs feeding a stereo ADC on the HDaudio chip. That is a good explanation, which is that Microsoft uses the term "microphone" to mean the audio ADC input on the sound card. They could refine their permission to any degree they want, but there aren't any other choices than "Microphone", and the only way to make one control "fit" is if the control actually owns the ADC instead. If Microsoft said "permission to use the ADC", nobody is going to know what that is. I noticed that in some tutorials they mentioned that the "onboard" circuitry wouldn't allow Audacity to capture the streaming audio, while in others they didn't mention that complication. Since I have both onboard and the Nvidia GeForce graphics card, I wasn't sure which ADC is being used, where I 'think' I'm using the on-board ADC because the only sound jacks 1/8th-inch photo plugs are on the motherboard (the Nvidia GeForce 210 has digital output but no stereo jacks). In summary, I'm not sure how useful converting a YouTube audio to MP3 is (using Audacity) since it can be more easily downloaded as an M4A with youtubedl.exe; but there "might" be a use (somehow) of Audacity being able to save streaming audio from other applications (e.g., Zoom, WebRTC, whatever). -- It's nice to have Audacity in our arsenal but I'm not sure how useful it is to capture streaming audio since we likely could capture it anyway. |
#7
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Posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
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On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 21:36:53 +0000 (UTC), Nicodemus wrote:
For me it says ALSA, on a Linux Mint system. It is a MBoard sound card. Maybe it has more to do windows10 by default making it difficult to use Audacity. I think I agree with you that two things made it harder for me 1. The later Windows 10 versions turn off the ADC audio access by default 2. Not a single tutorial mentioned that this was happening Luckily, the error message was seen by many others in the past o So googling for the error helped me solve the problem The good news is that by reporting that, I saved others the hassle. o The bad news is I'm not sure how useful this capability is. I mean, for YouTube, it's far easier to download the audio separately: o youtube-dl.exe -f 140 https://youtu.be/HotLmqYFKKg Where this capability of Audacity to convert streaming audio to an MP3 file may come in handy might be for _other_ streaming audio needs, outside of YouTube (since YouTube already has its very own well-honed downloader). What _other_ uses (than YouTube) do folks see for this Audacity capability? |
#8
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Posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
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On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 06:55:38 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:
Note: I do NOT have a microphone, nor am I using the loopback cable; but I do have a 1/8th-inch jack tying the motherboard (green) output to a powered speaker on my desktop. Why does Audacity only record streaming audio when a 1/8th-inch stereo cable is connected to the speaker out (even if the other end of that cable is hanging in mid air)? I am NOT an audiophile... so this may be a dumb question... o Can someone _explain_ why I need a cable (& nothing else) to record? a. I have a desktop with no microphone b. I have a green speaker-out 1/8th-inch stereo jack on the motherboard c. I set up Audacity to record whatever is playing on the computer If I leave the green speaker-out jack empty, Audacity won't record audio. o Yet, if I plug in a male:male cable, Audacity records audio just fine. Note that the _other_ end of that male:male cable goes nowhere! o So Audacity needed _only_ "something" (anything) plugged into the jack. Why? o I'm sure there's a mechanical "switch" involved on the jack - but why? Why does Audacity record audio _only_ when a cable is plugged in? o Where that cable can be connected to headphones, speakers, or nothing! This is the specific test I ran, but I don't think it matters: 1. I arbitrarily checked out the election news he https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/election-results-flux-progressive-groups-mobilize-n1246434 2. And then played this Twitter feed (which is NOT a YouTube video): https://twitter.com/i/status/1323752027655229445 3. My results we a. With no cable connected to the green jack, Audacity recorded nothing. b. With a jumper cable connected to the green jack (but connected to nothing else on the other end) Audacity recorded the streaming audio just fine. Why does Audacity only record streaming audio when a 1/8th-inch stereo cable is connected to the speaker out (even if the other end of that cable is hanging in mid air)? |
#9
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Posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows,rec.audio.tech
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Arlen Holder wrote:
On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 06:55:38 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote: Note: I do NOT have a microphone, nor am I using the loopback cable; but I do have a 1/8th-inch jack tying the motherboard (green) output to a powered speaker on my desktop. Why does Audacity only record streaming audio when a 1/8th-inch stereo cable is connected to the speaker out (even if the other end of that cable is hanging in mid air)? I am NOT an audiophile... so this may be a dumb question... o Can someone _explain_ why I need a cable (& nothing else) to record? You need to select Stereo Mix as your sound source. +-----+ Mic ------------| | | | A D LineIn ---------| Mux |---- ADC ----- to CPU | | Stereo_Mix +----| | | +-----+ | | From CPU -- DAC --+-- LineOut } | +-----------------------+ Stereo_Mix is a loopback signal. It takes a "copy" of what is coming from LineOut and routes it back to the input multiplexer. It's a feature in every HDAudio chip (like the motherboard 48 pin square chip in the corner). Thus, to record streaming audio, that audio going out the analog speaker connector, you need to select Stereo_Mix as seen in Audacity. Any mixer setting on Record block (Record in Windows icon in corner), the Stereo_Mix has to be turned up enough to hear it. Remember that picture I made yesterday ? It had a picture of Stereo_Mix in it for a reason. That wasn't a lark on my part. The Stereo_Mix is part of your request for recording audio from a Youtube session, without using youtube-dl and "cheating" to get it. We have to assume someday the RIAA will cut off as much recording capability as possible, and for a while at least, analog will work. I installed the RealTek driver over top of the Microsoft driver, in order to bring back the Stereo_Mix in my Win10 20H2 setup. ******* When we use that foot-long, 1/8" male to 1/8" male cable for recording, it looks like this. +-----+ Mic ------------| | | | A D LineIn +----| Mux |---- ADC ----- to CPU | | | | /-| | | +-----+ | | From CPU -- DAC --+-- LineOut } | +-----------------------+ 1/8" male to 1/8" male cable You can use a cable to take the place of Stereo_Mix, and then you'd select LineIn as your recording source in Audacity. This would be the case, if for example, Windows 10 buggered your Stereo_Mix capability with its clumsiness and stupidity. Not everyone has one of those cables. They might come with some TV tuner card perhaps. Paul |
#10
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On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 03:12:47 -0500, Paul wrote:
You need to select Stereo Mix as your sound source. +-----+ Mic ------------| | | | A D LineIn ---------| Mux |---- ADC ----- to CPU | | Stereo_Mix +----| | | +-----+ | | From CPU -- DAC --+-- LineOut } | +-----------------------+ Hi Paul, Thanks for that diagram, where just studying it is instructive. a. Mic in goes to the analog side of the ADC to the CPU b. Line in goes to the analog side of the ADC to the CPU c. Where LineOut & StereoMix are, somehow, intertwined Somehow, when I set Audacity to record from "Stereo Mix", (and if I'm playing a twitter streaming feed in my browser), but if I do NOT plug a "disconnected" cable into LineOut, then Audacity gets no signal to record. However, when I set Audacity to record from "Stereo Mix", (and if I'm playing a twitter streaming feed in my browser), and if I also plug a "disconnected" cable into LineOut, then Audacity DOES get a signal to record. I guess what your diagram is showing is that StereoMix is disconnected from LineOut unless a 1/8th-inch plug is used to "connect" them? Is that right? If so, then by putting the 1/8th-inch plug into the "LineOut" jack, that connects the twitter feed coming from the DAC to the "StereoMix" feed which then goes to the ADC to the CPU (???) and then from there, to Audacity as its digital input (???) Stereo_Mix is a loopback signal. It takes a "copy" of what is coming from LineOut and routes it back to the input multiplexer. It's a feature in every HDAudio chip (like the motherboard 48 pin square chip in the corner). I looked on my motherboard but don't see a 48-pin square chip in any of the corners, but I think I'm getting your point that the "StereoMix" is a loopback of LineOut to the ADC (and then to Audacity). Thus, to record streaming audio, that audio going out the analog speaker connector, you need to select Stereo_Mix as seen in Audacity. I did select "Stereo Mix" since all the tutorials suggested that o But I didn't know why The choices I have in Audacity a o For Host [MME] (Microsoft Multimedia Environment) Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Microsoft Sound Mapper] o For Host [Windows DirectSound] Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Primary Sound Capture Driver] o For Host [WASAPI] (Windows Audio Session API) Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Digital Output loopback] or [Speakers] The good news is that they all have "Stereo Mix" as a choice. Any mixer setting on Record block (Record in Windows icon in corner), the Stereo_Mix has to be turned up enough to hear it. I don't understand that statement. Remember that picture I made yesterday ? It had a picture of Stereo_Mix in it for a reason. That wasn't a lark on my part. The Stereo_Mix is part of your request for recording audio from a Youtube session, without using youtube-dl and "cheating" to get it. We have to assume someday the RIAA will cut off as much recording capability as possible, and for a while at least, analog will work. I think I get it that "stereo mix" is a loopback of the analog signal _back_ into the ADC, is that what you're trying to teach me? With the 1/8th-inch plug in place, is this sequence correct yet? a. The digital stream comes in from the browser twitter feed b. That digital stream goes to the DAC preamp output c. That DAC preamp output goes to LineOut (to go to powered speakers) d. If (and only if) a 1/8th plug is plugged into LineOut e. Then that DAC preamp output also loops back to the ADC input f. Where the ADC converts the analog lineout to a digital stream g. Which is then fed to the "StereoMix" input of Audacity I installed the RealTek driver over top of the Microsoft driver, in order to bring back the Stereo_Mix in my Win10 20H2 setup. What does the "mix" mean in the term "Stereo Mix"? I get what "stereo" means (i.e., 2 audio channels) but what's the "mix"? a. Does the "mix" mean a mix of the two audio channels? b. Or does the "mix" mean a mix of line out and line back in via loopback? When we use that foot-long, 1/8" male to 1/8" male cable for recording, it looks like this. +-----+ Mic ------------| | | | A D LineIn +----| Mux |---- ADC ----- to CPU | | | | /-| | | +-----+ | | From CPU -- DAC --+-- LineOut } | +-----------------------+ 1/8" male to 1/8" male cable You can use a cable to take the place of Stereo_Mix, and then you'd select LineIn as your recording source in Audacity. This would be the case, if for example, Windows 10 buggered your Stereo_Mix capability with its clumsiness and stupidity. Is that why they suggested that physical male-to-male loopback cable here? https://davescomputertips.com/how-to-record-internet-audio-with-audacity/ Not everyone has one of those cables. They might come with some TV tuner card perhaps. I have an extensive cable box, like most people here. o It even has RS232 cables in it, and SCSI cables too. It had a 30-foot male-to-female 1/8th-inch cable & splitters o In addition to a male-to-male 1/8th-inch cable So I'm all set on cabling, if I need to use it o But luckily, just plugging the plug alone into LineOut worked! |
#11
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Arlen Holder wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 03:12:47 -0500, Paul wrote: You need to select Stereo Mix as your sound source. +-----+ Mic ------------| | | | A D LineIn ---------| Mux |---- ADC ----- to CPU | | Stereo_Mix +----| | | +-----+ | | From CPU -- DAC --+-- LineOut } | +-----------------------+ Hi Paul, Thanks for that diagram, where just studying it is instructive. a. Mic in goes to the analog side of the ADC to the CPU b. Line in goes to the analog side of the ADC to the CPU c. Where LineOut & StereoMix are, somehow, intertwined Somehow, when I set Audacity to record from "Stereo Mix", (and if I'm playing a twitter streaming feed in my browser), but if I do NOT plug a "disconnected" cable into LineOut, then Audacity gets no signal to record. However, when I set Audacity to record from "Stereo Mix", (and if I'm playing a twitter streaming feed in my browser), and if I also plug a "disconnected" cable into LineOut, then Audacity DOES get a signal to record. I guess what your diagram is showing is that StereoMix is disconnected from LineOut unless a 1/8th-inch plug is used to "connect" them? Is that right? If so, then by putting the 1/8th-inch plug into the "LineOut" jack, that connects the twitter feed coming from the DAC to the "StereoMix" feed which then goes to the ADC to the CPU (???) and then from there, to Audacity as its digital input (???) Stereo_Mix is a loopback signal. It takes a "copy" of what is coming from LineOut and routes it back to the input multiplexer. It's a feature in every HDAudio chip (like the motherboard 48 pin square chip in the corner). I looked on my motherboard but don't see a 48-pin square chip in any of the corners, but I think I'm getting your point that the "StereoMix" is a loopback of LineOut to the ADC (and then to Audacity). Thus, to record streaming audio, that audio going out the analog speaker connector, you need to select Stereo_Mix as seen in Audacity. I did select "Stereo Mix" since all the tutorials suggested that o But I didn't know why The choices I have in Audacity a o For Host [MME] (Microsoft Multimedia Environment) Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Microsoft Sound Mapper] o For Host [Windows DirectSound] Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Primary Sound Capture Driver] o For Host [WASAPI] (Windows Audio Session API) Recording choices are [Stereo Mix] or [Digital Output loopback] or [Speakers] The good news is that they all have "Stereo Mix" as a choice. Any mixer setting on Record block (Record in Windows icon in corner), the Stereo_Mix has to be turned up enough to hear it. I don't understand that statement. Remember that picture I made yesterday ? It had a picture of Stereo_Mix in it for a reason. That wasn't a lark on my part. The Stereo_Mix is part of your request for recording audio from a Youtube session, without using youtube-dl and "cheating" to get it. We have to assume someday the RIAA will cut off as much recording capability as possible, and for a while at least, analog will work. I think I get it that "stereo mix" is a loopback of the analog signal _back_ into the ADC, is that what you're trying to teach me? With the 1/8th-inch plug in place, is this sequence correct yet? a. The digital stream comes in from the browser twitter feed b. That digital stream goes to the DAC preamp output c. That DAC preamp output goes to LineOut (to go to powered speakers) d. If (and only if) a 1/8th plug is plugged into LineOut e. Then that DAC preamp output also loops back to the ADC input f. Where the ADC converts the analog lineout to a digital stream g. Which is then fed to the "StereoMix" input of Audacity I installed the RealTek driver over top of the Microsoft driver, in order to bring back the Stereo_Mix in my Win10 20H2 setup. What does the "mix" mean in the term "Stereo Mix"? I get what "stereo" means (i.e., 2 audio channels) but what's the "mix"? a. Does the "mix" mean a mix of the two audio channels? b. Or does the "mix" mean a mix of line out and line back in via loopback? When we use that foot-long, 1/8" male to 1/8" male cable for recording, it looks like this. +-----+ Mic ------------| | | | A D LineIn +----| Mux |---- ADC ----- to CPU | | | | /-| | | +-----+ | | From CPU -- DAC --+-- LineOut } | +-----------------------+ 1/8" male to 1/8" male cable You can use a cable to take the place of Stereo_Mix, and then you'd select LineIn as your recording source in Audacity. This would be the case, if for example, Windows 10 buggered your Stereo_Mix capability with its clumsiness and stupidity. Is that why they suggested that physical male-to-male loopback cable here? https://davescomputertips.com/how-to-record-internet-audio-with-audacity/ Not everyone has one of those cables. They might come with some TV tuner card perhaps. I have an extensive cable box, like most people here. o It even has RS232 cables in it, and SCSI cables too. It had a 30-foot male-to-female 1/8th-inch cable & splitters o In addition to a male-to-male 1/8th-inch cable So I'm all set on cabling, if I need to use it o But luckily, just plugging the plug alone into LineOut worked! What's needed to record the output, is a path to get back to the input side, and to the ADC. The Stereo_Mix method, uses a wire which is inside the HDAudio chip. Selecting that input, is a matter of configuring software the right way, so it will work. Every input has a level adjustment. You are adjusting the level to avoid overloading while recording. You adjust the gain, so the recording is loud enough. Take for example, you play a DVD and get a LineOut output that way. DVDs seem to be recorded really low, like -15dB or so. There seems to be no way to drive a lot of signal that way. When recording that DVD with Audacity, you need to adjust the level, for a pleasant recording. Audacity has a VU meter, so you can see the incoming voltage level. The VU Meter is there, so you can judge whether you've still got headroom, for a non-distorted recording. Inputs have mutes. Or, a level slider can be set at zero. The effect is zero volts on input and a very quiet recording, if either of those happen. ******* There is no particular reason for an interaction between LineOut/LineIn and Stereo_Mix. When you plug the 1/8" plug into a jack, the jack has a side contact. The side contact closure is detected on the HDAudio chip. It generates an event to the OS. The driver presents a prompt "Did you plug something into LineIn?" or similar. One of the side effects of plugging in LineIn, is it can be used to automatically switch the input mux in front of the ADC, so that LineIn is used. And whatever your previous choice was, is de-selected. The loopback path only exists for one chip choice at a time. To record through the RealTek Stereo_Mix, means the RealTek LineOut has to be used and playing the content on the analog computer speakers or similar. If the sound was going to your TV set over HDMI for example, maybe the NVidia video card HDAudio internal to the GPU is doing that. And there would be no "virtual wire" to get to the RealTek ADC/Mux. As a consequence, you have to think carefully about where that wire is. There is at least one "virtual cable" driver, which is a software technique for copying the Windows (output) mixer stream and making a "pin" of it. Then, in Audacity, the "pin" is offered as an "input choice". The virtual cable, in a sense, bypasses DACs and ADCs and "just gets the job done". This would be an alternative if someday soon, Microsoft finds a way of permanently removing the driver ability to get at the Stereo_Mix which is a hardware feature. From a DMCA perspective, Microsoft could also choice to block and prevent that "virtual cable" software from running. Summary: Plugging in 1/8" plugs to HDAudio jacks, has as a side effect, the "side contact" signals to the driver, that a change has occurred. And the driver can use this as an excuse to switch input or output settings, by signaling these facts to the OS handling things. Without software to receive "plug events", nothing would happen without software interference. The Stereo_Mix doesn't need that. It needs selecting Stereo_Mix in Audacity, to "wire up the input". But it also needs a signal going through the output side of that HDAudio chip, so that the signal can be copied. Stereo_Mix and the black wire, are two of the same. They're a path. The black wire also tickles the side contact on two jacks. The Stereo_Mix does not, so to get the Stereo_Mix to work requires two GUI actions at a minimum. Something to set up the input side. And some operation to get a signal onto the output, so you can copy it with a feature put there in the HDAudio chip for this. Paul |
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On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 12:04:18 -0500, Paul wrote:
What's needed to record the output, is a path to get back to the input side, and to the ADC. The Stereo_Mix method, uses a wire which is inside the HDAudio chip. Selecting that input, is a matter of configuring software the right way, so it will work. Every input has a level adjustment. You are adjusting the level to avoid overloading while recording. You adjust the gain, so the recording is loud enough. Take for example, you play a DVD and get a LineOut output that way. DVDs seem to be recorded really low, like -15dB or so. There seems to be no way to drive a lot of signal that way. When recording that DVD with Audacity, you need to adjust the level, for a pleasant recording. Audacity has a VU meter, so you can see the incoming voltage level. The VU Meter is there, so you can judge whether you've still got headroom, for a non-distorted recording. Inputs have mutes. Or, a level slider can be set at zero. The effect is zero volts on input and a very quiet recording, if either of those happen. ******* There is no particular reason for an interaction between LineOut/LineIn and Stereo_Mix. When you plug the 1/8" plug into a jack, the jack has a side contact. The side contact closure is detected on the HDAudio chip. It generates an event to the OS. The driver presents a prompt "Did you plug something into LineIn?" or similar. One of the side effects of plugging in LineIn, is it can be used to automatically switch the input mux in front of the ADC, so that LineIn is used. And whatever your previous choice was, is de-selected. The loopback path only exists for one chip choice at a time. To record through the RealTek Stereo_Mix, means the RealTek LineOut has to be used and playing the content on the analog computer speakers or similar. If the sound was going to your TV set over HDMI for example, maybe the NVidia video card HDAudio internal to the GPU is doing that. And there would be no "virtual wire" to get to the RealTek ADC/Mux. As a consequence, you have to think carefully about where that wire is. There is at least one "virtual cable" driver, which is a software technique for copying the Windows (output) mixer stream and making a "pin" of it. Then, in Audacity, the "pin" is offered as an "input choice". The virtual cable, in a sense, bypasses DACs and ADCs and "just gets the job done". This would be an alternative if someday soon, Microsoft finds a way of permanently removing the driver ability to get at the Stereo_Mix which is a hardware feature. From a DMCA perspective, Microsoft could also choice to block and prevent that "virtual cable" software from running. Summary: Plugging in 1/8" plugs to HDAudio jacks, has as a side effect, the "side contact" signals to the driver, that a change has occurred. And the driver can use this as an excuse to switch input or output settings, by signaling these facts to the OS handling things. Without software to receive "plug events", nothing would happen without software interference. The Stereo_Mix doesn't need that. It needs selecting Stereo_Mix in Audacity, to "wire up the input". But it also needs a signal going through the output side of that HDAudio chip, so that the signal can be copied. Stereo_Mix and the black wire, are two of the same. They're a path. The black wire also tickles the side contact on two jacks. The Stereo_Mix does not, so to get the Stereo_Mix to work requires two GUI actions at a minimum. Something to set up the input side. And some operation to get a signal onto the output, so you can copy it with a feature put there in the HDAudio chip for this. All the while I thought the tutorials were missing only _one_ conditional "if then else" check, without knowing there are (at least) five of them! I've read your response four or five times, like a kindergarten kid watching a Disney movie, where each time I get a little bit more of what you're trying to inform me (as all this "Stereo Mix" stuff is new to me). This is perhaps the _simplest_ definition of "Stereo Mix" I've found: "Stereo Mix allows you to record exactly what was being output to your speakers, without going through any analog/digital conversion." https://mediarealm.com.au/articles/stereo-mix-setup-windows-10/ But Lord knows I've been scouring the Internet for better definitions: https://mediarealm.com.au/articles/stereo-mix-setup-windows-10/ https://winbuzzer.com/2020/04/25/how-to-record-windows-system-audio-with-stereo-mix-xcxwbt/ https://www.howtogeek.com/howto/39532/how-to-enable-stereo-mix-in-windows-7-to-record-audio/ *It seems 5 planets need to line up for a successful stereo mix recording.* (1) You need to turn on app & desktop app access to the "so-called" microphone: o Win+R ms-settings ![]() (2) Your audio driver must be able to enable/disable the Stereo Mix selection: o Win+R devmgmt.msc Sound video & game controllers == Update driver https://www.realtek.com/en/component/zoo/category/pc-audio-codecs-high-definition-audio-codecs-software (3) You need to enable Stereo Mix (apparently, disabled by default in Win10): o Win+R mmsys.cpl Recording Stereo Mix == Enabled (4) You need your recording software to be able to use Stereo Mix o Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Recording == Stereo Mix (5) And, you need to connect the "loopback" of LineOut to enable copying: o Plug in any 1/8-inch male plug into the lime green LineOut connector It's in understanding that final (fifth) planet lining up that I keep reading (and re-reading) your response, gleaning a bit more with each try. |
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Arlen Holder wrote:
It's in understanding that final (fifth) planet lining up that I keep reading (and re-reading) your response, gleaning a bit more with each try. You need a diagram of an HDAudio chip, as additional context info. I'll find one later and post a link. I've posted one before, just can't find it. The ones in Analog Devices datasheets are pretty clear, for example, and you'll be able to see the Stereo Mix in there. Paul |
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On Thu, 05 Nov 2020 16:43:25 -0500, Paul wrote:
You need a diagram of an HDAudio chip, as additional context info. I'll find one later and post a link. I've posted one before, just can't find it. The ones in Analog Devices datasheets are pretty clear, for example, and you'll be able to see the Stereo Mix in there. Hi Paul, Thanks for the help and advice. You don't have to find the diagram as I believe you. This Stereo Mix stuff was simply new to me. But I'm no audiophile. o I just wanted to write a tutorial for others to capture streaming audio. That tutorial would _start_ with the five setup steps on newer Windows 10: 1. We need to turn on app & desktop app access to the "microphone" o Win+R ms-settings ![]() 2. We need to ensure the audio driver can enable a "Stereo Mix" option o Win+R devmgmt.msc Sound video & game controllers == Update driver 3. We then need to enable Stereo Mix in that Windows 10 audio driver: o Win+R mmsys.cpl Recording Stereo Mix == Enabled https://www.realtek.com/en/component/zoo/category/pc-audio-codecs-high-definition-audio-codecs-software 4. We need to install Audacity & set the recording to "Stereo Mix" o Audacity:Edit Preferences Devices Recording == Stereo Mix 5. We need to also enable "loopback", which in my case is mechanical: o Plug in any 1/8-inch male plug into the lime green LineOut connector 6. Then we can stream audio, capture it, and save it to an MP3 file. o The 8 Best Free Online Music Streaming Services With No Limitations https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/7-online-music-streaming-services-restrictions/ |
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On 6/11/2020 8:46 am, Arlen Holder wrote:
Damn troll, just decided to block you on this group too and you were using 4 different return-to addresses? Trolls are as trolls do. -- Shaun. "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM" David Melville This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software. |
#16
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Paul wrote:
Arlen Holder wrote: It's in understanding that final (fifth) planet lining up that I keep reading (and re-reading) your response, gleaning a bit more with each try. You need a diagram of an HDAudio chip, as additional context info. I'll find one later and post a link. I've posted one before, just can't find it. The ones in Analog Devices datasheets are pretty clear, for example, and you'll be able to see the Stereo Mix in there. Paul What's interesting (to me), is the Stereo Mix is really a mixer, but the software doesn't allow it to be controlled that way. Stereo Mix is much more than just LineOut. https://i.postimg.cc/dVDTpv8G/AD1988B.gif Use "Download original image" to see the full scale version. The picture was twice that scale, but the site wouldn't accept it, so I had to scale it down a bit. The AD1988B claims to use 32-bit math (to avoid overflow), which tells me that parts of that diagram are digital and not analog as the "functional" diagram might claim. The mixer is doing the summation of 8 channels of 24-bit each, so this would be 27-bits to avoid overflow. They don't say whether it's fixed point or float, but fixed point would be easier for them. The diagram is kooky, compared to how the GUI on the computer appears and works. It could for example, be mixing 7.1 down to stereo, but with a transformation or what ? Perhaps the driver just says "screw it" and passes only LineOut through. Paul |
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On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 05:55:52 -0500, Paul wrote:
What's interesting (to me), is the Stereo Mix is really a mixer, but the software doesn't allow it to be controlled that way. Stereo Mix is much more than just LineOut. https://i.postimg.cc/dVDTpv8G/AD1988B.gif Use "Download original image" to see the full scale version. Hi Paul, Thanks for helping out so all can benefit from what you've learned, where I just downloaded that ADI "AD1988A/AD1988B Functional Block Diagram": o https://i.postimg.cc/dVDTpv8G/AD1988B.gif Name: AD1988B.gif Size: 79285 bytes (77 KiB) SHA256: A0EA9DE570BBF49A89882E3B79963C39BC396D68D9F8B73CF9 E00DF2E7EE49C2 The picture was twice that scale, but the site wouldn't accept it, so I had to scale it down a bit. These are full-sized 20-page PDFs which are easier to search for keywords: o https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/AD1988A_1988B.pdf Name: AD1988A_1988B.pdf Size: 1434129 bytes (1400 KiB) SHA256: 899F6E7A84FF62BC6A39A501FA20446C3D4F2B4FFDF9E87741 E21019B9ABC53A o https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/obsolete-data-sheets/AD1988A_1988B.pdf Name: AD1988A_1988Ba.pdf Size: 2092821 bytes (2043 KiB) SHA256: 4010B5C24B910D75CC5835AC3C11D45EB5A3A55357F1FE10EB 3C82911B0191DA The AD1988B claims to use 32-bit math (to avoid overflow), which tells me that parts of that diagram are digital and not analog as the "functional" diagram might claim. The mixer is doing the summation of 8 channels of 24-bit each, so this would be 27-bits to avoid overflow. They don't say whether it's fixed point or float, but fixed point would be easier for them. The diagram is kooky, compared to how the GUI on the computer appears and works. It could for example, be mixing 7.1 down to stereo, but with a transformation or what ? Perhaps the driver just says "screw it" and passes only LineOut through. I will take a look at the diagrams, but wanted you to have them also. Notice the "Node ID 2D" o 2D, Stereo Mix-Down, Audio mixer, Mixes the stereo L/R channels to drive MONO_OUT But before I look, can you explain _why_ you picked _this_ particular chip? -- FEATURES o Ten 192 kHz DACs o Five independent stereo DAC pairs o 7.1 surround sound plus independent headphone o Independent 8 kHz, 11.025 kHz, 16 kHz, 22.05 kHz, 32 kHz, o 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz o sample rates o Selectable stereo mixer on outputs o 16-, 20-, and 24-bit PCM resolution o Six 192 kHz ADCs o Three independent stereo ADC pairs o Simultaneous record of up to three stereo channels o Support for quad microphone arrays plus independent o capture channel o Independent 8 kHz, 11.025 kHz, 16 kHz, 22.05 kHz, 32 kHz, o 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz o sample rates o 16-, 20-, and 24-bit resolution o S/PDIF output o 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz o sample rates o 16-, 20-, and 24-bit data widths o PCM, WMA/PRO, Dolby®, AC3, and DTS® formats o Digital PCM gain control o Digital PCM ADC/stream mixer o S/PDIF input o 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, and 192 kHz o sample rates o 16-, 20-, and 24-bit data widths o PCM, WMA/PRO, Dolby, AC3, and DTS formats o Digital PCM gain control o Auto synchronizes to source High quality stereo CD input with GND sense o MONO_OUT pin for internal speakers or telephony o Retasking jack support ENHANCED FEATURES o Three stereo headphone amps o AD1988A: Windows Vista Operating System Premium Logo o compliant o 95 dB outputs o 90 dB audio inputs o AD1988B: Windows Vista Premium Logo compliant and o Dolby Master Studio compliant o 101 dB outputs 92 dB audio inputs o Internal 32-bit arithmetic for greater accuracy Impedance and presence detection on all jacks o Analog PCBEEP and digital synthesis BEEP o C/LFE channel swap o Two general-purpose digital I/O (GPIO) pins o 3.3 V analog and digital supplies o Reduced support components o Advanced power management modes o 48-pin LQFP and LFCSP_VQ package options, Pb-free o Supports Andrea Active Noise Reduction headphones o Hardware volume control o Built-in microphone gain amps o Adjustable microphone bias pins |
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On Fri, 6 Nov 2020 15:01:46 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:
I will take a look at the diagrams, but wanted you to have them also. Notice the "Node ID 2D" o 2D, Stereo Mix-Down, Audio mixer, Mixes the stereo L/R channels to drive MONO_OUT But before I look, can you explain _why_ you picked _this_ particular chip? Hi Paul, In summary, can you point to the chip you think is that 48-pin ADI chip? o https://support.hp.com/doc-images/194/c02431965.jpg I'm not sure my motherboard even _has_ that specific ADI chip. o But my motherboard does have three 48-pin square chips (two in the back). My old tired eyes can't "read" the writing on the 48-pin chips on the MB. o Nor does a photo from my cellphone show the writing clear enough to read Nor can I find an owners manual for my motherboard o HP system name = NY549AA-ABA p6230y Aloe o Manufacturers name = Foxconn H-RS880-uATX 1.01 I'm "assuming" you're assuming I have that 48-pin ADI chip on the motherboard, where here's all I can find (so far) for a manual: How to find a diagram of your motherboard o Win+R msinfo32 System Model: NY549AA-ABA p6230y BaseBoard Manufacturer: FOXCONN BaseBoard Product: ALOE BaseBoard Version: 1.01 Processor: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 810 Processor, 2600 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s) BIOS Version/Date: American Megatrends Inc. 5.02, 8/31/2009 Google results: o Motherboard https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c01925486 https://support.hp.com/doc-images/194/c02431965.jpg HP/Compaq name = Aloe Foxconn name = H-RS880-uATX 1.01 o BIOS https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c01997718/ o Manuals https://www.manualslib.com/brand/foxconn/motherboard.html o This says no user manual exists: https://digitalballs.weebly.com/h-rs880-uatx-manual.html https://digitalballs.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/4/8/124848319/603470659.jpg o Specs https://www.pc-specs.com/mobo/HP/HP_H-RS880-uATX_(Aloe)/1404 o Benchmark https://browser.geekbench.com/geekbench2/185041 o MobileSpecs https://mobilespecs.net/motherboard/Foxconn/Foxconn_N-Alvorix-RS880-uATX.html o GAME https://www.game-debate.com/motherboard/index.php?mot_id=1404&motherboard=HP%20H-RS880-uATX%20(Aloe) o Amazon https://www.amazon.com/HP-Aloe-537376-001-H-RS880-uATX-Motherboard/dp/B00TUXP846 o Amazon https://www.amazon.com/HP-HPE-555KR-H-RS880-UATX-AloeMotherboard-537376-001/dp/B005UF07ZI In summary, can you point to the chip you think is that 48-pin ADI chip? o https://support.hp.com/doc-images/194/c02431965.jpg -- Probably we should author a tutorial on how to find a motherboard manual. |
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Arlen Holder wrote:
In summary, can you point to the chip you think is that 48-pin ADI chip? o https://support.hp.com/doc-images/194/c02431965.jpg I picked that particular chip because it's on *my* motherboard :-) I would have an incentive to collect the sheet for it. I don't think I have a very large collection of datasheets. Probably a few AC'97 ones over the years. One other thing that's interesting, is some chips have "muxes" for Stereo_Mix but that one has a "summer", which is an entirely different kettle of fish. ******* c02431965.jpg It took me roughly 3 seconds to spot it. Look for the green dot in the lower left corner. A little bit down and to the right a bit from that reference point, you'll find a 48 pin chip. The chip will be square, and have 4 x 12 pins for a total of 48. I can't see any detail though - look for a crab icon, the RealTek icon, because they make a lot of these, all different classes of audio. Everything from stereo to 7.1 . HDAudio or AC'97 chips, usually have a pile of small electrolytics used for AC coupling of signals. There should also be a separate DC regulator, a linear, that provides power to the chip. But it's pretty hard to clean digital noise off a rail using a linear. Sometimes in the PCB, you can see attempts to build moats or put guard grounds around some of the analog wiring. Or stick guards around the Ethernet wires, so there is less coupling into the analog. There have been lots of motherboards where total ignorance prevailed near the 48 pin CODEC chip, and all sorts of mouse noises, Ethernet noises and so on, ended up in the computer speakers. It took quite a while for some of the motherboard companies to become serious about the audio corner of the board. I mean, in some cases, the interference was so bad, it was obvious nobody ever lab-tested the audio. Or they would not have let it ship. Motherboards are designed three times total, with the third spin required to be "patch wire free". Plenty of time to do an audio test. Paul |
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On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 14:11:00 -0500, Paul wrote:
I picked that particular chip because it's on *my* motherboard :-) Oh. slaps head I was wondering why you had picked that chip! o What I'm wondering is how the hell you knew it would be 48 pins square? My Foxconn HRS880u-ATX has a bunch of 48-pin square 12x12 chips o Where I marked each of them in a different color for you here https://i.postimg.cc/JhhWnjTP/Foxconn-HRS880u-ATX.jpg My orange U10 chip you fingered definitely says Realtek on it: o But I think that's the Ethernet controller RTL911DL but I'm not sure https://i.postimg.cc/ZKrmDbBF/48pinu10.jpg Which, I think, may be this PCI Ethernet Controller chip: http://www.image.micros.com.pl/_dane_techniczne_auto/uirtl8111dl.pdf I would have an incentive to collect the sheet for it. I don't think I have a very large collection of datasheets. Probably a few AC'97 ones over the years. One other thing that's interesting, is some chips have "muxes" for Stereo_Mix but that one has a "summer", which is an entirely different kettle of fish. ******* c02431965.jpg It took me roughly 3 seconds to spot it. Look for the green dot in the lower left corner. A little bit down and to the right a bit from that reference point, you'll find a 48 pin chip. The chip will be square, and have 4 x 12 pins for a total of 48. I can't see any detail though - look for a crab icon, the RealTek icon, because they make a lot of these, all different classes of audio. Everything from stereo to 7.1 . I found the crab icon on my blue 48-pin 12x12 chip in the very corner. o I think the number is ALC888S (with also date codes 97U19S1 G932C2). https://i.postimg.cc/44HsVbX0/48pinu6.jpg Which I think may be this sound controller chip: https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/ALC888S_DataSheet_1.2.pdf HDAudio or AC'97 chips, usually have a pile of small electrolytics used for AC coupling of signals. There should also be a separate DC regulator, a linear, that provides power to the chip. But it's pretty hard to clean digital noise off a rail using a linear. Sometimes in the PCB, you can see attempts to build moats or put guard grounds around some of the analog wiring. Or stick guards around the Ethernet wires, so there is less coupling into the analog. There have been lots of motherboards where total ignorance prevailed near the 48 pin CODEC chip, and all sorts of mouse noises, Ethernet noises and so on, ended up in the computer speakers. It took quite a while for some of the motherboard companies to become serious about the audio corner of the board. I mean, in some cases, the interference was so bad, it was obvious nobody ever lab-tested the audio. Or they would not have let it ship. Motherboards are designed three times total, with the third spin required to be "patch wire free". Plenty of time to do an audio test. Paul What I'm wondering is how the hell you knew it would be 48 pins square? |
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Arlen Holder wrote:
What I'm wondering is how the hell you knew it would be 48 pins square? Well, it's a standard. That makes it easy :-) Don't have to be Kreskin. Intel issued HDAudio_03.pdf (2004), that's the spec. "Industry standard 48-pin QFP package and pinout for codec." (Page 14) Paul |
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On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 19:41:00 -0500, Paul wrote:
Well, it's a standard. That makes it easy :-) Don't have to be Kreskin. Intel issued HDAudio_03.pdf (2004), that's the spec. "Industry standard 48-pin QFP package and pinout for codec." (Page 14) Paul Way back when, I once went to a Kreskin event, where I went up on stage. o Then I left on my own accord 'cuz it was clear the games he was playing. It turns out those who _want_ to _stay_ on stage will play his game... o Those who don't play his game simply leave the stage (or don't go up). Anyway, I get it now that the 48-pin pinout is the Intel specification. o Where your sound controller is apparently an ADI AD1988A chip. https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/AD1988A_1988B.pdf While mine is definitely the Realtek ALC888S sound controller chip: o https://i.postimg.cc/44HsVbX0/48pinu6.jpg https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/ALC888S_DataSheet_1.2.pdf |
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Arlen Holder wrote:
On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 19:41:00 -0500, Paul wrote: Well, it's a standard. That makes it easy :-) Don't have to be Kreskin. Intel issued HDAudio_03.pdf (2004), that's the spec. "Industry standard 48-pin QFP package and pinout for codec." (Page 14) Paul Way back when, I once went to a Kreskin event, where I went up on stage. o Then I left on my own accord 'cuz it was clear the games he was playing. It turns out those who _want_ to _stay_ on stage will play his game... o Those who don't play his game simply leave the stage (or don't go up). Anyway, I get it now that the 48-pin pinout is the Intel specification. o Where your sound controller is apparently an ADI AD1988A chip. https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/AD1988A_1988B.pdf While mine is definitely the Realtek ALC888S sound controller chip: o https://i.postimg.cc/44HsVbX0/48pinu6.jpg https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/ALC888S_DataSheet_1.2.pdf They went to a lot of trouble to get a Stereo_Mix in there. Paul |
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On Fri, 06 Nov 2020 20:22:52 -0500, Paul wrote:
o Where your sound controller is apparently an ADI AD1988A chip. https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/AD1988A_1988B.pdf While mine is definitely the Realtek ALC888S sound controller chip: o https://i.postimg.cc/44HsVbX0/48pinu6.jpg https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/ALC888S_DataSheet_1.2.pdf They went to a lot of trouble to get a Stereo_Mix in there. I do not understand that statement, where I'm not sure who "they" is, and I'm not sure how you know what they did to get "Stereo Mix" in. Assuming "they" is "Realtek", & looking at the Realtek ALC888S datasheet https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/datasheets/ALC888S_DataSheet_1.2.pdf (which I had to convert with ghostscript/ghostview in order to copy) I see they never mentioned "stereo mix", per se, but did mention a "mixer" "Two stereo ADCs support 16/20-bit PCM format, one for stereo microphone, one for legacy mixer recording" "Supports legacy analog mixer architecture" And they mention the sound output jacks on my pc on the back & front: "It provides ten DAC channels that simultaneously support 7.1 sound playback, plus independent stereo sound output (multiple streaming) through the front panel stereo outputs." With respect to the analog pins, it says: "All analog IO are input and output capable, and headphone amplifiers are also integrated at each analog output." "All analog jacks are stereo input and output re-tasking for analog plug & play" In summary, Realtek never once mentioned "Stereo Mix" in that datasheet, but they do mention that the ALC888S supports a "legacy analog mixer". -- See conversion tutorial below to enable copy & paste above: o Tutorial for installing ghostscript/ghostview/pstoedit to remove PDF copy & password protection , downconvert, rotate pages, change paper sizes, fix corruption, extract text, etc. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/O7l0utRdJYk |
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