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Andre Jute[_2_] Andre Jute[_2_] is offline
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Default All hail to the ultrafidelista for what they got right

Patrick Turner, and outspoken Australian, wrote:
Being of sound mind
because I do try to keep an open mind I would hazard a guess that not
all of what "ultrafidelista" might hold as the truth and nothing but the
truth is in fact not the truth at all and might be just a series of
maybe maybe statements.


Yo, Patrick, you're making the same mistake I made when I first ran
into the ultrafidelista: quoting science at them. You'd do better to
quote the Bible at them; have a greater effect, very likely. The hard
core ultrafidelista knows what he believes in and you're wasting your
breath explaining the truth to him.

However, by constant practice at listening hard, and spending lots of
money to extract a few gems of truth from the dross of street myths
and shakti stones, the ultrafidelista have done us all a favour. I got
to be a high priest of the ultrafidelista because by collecting the
bits of their wisdom that had a genuine electronic basis, or simple
superiority on my trained and cultured ear, I found it easy to build
amps that not only sounded better but were electronically superior of
their type.

Among the gifts of the ultrafidelista are the reliance on triodes, on
single-ended operation, on Class A1 operation, the clever use of power
tubes as drivers, the survival of bootstrap topologies, choke loads on
everything, the reintroduction of CCS to audio circuits, and much,
much more that the commercial makers would never have brought back, or
permitted, without the small but fierce market the DIY ultrafidelista
created.

The same applies in loudspeakers: without the ultrafidelista, the horn
loudspeaker, to cite only one instance, would now be dead.

Much as we might enjoy kicking around the loony cableswapping
wannabes, at the serious DIY end of the ultrafidelista to which I
belong there has always been a good deal of serious engineering going
on, conducted by concert-goers of excellent taste. Someone has to
stand up for them.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review
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Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
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Default All hail to the ultrafidelista for what they got right



Andre Jute wrote:

Patrick Turner, and outspoken Australian, wrote:
Being of sound mind
because I do try to keep an open mind I would hazard a guess that not
all of what "ultrafidelista" might hold as the truth and nothing but the
truth is in fact not the truth at all and might be just a series of
maybe maybe statements.


Yo, Patrick, you're making the same mistake I made when I first ran
into the ultrafidelista: quoting science at them. You'd do better to
quote the Bible at them; have a greater effect, very likely. The hard
core ultrafidelista knows what he believes in and you're wasting your
breath explaining the truth to him.



Indeed you are corect. The Ultra-F believes his own bull****.

So do those who cannot accept that evolution was and remains a fine a
way to some kind of god to allow species to develop.

The Bible teaches us a lot, or should, so that we are wiser, regardless
of or moral disposition.

It doesn't have to be technically correct.

Wheras the Radiotron Designer's Handbook can have zero global
moralizing, and be nothing but technical.
Also, it to should make a reader wiser, no matter what his technical
disposition is.

I know guys who'd never ever allow their personal selves or their pet
audio theories to be tested for being either true or false, or somewhere
in between.
They are such bores, and I waste no time talking to them.
One in particular believes an AB test only tests the test, and never
tests the listener or the gear.

He likes the gear I make, but it was all developed using leap-frog
methods of quality comparisons; if latest speaker A sounds better than
older speaker B with some varied use, and usually because measurements
confirm it, and other more tolerant listeners confirm it, then there is
a need to adopt the new and throw out the old idea unless it can be
improved. Sometimes you cannot. There isn't any chance you can make a
cheap $2 Chinese made speaker driver with appallingly large magnetic
clearances sound as detailed and clear as something good from SEAS in
Norway. I know, because I tried that one. Only so much can be achieved
with crossover design.
And I find people who say they know it all usually know very little. I
don't care if some don't like me, and I'm happy who I ain't.

However, by constant practice at listening hard, and spending lots of
money to extract a few gems of truth from the dross of street myths
and shakti stones, the ultrafidelista have done us all a favour. I got
to be a high priest of the ultrafidelista because by collecting the
bits of their wisdom that had a genuine electronic basis, or simple
superiority on my trained and cultured ear, I found it easy to build
amps that not only sounded better but were electronically superior of
their type.


Someone said I ought t have a professional attitude he said, and he
reminded me that he tries to be professional. Then I piped up with ideas
about professionals tacking an extra nought or two on a price for a job,
and being notorious for talking their way out of responsibility when
things go bad or sound bad. "Nope, I said, I don't want to become a pro.
But hey, you may not find a better tradesman. Feel free to have a look
around". He'd become impatient about the time I took to build some amps.
Anyway, I didn't talk myself out of a bother. I earned my way out of it,
because this particularly difficult person was well pleased later
because then he heard why a maker must take a lot of time.
Damned if I'd call myself a hi-priest of anything though. There are too
many ungodly people around wanting to throw brickbats at you when you
ever preach at them. Better to lay low, be around, but not around, and
just make sure everything needing thought and a good decision gets it. I
grew up being taken to Catholic churches on Sundays and other days, and
then I've spent 43 years out of churches and away from priests. They
seemed to like dressing up and preaching at the faithful gathered before
them, their gaze downwards, and made to feel below everyone else,
humble, submissive, nothing, and struggling not to wonder if the girl 3
pews along would be a great **** or not.
Guess I ain't into priests. They often get the job because they can
dress up. Some went further, and they like the access to the alter boys.
OK, so I'd never make a priest. And I've met a few really good ones.
I'll never be submissive either and if I am with those with ideas, I
want answers to questions. While I am with them. And you can't do that
at a church, can't call out "Hey, ya stoopid bugger, doncha think Christ
meant such and such rather than the way the Pope says it ought to be?".
Very politically incorrect. Anyway, church is mainly where old ladies go
now. Not my scene.

Among the gifts of the ultrafidelista are the reliance on triodes, on
single-ended operation, on Class A1 operation, the clever use of power
tubes as drivers, the survival of bootstrap topologies, choke loads on
everything, the reintroduction of CCS to audio circuits, and much,
much more that the commercial makers would never have brought back, or
permitted, without the small but fierce market the DIY ultrafidelista
created.


Usually all the techniques you mentioned result in lower N&D. So you get
better sound.
And without allowing the high N&D performance of the open loop gain then
relying on high NFB to correct it all.

Make the open loop performance clean and then you have minimal reliance
on correction.

I have not used a 45 to drive anything, but a colleague in Sydney used
one to drive a 13Ei in SE triode.
Wow, the best 16 watts I've heard for a long time.

Huh? 13Ei? A *beam tetrode*, YUK, shock horror! The Ultra-F have to
learn that it ain't what ya got, but the way ya use it!


The same applies in loudspeakers: without the ultrafidelista, the horn
loudspeaker, to cite only one instance, would now be dead.


I am not so sure about that. Sounds like a maybe statement. You see,
most ultra-F are almost totally useless with any kind of work tool in
their hands; if they make something, maybe its a mess. So making a
suitable driver for a horn and making the horn is a task beyond 99% of
ultra-F types. So when the ancient horns that were supposed to be so
fine all rotted and rusted away by 1950, you'd think the horny craft
would suffer gross limpness. But no. In the land of public address, the
horn found huge acceptance to be able to make a heck of a row at rock
concerts if you have several hundred of them. And because they are so
efficient, horns put many a smiley on a bean counter dial.
Low power was needed. Horns were used in countless theatres, and big
ones, and you got real bass when there was a bit in the old sound tracks
to be had. Klangfilm theatre horns and the amps that go with them are
severely collectable items these days. Then there are the old JBL horns
that get old and are sold off. All this old junk is bought and hoarded
by many an ultra-F because to buy such stuff you can indulge the glow of
the past, and enjoy this gear used at extremely low levels where the N&D
is extremely low.

Nobody much builds horn speakers successfully at home. All the people I
know who tried failed miserably, and their enthusiasm evaporated when
they realised that there is not a good co-relation between a well
thought out horn design and then getting great sound once you've
followed all the design ideas. Same goes for ESL, ribbon, and ionic
speakers. Some try to talk themselves into liking their Lowthers they
have slaved away over but its a sham so often. I have heard only one
really fine horn system. It used high power rated mid/treble compression
drivers with aluminium horns. All carefully made by JBL and developed
over many years. The bass however was a large 15" in a reflex box.
Aftr I adjusted the crossover to give the 3 way system a flat response
it did sound well, not doubt, and each F range measured as the driver
data said it would with the usual slow arched response without many dips
and peaks.
Months later the system sounded tinny and hard, but its was because the
owner likes to turn up treble and turn down bass. Its his natural bent.
I re-built or repaired all the amps he had, and the amps were blameless.
The mid horns only needed a few milliwatts, and the bullet tweeter horn
even less, so THD was extremely low, so SE amplifiers make much sense.
One could use a simple SE bjt amp to do the same thing. Hell, in many
auto amps of yesterday, there was just one power transistor in the car
radio amp, a large germanium transistor operating in SE class A from the
12V of the car battery. This gives you 3.5Vrms swing and across a 2 ohm
speaker you get 6.1 watts,
and plenty to make soothing music as you felt up your girl parked down a
lane.
Of course there were other drive transistors and some FB. People liked
the sound alright.
Many people were born because of it. But I dunno if the ultra-F ever
noticed....
Maybe they didn't like Fords or Buicks. I don't know what kinda sound
systems were fitted to cars the ultra-F drove, such as Masserati and
Ferrari.....Some drove Volvos......



Much as we might enjoy kicking around the loony cableswapping
wannabes, at the serious DIY end of the ultrafidelista to which I
belong there has always been a good deal of serious engineering going
on, conducted by concert-goers of excellent taste. Someone has to
stand up for them.


Gee, I know what ya mean. Here there are only a few concert goers.
Mostly old dudes and their ancient wives.
At the last concert I went to there were 200 present in this church for
an all Handel program, 2 singers, one trumpet, one pianist and organist.
The performers were under half my age, and only 2 present were under 30,
and most well over my age.
I don't know anyone who goes to concerts and who is cabable of doing
anything except visiting a shop and plugging something in when he gets
home.

But one who I doubt went to many concerts spent 5 years farnarkling with
triodes, chokes, and wires, oily capacitors, and many WW2 transformers
and resistors.
He spent almost no time using an osciliscope, and never measured THD. He
did have to put up with noise, and a response anything but flat. And the
occasional puff of smoke. Years went by as about every triode that could
be tried was tried, mainly using a large number of aligator clipped
wires from bit to bit across the lounge room floor. You wouldn't want to
walk the midnight walk in the dark. Lethal.
People would get to know what the sound of a lotta aligator clips
sounded like. Like crockodile clips :-)
People who visited said lots things about this guy, much BS in fact, but
rarely did anyone want to trade their system for his. Round and round in
developmental circles he went, rabbiting on about the wonders of this
type of cap or that one. OK. He's an enjoyable fellow. And very unlikely
to ever attract a bride. We like him, although we don't see much of him
as we used to. Maybe he's become a bit recluse in his middle age. I
reckon there are more depressed and strange audio nutters around than
there are audio ppl who actually make good gear for a hobby. Anyway,
after exploring the 211 and 845 and other biggies, and using 2A3 etc to
drive them he went all strange and started seeing how tiny power would
sound with horns. I think he's more or less settled for real low power
and horns or old Tannoys. But I don't hear the evidence that his system
sounds better than others I have heard which rely on larger amps, NFB,
and more insensitive speakers.

The audiophile searches endlessly outside mainstream techniques for the
ultimate sound. He sometimes drives into groves of the most wonderful
audio greenery, then drives away to a sonic desert. Some get bogged
down. And they don't like being towed away.

Patrick Turner.




Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

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keithr keithr is offline
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Posts: 182
Default All hail to the ultrafidelista for what they got right

Patrick Turner wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:
Patrick Turner, and outspoken Australian, wrote:
Being of sound mind
because I do try to keep an open mind I would hazard a guess that not
all of what "ultrafidelista" might hold as the truth and nothing but the
truth is in fact not the truth at all and might be just a series of
maybe maybe statements.

Yo, Patrick, you're making the same mistake I made when I first ran
into the ultrafidelista: quoting science at them. You'd do better to
quote the Bible at them; have a greater effect, very likely. The hard
core ultrafidelista knows what he believes in and you're wasting your
breath explaining the truth to him.



Indeed you are corect. The Ultra-F believes his own bull****.

So do those who cannot accept that evolution was and remains a fine a
way to some kind of god to allow species to develop.

The Bible teaches us a lot, or should, so that we are wiser, regardless
of or moral disposition.

It doesn't have to be technically correct.

Wheras the Radiotron Designer's Handbook can have zero global
moralizing, and be nothing but technical.
Also, it to should make a reader wiser, no matter what his technical
disposition is.

I know guys who'd never ever allow their personal selves or their pet
audio theories to be tested for being either true or false, or somewhere
in between.
They are such bores, and I waste no time talking to them.
One in particular believes an AB test only tests the test, and never
tests the listener or the gear.

He likes the gear I make, but it was all developed using leap-frog
methods of quality comparisons; if latest speaker A sounds better than
older speaker B with some varied use, and usually because measurements
confirm it, and other more tolerant listeners confirm it, then there is
a need to adopt the new and throw out the old idea unless it can be
improved. Sometimes you cannot. There isn't any chance you can make a
cheap $2 Chinese made speaker driver with appallingly large magnetic
clearances sound as detailed and clear as something good from SEAS in
Norway. I know, because I tried that one. Only so much can be achieved
with crossover design.
And I find people who say they know it all usually know very little. I
don't care if some don't like me, and I'm happy who I ain't.


Were you out last Monday or just too busy to pick up the phone?

Keith
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tubegarden tubegarden is offline
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Posts: 343
Default All hail to the ultrafidelista for what they got right

Hi RATs!

We solder and listen. Some drink coffee and type. All are happy, more
or less. Life is good

Economics is voodoo. Get over it 8*P

Happy Ears!
Al

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