and most of those stocks rest with the richest 10% maybe 5%.
except for those Ponzi scheme .com stocks, and Ponzi schemes like
ENRON, etc.


What about pensions?


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

and most of those stocks rest with the richest 10% maybe 5%.
except for those Ponzi scheme .com stocks, and Ponzi schemes like
ENRON, etc.


What about pensions?


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

and most of those stocks rest with the richest 10% maybe 5%.
except for those Ponzi scheme .com stocks, and Ponzi schemes like
ENRON, etc.


What about pensions?


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

"Blind Joni" wrote in message
...
and most of those stocks rest with the richest 10% maybe 5%.
except for those Ponzi scheme .com stocks, and Ponzi schemes like
ENRON, etc.

I believe the biggest Ponzi in history was right in my backyard
Syracuse NY by the Bennett Funding Group
I don't have all the details but I believe it involved selling the same
Leases to several diffrent people
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.688 / Virus Database: 449 - Release Date: 5/18/2004

"Blind Joni" wrote in message
...
and most of those stocks rest with the richest 10% maybe 5%.
except for those Ponzi scheme .com stocks, and Ponzi schemes like
ENRON, etc.

I believe the biggest Ponzi in history was right in my backyard
Syracuse NY by the Bennett Funding Group
I don't have all the details but I believe it involved selling the same
Leases to several diffrent people
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.688 / Virus Database: 449 - Release Date: 5/18/2004

"Blind Joni" wrote in message
...
and most of those stocks rest with the richest 10% maybe 5%.
except for those Ponzi scheme .com stocks, and Ponzi schemes like
ENRON, etc.

I believe the biggest Ponzi in history was right in my backyard
Syracuse NY by the Bennett Funding Group
I don't have all the details but I believe it involved selling the same
Leases to several diffrent people
George


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.688 / Virus Database: 449 - Release Date: 5/18/2004

Will's right, there are such safeguards, but the big guns can work
around such minor details as the rules and regs.

I didn't say that Capitalism doesn't still have problems or that abuses of
the system don't exist. I said 19th century and 21st Century capitlaism are
different - and this is true. And public ownership of large companies - the
"Democratization" of capital - puts the lie to much of what Marx and Engels
predicted.

In any event the problems of our economic system in no way prove that any
other system - or having no system at all - is a better way. Again, merely
criticizing something doesn't mean you have a solution or anything better at
all to offer. That there were people stupid enough to think different only led
to genocide, mass murder and totalitarianism; under the Nazis, under the
Fascists, and under the banner of Marxist revolution.

For all it's problems Capitalism still works best as an economic model,
socialism has even more problems then Captalism does but at least it's a
functional system. Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven to be total
bull**** in theory and in practice.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Will's right, there are such safeguards, but the big guns can work
around such minor details as the rules and regs.

I didn't say that Capitalism doesn't still have problems or that abuses of
the system don't exist. I said 19th century and 21st Century capitlaism are
different - and this is true. And public ownership of large companies - the
"Democratization" of capital - puts the lie to much of what Marx and Engels
predicted.

In any event the problems of our economic system in no way prove that any
other system - or having no system at all - is a better way. Again, merely
criticizing something doesn't mean you have a solution or anything better at
all to offer. That there were people stupid enough to think different only led
to genocide, mass murder and totalitarianism; under the Nazis, under the
Fascists, and under the banner of Marxist revolution.

For all it's problems Capitalism still works best as an economic model,
socialism has even more problems then Captalism does but at least it's a
functional system. Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven to be total
bull**** in theory and in practice.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Will's right, there are such safeguards, but the big guns can work
around such minor details as the rules and regs.

I didn't say that Capitalism doesn't still have problems or that abuses of
the system don't exist. I said 19th century and 21st Century capitlaism are
different - and this is true. And public ownership of large companies - the
"Democratization" of capital - puts the lie to much of what Marx and Engels
predicted.

In any event the problems of our economic system in no way prove that any
other system - or having no system at all - is a better way. Again, merely
criticizing something doesn't mean you have a solution or anything better at
all to offer. That there were people stupid enough to think different only led
to genocide, mass murder and totalitarianism; under the Nazis, under the
Fascists, and under the banner of Marxist revolution.

For all it's problems Capitalism still works best as an economic model,
socialism has even more problems then Captalism does but at least it's a
functional system. Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven to be total
bull**** in theory and in practice.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

WillStG wrote:

Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven to be total bull****
in theory and in practice.

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

WillStG wrote:

Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven to be total bull****
in theory and in practice.

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

WillStG wrote:

Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven to be total bull****
in theory and in practice.

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?

Look, "surplus value" (as Marxist theory calls all profit) is NOT as is
claimed a result of stealing from labor, all profit is NOT a result of the
laborer in a factory's effort alone. Let's say you go out and buy a metal
lathe and start a small business, now YOU own the "means of production".
Someone has to market your company to find customers, manage the work that
comes in and order more raw materials, keep the books, answer the phone, it's
not just the guy turning the lathe who creates a product of value it's a team
effort. Marx and Engels claim otherwise and they are just plain wrong.
Successful business models are based on cooperation, not conflict, and profit
is a reflection of the value that is being created by that group process. In a
successful business model, after everyone is paid fairly there should still
profit left over, and if this is not the case a business is not healthy, either
the business model or product/service has problems. If people put Capital up
to start up the business, they have created some part of the value intrinsic in
that profit. Many successful people have failed many business start ups before
acheiving success, it ain't an automatic thing as Marxism would imply. This
isn't the 19th Century anymore.

The basic 3 tenets of Marxism, Dialectical Materialism, The Labor Theory
of Value and Historical Materialism are all poor constructs theoretically and
impossible to make work practically. What they did serve to do however was to
give certain people a philosophical excuse for committing the greatest
atrocities and inhumanities to one's fellow man in the 20th Century.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?

Look, "surplus value" (as Marxist theory calls all profit) is NOT as is
claimed a result of stealing from labor, all profit is NOT a result of the
laborer in a factory's effort alone. Let's say you go out and buy a metal
lathe and start a small business, now YOU own the "means of production".
Someone has to market your company to find customers, manage the work that
comes in and order more raw materials, keep the books, answer the phone, it's
not just the guy turning the lathe who creates a product of value it's a team
effort. Marx and Engels claim otherwise and they are just plain wrong.
Successful business models are based on cooperation, not conflict, and profit
is a reflection of the value that is being created by that group process. In a
successful business model, after everyone is paid fairly there should still
profit left over, and if this is not the case a business is not healthy, either
the business model or product/service has problems. If people put Capital up
to start up the business, they have created some part of the value intrinsic in
that profit. Many successful people have failed many business start ups before
acheiving success, it ain't an automatic thing as Marxism would imply. This
isn't the 19th Century anymore.

The basic 3 tenets of Marxism, Dialectical Materialism, The Labor Theory
of Value and Historical Materialism are all poor constructs theoretically and
impossible to make work practically. What they did serve to do however was to
give certain people a philosophical excuse for committing the greatest
atrocities and inhumanities to one's fellow man in the 20th Century.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?

Look, "surplus value" (as Marxist theory calls all profit) is NOT as is
claimed a result of stealing from labor, all profit is NOT a result of the
laborer in a factory's effort alone. Let's say you go out and buy a metal
lathe and start a small business, now YOU own the "means of production".
Someone has to market your company to find customers, manage the work that
comes in and order more raw materials, keep the books, answer the phone, it's
not just the guy turning the lathe who creates a product of value it's a team
effort. Marx and Engels claim otherwise and they are just plain wrong.
Successful business models are based on cooperation, not conflict, and profit
is a reflection of the value that is being created by that group process. In a
successful business model, after everyone is paid fairly there should still
profit left over, and if this is not the case a business is not healthy, either
the business model or product/service has problems. If people put Capital up
to start up the business, they have created some part of the value intrinsic in
that profit. Many successful people have failed many business start ups before
acheiving success, it ain't an automatic thing as Marxism would imply. This
isn't the 19th Century anymore.

The basic 3 tenets of Marxism, Dialectical Materialism, The Labor Theory
of Value and Historical Materialism are all poor constructs theoretically and
impossible to make work practically. What they did serve to do however was to
give certain people a philosophical excuse for committing the greatest
atrocities and inhumanities to one's fellow man in the 20th Century.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

In article ,
ospam (WillStG) wrote:

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?


Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

In article ,
ospam (WillStG) wrote:

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?


Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

In article ,
ospam (WillStG) wrote:

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?


Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

From: ospam

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?

Look, "surplus value" (as Marxist theory calls all profit) is NOT as is
claimed a result of stealing from labor, all profit is NOT a result of the
laborer in a factory's effort alone. Let's say you go out and buy a metal
lathe and start a small business, now YOU own the "means of production".
Someone has to market your company to find customers, manage the work that
comes in and order more raw materials, keep the books, answer the phone, it's
not just the guy turning the lathe who creates a product of value it's a team
effort. Marx and Engels claim otherwise and they are just plain wrong.
Successful business models are based on cooperation, not conflict, and profit
is a reflection of the value that is being created by that group process. In
a
successful business model, after everyone is paid fairly there should still
profit left over, and if this is not the case a business is not healthy,
either
the business model or product/service has problems. If people put Capital up
to start up the business, they have created some part of the value intrinsic
in
that profit. Many successful people have failed many business start ups
before
acheiving success, it ain't an automatic thing as Marxism would imply. This
isn't the 19th Century anymore.

The basic 3 tenets of Marxism, Dialectical Materialism, The Labor
Theory
of Value and Historical Materialism are all poor constructs theoretically and
impossible to make work practically. What they did serve to do however was
to
give certain people a philosophical excuse for committing the greatest
atrocities and inhumanities to one's fellow man in the 20th Century.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

I just forgot to say regarding created value, "the whole is greater than
the sum of the parts"... It's true in a band and it's true in business. And
people who subscribe to materialist views (which does include some capitalists
as well! ) just fail to understand this basic principle.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

From: ospam

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?

Look, "surplus value" (as Marxist theory calls all profit) is NOT as is
claimed a result of stealing from labor, all profit is NOT a result of the
laborer in a factory's effort alone. Let's say you go out and buy a metal
lathe and start a small business, now YOU own the "means of production".
Someone has to market your company to find customers, manage the work that
comes in and order more raw materials, keep the books, answer the phone, it's
not just the guy turning the lathe who creates a product of value it's a team
effort. Marx and Engels claim otherwise and they are just plain wrong.
Successful business models are based on cooperation, not conflict, and profit
is a reflection of the value that is being created by that group process. In
a
successful business model, after everyone is paid fairly there should still
profit left over, and if this is not the case a business is not healthy,
either
the business model or product/service has problems. If people put Capital up
to start up the business, they have created some part of the value intrinsic
in
that profit. Many successful people have failed many business start ups
before
acheiving success, it ain't an automatic thing as Marxism would imply. This
isn't the 19th Century anymore.

The basic 3 tenets of Marxism, Dialectical Materialism, The Labor
Theory
of Value and Historical Materialism are all poor constructs theoretically and
impossible to make work practically. What they did serve to do however was
to
give certain people a philosophical excuse for committing the greatest
atrocities and inhumanities to one's fellow man in the 20th Century.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

I just forgot to say regarding created value, "the whole is greater than
the sum of the parts"... It's true in a band and it's true in business. And
people who subscribe to materialist views (which does include some capitalists
as well! ) just fail to understand this basic principle.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

From: ospam

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?

Look, "surplus value" (as Marxist theory calls all profit) is NOT as is
claimed a result of stealing from labor, all profit is NOT a result of the
laborer in a factory's effort alone. Let's say you go out and buy a metal
lathe and start a small business, now YOU own the "means of production".
Someone has to market your company to find customers, manage the work that
comes in and order more raw materials, keep the books, answer the phone, it's
not just the guy turning the lathe who creates a product of value it's a team
effort. Marx and Engels claim otherwise and they are just plain wrong.
Successful business models are based on cooperation, not conflict, and profit
is a reflection of the value that is being created by that group process. In
a
successful business model, after everyone is paid fairly there should still
profit left over, and if this is not the case a business is not healthy,
either
the business model or product/service has problems. If people put Capital up
to start up the business, they have created some part of the value intrinsic
in
that profit. Many successful people have failed many business start ups
before
acheiving success, it ain't an automatic thing as Marxism would imply. This
isn't the 19th Century anymore.

The basic 3 tenets of Marxism, Dialectical Materialism, The Labor
Theory
of Value and Historical Materialism are all poor constructs theoretically and
impossible to make work practically. What they did serve to do however was
to
give certain people a philosophical excuse for committing the greatest
atrocities and inhumanities to one's fellow man in the 20th Century.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

I just forgot to say regarding created value, "the whole is greater than
the sum of the parts"... It's true in a band and it's true in business. And
people who subscribe to materialist views (which does include some capitalists
as well! ) just fail to understand this basic principle.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

So George,
I've never heard the actual story about your disenchantment with
Christianity..care to elaborate....and if you can...keep it so I can follow.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

So George,
I've never heard the actual story about your disenchantment with
Christianity..care to elaborate....and if you can...keep it so I can follow.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

So George,
I've never heard the actual story about your disenchantment with
Christianity..care to elaborate....and if you can...keep it so I can follow.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

So George,
I've never heard the actual story about your disenchantment with
Christianity..care to elaborate....and if you can...keep it so I can follow.

do a google its all out there.many many times
G

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

So George,
I've never heard the actual story about your disenchantment with
Christianity..care to elaborate....and if you can...keep it so I can follow.

do a google its all out there.many many times
G

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

So George,
I've never heard the actual story about your disenchantment with
Christianity..care to elaborate....and if you can...keep it so I can follow.

do a google its all out there.many many times
G

Blind Joni" wrote in message
... So George,
I've never heard the actual story about your disenchantment with
Christianity..care to elaborate....and if you can...keep it so I can
follow.

I'm not answering for George. As George Carlin said, organized religion is
responsible for some 197,000,000 deaths since the inception of Christianity.

Enough said?

I find nothing wrong with being religious, just something wrong with HAVING
religion, particularly religion that allows one to specificy that others are
wrong, or others are so different that they don't deserve the grace of god.
If one places the onus on me to be religious based on their precepts, then
either I'm going to hell with their help, or I'm simply a man that has my
own ideas about what religion consists of, and I have my own method of
meeting my god. Am I religious?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

Blind Joni" wrote in message
... So George,
I've never heard the actual story about your disenchantment with
Christianity..care to elaborate....and if you can...keep it so I can
follow.

I'm not answering for George. As George Carlin said, organized religion is
responsible for some 197,000,000 deaths since the inception of Christianity.

Enough said?

I find nothing wrong with being religious, just something wrong with HAVING
religion, particularly religion that allows one to specificy that others are
wrong, or others are so different that they don't deserve the grace of god.
If one places the onus on me to be religious based on their precepts, then
either I'm going to hell with their help, or I'm simply a man that has my
own ideas about what religion consists of, and I have my own method of
meeting my god. Am I religious?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Roger W. Norman"

I'm not answering for George. As George Carlin said, organized religion is
responsible for some 197,000,000 deaths since the inception of Christianity.

Enough said?

And as I said, as all of human civilization has been based on religion
that's a _bull****_ way to indict Christianity, or religion in general.

I mean if you want to go down that road how about Atheism being
responsible for the death by mass murder and genocide of over 300 Million
people in the 20th Century? Maybe George Carlin would like claim as an atheist
or nihilist responsibility for the brutality of the State Atheism of Mao,
Stalin, Pol Pot or Kim Il Sung?

And secular civilization is a relatively new phenomena, but if you want to
evaluate based on more recent history would you like to argue the French
Revolution for example was more humane and less bloody than the religious based
"Glorious Revolution" in England? Or should people who beleive in Atlantis and
Lemuria be responsible for the Nazis killing 6 million Jews? (the Nazi
leadership had a religious beleif that "The Aryan Race" were pure descendents
of Atlantian survivors).

It's all weak reasoning Roger.

I find nothing wrong with being religious, just something wrong with HAVING
religion, particularly religion that allows one to specificy that others are
wrong, or others are so different that they don't deserve the grace of god.
If one places the onus on me to be religious based on their precepts, then
either I'm going to hell with their help, or I'm simply a man that has my own
ideas about what religion consists of, and I have my own method of
meeting my god. Am I religious?

Well if you are meeting God personally it doesn't really matter much what
people say about your faith, does it? What others think only matters when you
are looking for approval, or if you beleive a relationship with a particular
person or institution is needed for personal growth or to gain God's approval.
Why does it matter to you what "The Church" has to say if you're sure of where
you stand with the Allmighty? I mean it ain't Protestantism unless you can
start your own denomination. Hey, you're giving a sermon right here, ain't ya?
You'll fit right in.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"Roger W. Norman"

I'm not answering for George. As George Carlin said, organized religion is
responsible for some 197,000,000 deaths since the inception of Christianity.

Enough said?

And as I said, as all of human civilization has been based on religion
that's a _bull****_ way to indict Christianity, or religion in general.

I mean if you want to go down that road how about Atheism being
responsible for the death by mass murder and genocide of over 300 Million
people in the 20th Century? Maybe George Carlin would like claim as an atheist
or nihilist responsibility for the brutality of the State Atheism of Mao,
Stalin, Pol Pot or Kim Il Sung?

And secular civilization is a relatively new phenomena, but if you want to
evaluate based on more recent history would you like to argue the French
Revolution for example was more humane and less bloody than the religious based
"Glorious Revolution" in England? Or should people who beleive in Atlantis and
Lemuria be responsible for the Nazis killing 6 million Jews? (the Nazi
leadership had a religious beleif that "The Aryan Race" were pure descendents
of Atlantian survivors).

It's all weak reasoning Roger.

I find nothing wrong with being religious, just something wrong with HAVING
religion, particularly religion that allows one to specificy that others are
wrong, or others are so different that they don't deserve the grace of god.
If one places the onus on me to be religious based on their precepts, then
either I'm going to hell with their help, or I'm simply a man that has my own
ideas about what religion consists of, and I have my own method of
meeting my god. Am I religious?

Well if you are meeting God personally it doesn't really matter much what
people say about your faith, does it? What others think only matters when you
are looking for approval, or if you beleive a relationship with a particular
person or institution is needed for personal growth or to gain God's approval.
Why does it matter to you what "The Church" has to say if you're sure of where
you stand with the Allmighty? I mean it ain't Protestantism unless you can
start your own denomination. Hey, you're giving a sermon right here, ain't ya?
You'll fit right in.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
Hey, you're giving a sermon right here, ain't ya?
You'll fit right in.

Nah, I don't think I preach. I don't think I do anything but bring forward
my gut reactions to these threads. My uncle, who was previously the
Inspector General of all SAC installations had a major stroke, but I
continued to tell my dad that his brother was more than equal to the
situation, and after 6 weeks of coma like subsistence, came out of it and
proceeded to exceed all the doctor's expectations. Do I take credit for
that? NO. I just knew my uncle's resolve and knew that there was no
situation that he wouldn't be able to work his way out of. The doctors are
amazed at his recovery. I am not. Were I to take credit for his
improvement then perhaps I would be preaching.

I'm the youngest of the family that fought the war in WWII and it's
offspring. I have no doubts about my elders and their resolve. I have no
doubts about their ability to face their maker in any manner they choose. I
have not doubts about my facing my maker. Being alive, I know that I will
be dead. That I am still alive is a miracle in and of itself.

The worst that happens to me is I'm wrong and then I'm simply wrong.
Whatever happens afterwards is up to someone else than me. Most religion
based people seem to think that they can have an effect on the outcome.
They can't. Once someone realizes that, it's up to them and that's what
having religion is all about.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Roger W. Norman"

I'm not answering for George. As George Carlin said, organized
religion is
responsible for some 197,000,000 deaths since the inception of
Christianity.

Enough said?

And as I said, as all of human civilization has been based on religion
that's a _bull****_ way to indict Christianity, or religion in general.

I mean if you want to go down that road how about Atheism being
responsible for the death by mass murder and genocide of over 300 Million
people in the 20th Century? Maybe George Carlin would like claim as an
atheist
or nihilist responsibility for the brutality of the State Atheism of Mao,
Stalin, Pol Pot or Kim Il Sung?

And secular civilization is a relatively new phenomena, but if you
want to
evaluate based on more recent history would you like to argue the French
Revolution for example was more humane and less bloody than the religious
based
"Glorious Revolution" in England? Or should people who beleive in Atlantis
and
Lemuria be responsible for the Nazis killing 6 million Jews? (the Nazi
leadership had a religious beleif that "The Aryan Race" were pure
descendents
of Atlantian survivors).

It's all weak reasoning Roger.

I find nothing wrong with being religious, just something wrong with
HAVING
religion, particularly religion that allows one to specificy that others
are
wrong, or others are so different that they don't deserve the grace of
god.
If one places the onus on me to be religious based on their precepts, then
either I'm going to hell with their help, or I'm simply a man that has my
own
ideas about what religion consists of, and I have my own method of
meeting my god. Am I religious?

Well if you are meeting God personally it doesn't really matter much
what
people say about your faith, does it? What others think only matters when
you
are looking for approval, or if you beleive a relationship with a
particular
person or institution is needed for personal growth or to gain God's
approval.
Why does it matter to you what "The Church" has to say if you're sure of
where
you stand with the Allmighty? I mean it ain't Protestantism unless you can
start your own denomination.
Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"WillStG" wrote in message
...
Hey, you're giving a sermon right here, ain't ya?
You'll fit right in.

Nah, I don't think I preach. I don't think I do anything but bring forward
my gut reactions to these threads. My uncle, who was previously the
Inspector General of all SAC installations had a major stroke, but I
continued to tell my dad that his brother was more than equal to the
situation, and after 6 weeks of coma like subsistence, came out of it and
proceeded to exceed all the doctor's expectations. Do I take credit for
that? NO. I just knew my uncle's resolve and knew that there was no
situation that he wouldn't be able to work his way out of. The doctors are
amazed at his recovery. I am not. Were I to take credit for his
improvement then perhaps I would be preaching.

I'm the youngest of the family that fought the war in WWII and it's
offspring. I have no doubts about my elders and their resolve. I have no
doubts about their ability to face their maker in any manner they choose. I
have not doubts about my facing my maker. Being alive, I know that I will
be dead. That I am still alive is a miracle in and of itself.

The worst that happens to me is I'm wrong and then I'm simply wrong.
Whatever happens afterwards is up to someone else than me. Most religion
based people seem to think that they can have an effect on the outcome.
They can't. Once someone realizes that, it's up to them and that's what
having religion is all about.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Roger W. Norman"

I'm not answering for George. As George Carlin said, organized
religion is
responsible for some 197,000,000 deaths since the inception of
Christianity.

Enough said?

And as I said, as all of human civilization has been based on religion
that's a _bull****_ way to indict Christianity, or religion in general.

I mean if you want to go down that road how about Atheism being
responsible for the death by mass murder and genocide of over 300 Million
people in the 20th Century? Maybe George Carlin would like claim as an
atheist
or nihilist responsibility for the brutality of the State Atheism of Mao,
Stalin, Pol Pot or Kim Il Sung?

And secular civilization is a relatively new phenomena, but if you
want to
evaluate based on more recent history would you like to argue the French
Revolution for example was more humane and less bloody than the religious
based
"Glorious Revolution" in England? Or should people who beleive in Atlantis
and
Lemuria be responsible for the Nazis killing 6 million Jews? (the Nazi
leadership had a religious beleif that "The Aryan Race" were pure
descendents
of Atlantian survivors).

It's all weak reasoning Roger.

I find nothing wrong with being religious, just something wrong with
HAVING
religion, particularly religion that allows one to specificy that others
are
wrong, or others are so different that they don't deserve the grace of
god.
If one places the onus on me to be religious based on their precepts, then
either I'm going to hell with their help, or I'm simply a man that has my
own
ideas about what religion consists of, and I have my own method of
meeting my god. Am I religious?

Well if you are meeting God personally it doesn't really matter much
what
people say about your faith, does it? What others think only matters when
you
are looking for approval, or if you beleive a relationship with a
particular
person or institution is needed for personal growth or to gain God's
approval.
Why does it matter to you what "The Church" has to say if you're sure of
where
you stand with the Allmighty? I mean it ain't Protestantism unless you can
start your own denomination.
Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

ospam (WillStG) wrote in message ...
"Roger W. Norman"

I'm not answering for George. As George Carlin said, organized religion is
responsible for some 197,000,000 deaths since the inception of Christianity.

Enough said?

And as I said, as all of human civilization has been based on religion
that's a _bull****_ way to indict Christianity, or religion in general.

I mean if you want to go down that road how about Atheism being
responsible for the death by mass murder and genocide of over 300 Million
people in the 20th Century?

That is a Myth, where did you get these Stats, Pat Robertson?


Maybe George Carlin would like claim as an atheist
or nihilist responsibility for the brutality of the State Atheism of
Mao,

japanese Imperialists killed more and used Biological warfare in an un
prosecuted violation of the Geneva convention against China.

Mao brought stability in 1949.. and created the China we see today.
the one America has no problem dealing with; Walmart , America's
Largest Employer, with 70% of their products made in China.

Stalin,

You would all be spaking German if it weren't for Stalin. America
joined that war late in the game.

Pol Pot

an American creation, left to be cleaned up by the Vietnamese People's
Army... I thought you knew some history?

or Kim Il Sung?

You might want to read some history about Korea. Kim Sung Il fought
against Japanese imperialists like yourself. Korea would be United
today if it weren't for the interferance of America. IT;s the Puppet
Government of the South.. who only got elections in 1987, that are
constantly screwing up the reunification process. Talk to some people
who have visited the DMZ in Korea. It's Trigger Happy Americans that
make that a live fire zone. The American supported governments with
the aid of US forces killed student protesters en masse in the 1950s.



And secular civilization is a relatively new phenomena, but if you want to
evaluate based on more recent history would you like to argue the French
Revolution for example was more humane and less bloody than the religious based
"Glorious Revolution" in England? Or should people who beleive in Atlantis and
Lemuria be responsible for the Nazis killing 6 million Jews? (the Nazi
leadership had a religious beleif that "The Aryan Race" were pure descendents
of Atlantian survivors).


Or Americans like Henry Ford, and IBM, who gave unending support to
help this Holocaust
Does his religion really matter? I think IBM might state that tthey
are a Christian Company, based on "Christian Values".



It's all weak reasoning Roger.

I find nothing wrong with being religious, just something wrong with HAVING
religion, particularly religion that allows one to specificy that others are
wrong, or others are so different that they don't deserve the grace of god.
If one places the onus on me to be religious based on their precepts, then
either I'm going to hell with their help, or I'm simply a man that has my own
ideas about what religion consists of, and I have my own method of
meeting my god. Am I religious?

Well if you are meeting God personally it doesn't really matter much what
people say about your faith, does it? What others think only matters when you
are looking for approval, or if you beleive a relationship with a particular
person or institution is needed for personal growth or to gain God's approval.
Why does it matter to you what "The Church" has to say if you're sure of where
you stand with the Allmighty? I mean it ain't Protestantism unless you can
start your own denomination. Hey, you're giving a sermon right here, ain't ya?
You'll fit right in.



Maybe you are joking, or maybe your view of spirituality is that
shallow, or used as a flag of convieniance William J Miho.

ospam (WillStG) wrote in message ...
"Roger W. Norman"

I'm not answering for George. As George Carlin said, organized religion is
responsible for some 197,000,000 deaths since the inception of Christianity.

Enough said?

And as I said, as all of human civilization has been based on religion
that's a _bull****_ way to indict Christianity, or religion in general.

I mean if you want to go down that road how about Atheism being
responsible for the death by mass murder and genocide of over 300 Million
people in the 20th Century?

That is a Myth, where did you get these Stats, Pat Robertson?


Maybe George Carlin would like claim as an atheist
or nihilist responsibility for the brutality of the State Atheism of
Mao,

japanese Imperialists killed more and used Biological warfare in an un
prosecuted violation of the Geneva convention against China.

Mao brought stability in 1949.. and created the China we see today.
the one America has no problem dealing with; Walmart , America's
Largest Employer, with 70% of their products made in China.

Stalin,

You would all be spaking German if it weren't for Stalin. America
joined that war late in the game.

Pol Pot

an American creation, left to be cleaned up by the Vietnamese People's
Army... I thought you knew some history?

or Kim Il Sung?

You might want to read some history about Korea. Kim Sung Il fought
against Japanese imperialists like yourself. Korea would be United
today if it weren't for the interferance of America. IT;s the Puppet
Government of the South.. who only got elections in 1987, that are
constantly screwing up the reunification process. Talk to some people
who have visited the DMZ in Korea. It's Trigger Happy Americans that
make that a live fire zone. The American supported governments with
the aid of US forces killed student protesters en masse in the 1950s.



And secular civilization is a relatively new phenomena, but if you want to
evaluate based on more recent history would you like to argue the French
Revolution for example was more humane and less bloody than the religious based
"Glorious Revolution" in England? Or should people who beleive in Atlantis and
Lemuria be responsible for the Nazis killing 6 million Jews? (the Nazi
leadership had a religious beleif that "The Aryan Race" were pure descendents
of Atlantian survivors).


Or Americans like Henry Ford, and IBM, who gave unending support to
help this Holocaust
Does his religion really matter? I think IBM might state that tthey
are a Christian Company, based on "Christian Values".



It's all weak reasoning Roger.

I find nothing wrong with being religious, just something wrong with HAVING
religion, particularly religion that allows one to specificy that others are
wrong, or others are so different that they don't deserve the grace of god.
If one places the onus on me to be religious based on their precepts, then
either I'm going to hell with their help, or I'm simply a man that has my own
ideas about what religion consists of, and I have my own method of
meeting my god. Am I religious?

Well if you are meeting God personally it doesn't really matter much what
people say about your faith, does it? What others think only matters when you
are looking for approval, or if you beleive a relationship with a particular
person or institution is needed for personal growth or to gain God's approval.
Why does it matter to you what "The Church" has to say if you're sure of where
you stand with the Allmighty? I mean it ain't Protestantism unless you can
start your own denomination. Hey, you're giving a sermon right here, ain't ya?
You'll fit right in.



Maybe you are joking, or maybe your view of spirituality is that
shallow, or used as a flag of convieniance William J Miho.

Nmm wrote:

Talk to some people
who have visited the DMZ in Korea. It's Trigger Happy Americans that
make that a live fire zone.

It's a scary place--the tension makes both sides a little nuts.



The American supported governments with
the aid of US forces killed student protesters en masse in the 1950s.

Hell, they were using pepper gas on students (and a few of us journalists) in 1988. When the Germans found out the Koreans were using the stuff on civilians, they stopped selling it to them. A Phillipine source took over the supply.

Nmm wrote:

Talk to some people
who have visited the DMZ in Korea. It's Trigger Happy Americans that
make that a live fire zone.

It's a scary place--the tension makes both sides a little nuts.



The American supported governments with
the aid of US forces killed student protesters en masse in the 1950s.

Hell, they were using pepper gas on students (and a few of us journalists) in 1988. When the Germans found out the Koreans were using the stuff on civilians, they stopped selling it to them. A Phillipine source took over the supply.

"Johnston West" wrote in message
om...
Bush and Company are clearly breaking the law and the spirit of
American Justice...... Isn't it time to seriously consider Impeaching
this reckless fool before he totally trashes the Constitution.

Actually, at this point I believe that drawing up articles of impeachment
would strengthen his constituency and bring the moderate and even
conservatives back into the fold, rather than allowing them to float away as
is obviously happening now. Better to leave it to a vote, hopefully one
with a real paper trail, and if he gets re-elected (well, elected for the
first time! g), then present the articles of impeachment. But at that
point the neo-cons will still have their grips on the government. So the
only way to really look at it is to help get out the vote that will take
this man out of politics forever, and take his neo-con group out with him.
Time to remove the trash.

So, in order for you to point your worries in the right direction, check and
see if your locality is going to be using computer kiosk voting and then see
if there are any checks and balances and reliable paper trails for voting
verification. Right now it seems like most of that is being left out in
Florida, California and even right here in Maryland.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

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Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:44:50 GMT
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On 2004-05-25 (Nmm) said:
Anyway the Capitalism of the 21st Century and that of the
19th Century are different in many regards. Some of the most
basic differences is that most large Corporations are publically
owned (by stocks) and most of those stocks rest with the richest
10% maybe 5%. except for those Ponzi scheme .com stocks, and Ponzi
schemes like ENRON, etc.
Said ponzi schemes are mainly designed to separate the average rube
from his retirement money. Hey my broker told me this was the next
big thing now hrrumph

and there are anti-monopoly
laws and rules about anti-competitive practices, the "dumping" of
products into markets, etc.
You mean like the breakup of Altec-Lansing?
OH wait doesn't Harmon Intl own both Altec and JBL now.. Don't they
also own Studer, UREI, Soundcraft, Allen & Heath... and most of the
other companies we have to deal with?

All them piddling details. DOn't confuse him with the facts now.

Will's right, there are such safeguards, but the big guns can work
around such minor details as the rules and regs.



Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



Don't waive your rights while waving your flag.

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:44:50 EDT
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:44:50 GMT
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1074110


On 2004-05-25 (Nmm) said:
Anyway the Capitalism of the 21st Century and that of the
19th Century are different in many regards. Some of the most
basic differences is that most large Corporations are publically
owned (by stocks) and most of those stocks rest with the richest
10% maybe 5%. except for those Ponzi scheme .com stocks, and Ponzi
schemes like ENRON, etc.
Said ponzi schemes are mainly designed to separate the average rube
from his retirement money. Hey my broker told me this was the next
big thing now hrrumph

and there are anti-monopoly
laws and rules about anti-competitive practices, the "dumping" of
products into markets, etc.
You mean like the breakup of Altec-Lansing?
OH wait doesn't Harmon Intl own both Altec and JBL now.. Don't they
also own Studer, UREI, Soundcraft, Allen & Heath... and most of the
other companies we have to deal with?

All them piddling details. DOn't confuse him with the facts now.

Will's right, there are such safeguards, but the big guns can work
around such minor details as the rules and regs.



Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--



Don't waive your rights while waving your flag.