[Romeo Rondeau[_4_]]

hank alrich wrote:
Laurence Payne wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 08:55:30 -0700, (hank alrich)
wrote:

Back when Apple bought Emagic and dropped Windows support, word on the
Logic list, into which several of the top Emagic folks posted, was that
the Windows side was 30% of their business and 70% of their tech support
load.
Well, they would say that, wouldn't they? :-)

Yes. OTOH the people saying it came across as straight shooters, and I
considered it an insight into why they might want to sell Emagic to
Apple in the first place: to get out from under spending the majority of
their support resources on a minority of their customers.

Too bad they didn't make a better product. Other software companies
don't have a problem supporting Windows, what gives with them? I
remember when Opcode ported Vision to the Windows platform. It was
horrible, just horrible.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 16, 1:31*pm, "Richard Crowley" wrote:
"Laurence Payne" *wrote ...

(hank alrich) wrote:

Back when Apple bought Emagic and dropped Windows support, word on the
Logic list, into which several of the top Emagic folks posted, was that
the Windows side was 30% of their business and 70% of their tech support
load.

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they? *:-)

It seems quite plausible to me. *Uniform, closed, systems are
always easier to support. I do it myself with MSwindows
systems. *It is so much easier to support 100 PCs when they
all exactly the same (hardware and software).


It's what made Apple a success when computers first came into homes.
Sure, PCs were less expensive, and yes, programmers and peripheral
manufacturers scoffed at the rules and toolbox commandments Apple
wrote in stone. But if you wanted to plug in a new modem or hard
drive and have it functioning as soon as you powered it on, that was
the only way to do it. And they could barely conflict with any
shareware you had, because a Mac program had to be written so rigidly
to these rules that only a certain kind of programmer wrote for it.
It was no fun for a novice, with 50 Windows programs under their belt,
to try (though you could purchase the programming tools). This isn't
a "Macs are great, Windows...etc" rant, but when you make it so easy
for anyone to make a program that boots up it's bound to screw up
people's computers. Compatibility and cross system friendliness can't
come at too great a price. "Closed system" isn't a curseword. At
least not in any way that I care about if it makes my tools work.

[hank alrich]

Romeo Rondeau wrote:

hank alrich wrote:
Laurence Payne wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 08:55:30 -0700, (hank alrich)
wrote:

Back when Apple bought Emagic and dropped Windows support, word on the
Logic list, into which several of the top Emagic folks posted, was that
the Windows side was 30% of their business and 70% of their tech support
load.
Well, they would say that, wouldn't they? :-)

Yes. OTOH the people saying it came across as straight shooters, and I
considered it an insight into why they might want to sell Emagic to
Apple in the first place: to get out from under spending the majority of
their support resources on a minority of their customers.

Too bad they didn't make a better product.

It's a fine product. I use it almost daily. Too bad it apparently takes
considerably more resources to support a more wide-open platform. That
is not surprising to me. And I don't mind companies choosing what they
do and do not intend to support.

Other software companies
don't have a problem supporting Windows, what gives with them?

Plenty of companies invest huge resources supproting Windows. Folks like
Metric Halo, who make wonderful kit, choose not to bother.

I remember when Opcode ported Vision to the Windows platform. It was
horrible, just horrible.

So what? It's history now. g

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Romeo Rondeau[_4_]]

tric Halo, who make wonderful kit, choose not to bother.

I remember when Opcode ported Vision to the Windows platform. It was
horrible, just horrible.

So what? It's history now. g

My point was that they only half-heartedly supported the platform. 30
Mac people and 3 Windows people. If you want the big $$$, you gotta use
more resources. Vision was the most popular sequencer on the Mac
platform at one time. They wrongly figured that all they had to do was
kludge together a port and they would take over the Windows market as
well. They ended up with a ****ty product that was buggy and required
all kinds of tech support and ultimately ended up dragging them down.
Sometimes it's good for companies to stay in their little niche,
especially when they can't hack it... big fish in a small pond kinda thing.

[hank alrich]

Romeo Rondeau wrote:

tric Halo, who make wonderful kit, choose not to bother.

I remember when Opcode ported Vision to the Windows platform. It was
horrible, just horrible.

So what? It's history now. g

My point was that they only half-heartedly supported the platform. 30
Mac people and 3 Windows people.

Did Vision tank before or after Gibson bought Opcode?

If you want the big $$$, you gotta use
more resources.

Does everyone need to be motivated by greed?

Vision was the most popular sequencer on the Mac
platform at one time. They wrongly figured that all they had to do was
kludge together a port and they would take over the Windows market as
well. They ended up with a ****ty product that was buggy and required
all kinds of tech support and ultimately ended up dragging them down.

So what you're saying is they should never have ****ed with trying to
serve the Windows market.

Sometimes it's good for companies to stay in their little niche,
especially when they can't hack it... big fish in a small pond kinda thing.

How well do you play bassoon or oboe? Or do you stick with the easy
stuff, like guitar and bass guitar, hang in the simpler niches? That's
waht I do.

Metric Halo can hack whatever they choose to. Their coding chops are
obvious. They choose not to bother with the Windows market. I imagine
it's hard enough to keep up with the Mac side, given their mission
statement of trying to make kit that does not become obsolete. So far
they are pulling that off amazingly. The box I bought in 2002 can be
easily upgraded for very reasonable cost to the level of the most recent
offerings if I want the power of the new hardware. It needn't be
upgraded at all beyond firmware updates to take care of all OSX changes
made in the last six years. I admire their approach.

Sure, lots of folks would like to run MH gear under Windows. That is not
the MH mission and if the Emagic guys were right, I can understand not
wanting to take on something that might offer a larger potential gross
revenue stream at the cost of vastly greater support expense. The return
per sale is less and the time and effort must be redirected from
invention to mop up. If 30% of your sales consume 70% of your support
resources, the return per sale is nowhere near as rewarding as it is
from the 70% of your sales that require only 30% of the support cost.

In Austin the proprietor of Anderson's Coffee was interviewed. It's a
very popular local shop. He learned coffee roasting from the same person
who taught the Starbuck's fellow, at the same time. When asked why he'd
not gone for the bigtime like the Starbuck's guy he replied, "I never
wanted to lead an army. I just enjoy roasting coffee".

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Romeo Rondeau[_4_]]

hank alrich wrote:
Romeo Rondeau wrote:

tric Halo, who make wonderful kit, choose not to bother.
I remember when Opcode ported Vision to the Windows platform. It was
horrible, just horrible.
So what? It's history now. g
My point was that they only half-heartedly supported the platform. 30
Mac people and 3 Windows people.

Did Vision tank before or after Gibson bought Opcode?

Before.


If you want the big $$$, you gotta use
more resources.

Does everyone need to be motivated by greed?

Not individually, but collectively they are :-)


Vision was the most popular sequencer on the Mac
platform at one time. They wrongly figured that all they had to do was
kludge together a port and they would take over the Windows market as
well. They ended up with a ****ty product that was buggy and required
all kinds of tech support and ultimately ended up dragging them down.

So what you're saying is they should never have ****ed with trying to
serve the Windows market.

If they weren't gonna do it right, yes.


Sometimes it's good for companies to stay in their little niche,
especially when they can't hack it... big fish in a small pond kinda thing.

How well do you play bassoon or oboe? Or do you stick with the easy
stuff, like guitar and bass guitar, hang in the simpler niches? That's
waht I do.

I don't play the oboe or bassoon well, I play bass these days instead of
what I used to play most often which was guitar. I can however play the
viola... don't get a whole lot of calls for it. I go where the money is
like you do... I guess that's kinda my point. I guess you and I are
motivated by greed :-)


Metric Halo can hack whatever they choose to. Their coding chops are
obvious. They choose not to bother with the Windows market. I imagine
it's hard enough to keep up with the Mac side, given their mission
statement of trying to make kit that does not become obsolete. So far
they are pulling that off amazingly. The box I bought in 2002 can be
easily upgraded for very reasonable cost to the level of the most recent
offerings if I want the power of the new hardware. It needn't be
upgraded at all beyond firmware updates to take care of all OSX changes
made in the last six years. I admire their approach.

I'm not saying their "chops" are any good, if they aren't experienced in
developing for Windows, they are right to stay out of it, regardless of
"chops"


Sure, lots of folks would like to run MH gear under Windows. That is not
the MH mission and if the Emagic guys were right, I can understand not
wanting to take on something that might offer a larger potential gross
revenue stream at the cost of vastly greater support expense. The return
per sale is less and the time and effort must be redirected from
invention to mop up. If 30% of your sales consume 70% of your support
resources, the return per sale is nowhere near as rewarding as it is
from the 70% of your sales that require only 30% of the support cost.

So, they're motivated by greed? :-) I'm saying that if their customers
had unoccupied that much resources in needing support, they may have now
quite gotten the whole Windows thing down and were probably right in
staying out it.


In Austin the proprietor of Anderson's Coffee was interviewed. It's a
very popular local shop. He learned coffee roasting from the same person
who taught the Starbuck's fellow, at the same time. When asked why he'd
not gone for the bigtime like the Starbuck's guy he replied, "I never
wanted to lead an army. I just enjoy roasting coffee".

Usually the second guy says something like that :-) Roasting coffee
didn't get Starbuck's where they are, good business decisions got them
there. But you knew that :-)

[hank alrich]

Romeo Rondeau wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

Metric Halo can hack whatever they choose to. Their coding chops are
obvious. They choose not to bother with the Windows market. I imagine
it's hard enough to keep up with the Mac side, given their mission
statement of trying to make kit that does not become obsolete. So far
they are pulling that off amazingly. The box I bought in 2002 can be
easily upgraded for very reasonable cost to the level of the most recent
offerings if I want the power of the new hardware. It needn't be
upgraded at all beyond firmware updates to take care of all OSX changes
made in the last six years. I admire their approach.

I'm not saying their "chops" are any good, if they aren't experienced in
developing for Windows, they are right to stay out of it, regardless of
"chops"

They have experience of a level that allows them to see that developing
for Windows puts one face to face with a morass of hardware
possibilities that require tremendous support effort, and they don't
want to go there.

In Austin the proprietor of Anderson's Coffee was interviewed. It's a
very popular local shop. He learned coffee roasting from the same person
who taught the Starbuck's fellow, at the same time. When asked why he'd
not gone for the bigtime like the Starbuck's guy he replied, "I never
wanted to lead an army. I just enjoy roasting coffee".

Usually the second guy says something like that :-) Roasting coffee
didn't get Starbuck's where they are, good business decisions got them
there. But you knew that :-)

Jamie has a wonderful store and business, a relaxed life, and all the
money he needs. There are valuable lessons in his approach. And his
coffee is over the top better than Starbucks will ever hope to be.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Romeo Rondeau[_4_]]

hank alrich wrote:
Romeo Rondeau wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

Metric Halo can hack whatever they choose to. Their coding chops are
obvious. They choose not to bother with the Windows market. I imagine
it's hard enough to keep up with the Mac side, given their mission
statement of trying to make kit that does not become obsolete. So far
they are pulling that off amazingly. The box I bought in 2002 can be
easily upgraded for very reasonable cost to the level of the most recent
offerings if I want the power of the new hardware. It needn't be
upgraded at all beyond firmware updates to take care of all OSX changes
made in the last six years. I admire their approach.
I'm not saying their "chops" are any good, if they aren't experienced in
developing for Windows, they are right to stay out of it, regardless of
"chops"

They have experience of a level that allows them to see that developing
for Windows puts one face to face with a morass of hardware
possibilities that require tremendous support effort, and they don't
want to go there.

I think we're saying the same thing here...


In Austin the proprietor of Anderson's Coffee was interviewed. It's a
very popular local shop. He learned coffee roasting from the same person
who taught the Starbuck's fellow, at the same time. When asked why he'd
not gone for the bigtime like the Starbuck's guy he replied, "I never
wanted to lead an army. I just enjoy roasting coffee".
Usually the second guy says something like that :-) Roasting coffee
didn't get Starbuck's where they are, good business decisions got them
there. But you knew that :-)

Jamie has a wonderful store and business, a relaxed life, and all the
money he needs. There are valuable lessons in his approach. And his
coffee is over the top better than Starbucks will ever hope to be.

Well, sometimes there are benefits to that approach. I personally drink
many cups of coffee from many places that to me are better than
Starbucks. But that's just me... I don't really like burnt coffee :-)

[hank alrich]

Romeo Rondeau wrote:

hank alrich wrote:
Romeo Rondeau wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

Metric Halo can hack whatever they choose to. Their coding chops are
obvious. They choose not to bother with the Windows market. I imagine
it's hard enough to keep up with the Mac side, given their mission
statement of trying to make kit that does not become obsolete. So far
they are pulling that off amazingly. The box I bought in 2002 can be
easily upgraded for very reasonable cost to the level of the most recent
offerings if I want the power of the new hardware. It needn't be
upgraded at all beyond firmware updates to take care of all OSX changes
made in the last six years. I admire their approach.
I'm not saying their "chops" are any good, if they aren't experienced in
developing for Windows, they are right to stay out of it, regardless of
"chops"

They have experience of a level that allows them to see that developing
for Windows puts one face to face with a morass of hardware
possibilities that require tremendous support effort, and they don't
want to go there.

I think we're saying the same thing here...

It's bound to happen sometimes, even if I am a ****ing worm and you're
an asshole.

In Austin the proprietor of Anderson's Coffee was interviewed. It's a
very popular local shop. He learned coffee roasting from the same person
who taught the Starbuck's fellow, at the same time. When asked why he'd
not gone for the bigtime like the Starbuck's guy he replied, "I never
wanted to lead an army. I just enjoy roasting coffee".
Usually the second guy says something like that :-) Roasting coffee
didn't get Starbuck's where they are, good business decisions got them
there. But you knew that :-)

Jamie has a wonderful store and business, a relaxed life, and all the
money he needs. There are valuable lessons in his approach. And his
coffee is over the top better than Starbucks will ever hope to be.

Well, sometimes there are benefits to that approach. I personally drink
many cups of coffee from many places that to me are better than
Starbucks. But that's just me... I don't really like burnt coffee :-)

Anderson's sells lots more beans and grindin's than prepped coffee.
Great little place, with rather attractive help.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Romeo Rondeau[_4_]]

I think we're saying the same thing here...

It's bound to happen sometimes, even if I am a ****ing worm and you're
an asshole.

Sounds like a medical condition. :-)


In Austin the proprietor of Anderson's Coffee was interviewed. It's a
very popular local shop. He learned coffee roasting from the same person
who taught the Starbuck's fellow, at the same time. When asked why he'd
not gone for the bigtime like the Starbuck's guy he replied, "I never
wanted to lead an army. I just enjoy roasting coffee".
Usually the second guy says something like that :-) Roasting coffee
didn't get Starbuck's where they are, good business decisions got them
there. But you knew that :-)
Jamie has a wonderful store and business, a relaxed life, and all the
money he needs. There are valuable lessons in his approach. And his
coffee is over the top better than Starbucks will ever hope to be.
Well, sometimes there are benefits to that approach. I personally drink
many cups of coffee from many places that to me are better than
Starbucks. But that's just me... I don't really like burnt coffee :-)

Anderson's sells lots more beans and grindin's than prepped coffee.
Great little place, with rather attractive help.

I'll have to stop in, I'll be in Austin next month.

[Aphelion]

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:46:53 +0100, "nickm" wrote:

The fact of the matter is that often F/Wire audio interfaces have real
problems on the PC platform. I hang out on a number of DAW forums and
F/Wire issues on the PC are far more common than F/Wire issues on the
Mac. And I'm not playing "some silly Mac vs PC game". I'm a PC user with
no particular interest in switching to the Mac. They are both just tools
and we pick the platform we're most comfortable with.

Bill.

Well Bill......

Guess what, all new Macs are PC's and all you have to do is visit any
number of audio forums to find out that Apple computers are having
problems with both Firewire and USB2.

I'm running a Hackentosh, homebuilt PC running Leopard 10.5.3 and
Windows XP_Pro. Using a $20 Texes Instruments based firewire card that
works equally well on both systems. (Purchased Tiger and Leopard for
use on a G5)

What you are saying may have been true 5 years ago, but no longer.

Also, lrt's not forget the Apple Airport release that hosed virtually
all newer Mac's trying to run audio applications. Only took Apple
three months to release a fix, in the meantime you had to turn Airport
off to run a sequencer.

Ap