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#122
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Dude, the name is Roger.
-- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/ "playon" wrote in message news  On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:51:57 -0400, "Roger W. Norman" wrote: I don't know where you come from Al, How about you chill with your ever-present condenscending attitude Mike? I come the USA... I've been playing professionally since the early 70s, and I still play out all the time. I've played in tons of bands and been a hired sideman on tons of stuff. I didn't retire into being a grumpy old engineer, I still do it. So don't lecture me about what it means to be a musician. but the fact is that R&R bands didn't play outside of the band without having the potential to break the band up. Maybe in the 50s and 60s, when were in highschool that was true. But good musicians have always been interested in playing with other good musicians. And it really depends on the band... some bands are open to this, some aren't. I don't buy your generalizations. I teach guitar to teenagers once & awhile, and some of them are in 2 or 3 different groups at the same time. This comes from the earliest movement in R&R, and still persists today. I'm not saying that groups don't "regroup", but the fact is if they have to regroup, they probably lost the "group" in the first place. A miniscule but important point in my R&R development was when I got called down in a band practice for actually listening to and trying to improve my playing based on recordings I was doing at practices in 1972. Now I may be stupid, but one thing stands out most to me as a player, and that's I want to be the best I can be. For another member of the band to be disgruntled because I was exceeding his abilities is something I've seen time and again in rock bands. My experience has been different. Sure people have petty jealousies and there are always funny dynamics in any group... but please don't mistake your own experiences years ago with everyone elses, or suggest that what happened to you is *the way it is*. Embracing the accomplishments of a musician within a group is a good thing. It's not mutually exclusive Mike. Most rock bands don't agree with stepping outside of the lines and learning something more. It generally requires a band to break up and then you have Velvet Revolver. Guns & Roses broke up because their lead singer is a nut, not because Slash started playing with some other guys. The guitar player finally got fed up after years of waiting and started a different group. I agree that V.R. aren't very interesting but that's not the point. What more can I say? Little, I hope. Al |
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#123
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Wait a minute. Wasn't riding in on an ass some kind of religious
fulfillment of a prophecy? -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/ "Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1113650205k@trad... In article writes: It's not his take on things, it's the attitude... the old schoolteacher. Or maybe, the old-school teacher. But you were quoting Roger (in your message) when you wrote "Mike." I have a new attitude: **** you, and the ass you rode in on. How's that for new-school? -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
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#124
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Sorry my bad... I was replying to Roger.
And I took a few days to get back to you. Now that I've thought about it, my reply is "Oh yeah?"! Listen, the idea is to share ideas which generally come from personal experiences. I've dealt with hundreds of quality jazz players, and maybe only about 150 decent rock players, but the fact is that you simply don't see a lot of rock players out experimenting with different players because it sets up some level of unease in a "band". Who in Skynyrd has been playing with other bands in the past 20 years? If your experiences are different, then so be it, but I somehow doubt that your differing experience actually makes my experience somehow wrong. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/ "playon" wrote in message ... On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:33:06 GMT, "Lorin David Schultz" wrote: "playon" wrote: How about you chill with your ever-present condenscending attitude Mike? Mike didn't write the post you're upset about. Roger did. Al |
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#125
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I think Mike is pretty much my age, so that makes us both old farts. And we
both live right around DC, so that probably makes us stupid old farts, but life goes on regardless. But I must say that I found one of the worst rock and roll experiences I ever suffered was a company party with a band of farts even older than I trying to do a passable job and Johnny Be Good. So maybe rock and roll isn't done, but if that's what one ends up coming to expect, it probably should be! g Now chill out Al. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/ "playon" wrote in message ... On 16 Apr 2005 07:04:57 -0400, (Mike Rivers) wrote: In article writes: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:51:57 -0400, "Roger W. Norman" wrote: I don't know where you come from Al, How about you chill with your ever-present condenscending attitude Mike? Do I sense some animosity here? Roger wrote that, not me. I still think you're a narrowminded jerk sometimes, but I wouldn't say that. No sir, not me. OK Mike... sorry about the confusion. And has long as we're being honest, I think your a narrowminded old fart sometimes but I know that you're still a good guy at heart... let's hug! Al |
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#126
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Actually, R&R has evolved over time. It's branched out, settled somewhat in
the new country music, and spawned enough of it's own offshoots that one can't even say that there isn't some rock influence in rap, for instance. But the idea of a new rock group taking the world by storm is certainly a thing of the past. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/ "J. Roberts" wrote in message om... "J_West" wrote... If R & R isn't dead, it's certainly on life support...... As you may have noticed for the first time in 50 years the charts really contain no Roll and Roll music....... RIP ?? I'm not exactly sure what people are lamenting. Is it that there aren't bands around now who sound like the 70's rockers we all know and love? Because there are plenty of bands these days rehashing the 70's rock sound. Jet, Franz Ferdinand, The Killers: All very popular and all very 70's-derivitive. Is it that R&R has not continued to grow and develop in new and interesting ways? Because there are plenty of bands that have taken rock to the next step. Radiohead and Modest Mouse are two that immediately come to mind. They sound nothing like "classic rock", but that's a good thing, isn't it? Or is it purely an album sales or "Billboard charts" thing? If rock is dead, then I guess classical is dead, jazz is dead, blues is dead, and pretty-much all music made outside of the U.S. and Europe is dead. Personally, I don't really care whether it's dead. As long as it sounds good, I'll still listen to it. |
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#127
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I'm just glad to see rappers with musicians on stage. Gotta keep live
performance musicians around because they will never get a penny from album sales! g -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/ "reddred" wrote in message ... "Jonny Durango" wrote in message ... Eminem? Give me a break. The dude just does the same rap over and over. Suggested Hip-Hop and Rap listening: Grandmaster Flash - The Message Boogie Down Productions - By All Means Necessary Busta Rhymes - The Coming Public Enemy - Fear of a Black Planet Wu-Tang Clan - Enter the Wu-tang (36 Chambers) Ice T - O.G. Brotha Lynch Hung - Season of da Siccness Ice Cube - AmeriKKKas Most Wanted Dre - The Chronic (1991), the new stuff pales The Roots - Phrenology Mobb Deep - Hell On Earth Jungle Brothers - Straight Out the Jungle Boot Camp Clik - The Chosen Few Cypress Hill - Cypress Hill Dr. Octagon - Dr. Octagonecologyst or Kool Keith - Black Elvis Jurassic 5 - Jurassic 5 Mos Def - Black Star AND Black on Both Sides Blackalicious - Blazing Arrow and for the open minded: Chuck Brown - Live at the 9:30 Madlib - Shades of Blue And here's some 'old guys' who just don't get it: The Last Poets - (any of them) Kain - The Blue Guerilla What's all this 'old vs. new' stuff anyway? Rap is mainstream, and 25 years old as a very popular form of music - pretty much where Rock was in 1980. And I'll take Mos Def or Roots any day instead of overhyped commercial rap (c-rap) like Eminem or 2pac. jb |
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#128
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In article ,
playon wrote: If you think rock n roll as Chuck Berry or the Clash, yeah Hip Hop is different. But as far as its agressive attitude and its function in the youth culture, it's the same. There's an ethnic element that you might be neglecting in your observations. Hip Hop tends to *divide* youth culture along other social boundaries. |
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#129
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In article ,
Scott Dorsey wrote: They rioted in Paris after the first performance of "The Rite Of Spring"! It's good to stir the pot, cause it make a tasty dish. Somehow, I doubt that Igor packed the audience with "screamers". No, it was all the naked people on stage. I don't get it. Russia and France both had very casual attitudes regarding nudity in art or in social contexts during that period (and today). |
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#130
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james wrote:
In article , playon wrote: If you think rock n roll as Chuck Berry or the Clash, yeah Hip Hop is different. But as far as its agressive attitude and its function in the youth culture, it's the same. There's an ethnic element that you might be neglecting in your observations. Hip Hop tends to *divide* youth culture along other social boundaries. How so? Hip-hop is worldwide. If anything, it unifies youth culture of various social boundaries. -JC |
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#131
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JC Martin wrote:
How so? Hip-hop is worldwide. If anything, it unifies youth culture of various social boundaries. At least the ho's and poppers anyway. |
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#132
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Joe Sensor wrote:
JC Martin wrote: How so? Hip-hop is worldwide. If anything, it unifies youth culture of various social boundaries. At least the ho's and poppers anyway. Funny...but why I'm not hip-hop's biggest follower, it hardly divides youth. Just the opposite. Now what value it brings to society is a different argument. -JC |
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#133
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On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:39:20 -0400, "Roger W. Norman"
wrote: Sorry my bad... I was replying to Roger. And I took a few days to get back to you. Now that I've thought about it, my reply is "Oh yeah?"! Listen, the idea is to share ideas which generally come from personal experiences. I've dealt with hundreds of quality jazz players, and maybe only about 150 decent rock players, but the fact is that you simply don't see a lot of rock players out experimenting with different players because it sets up some level of unease in a "band". Who in Skynyrd has been playing with other bands in the past 20 years? If your experiences are different, then so be it, but I somehow doubt that your differing experience actually makes my experience somehow wrong. Your personal experience may well be correct, but your post came across to me as a pronouncement of truth. Al |
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#134
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On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:47:13 -0400, "Roger W. Norman"
wrote: Actually, R&R has evolved over time. It's branched out, settled somewhat in the new country music, and spawned enough of it's own offshoots that one can't even say that there isn't some rock influence in rap, for instance. But the idea of a new rock group taking the world by storm is certainly a thing of the past. That again is my point -- the reason that a group cannot take the world by storm today, is because the size of the demographic is smaller. The boomers dominated so much that whatever they liked quickly influenced the mainstream... that can't happen with today's 20-and-30-somthings, because the critical mass just isn't there. Al |
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#136
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On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:02:12 -0500, Joe Sensor
wrote: JC Martin wrote: How so? Hip-hop is worldwide. If anything, it unifies youth culture of various social boundaries. At least the ho's and poppers anyway. Thanks for your vaguely racist and stereotypical remarks. |
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#137
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playon wrote:
At least the ho's and poppers anyway. Thanks for your vaguely racist and stereotypical remarks. Just commenting on the majority of the subject matter. |
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#138
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james wrote: In article , Scott Dorsey wrote: They rioted in Paris after the first performance of "The Rite Of Spring"! It's good to stir the pot, cause it make a tasty dish. Somehow, I doubt that Igor packed the audience with "screamers". No, it was all the naked people on stage. I don't get it. Russia and France both had very casual attitudes regarding nudity in art or in social contexts during that period (and today). It was the Pagan orientation, not the nudity. The strangeness of the music to those ears probably had something to do with it too. Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
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#139
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JC Martin wrote: How so? Hip-hop is worldwide. If anything, it unifies youth culture of various social boundaries. Right. I hardly know any white kids any more that don't long to be black. Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
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#140
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I was really talking more about the distribution changes that curtail a
group's ability to step up to national and international levels than about demographics. It still pans out the same way, and personally I have no problems with the idea that musicians need to get back to playing music for a living. And I have no problems with the loss of arena rock in that smaller venues will be where even well known groups will be performing. Nothing like Little Feat at the Warner Theater or Supertramp at Lisner Auditorium. Our problem here in the DC area is that venues are falling off quickly and local authorities are taking away the ability of newer places to incorporate music into their business plans. One DC supervisor wanted to limit dance floors to 100 sq ft. That's smaller than my control room and roughly equates to a couple dancing in a telephone booth. And if they don't simply take music away from local businesses, they are relegating live music areas to warehousing zoning rather than the street corner bar and restaurant that was the mainstay of so many great musicians here. So, in the case of DC, it may just be that 20 and 30 somethings aren't really able to get out to venues that truly have live music and really don't understand the energy generated between a group and the crowd. It's a symbiosis that's necessary to gaining great experience in the art of performance and personally I think it's lacking in a lot of group's ability to come across on record. So that's two decidedly different reasons that actually work in conjunction to limit people's access to rock. We seem to be more back to the original days of rock where Allan Freed would travel with a group of maybe 6 to 12 groups all having a shot or two on stage, which is what I see a lot of here in DC. It's kind of a version of live radio where one group couldn't possibly carry an entire night. But then again, I'm not certain that any of the groups involved COULD carry an entire night anyway. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/ "playon" wrote in message ... On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:47:13 -0400, "Roger W. Norman" wrote: Actually, R&R has evolved over time. It's branched out, settled somewhat in the new country music, and spawned enough of it's own offshoots that one can't even say that there isn't some rock influence in rap, for instance. But the idea of a new rock group taking the world by storm is certainly a thing of the past. That again is my point -- the reason that a group cannot take the world by storm today, is because the size of the demographic is smaller. The boomers dominated so much that whatever they liked quickly influenced the mainstream... that can't happen with today's 20-and-30-somthings, because the critical mass just isn't there. Al |
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#141
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"Roger W. Norman" wrote...
But the idea of a new rock group taking the world by storm is certainly a thing of the past. What qualifies as "taking the world by storm"? Are we just talking album and ticket sales or the effect on music and the popular culture in general? The last rock group I can think of that I would say took the world by storm would probably be Nirvana. That was about a dozen years ago, which isn't really all that long in the grand scheme of things. It'll happen again. Guaranteed. |
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#142
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#143
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On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:04:24 -0400, "reddred"
wrote: "Mike Rivers" wrote in message I agree. Let's keep the rock in rock'n'roll. That live musicianship is still a pillar of the style, but it doesn't seem to be translating to newer styles. No further comment necessary? But let's not forget roll! Chris Hornbeck "Hum is more than just not knowing the words." -ha |
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#144
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"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message ... Our problem here in the DC area is that venues are falling off quickly and local authorities are taking away the ability of newer places to incorporate music into their business plans. One DC supervisor wanted to limit dance floors to 100 sq ft. That's smaller than my control room and roughly equates to a couple dancing in a telephone booth. And if they don't simply take music away from local businesses, they are relegating live music areas to warehousing zoning rather than the street corner bar and restaurant that was the mainstay of so many great musicians here. So, in the case of DC, it may just be that 20 and 30 somethings aren't really able to get out to venues that truly have live music and really don't understand the energy generated between a group and the crowd. And so the demand dies down. Over here in the valley along I-81 there are fewer and fewer places to play every year. It's a viscious circle - clubs stop doing live music, and demand for it dies, and clubs stop doing live music, etc., Part of it I know is economic - hiring a DJ is cheaper. The problem is that people don't seem to mind. I guess the DJ is better able to respond to requests. I wonder how much of it is some moral crusade though - for example, city counclis and fire departments shutting down dance clubs. 'They say they're just dancing but we know their drinking cough syrup and doing it, we know because we smoked grass and did it before Reagan got elected and we found Jesus...' Whatever the reason, small venues are turning away from live music, I've heard it's that way all over the country. That's why I feel artists need a bigger stake in recordings, and it bothers me when people argue that bands should just play out more. Play where? It's a symbiosis that's necessary to gaining great experience in the art of performance and personally I think it's lacking in a lot of group's ability to come across on record. Sure would make it cheaper to record if bands could just come in and play, too. jb |
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#145
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On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:04:24 -0400, "reddred"
wrote: Could be that 'rock and roll' and 'rock' are really two very different things. I think that "rock" is just rock n roll that takes itself too seriously. Al |
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#146
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On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:21:00 -0400, "reddred"
wrote: And so the demand dies down. Over here in the valley along I-81 there are fewer and fewer places to play every year. It's a viscious circle - clubs stop doing live music, and demand for it dies, and clubs stop doing live music, etc., Part of it I know is economic - hiring a DJ is cheaper. The problem is that people don't seem to mind. I guess the DJ is better able to respond to requests. I think it's a cultural tipping point... most young people have no tradition of having live music in their lives. When they go out to dance, they listen to a DJ, they have DJs at their high school dances and at private parties. And when they get married, they don't bother with hiring a band, they don't even miss it. Baby boomers who used to support live music aren't going out as much as they grow older. I talk to musicians from all over the country and everyone is saying how much live music is dying on the vine. For me locally, the wedding thing has really shrunk, although this might also partly be about the economy. There are other venues around, but you have to be creative and flexible if you want to keep working. Oh yeah, and not mind being paid wages that pay about what you were making 15 years ago. Al |
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#147
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and Mick, Keith, Jimmy Page, Pete Townsend, et. al. are laughing with
joy every time they look at their bank accounts jump up, when a new music format comes out... and they get the best laugh...ka-ching- can you say millions, with an M ??? $$$$$$$$$$ |
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#148
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I think it's muti-millions by now!
T. "trippingtoo8track" wrote in message oups.com... and Mick, Keith, Jimmy Page, Pete Townsend, et. al. are laughing with joy every time they look at their bank accounts jump up, when a new music format comes out... and they get the best laugh...ka-ching- can you say millions, with an M ??? $$$$$$$$$$ |
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#149
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"playon" wrote in message
... I think it's a cultural tipping point... most young people have no tradition of having live music in their lives. When they go out to dance, they listen to a DJ, they have DJs at their high school dances and at private parties. And when they get married, they don't bother with hiring a band, they don't even miss it. Baby boomers who used to support live music aren't going out as much as they grow older. I talk to musicians from all over the country and everyone is saying how much live music is dying on the vine. For me locally, the wedding thing has really shrunk, although this might also partly be about the economy. There are other venues around, but you have to be creative and flexible if you want to keep working. Oh yeah, and not mind being paid wages that pay about what you were making 15 years ago. I've been watching this problem creeping ahead since the Beatles. At this point, I think all genres of music in America are in trouble. We're really talking about the same wages as 40 years ago with no adjustment made for the 5x inflation that has occurred. We're also talking about bottom-feeding and exploitation of "wanna-bees" at the local level that makes a major label look like an arts-support charity. Performing music in the US is rapidly becoming an avocation of the upper middle-class. Unless you are a former Mouseketeer or other movie or television star, live regional or local performances have been the source most successful artists in every genre I'm aware of. The main live performance element of DJ culture is rapping so the success of that genre shouldn't be a surprise. I don't think recorded music or recorded music sound quality are likely to improve until a large proportion of the public regains live musical performances as their reference point. -- Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined! 615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com |
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#150
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In article ,
says... I don't think recorded music or recorded music sound quality are likely to improve until a large proportion of the public regains live musical performances as their reference point. Wow. Talk about hitting the heart of the matter; this is a good straight shot! My question after this would be: How do we re-educate the public as to the value of live human performance? Promotional and profit machines that exist have led them away from that, so between the "I want it now and free" crowd, and the suits who would rather sequence everything/squash it/put a pretty face on it, it's very difficult to get people's attention focused on a musical perfomance itself, and the beautiful nuances that occur during such. Record company execs certainly aren't going to change their minds, when the latest manufactured pop diva is still chunking change into their machine. Their iron grip on the public via the promo avenues they can afford seems difficult to break. So how does this pendulum swing back the other way? Or does it? -- ---Michael (of APP)... http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/au...plantmusic.htm |
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#151
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On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:56:57 GMT, "Bob Olhsson"
wrote: "playon" wrote in message .. . I think it's a cultural tipping point... most young people have no tradition of having live music in their lives. When they go out to dance, they listen to a DJ, they have DJs at their high school dances and at private parties. And when they get married, they don't bother with hiring a band, they don't even miss it. Baby boomers who used to support live music aren't going out as much as they grow older. I talk to musicians from all over the country and everyone is saying how much live music is dying on the vine. For me locally, the wedding thing has really shrunk, although this might also partly be about the economy. There are other venues around, but you have to be creative and flexible if you want to keep working. Oh yeah, and not mind being paid wages that pay about what you were making 15 years ago. I've been watching this problem creeping ahead since the Beatles. At this point, I think all genres of music in America are in trouble. We're really talking about the same wages as 40 years ago with no adjustment made for the 5x inflation that has occurred. We're also talking about bottom-feeding and exploitation of "wanna-bees" at the local level that makes a major label look like an arts-support charity. Performing music in the US is rapidly becoming an avocation of the upper middle-class. Unless you are a former Mouseketeer or other movie or television star, live regional or local performances have been the source most successful artists in every genre I'm aware of. The main live performance element of DJ culture is rapping so the success of that genre shouldn't be a surprise. I don't think recorded music or recorded music sound quality are likely to improve until a large proportion of the public regains live musical performances as their reference point. In addition I think fewer and fewer people even know what instruments really sound like, ie, not coming thru a mike and some speakers. Al |
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#152
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"playon" wrote in message
... I don't think recorded music or recorded music sound quality are likely to improve until a large proportion of the public regains live musical performances as their reference point. In addition I think fewer and fewer people even know what instruments really sound like, ie, not coming thru a mike and some speakers. Yep. And when I go out to do acoustic bass gigs, it's almost scary, how many kids (and some of their parents) have to ask what it is... "What is that thing? Is it a cello?" "No, ma'am. It's a lifestyle." -- Dave Martin DMA, Inc Nashville, TN |
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#153
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In article ,
says... Michael wrote... My question after this would be: How do we re-educate the public as to the value of live human performance? "The people don't come because you grandiose mother****ers don't play **** that they like. If you played the **** that they like, then people would come, simple as that." - Shadow Henderson from "Mo' Better Blues" (1990) An interesting sentiment, but not always true. I don't know how many times I've heard, "Man, I didn't know stuff like that even existed!" Mostly because of how efficient the promotional machines are nowadays. Anything off the beaten path has nothing written or said about it at all. -- ---Michael (of APP)... http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/au...plantmusic.htm |
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#154
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:12:03 GMT, "Dave Martin"
wrote: "playon" wrote in message .. . I don't think recorded music or recorded music sound quality are likely to improve until a large proportion of the public regains live musical performances as their reference point. In addition I think fewer and fewer people even know what instruments really sound like, ie, not coming thru a mike and some speakers. Yep. And when I go out to do acoustic bass gigs, it's almost scary, how many kids (and some of their parents) have to ask what it is... "What is that thing? Is it a cello?" "No, ma'am. It's a lifestyle." Even electric guitars and drums, most people hear them miked all the time... Al |
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