O'Neill..
Having a hard time reading your posts as the quoted text and your reply all run
together...maybe a server quirk?


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

: S O'Neill
Great, you agree with my first sentence, the one you left out or the
quote. Now read the part you left in. What about that?

Engels was pretty accurate I think in his criticisms of 19th Century
Capitalism. But criticism however accurate does not mean that one has a better
idea or any sort of solution for a problem. Unless one is a big fan of
genocide, totalitarianism and mass murder of course - and history attests this
is true. FWIW the Christian Socialist contemporaries of Marx and Engels also
had accurate criticisms of Capitalism's problems, had they been listened to or
more effective as voices for reform Marxist revolution and all the misery that
followed might never have happened.

Anyway the Capitalism of the 21st Century and that of the 19th Century are
different in many regards. Some of the most basic differences is that most
large Corporations are publically owned (by stocks) and there are anti-monopoly
laws and rules about anti-competitive practices, the "dumping" of products into
markets, etc.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

ospam (WillStG) wrote in message ...
: S O'Neill
Great, you agree with my first sentence, the one you left out or the
quote. Now read the part you left in. What about that?

Engels was pretty accurate I think in his criticisms of 19th Century
Capitalism. But criticism however accurate does not mean that one has a better
idea or any sort of solution for a problem. Unless one is a big fan of
genocide, totalitarianism and mass murder of course -

when done in the name of Democracy.. ie: School of the Americas (
which is still open! ) It's OK though

Poppa Doc was a kind leader... and South Korea wasn't ready for
elections til 1987 ( since there so called liberation in 1952)
And the Democratically elected govvernment in Venezuala of Hugo
Chavez, isn't really that democratic.. compared to the american
supported narco-thugs, who suspended the constitution, electoral
system, and civil rights. It's a good thing for them that upon their
capture they were guarenteed the rights provided to them by the
constitution that they tried to suspend.


and history attests this
is true. FWIW the Christian Socialist contemporaries of Marx and Engels also
had accurate criticisms of Capitalism's problems, had they been listened to or
more effective as voices for reform Marxist revolution and all the misery that
followed might never have happened.


like the more than 200% increase in teburculosis that has occured in
the former Soviet Union. Or the elimination of the pension system that
they had all worked for.


Anyway the Capitalism of the 21st Century and that of the 19th Century are
different in many regards. Some of the most basic differences is that most
large Corporations are publically owned (by stocks)


and most of those stocks rest with the richest 10% maybe 5%.
except for those Ponzi scheme .com stocks, and Ponzi schemes like
ENRON, etc.


and there are anti-monopoly
laws and rules about anti-competitive practices, the "dumping" of products into
markets, etc.



You mean like the breakup of Altec-Lansing?

OH wait doesn't Harmon Intl own both Altec and JBL now.. Don't they
also own Studer, UREI, Soundcraft, Allen & Heath... and most of the
other companies we have to deal with?

ospam (WillStG) wrote in message ...
: S O'Neill
Great, you agree with my first sentence, the one you left out or the
quote. Now read the part you left in. What about that?

Engels was pretty accurate I think in his criticisms of 19th Century
Capitalism. But criticism however accurate does not mean that one has a better
idea or any sort of solution for a problem. Unless one is a big fan of
genocide, totalitarianism and mass murder of course -

when done in the name of Democracy.. ie: School of the Americas (
which is still open! ) It's OK though

Poppa Doc was a kind leader... and South Korea wasn't ready for
elections til 1987 ( since there so called liberation in 1952)
And the Democratically elected govvernment in Venezuala of Hugo
Chavez, isn't really that democratic.. compared to the american
supported narco-thugs, who suspended the constitution, electoral
system, and civil rights. It's a good thing for them that upon their
capture they were guarenteed the rights provided to them by the
constitution that they tried to suspend.


and history attests this
is true. FWIW the Christian Socialist contemporaries of Marx and Engels also
had accurate criticisms of Capitalism's problems, had they been listened to or
more effective as voices for reform Marxist revolution and all the misery that
followed might never have happened.


like the more than 200% increase in teburculosis that has occured in
the former Soviet Union. Or the elimination of the pension system that
they had all worked for.


Anyway the Capitalism of the 21st Century and that of the 19th Century are
different in many regards. Some of the most basic differences is that most
large Corporations are publically owned (by stocks)


and most of those stocks rest with the richest 10% maybe 5%.
except for those Ponzi scheme .com stocks, and Ponzi schemes like
ENRON, etc.


and there are anti-monopoly
laws and rules about anti-competitive practices, the "dumping" of products into
markets, etc.



You mean like the breakup of Altec-Lansing?

OH wait doesn't Harmon Intl own both Altec and JBL now.. Don't they
also own Studer, UREI, Soundcraft, Allen & Heath... and most of the
other companies we have to deal with?

: S O'Neill
Great, you agree with my first sentence, the one you left out or the
quote. Now read the part you left in. What about that?

Engels was pretty accurate I think in his criticisms of 19th Century
Capitalism. But criticism however accurate does not mean that one has a better
idea or any sort of solution for a problem. Unless one is a big fan of
genocide, totalitarianism and mass murder of course - and history attests this
is true. FWIW the Christian Socialist contemporaries of Marx and Engels also
had accurate criticisms of Capitalism's problems, had they been listened to or
more effective as voices for reform Marxist revolution and all the misery that
followed might never have happened.

Anyway the Capitalism of the 21st Century and that of the 19th Century are
different in many regards. Some of the most basic differences is that most
large Corporations are publically owned (by stocks) and there are anti-monopoly
laws and rules about anti-competitive practices, the "dumping" of products into
markets, etc.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

WillStG wrote:
S O'Neill BRBR
What Marx actually
said was that we couldn't get there until after the world had
experienced the excesses of capitalism. And the corporate world (a
ruthless and brutal ruling elite itself) is rushing headlong to
prove Marx was RIGHT with every turn BRBR

That the Marxist States were merely in a "transitional state of socialism"
on their way to the perfect Marxist State may be true to Marx's writings, but
it fails to explain *why* that transitional period is neccessary for Nations
that have basically no relationships with the outside world, and after they
have murdered virtually all "reactionary elements" in their society. Oh yeah,
the lack of faith in Dialectical Materialism of the just one or two
reactionaries left, that's the problem, find them and kill them too for "they
are the reason you suffer"!

Yeah, just murder and starve a few/couple hundred million people to death,
and we'll all be living in "Paradise"... That's the claim, and it's not just
what the USSR did in the name of Marx, it's what they ALL did. And for a
faith in a Prophet of a materialistic philosophy with far less of a basis in
reason and heart than that of a God based religion. Very superstitious this
atheistic faith, and extremely bloody.

Great, you agree with my first sentence, the one you left out or the
quote. Now read the part you left in. What about that?

S O'Neill BRBR
What Marx actually
said was that we couldn't get there until after the world had
experienced the excesses of capitalism. And the corporate world (a
ruthless and brutal ruling elite itself) is rushing headlong to
prove Marx was RIGHT with every turn BRBR

That the Marxist States were merely in a "transitional state of socialism"
on their way to the perfect Marxist State may be true to Marx's writings, but
it fails to explain *why* that transitional period is neccessary for Nations
that have basically no relationships with the outside world, and after they
have murdered virtually all "reactionary elements" in their society. Oh yeah,
the lack of faith in Dialectical Materialism of the just one or two
reactionaries left, that's the problem, find them and kill them too for "they
are the reason you suffer"!

Yeah, just murder and starve a few/couple hundred million people to death,
and we'll all be living in "Paradise"... That's the claim, and it's not just
what the USSR did in the name of Marx, it's what they ALL did. And for a
faith in a Prophet of a materialistic philosophy with far less of a basis in
reason and heart than that of a God based religion. Very superstitious this
atheistic faith, and extremely bloody.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

WillStG wrote:

Because Marxism while it claims to be "Socialistic" in values in fact
just substituted one ruling elite for the previous one, and a far
more ruthless and britual class of rulers at that.

No, that's what the USSR did in the name of Marx. What Marx actually
said was that we couldn't get there until after the world had
experienced the excesses of capitalism. And the corporate world (a
ruthless and brutal ruling elite itself) is rushing headlong to
prove Marx was RIGHT with every turn.

nmm wrote:



And it's all over the news now that the Berg Video was a fake.. Wake up.


Where?


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Bob Cain wrote in message ...
nmm wrote:



And it's all over the news now that the Berg Video was a fake.. Wake up.


Where?


Bob


http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/new...ervice_id=2020


Al Jazeera has the video, clips and story. They also mention : that
the videoo was not available from an arab only site, but american news
somehow downloaded it.

(Nmm) wrote in message . com...
Bob Cain wrote in message ...
nmm wrote:



And it's all over the news now that the Berg Video was a fake.. Wake up.


Where?


Bob


http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/new...ervice_id=2020


Al Jazeera has the video, clips and story. They also mention : that
the videoo was not available from an arab only site, but american news
somehow downloaded it.

I saw the Berg video. It made me physically ill....... But as bad and
frightening as it was, I was wondering why it wasn't bloodier. No
spurting blood or large pools as you would expect for this sort of
trauma.
........Otherwise I assumed that it was real.

J_West

(Johnston West) wrote in message . com...
(Nmm) wrote in message . com...
Bob Cain wrote in message ...
nmm wrote:



And it's all over the news now that the Berg Video was a fake.. Wake up.


Where?


Bob


http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/new...ervice_id=2020


Al Jazeera has the video, clips and story. They also mention : that
the videoo was not available from an arab only site, but american news
somehow downloaded it.

I saw the Berg video. It made me physically ill....... But as bad and
frightening as it was, I was wondering why it wasn't bloodier. No
spurting blood or large pools as you would expect for this sort of
trauma.
.......Otherwise I assumed that it was real.

J_West


Certainly does make one wonder. I wouldn't put ANYTHING past this administration.

(Johnston West) wrote in message . com...
(Nmm) wrote in message . com...
Bob Cain wrote in message ...
nmm wrote:



And it's all over the news now that the Berg Video was a fake.. Wake up.


Where?


Bob


http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/new...ervice_id=2020


Al Jazeera has the video, clips and story. They also mention : that
the videoo was not available from an arab only site, but american news
somehow downloaded it.

I saw the Berg video. It made me physically ill....... But as bad and
frightening as it was, I was wondering why it wasn't bloodier. No
spurting blood or large pools as you would expect for this sort of
trauma.
.......Otherwise I assumed that it was real.

J_West


Certainly does make one wonder. I wouldn't put ANYTHING past this administration.

WOW !



http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/15/22827/0477

WOW !



http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/15/22827/0477

(Nmm) wrote in message . com...
Bob Cain wrote in message ...
nmm wrote:



And it's all over the news now that the Berg Video was a fake.. Wake up.


Where?


Bob


http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/new...ervice_id=2020


Al Jazeera has the video, clips and story. They also mention : that
the videoo was not available from an arab only site, but american news
somehow downloaded it.

I saw the Berg video. It made me physically ill....... But as bad and
frightening as it was, I was wondering why it wasn't bloodier. No
spurting blood or large pools as you would expect for this sort of
trauma.
........Otherwise I assumed that it was real.

J_West

Bob Cain wrote in message ...
nmm wrote:



And it's all over the news now that the Berg Video was a fake.. Wake up.


Where?


Bob


http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/new...ervice_id=2020


Al Jazeera has the video, clips and story. They also mention : that
the videoo was not available from an arab only site, but american news
somehow downloaded it.

nmm wrote:



And it's all over the news now that the Berg Video was a fake.. Wake up.


Where?


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

the ideals of
Democracy
will perish.




so this is all about forcing our "democracy" on a soviergn nation?
What a bunch of assholes Americans are, if this is the root of this war.
Maybe we should force our national religion on them as well.
George

the ideals of
Democracy
will perish.




so this is all about forcing our "democracy" on a soviergn nation?
What a bunch of assholes Americans are, if this is the root of this war.
Maybe we should force our national religion on them as well.
George

Will's right, there are such safeguards, but the big guns can work
around such minor details as the rules and regs.

I didn't say that Capitalism doesn't still have problems or that abuses of
the system don't exist. I said 19th century and 21st Century capitlaism are
different - and this is true. And public ownership of large companies - the
"Democratization" of capital - puts the lie to much of what Marx and Engels
predicted.

In any event the problems of our economic system in no way prove that any
other system - or having no system at all - is a better way. Again, merely
criticizing something doesn't mean you have a solution or anything better at
all to offer. That there were people stupid enough to think different only led
to genocide, mass murder and totalitarianism; under the Nazis, under the
Fascists, and under the banner of Marxist revolution.

For all it's problems Capitalism still works best as an economic model,
socialism has even more problems then Captalism does but at least it's a
functional system. Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven to be total
bull**** in theory and in practice.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

WillStG wrote:

Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven to be total bull****
in theory and in practice.

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?

Look, "surplus value" (as Marxist theory calls all profit) is NOT as is
claimed a result of stealing from labor, all profit is NOT a result of the
laborer in a factory's effort alone. Let's say you go out and buy a metal
lathe and start a small business, now YOU own the "means of production".
Someone has to market your company to find customers, manage the work that
comes in and order more raw materials, keep the books, answer the phone, it's
not just the guy turning the lathe who creates a product of value it's a team
effort. Marx and Engels claim otherwise and they are just plain wrong.
Successful business models are based on cooperation, not conflict, and profit
is a reflection of the value that is being created by that group process. In a
successful business model, after everyone is paid fairly there should still
profit left over, and if this is not the case a business is not healthy, either
the business model or product/service has problems. If people put Capital up
to start up the business, they have created some part of the value intrinsic in
that profit. Many successful people have failed many business start ups before
acheiving success, it ain't an automatic thing as Marxism would imply. This
isn't the 19th Century anymore.

The basic 3 tenets of Marxism, Dialectical Materialism, The Labor Theory
of Value and Historical Materialism are all poor constructs theoretically and
impossible to make work practically. What they did serve to do however was to
give certain people a philosophical excuse for committing the greatest
atrocities and inhumanities to one's fellow man in the 20th Century.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

In article ,
ospam (WillStG) wrote:

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?


Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

So George,
I've never heard the actual story about your disenchantment with
Christianity..care to elaborate....and if you can...keep it so I can follow.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

So George,
I've never heard the actual story about your disenchantment with
Christianity..care to elaborate....and if you can...keep it so I can follow.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

So George,
I've never heard the actual story about your disenchantment with
Christianity..care to elaborate....and if you can...keep it so I can follow.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

In article ,
ospam (WillStG) wrote:

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?


Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

In article ,
ospam (WillStG) wrote:

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?


Kinda like what christians did to the teachings of christ, right?
George

From: ospam

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?

Look, "surplus value" (as Marxist theory calls all profit) is NOT as is
claimed a result of stealing from labor, all profit is NOT a result of the
laborer in a factory's effort alone. Let's say you go out and buy a metal
lathe and start a small business, now YOU own the "means of production".
Someone has to market your company to find customers, manage the work that
comes in and order more raw materials, keep the books, answer the phone, it's
not just the guy turning the lathe who creates a product of value it's a team
effort. Marx and Engels claim otherwise and they are just plain wrong.
Successful business models are based on cooperation, not conflict, and profit
is a reflection of the value that is being created by that group process. In
a
successful business model, after everyone is paid fairly there should still
profit left over, and if this is not the case a business is not healthy,
either
the business model or product/service has problems. If people put Capital up
to start up the business, they have created some part of the value intrinsic
in
that profit. Many successful people have failed many business start ups
before
acheiving success, it ain't an automatic thing as Marxism would imply. This
isn't the 19th Century anymore.

The basic 3 tenets of Marxism, Dialectical Materialism, The Labor
Theory
of Value and Historical Materialism are all poor constructs theoretically and
impossible to make work practically. What they did serve to do however was
to
give certain people a philosophical excuse for committing the greatest
atrocities and inhumanities to one's fellow man in the 20th Century.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

I just forgot to say regarding created value, "the whole is greater than
the sum of the parts"... It's true in a band and it's true in business. And
people who subscribe to materialist views (which does include some capitalists
as well! ) just fail to understand this basic principle.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

From: ospam

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?

Look, "surplus value" (as Marxist theory calls all profit) is NOT as is
claimed a result of stealing from labor, all profit is NOT a result of the
laborer in a factory's effort alone. Let's say you go out and buy a metal
lathe and start a small business, now YOU own the "means of production".
Someone has to market your company to find customers, manage the work that
comes in and order more raw materials, keep the books, answer the phone, it's
not just the guy turning the lathe who creates a product of value it's a team
effort. Marx and Engels claim otherwise and they are just plain wrong.
Successful business models are based on cooperation, not conflict, and profit
is a reflection of the value that is being created by that group process. In
a
successful business model, after everyone is paid fairly there should still
profit left over, and if this is not the case a business is not healthy,
either
the business model or product/service has problems. If people put Capital up
to start up the business, they have created some part of the value intrinsic
in
that profit. Many successful people have failed many business start ups
before
acheiving success, it ain't an automatic thing as Marxism would imply. This
isn't the 19th Century anymore.

The basic 3 tenets of Marxism, Dialectical Materialism, The Labor
Theory
of Value and Historical Materialism are all poor constructs theoretically and
impossible to make work practically. What they did serve to do however was
to
give certain people a philosophical excuse for committing the greatest
atrocities and inhumanities to one's fellow man in the 20th Century.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

I just forgot to say regarding created value, "the whole is greater than
the sum of the parts"... It's true in a band and it's true in business. And
people who subscribe to materialist views (which does include some capitalists
as well! ) just fail to understand this basic principle.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

From: ospam

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?

Look, "surplus value" (as Marxist theory calls all profit) is NOT as is
claimed a result of stealing from labor, all profit is NOT a result of the
laborer in a factory's effort alone. Let's say you go out and buy a metal
lathe and start a small business, now YOU own the "means of production".
Someone has to market your company to find customers, manage the work that
comes in and order more raw materials, keep the books, answer the phone, it's
not just the guy turning the lathe who creates a product of value it's a team
effort. Marx and Engels claim otherwise and they are just plain wrong.
Successful business models are based on cooperation, not conflict, and profit
is a reflection of the value that is being created by that group process. In
a
successful business model, after everyone is paid fairly there should still
profit left over, and if this is not the case a business is not healthy,
either
the business model or product/service has problems. If people put Capital up
to start up the business, they have created some part of the value intrinsic
in
that profit. Many successful people have failed many business start ups
before
acheiving success, it ain't an automatic thing as Marxism would imply. This
isn't the 19th Century anymore.

The basic 3 tenets of Marxism, Dialectical Materialism, The Labor
Theory
of Value and Historical Materialism are all poor constructs theoretically and
impossible to make work practically. What they did serve to do however was
to
give certain people a philosophical excuse for committing the greatest
atrocities and inhumanities to one's fellow man in the 20th Century.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

I just forgot to say regarding created value, "the whole is greater than
the sum of the parts"... It's true in a band and it's true in business. And
people who subscribe to materialist views (which does include some capitalists
as well! ) just fail to understand this basic principle.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?

Look, "surplus value" (as Marxist theory calls all profit) is NOT as is
claimed a result of stealing from labor, all profit is NOT a result of the
laborer in a factory's effort alone. Let's say you go out and buy a metal
lathe and start a small business, now YOU own the "means of production".
Someone has to market your company to find customers, manage the work that
comes in and order more raw materials, keep the books, answer the phone, it's
not just the guy turning the lathe who creates a product of value it's a team
effort. Marx and Engels claim otherwise and they are just plain wrong.
Successful business models are based on cooperation, not conflict, and profit
is a reflection of the value that is being created by that group process. In a
successful business model, after everyone is paid fairly there should still
profit left over, and if this is not the case a business is not healthy, either
the business model or product/service has problems. If people put Capital up
to start up the business, they have created some part of the value intrinsic in
that profit. Many successful people have failed many business start ups before
acheiving success, it ain't an automatic thing as Marxism would imply. This
isn't the 19th Century anymore.

The basic 3 tenets of Marxism, Dialectical Materialism, The Labor Theory
of Value and Historical Materialism are all poor constructs theoretically and
impossible to make work practically. What they did serve to do however was to
give certain people a philosophical excuse for committing the greatest
atrocities and inhumanities to one's fellow man in the 20th Century.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

S O'Neill

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

Sure it has. But because it doesn't work in practice every attempt to
implement it has had to be modified. But hey, what's a little "revisionism"
between Comrades, eh?

Look, "surplus value" (as Marxist theory calls all profit) is NOT as is
claimed a result of stealing from labor, all profit is NOT a result of the
laborer in a factory's effort alone. Let's say you go out and buy a metal
lathe and start a small business, now YOU own the "means of production".
Someone has to market your company to find customers, manage the work that
comes in and order more raw materials, keep the books, answer the phone, it's
not just the guy turning the lathe who creates a product of value it's a team
effort. Marx and Engels claim otherwise and they are just plain wrong.
Successful business models are based on cooperation, not conflict, and profit
is a reflection of the value that is being created by that group process. In a
successful business model, after everyone is paid fairly there should still
profit left over, and if this is not the case a business is not healthy, either
the business model or product/service has problems. If people put Capital up
to start up the business, they have created some part of the value intrinsic in
that profit. Many successful people have failed many business start ups before
acheiving success, it ain't an automatic thing as Marxism would imply. This
isn't the 19th Century anymore.

The basic 3 tenets of Marxism, Dialectical Materialism, The Labor Theory
of Value and Historical Materialism are all poor constructs theoretically and
impossible to make work practically. What they did serve to do however was to
give certain people a philosophical excuse for committing the greatest
atrocities and inhumanities to one's fellow man in the 20th Century.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

WillStG wrote:

Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven to be total bull****
in theory and in practice.

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

WillStG wrote:

Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven to be total bull****
in theory and in practice.

No, it hasn't been proven at all because it hasn't been legitimately tried.

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On 2004-05-27 ospam(WillStG) said:

Will's right, there are such safeguards, but the big guns can
work around such minor details as the rules and regs.
I didn't say that Capitalism doesn't still have problems or that
abuses of the system don't exist. I said 19th century and 21st
Century capitlaism are different - and this is true. And public
ownership of large companies - the "Democratization" of capital -
puts the lie to much of what Marx and Engels predicted.
In any event the problems of our economic system in no way prove
that any other system - or having no system at all - is a better
way. Again, merely criticizing something doesn't mean you have a
solution or anything better at all to offer. That there were
people stupid enough to think different only led to genocide, mass
murder and totalitarianism; under the Nazis, under the Fascists,
and under the banner of Marxist revolution. For all it's problems
Capitalism still works best as an economic model, socialism has
even more problems then Captalism does but at least it's a
functional system. Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven
to be total bull**** in theory and in practice.
True enough. I studied all the different theories when I was younger.
I always figured that understanding the so-called enemy was the first
thing one should do.

Since I've come to basically the same conclusions as a young man I
became a libertarian. tO me it's about leveling the playing field.
The so-called regulators can only be bought off by those who have the
dough, as in "he who has the gold makes the rules." THerefore, less
intrusion by government into my business bedroom and elsewhere is
always preferred.



Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 11:11:03 EDT
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Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 15:11:03 GMT
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On 2004-05-27 ospam(WillStG) said:

Will's right, there are such safeguards, but the big guns can
work around such minor details as the rules and regs.
I didn't say that Capitalism doesn't still have problems or that
abuses of the system don't exist. I said 19th century and 21st
Century capitlaism are different - and this is true. And public
ownership of large companies - the "Democratization" of capital -
puts the lie to much of what Marx and Engels predicted.
In any event the problems of our economic system in no way prove
that any other system - or having no system at all - is a better
way. Again, merely criticizing something doesn't mean you have a
solution or anything better at all to offer. That there were
people stupid enough to think different only led to genocide, mass
murder and totalitarianism; under the Nazis, under the Fascists,
and under the banner of Marxist revolution. For all it's problems
Capitalism still works best as an economic model, socialism has
even more problems then Captalism does but at least it's a
functional system. Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven
to be total bull**** in theory and in practice.
True enough. I studied all the different theories when I was younger.
I always figured that understanding the so-called enemy was the first
thing one should do.

Since I've come to basically the same conclusions as a young man I
became a libertarian. tO me it's about leveling the playing field.
The so-called regulators can only be bought off by those who have the
dough, as in "he who has the gold makes the rules." THerefore, less
intrusion by government into my business bedroom and elsewhere is
always preferred.



Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 11:11:03 EDT
Organization: BellSouth Internet Group
Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 15:11:03 GMT
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com rec.audio.pro:1074670


On 2004-05-27 ospam(WillStG) said:

Will's right, there are such safeguards, but the big guns can
work around such minor details as the rules and regs.
I didn't say that Capitalism doesn't still have problems or that
abuses of the system don't exist. I said 19th century and 21st
Century capitlaism are different - and this is true. And public
ownership of large companies - the "Democratization" of capital -
puts the lie to much of what Marx and Engels predicted.
In any event the problems of our economic system in no way prove
that any other system - or having no system at all - is a better
way. Again, merely criticizing something doesn't mean you have a
solution or anything better at all to offer. That there were
people stupid enough to think different only led to genocide, mass
murder and totalitarianism; under the Nazis, under the Fascists,
and under the banner of Marxist revolution. For all it's problems
Capitalism still works best as an economic model, socialism has
even more problems then Captalism does but at least it's a
functional system. Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven
to be total bull**** in theory and in practice.
True enough. I studied all the different theories when I was younger.
I always figured that understanding the so-called enemy was the first
thing one should do.

Since I've come to basically the same conclusions as a young man I
became a libertarian. tO me it's about leveling the playing field.
The so-called regulators can only be bought off by those who have the
dough, as in "he who has the gold makes the rules." THerefore, less
intrusion by government into my business bedroom and elsewhere is
always preferred.



Richard Webb
Electric Spider Productions
REplace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email

--

Will's right, there are such safeguards, but the big guns can work
around such minor details as the rules and regs.

I didn't say that Capitalism doesn't still have problems or that abuses of
the system don't exist. I said 19th century and 21st Century capitlaism are
different - and this is true. And public ownership of large companies - the
"Democratization" of capital - puts the lie to much of what Marx and Engels
predicted.

In any event the problems of our economic system in no way prove that any
other system - or having no system at all - is a better way. Again, merely
criticizing something doesn't mean you have a solution or anything better at
all to offer. That there were people stupid enough to think different only led
to genocide, mass murder and totalitarianism; under the Nazis, under the
Fascists, and under the banner of Marxist revolution.

For all it's problems Capitalism still works best as an economic model,
socialism has even more problems then Captalism does but at least it's a
functional system. Unlike Marxist economics which has been proven to be total
bull**** in theory and in practice.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits