In article OSPAM writes:

Let's face it, a couple or three dB's worth of crap at the
ever-so-slightly-audible level isn't going to make or break ANY recording,
but don't we all want to try & get the best quality we can justify the
expense for, with regard to any of our gear?

In general, yes. If you have the choice of two microphones, both
within your budget, there's no reason to choose the inferior one. But
rarely are your options that simple. If there were truly two mics that
were identical in real performance, not just on spec sheets approved
by the Marketing Department, with the exception of quiescent noise,
there's no reason for anyone to buy the one with the higher noise. So
either this isn't a realistic situation or there are a lot of
customers who have been duped.

Nowadays in the digital world, any noise in the signal chain shows up more
than ever, as compared to the analog world

This is true, but the hum in my analog console is more noticable than
the self noise of my mics. It was no problem before digital. So the
mic self noise problem doesn't apply to me until I get rid of another
layer of noise, and that isn't going to happen real soon. I'm not
about to invest weeks of time and a few hundred dollars worth of parts
in a 15 year old console that was a budget-priced console at the time.

If I was starting from scratch, I would indeed be concerned with noise
sources and I would consider this when selecting equipment to fit my
budget. And if I was actively working and charging people for product,
I'd be able to justify the significant expense of a new console or a
rebuild, but I'm not. I'm willing to accept less-than-the-best so I
can have time and money for other things. Ty makes a portion of his
living from his voice-over work, so it's advantageous to be able to
deliver a product that not only has his talent, but is of high technical
quality. Me, I mess around these days much more than deliver "CD-ready"
product, so it doesn't make sense to me to replace major investments
every couple of years because the technology improves. I don't need to
compete in that way.

It's a personal decision, but one that everyone should consider and not
just run blindly into a product with better specs.

In my case, if I was only going to
be using said SDC pair for drum overheads in a rock context, then microphone
self-noise wouldn't be much of an issue; however, since it looks like I
might be doing some more classical recording in the near future, it now
becomes more of an issue. That's all. Pretty simple.

I think you need to evaluate what you get in the actual working
situation. We understand that the more noise sources you have going
into a mix, the more noise you'll have in the mix, but with only two
mics, (and you probably won't be doing 10 to 20 dB of compression and
follow-on level boosting) it isn't going to be bad at all.

Pretty simple.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 00:34:09 -0500, david wrote
(in article ):

A room has a sound. They ain't anechoic silence. Especially with a
human or two in it.

If I put up a mic in my vocal booth, that "silence" sounds different
than in the middle of my big room. Or the the 2 other rooms I have,
which are also of different sizes.

Sure. That's room tone and selfnoise is part of room, at least for me.

And my rooms are plenty quiet. You will never hear cars or airplanes or
people or anything else outside or even the very powerful air
conditioning system. You will hear long earrings bumping around on
someone's cheeks. Or - ohmygod!!!- a human breathing. Ahhhhhhhh ;



I use microphones to record sounds. Not to attempt to listen in to
Absolute Silence. (And yes, I do really like silence.)

Silence during a song was something I had to be careful with recording
and mixing with analog tape, but the issue was not with mics, but the
noise floor of our tape machines.

Exactly, and without the noise floor from analog tape, we have a lot more
usable dynamic range. That's led us to the new frontier of the noise;
microphone selfnoise. I don't know what's left after that, molecular noise?

And I do like quiet and space in my work. I like reverb melting into
quiet. As a producer and engineer, I call fighting for space or some
spareness or simplicity in a typical multitrack arrangements "the final
frontier." Seems the older I get the more simple I like it.

we agree.

It's an excuse to sell mics or to ruminate on the number of angels
dancing on their diaphrams.

simply not true, David.

Actually Ty I gotta tell the truth, I was biting my tongue. What I
really wanted to say was "an excuse to sell or review microphones." ;

Meow, David. The sparseness and simplicity you crave is on the other side
of the noise wall. You don't have to fight anyone but yourself to get there.
Neumanm, upon changing the U 87 proclaimed their newer one is quieter
than the more expensive to make previous 87. Like an 87 has noise
issues. Same goes for AKG and the 414.

The new 414 are quieter. I reviewed both versions last year.

The TLM 103 is stunningly quieter than most mics on the market.


And the noise spec listed in a new receiver review is now .0000004
instead of .0000003. Who cares.

I'm talking about real, audible differences. Please don't hyperbolize off
topic.

Yes, it's an issue for you Ty. I *promise* to let you know the next
time it is for me.

Cool.

btw I just used the best mic pre I have ever used for one of the fave
mics in my collection, a mid 80's re20: An Amek Channel In The Box. And
the eq on that thing is stunning.

This re20, which I love the sound of, has always kinda wrestled with my
mics pres. It really likes this one.


One of the most amazing combos I ever heard was a Gefell M900 and an
Amke/Neve 9098 on a nasty guitar cab. That was probably 15 years ago and my
pants get wet even now when I think about it.


David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island

Regards (and thanks for the discourse),

Ty


-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Ty Ford wrote:


Absolutely! And selfnoise isn't the deal breaker. I'd rather have a mic with
a higher selfnoise that sounds better than one with low selfnoise that
doesn't do the job.


Well I am glad you said that. There is hope for you, yet.

Ty Ford wrote:


The prevalent thought then was track on a Neve for the sound and mix on an
SSL for the control.

But the mix board will effect the sound as much, maybe more?

And you can learn how to work a board without the "control". In fact the
true artistry of the mix engineer.

Scott Dorsey wrote:

I was at one of the AES microphone standards committee meetings, where a
bunch of representatives from various quality microphone manufacturers sat
around debating how to actually measure noise. There are actually a couple
IEC standards, and manufacturers basically pick a variant of one of them that
make their microphones look good. Just getting everyone to agree on a single
method would be a big deal.

Not to mention some of the lower grade manufacturers which play tricks like
selecting the quietest mike out of a given production run and putting that
number on the data sheet. The noise floor number on the data sheet should
not be even a nominal average, but it should be the highest possible level
that the manufacturer accepts to ship a product.

"Oh, we use 'M' weighting."

That's the great thing about standards. If you don't like one, just pick
another one!

But this is one of the great opportunities of the WWW. Someone can
create a website, and post results of testing a whole slew of mics
to the same standard.

We use to depend on magazines to do this sort of thing---but they were
never all that honest about it.

I wish someone like Doug Walker would do this. Or anyone else who does
restoration/hotrodding type work. And it would probably bring more
customers. Of course, Doug doesn't need more customers.

Rob R.

ty
That's led us to the new frontier of the noise;
microphone selfnoise. I don't know what's left after that, molecular
noise?

isn't that some of the self noise issue,
dormant air molecues on the membrane?

dale

dale wrote:
ty
That's led us to the new frontier of the noise;
microphone selfnoise. I don't know what's left after that, molecular
noise?

isn't that some of the self noise issue,
dormant air molecues on the membrane?

I thought self-noise was that ringing in my ears.
(I dedicate this terrible joke to Hank)

Rob R.

In article writes:

Also, as Mike (I think) alluded to, the better engineers fastidiously muted
tracks that weren't in use (or used expander/gates) to reduce noise build up.
That was part of the "magic" of the SSL consoles; expander/gates on every
input.

For someone working on a DAW, it's just as easy to mute significant
spaces between tracks. It takes a little time, but no more than to go
through a few passes writing mute automation on a console. But in a
world where people who don't know othewise apply compression so mixing
is no more than summing, problems compound.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:48:55 -0500, Ty Ford
wrote:

Absolutely! And selfnoise isn't the deal breaker. I'd rather have a mic with
a higher selfnoise that sounds better than one with low selfnoise that
doesn't do the job.

Even though I have a pair of far better small condensers, I keep
hanging onto a pair of Calrec mics that are pretty noisy, but I like
the way they sound.

Al

On 18 Mar 2005 13:19:26 -0500, (Mike Rivers)
wrote:


In article writes:

Also, as Mike (I think) alluded to, the better engineers fastidiously muted
tracks that weren't in use (or used expander/gates) to reduce noise build up.
That was part of the "magic" of the SSL consoles; expander/gates on every
input.

For someone working on a DAW, it's just as easy to mute significant
spaces between tracks.

Some software can automate this with "remove silence" commands, etc.

Al

Rob Reedijk wrote:

I thought self-noise was that ringing in my ears.

It is.

(I dedicate this terrible joke to Hank)

Thank you very much, Rob. I 'preciate it.

--
ha

Sorry, Ty. Been busy. I am kind of busy this week, but John did suggest
that I call him and we'd set something up. It works out as far as timeframe
because all of his demo units are out right now.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:21:58 -0500, Roger W. Norman wrote
(in article ):

I didn't see any reference to his website, so here it is.
www.pelusomicrophonelab.com. Prices seem to be pretty high for a
chinese
manufactured capsule, but if they are specifically made to spec and John
actually does hand building then it's very likely they are worth the
street
prices I've seen from the reference links.

There's also a .wav file with all Peluso mics on the referenced AudioLot
Records out of Cleveland that sounds pretty darned nice. Of course,
there
are some nice mic pres involved too, so you have to look at that. But
then
again, a bad mic in a good mic pre isn't going to shine as much as a
good
mic in a good mic pre.

I did just fire John off an email about possibly doing to testing and
also
invited him to come and talk about his product here on RAP.

Hey maybe you can ask him to send me one and I'll do a comparison

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other
audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Has anybody heard Peluso's 22 251?
Tom


"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Ty. Been busy. I am kind of busy this week, but John did suggest
that I call him and we'd set something up. It works out as far as
timeframe
because all of his demo units are out right now.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:21:58 -0500, Roger W. Norman wrote
(in article ):

I didn't see any reference to his website, so here it is.
www.pelusomicrophonelab.com. Prices seem to be pretty high for a
chinese
manufactured capsule, but if they are specifically made to spec and
John
actually does hand building then it's very likely they are worth the
street
prices I've seen from the reference links.

There's also a .wav file with all Peluso mics on the referenced
AudioLot
Records out of Cleveland that sounds pretty darned nice. Of course,
there
are some nice mic pres involved too, so you have to look at that. But
then
again, a bad mic in a good mic pre isn't going to shine as much as a
good
mic in a good mic pre.

I did just fire John off an email about possibly doing to testing and
also
invited him to come and talk about his product here on RAP.

Hey maybe you can ask him to send me one and I'll do a comparison

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other
audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Henry Robinett did a review for tape op. He liked it. I have a 2247 which I
like alot.
--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



From: "Tommy B"
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:47:27 GMT
Subject: Peluso Mics

Has anybody heard Peluso's 22 251?
Tom


"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Ty. Been busy. I am kind of busy this week, but John did suggest
that I call him and we'd set something up. It works out as far as
timeframe
because all of his demo units are out right now.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:21:58 -0500, Roger W. Norman wrote
(in article ):

I didn't see any reference to his website, so here it is.
www.pelusomicrophonelab.com. Prices seem to be pretty high for a
chinese
manufactured capsule, but if they are specifically made to spec and
John
actually does hand building then it's very likely they are worth the
street
prices I've seen from the reference links.

There's also a .wav file with all Peluso mics on the referenced
AudioLot
Records out of Cleveland that sounds pretty darned nice. Of course,
there
are some nice mic pres involved too, so you have to look at that. But
then
again, a bad mic in a good mic pre isn't going to shine as much as a
good
mic in a good mic pre.

I did just fire John off an email about possibly doing to testing and
also
invited him to come and talk about his product here on RAP.

Hey maybe you can ask him to send me one and I'll do a comparison

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other
audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Got a link or is it hard copy?
"Lou Gimenez" wrote in message
...
Henry Robinett did a review for tape op. He liked it. I have a 2247 which
I
like alot.
--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



From: "Tommy B"
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:47:27 GMT
Subject: Peluso Mics

Has anybody heard Peluso's 22 251?
Tom


"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Ty. Been busy. I am kind of busy this week, but John did
suggest
that I call him and we'd set something up. It works out as far as
timeframe
because all of his demo units are out right now.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:21:58 -0500, Roger W. Norman wrote
(in article ):

I didn't see any reference to his website, so here it is.
www.pelusomicrophonelab.com. Prices seem to be pretty high for a
chinese
manufactured capsule, but if they are specifically made to spec and
John
actually does hand building then it's very likely they are worth the
street
prices I've seen from the reference links.

There's also a .wav file with all Peluso mics on the referenced
AudioLot
Records out of Cleveland that sounds pretty darned nice. Of course,
there
are some nice mic pres involved too, so you have to look at that.
But
then
again, a bad mic in a good mic pre isn't going to shine as much as a
good
mic in a good mic pre.

I did just fire John off an email about possibly doing to testing and
also
invited him to come and talk about his product here on RAP.

Hey maybe you can ask him to send me one and I'll do a comparison

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other
audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

I read the review in tape op, Henry Robinett also hangs out on the gearslutz
forums
--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



From: "Tommy B"
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:05:13 GMT
Subject: Peluso Mics

Got a link or is it hard copy?
"Lou Gimenez" wrote in message
...
Henry Robinett did a review for tape op. He liked it. I have a 2247 which
I
like alot.
--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



From: "Tommy B"
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:47:27 GMT
Subject: Peluso Mics

Has anybody heard Peluso's 22 251?
Tom


"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Ty. Been busy. I am kind of busy this week, but John did
suggest
that I call him and we'd set something up. It works out as far as
timeframe
because all of his demo units are out right now.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:21:58 -0500, Roger W. Norman wrote
(in article ):

I didn't see any reference to his website, so here it is.
www.pelusomicrophonelab.com. Prices seem to be pretty high for a
chinese
manufactured capsule, but if they are specifically made to spec and
John
actually does hand building then it's very likely they are worth the
street
prices I've seen from the reference links.

There's also a .wav file with all Peluso mics on the referenced
AudioLot
Records out of Cleveland that sounds pretty darned nice. Of course,
there
are some nice mic pres involved too, so you have to look at that.
But
then
again, a bad mic in a good mic pre isn't going to shine as much as a
good
mic in a good mic pre.

I did just fire John off an email about possibly doing to testing and
also
invited him to come and talk about his product here on RAP.

Hey maybe you can ask him to send me one and I'll do a comparison

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other
audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

Thanks!
Tom
"Lou Gimenez" wrote in message
...
I read the review in tape op, Henry Robinett also hangs out on the
gearslutz
forums
--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



From: "Tommy B"
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:05:13 GMT
Subject: Peluso Mics

Got a link or is it hard copy?
"Lou Gimenez" wrote in message
...
Henry Robinett did a review for tape op. He liked it. I have a 2247
which
I
like alot.
--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



From: "Tommy B"
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:47:27 GMT
Subject: Peluso Mics

Has anybody heard Peluso's 22 251?
Tom


"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Ty. Been busy. I am kind of busy this week, but John did
suggest
that I call him and we'd set something up. It works out as far as
timeframe
because all of his demo units are out right now.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:21:58 -0500, Roger W. Norman wrote
(in article ):

I didn't see any reference to his website, so here it is.
www.pelusomicrophonelab.com. Prices seem to be pretty high for a
chinese
manufactured capsule, but if they are specifically made to spec and
John
actually does hand building then it's very likely they are worth
the
street
prices I've seen from the reference links.

There's also a .wav file with all Peluso mics on the referenced
AudioLot
Records out of Cleveland that sounds pretty darned nice. Of
course,
there
are some nice mic pres involved too, so you have to look at that.
But
then
again, a bad mic in a good mic pre isn't going to shine as much as
a
good
mic in a good mic pre.

I did just fire John off an email about possibly doing to testing
and
also
invited him to come and talk about his product here on RAP.

Hey maybe you can ask him to send me one and I'll do a comparison

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other
audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

You could check out www.tapeop.com and find out if the article is available,
you know. It was mentioned in the previous message, so perhaps it's
incumbent upon you to do the research.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Tommy B" wrote in message
k.net...
Got a link or is it hard copy?
"Lou Gimenez" wrote in message
...
Henry Robinett did a review for tape op. He liked it. I have a 2247
which
I
like alot.
--Lou Gimenez
The Music Lab
2" 24track w all the Goodies
www.musiclabnyc.com



From: "Tommy B"
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:47:27 GMT
Subject: Peluso Mics

Has anybody heard Peluso's 22 251?
Tom


"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
...
Sorry, Ty. Been busy. I am kind of busy this week, but John did
suggest
that I call him and we'd set something up. It works out as far as
timeframe
because all of his demo units are out right now.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Ty Ford" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 12:21:58 -0500, Roger W. Norman wrote
(in article ):

I didn't see any reference to his website, so here it is.
www.pelusomicrophonelab.com. Prices seem to be pretty high for a
chinese
manufactured capsule, but if they are specifically made to spec and
John
actually does hand building then it's very likely they are worth
the
street
prices I've seen from the reference links.

There's also a .wav file with all Peluso mics on the referenced
AudioLot
Records out of Cleveland that sounds pretty darned nice. Of
course,
there
are some nice mic pres involved too, so you have to look at that.
But
then
again, a bad mic in a good mic pre isn't going to shine as much as
a
good
mic in a good mic pre.

I did just fire John off an email about possibly doing to testing
and
also
invited him to come and talk about his product here on RAP.

Hey maybe you can ask him to send me one and I'll do a comparison

Ty Ford




-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other
audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com