"Pooh Bear"

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the
relevant
'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.


** Not true in many cases:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical.html#system


Have a look at the TN-C-S arrangement "protective multiple earthing" -
same as the "multiple earthed neutral" as used in Aussie, NZ, USA and most
of the world.





............ Phil

"Pooh Bear"

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the
relevant
'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.


** Not true in many cases:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical.html#system


Have a look at the TN-C-S arrangement "protective multiple earthing" -
same as the "multiple earthed neutral" as used in Aussie, NZ, USA and most
of the world.





............ Phil

Phil Allison wrote:

"Pooh Bear"

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the
relevant
'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.


** Not true in many cases:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical.html#system

Have a look at the TN-C-S arrangement "protective multiple earthing" -
same as the "multiple earthed neutral" as used in Aussie, NZ, USA and most
of the world.

Valid system types in the 16th Edition IEE regulations:

TN-C No separate earth conductors anywhere - neutral used as earth throughout
supply and installation (never seen this).

TN-S Probably most common, with supplier providing a separate earth conductor
back to the substation.

TN-C-S [Protective Multiple Earthing] Supply combines neutral and earth, but
they are separated out in the installation.

TT No earth provided by supplier; installation requires own earth rod (common
with overhead supply lines).

IT Supply is e.g. portable generator with no earth connection, installation
supplies own earth rod.


So - yes - it's not the default, although my example is considered the most
common ( certainly true for my own installation ).


Graham

Phil Allison wrote:

"Pooh Bear"

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the
relevant
'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.


** Not true in many cases:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical.html#system

Have a look at the TN-C-S arrangement "protective multiple earthing" -
same as the "multiple earthed neutral" as used in Aussie, NZ, USA and most
of the world.

Valid system types in the 16th Edition IEE regulations:

TN-C No separate earth conductors anywhere - neutral used as earth throughout
supply and installation (never seen this).

TN-S Probably most common, with supplier providing a separate earth conductor
back to the substation.

TN-C-S [Protective Multiple Earthing] Supply combines neutral and earth, but
they are separated out in the installation.

TT No earth provided by supplier; installation requires own earth rod (common
with overhead supply lines).

IT Supply is e.g. portable generator with no earth connection, installation
supplies own earth rod.


So - yes - it's not the default, although my example is considered the most
common ( certainly true for my own installation ).


Graham

"Pooh Bear"
Phil Allison wrote:

"Pooh Bear"

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the
relevant 'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.


** Not true in many cases:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical.html#system

Have a look at the TN-C-S arrangement "protective multiple
rthing" -
same as the "multiple earthed neutral" as used in Aussie, NZ, USA and
most
of the world.

Valid system types in the 16th Edition IEE regulations:

TN-C No separate earth conductors anywhere - neutral used as earth
throughout
supply and installation (never seen this).

TN-S Probably most common, with supplier providing a separate earth
conductor
back to the substation.

TN-C-S [Protective Multiple Earthing] Supply combines neutral and earth,
but
they are separated out in the installation.

TT No earth provided by supplier; installation requires own earth rod
(common
with overhead supply lines).

IT Supply is e.g. portable generator with no earth connection,
installation
supplies own earth rod.


So - yes - it's not the default, although my example is considered the
most
common ( certainly true for my own installation ).



** It flatly contradicts your blatanty WRONG statement - arsehole !!!!!

" In the UK, the ground conductor is ***only*** connected to neutral at the
relevant 'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district. "





........... Phil

"Pooh Bear"
Phil Allison wrote:

"Pooh Bear"

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the
relevant 'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.


** Not true in many cases:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical.html#system

Have a look at the TN-C-S arrangement "protective multiple
rthing" -
same as the "multiple earthed neutral" as used in Aussie, NZ, USA and
most
of the world.

Valid system types in the 16th Edition IEE regulations:

TN-C No separate earth conductors anywhere - neutral used as earth
throughout
supply and installation (never seen this).

TN-S Probably most common, with supplier providing a separate earth
conductor
back to the substation.

TN-C-S [Protective Multiple Earthing] Supply combines neutral and earth,
but
they are separated out in the installation.

TT No earth provided by supplier; installation requires own earth rod
(common
with overhead supply lines).

IT Supply is e.g. portable generator with no earth connection,
installation
supplies own earth rod.


So - yes - it's not the default, although my example is considered the
most
common ( certainly true for my own installation ).



** It flatly contradicts your blatanty WRONG statement - arsehole !!!!!

" In the UK, the ground conductor is ***only*** connected to neutral at the
relevant 'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district. "





........... Phil

Phil Allison wrote:
"Mike Rivers"

And only dangerous if one side of the power line is tied to
something in the box that you can touch.



** Just what a "polarity cap" in fact does.


Yes, a little bit. Not as lethally as a hot chassis.


Phil Allison wrote:
** Only one of those wires carries the AC current while the
other does NOT.


Phil, Phyl, Chlorophyll, must we go through this again? If there's
something plugged into the outlet that's turned on and working,
both wires carry the AC current. It's a circuit. Have a beer,
relax, and come back when you have a clearer head.




The two wires are the "ground" and "neutral" conductors.


Now you're talking voltage. At this point yer both right. But that
says "current" up there. Current flows out of the hot and into the
neutral, unless it's flowing the other way.

Phil Allison wrote:
"Mike Rivers"

And only dangerous if one side of the power line is tied to
something in the box that you can touch.



** Just what a "polarity cap" in fact does.


Yes, a little bit. Not as lethally as a hot chassis.


Phil Allison wrote:
** Only one of those wires carries the AC current while the
other does NOT.


Phil, Phyl, Chlorophyll, must we go through this again? If there's
something plugged into the outlet that's turned on and working,
both wires carry the AC current. It's a circuit. Have a beer,
relax, and come back when you have a clearer head.




The two wires are the "ground" and "neutral" conductors.


Now you're talking voltage. At this point yer both right. But that
says "current" up there. Current flows out of the hot and into the
neutral, unless it's flowing the other way.

"S O'Neill"
Phil Allison
"Mike Rivers"

And only dangerous if one side of the power line is tied to
something in the box that you can touch.

** Just what a "polarity cap" in fact does.


Yes, a little bit. Not as lethally as a hot chassis.


** They regularly fail short - in case you did not know !!

When used ( illegally) in 240 volt countries, even a good "polarity cap"
can deliver enough current to the lips of a person to kill them.



** Only one of those wires carries the AC current while the
other does NOT.


Phil, Phyl, Chlorophyll, must we go through this again? If there's
something plugged into the outlet that's turned on and working,
both wires carry the AC current. It's a circuit. Have a beer,
relax, and come back when you have a clearer head.


** The two wires are the "ground" and "neutral" conductors.


Now you're talking voltage.


** No dickhead - the neutral conductor carries power to the load so is
a safety hazard itself. It must in all cases be treated the same as the
active. If the neutral wire in an appliance does not make a connection at
the outlet then it becomes the SAME lethal voltage as the active.

The safety ground wire does NOT conduct current to the load - so as long as
it is intact it can be relied on to protect life.




............... Phil

"S O'Neill"
Phil Allison
"Mike Rivers"

And only dangerous if one side of the power line is tied to
something in the box that you can touch.

** Just what a "polarity cap" in fact does.


Yes, a little bit. Not as lethally as a hot chassis.


** They regularly fail short - in case you did not know !!

When used ( illegally) in 240 volt countries, even a good "polarity cap"
can deliver enough current to the lips of a person to kill them.



** Only one of those wires carries the AC current while the
other does NOT.


Phil, Phyl, Chlorophyll, must we go through this again? If there's
something plugged into the outlet that's turned on and working,
both wires carry the AC current. It's a circuit. Have a beer,
relax, and come back when you have a clearer head.


** The two wires are the "ground" and "neutral" conductors.


Now you're talking voltage.


** No dickhead - the neutral conductor carries power to the load so is
a safety hazard itself. It must in all cases be treated the same as the
active. If the neutral wire in an appliance does not make a connection at
the outlet then it becomes the SAME lethal voltage as the active.

The safety ground wire does NOT conduct current to the load - so as long as
it is intact it can be relied on to protect life.




............... Phil

Phil Allison wrote:

** The two wires are the "ground" and "neutral" conductors.

The safety ground wire does NOT conduct current to the load



And now you're talking about the third wire. I see a "two" up there.

Phil Allison wrote:

** The two wires are the "ground" and "neutral" conductors.

The safety ground wire does NOT conduct current to the load



And now you're talking about the third wire. I see a "two" up there.

"S O'Neill"
Phil Allison wrote:

** The two wires are the "ground" and "neutral" conductors.

The safety ground wire does NOT conduct current to the load


And now you're talking about the third wire. I see a "two" up there.




** There are specialist, remedial reading teachers for folk with your
problem.

But none for your associated brain defect.




.......... Phil

"S O'Neill"
Phil Allison wrote:

** The two wires are the "ground" and "neutral" conductors.

The safety ground wire does NOT conduct current to the load


And now you're talking about the third wire. I see a "two" up there.




** There are specialist, remedial reading teachers for folk with your
problem.

But none for your associated brain defect.




.......... Phil

brain


that was too easy.

brain


that was too easy.

In article in rec.audio.pro on Sun, 26
Sep 2004 02:21:40 +0100, Pooh Bear
says...


ScotFraser wrote:

If the wiring scheme is proper, the
ground and neutral are the same all the way back to the panel. BRBR

A small clarification: the ground & neutral are separate wires, but are tied
together at the service panel.

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the relevant
'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.

A number of countries - including New Zealand and Australia - use
Multiple Earthed Neutrals, or MENs.

Every switchboard has to have its own earth and neutral busbars, which
are strapped together, and a wire from the earth busbar goes to the
ground stake. Every building has its own ground stake.


Grounds are commonly additionally tied or 'strapped' to copper pipes carrying
the water supply. Called multiple protective ground earthing IIRC.

At least here, it's now illegal to use a water pipe - the ground stake
has to be dedicated to that purpose. For whatever reason the ground stake
is always outside the building and the connection is exposed and visible.

In article in rec.audio.pro on Sun, 26
Sep 2004 02:21:40 +0100, Pooh Bear
says...


ScotFraser wrote:

If the wiring scheme is proper, the
ground and neutral are the same all the way back to the panel. BRBR

A small clarification: the ground & neutral are separate wires, but are tied
together at the service panel.

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the relevant
'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.

A number of countries - including New Zealand and Australia - use
Multiple Earthed Neutrals, or MENs.

Every switchboard has to have its own earth and neutral busbars, which
are strapped together, and a wire from the earth busbar goes to the
ground stake. Every building has its own ground stake.


Grounds are commonly additionally tied or 'strapped' to copper pipes carrying
the water supply. Called multiple protective ground earthing IIRC.

At least here, it's now illegal to use a water pipe - the ground stake
has to be dedicated to that purpose. For whatever reason the ground stake
is always outside the building and the connection is exposed and visible.

Patrick Dunford wrote:

In article in rec.audio.pro on Sun, 26
Sep 2004 02:21:40 +0100, Pooh Bear
says...


ScotFraser wrote:

If the wiring scheme is proper, the
ground and neutral are the same all the way back to the panel. BRBR

A small clarification: the ground & neutral are separate wires, but are tied
together at the service panel.

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the relevant
'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.

A number of countries - including New Zealand and Australia - use
Multiple Earthed Neutrals, or MENs.

Every switchboard has to have its own earth and neutral busbars, which
are strapped together, and a wire from the earth busbar goes to the
ground stake. Every building has its own ground stake.


Grounds are commonly additionally tied or 'strapped' to copper pipes carrying
the water supply. Called multiple protective ground earthing IIRC.

At least here, it's now illegal to use a water pipe - the ground stake
has to be dedicated to that purpose. For whatever reason the ground stake
is always outside the building and the connection is exposed and visible.

My understanding is that the method you describe is more suited to remote localities
where transmission distances can be quite high.

I've heard of instances where a poor earth connection of this type has been improved
by simply pouring water onto it. A good 'ground stake' would have to penetrate to a
decent depth into moist soil to be effective.

In the days when recording studios were something special - it was common to make a
'technical earth' connection via a 'ground stake' like you describe.

Some UK installations also tie ground and neutral at the 'board' it seems.
Presumably for similar reasons ?


Graham

Patrick Dunford wrote:

In article in rec.audio.pro on Sun, 26
Sep 2004 02:21:40 +0100, Pooh Bear
says...


ScotFraser wrote:

If the wiring scheme is proper, the
ground and neutral are the same all the way back to the panel. BRBR

A small clarification: the ground & neutral are separate wires, but are tied
together at the service panel.

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the relevant
'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.

A number of countries - including New Zealand and Australia - use
Multiple Earthed Neutrals, or MENs.

Every switchboard has to have its own earth and neutral busbars, which
are strapped together, and a wire from the earth busbar goes to the
ground stake. Every building has its own ground stake.


Grounds are commonly additionally tied or 'strapped' to copper pipes carrying
the water supply. Called multiple protective ground earthing IIRC.

At least here, it's now illegal to use a water pipe - the ground stake
has to be dedicated to that purpose. For whatever reason the ground stake
is always outside the building and the connection is exposed and visible.

My understanding is that the method you describe is more suited to remote localities
where transmission distances can be quite high.

I've heard of instances where a poor earth connection of this type has been improved
by simply pouring water onto it. A good 'ground stake' would have to penetrate to a
decent depth into moist soil to be effective.

In the days when recording studios were something special - it was common to make a
'technical earth' connection via a 'ground stake' like you describe.

Some UK installations also tie ground and neutral at the 'board' it seems.
Presumably for similar reasons ?


Graham

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:12:40 -0400, Patrick Dunford wrote
(in article ) :

In article in rec.audio.pro on Sun, 26
Sep 2004 02:21:40 +0100, Pooh Bear
says...


ScotFraser wrote:

If the wiring scheme is proper, the
ground and neutral are the same all the way back to the panel. BRBR

A small clarification: the ground & neutral are separate wires, but are
tied
together at the service panel.

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the relevant
'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.

A number of countries - including New Zealand and Australia - use
Multiple Earthed Neutrals, or MENs.

Every switchboard has to have its own earth and neutral busbars, which
are strapped together, and a wire from the earth busbar goes to the
ground stake. Every building has its own ground stake.


Grounds are commonly additionally tied or 'strapped' to copper pipes
carrying
the water supply. Called multiple protective ground earthing IIRC.

At least here, it's now illegal to use a water pipe - the ground stake
has to be dedicated to that purpose. For whatever reason the ground stake
is always outside the building and the connection is exposed and visible.

Interesting. years back I had a hole blown in a motherboard of a home
security system due to (they said) multiple grounds. The control panel was
grounded to the water pipe. The phone line was grounded to a copper stake on
the other side of the house. Lightning hit the phone line down the road
somewhere, came up the phone line and Poof! a nice black hole in the center
of the motherboard.

I was told that part of the problem was the difference in ground potential
between the waterpipe ground and the copper stake phone ground.

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:12:40 -0400, Patrick Dunford wrote
(in article ) :

In article in rec.audio.pro on Sun, 26
Sep 2004 02:21:40 +0100, Pooh Bear
says...


ScotFraser wrote:

If the wiring scheme is proper, the
ground and neutral are the same all the way back to the panel. BRBR

A small clarification: the ground & neutral are separate wires, but are
tied
together at the service panel.

In the UK, the ground conductor is only connected to neutral at the relevant
'sub-station' - the local transformer supplying the district.

A number of countries - including New Zealand and Australia - use
Multiple Earthed Neutrals, or MENs.

Every switchboard has to have its own earth and neutral busbars, which
are strapped together, and a wire from the earth busbar goes to the
ground stake. Every building has its own ground stake.


Grounds are commonly additionally tied or 'strapped' to copper pipes
carrying
the water supply. Called multiple protective ground earthing IIRC.

At least here, it's now illegal to use a water pipe - the ground stake
has to be dedicated to that purpose. For whatever reason the ground stake
is always outside the building and the connection is exposed and visible.

Interesting. years back I had a hole blown in a motherboard of a home
security system due to (they said) multiple grounds. The control panel was
grounded to the water pipe. The phone line was grounded to a copper stake on
the other side of the house. Lightning hit the phone line down the road
somewhere, came up the phone line and Poof! a nice black hole in the center
of the motherboard.

I was told that part of the problem was the difference in ground potential
between the waterpipe ground and the copper stake phone ground.

Ty Ford



-- Ty Ford's equipment reviews, audio samples, rates and other audiocentric
stuff are at www.tyford.com

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:04:36 -0400, Ty Ford
wrote:

Interesting. years back I had a hole blown in a motherboard of a home
security system due to (they said) multiple grounds. The control panel was
grounded to the water pipe. The phone line was grounded to a copper stake on
the other side of the house. Lightning hit the phone line down the road
somewhere, came up the phone line and Poof! a nice black hole in the center
of the motherboard.

I was told that part of the problem was the difference in ground potential
between the waterpipe ground and the copper stake phone ground.

I've heard that if you're caught outdoors in an exposed place during
a lightning storm, that you should squat down with your feet close
together.

The argument is that the voltage difference between your feet can
kill you. Lightning, gotta love it.

Chris Hornbeck

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 07:04:36 -0400, Ty Ford
wrote:

Interesting. years back I had a hole blown in a motherboard of a home
security system due to (they said) multiple grounds. The control panel was
grounded to the water pipe. The phone line was grounded to a copper stake on
the other side of the house. Lightning hit the phone line down the road
somewhere, came up the phone line and Poof! a nice black hole in the center
of the motherboard.

I was told that part of the problem was the difference in ground potential
between the waterpipe ground and the copper stake phone ground.

I've heard that if you're caught outdoors in an exposed place during
a lightning storm, that you should squat down with your feet close
together.

The argument is that the voltage difference between your feet can
kill you. Lightning, gotta love it.

Chris Hornbeck

In article writes:

Interesting. years back I had a hole blown in a motherboard of a home
security system due to (they said) multiple grounds. The control panel was
grounded to the water pipe. The phone line was grounded to a copper stake on
the other side of the house. Lightning hit the phone line down the road
somewhere, came up the phone line and Poof! a nice black hole in the center
of the motherboard.

This is why it's not a good idea to "improve" your studio ground with
a ground stake. That hole could be in the center of your computer
motherboard or your console.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Interesting. years back I had a hole blown in a motherboard of a home
security system due to (they said) multiple grounds. The control panel was
grounded to the water pipe. The phone line was grounded to a copper stake on
the other side of the house. Lightning hit the phone line down the road
somewhere, came up the phone line and Poof! a nice black hole in the center
of the motherboard.

This is why it's not a good idea to "improve" your studio ground with
a ground stake. That hole could be in the center of your computer
motherboard or your console.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Mike Rivers wrote:

In article writes:

Interesting. years back I had a hole blown in a motherboard of a home
security system due to (they said) multiple grounds. The control panel was
grounded to the water pipe. The phone line was grounded to a copper stake on
the other side of the house. Lightning hit the phone line down the road
somewhere, came up the phone line and Poof! a nice black hole in the center
of the motherboard.

This is why it's not a good idea to "improve" your studio ground with
a ground stake. That hole could be in the center of your computer
motherboard or your console.

You can improve your building ground system, but the right way to
do it is to have all your earth grounds connect to the single ground
buss, and then all the ground wires in the building eventually end up
back at the single ground bus bar.
That hole blown through the alarm system board is because that
was the lowest resistance path between the two seperate ground
stakes. Lightning is funny stuff, it does weird **** sometimes.

--Dale

Mike Rivers wrote:

In article writes:

Interesting. years back I had a hole blown in a motherboard of a home
security system due to (they said) multiple grounds. The control panel was
grounded to the water pipe. The phone line was grounded to a copper stake on
the other side of the house. Lightning hit the phone line down the road
somewhere, came up the phone line and Poof! a nice black hole in the center
of the motherboard.

This is why it's not a good idea to "improve" your studio ground with
a ground stake. That hole could be in the center of your computer
motherboard or your console.

You can improve your building ground system, but the right way to
do it is to have all your earth grounds connect to the single ground
buss, and then all the ground wires in the building eventually end up
back at the single ground bus bar.
That hole blown through the alarm system board is because that
was the lowest resistance path between the two seperate ground
stakes. Lightning is funny stuff, it does weird **** sometimes.

--Dale

"Snowdog" wrote:

Thanks to everyone for your helpful comments. Quick recap..bass player gets
shocked on the lips by vocal mic while wearing his bass.

I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
a ground wire. House was built in '56.

What are my options to add a ground? Can I connect a wire to the ground
terminal, run it down through the wall into the crawl space under the house
and stake it into the ground ( the earth)? BRBR

Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

If not, well I have had occasion to buy very heavy guage 3 wire romex and
run a new wire to a basement outlet box through a false wall from a basement
electrical panel. I ran the wire and wired the box (using reference books as a
guide), but I had my brother do the electrical panel connection part as he is
experienced and qualified in electrical matters and knows how to do such things
without getting killed by inadvertently touching a buss bar in an open panel
with a screwdriver. Not too difficult a job or a lenghthy procedure, but one
that does require knowing what you're doing.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

"Snowdog" wrote:

Thanks to everyone for your helpful comments. Quick recap..bass player gets
shocked on the lips by vocal mic while wearing his bass.

I pulled the three prong outlet from the wall that the bass player plugs
into...and sure enough, there are only two wires connected to the plug.
There is no grounding wire. I do see a ground terminal on the outlet to add
a ground wire. House was built in '56.

What are my options to add a ground? Can I connect a wire to the ground
terminal, run it down through the wall into the crawl space under the house
and stake it into the ground ( the earth)? BRBR

Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

If not, well I have had occasion to buy very heavy guage 3 wire romex and
run a new wire to a basement outlet box through a false wall from a basement
electrical panel. I ran the wire and wired the box (using reference books as a
guide), but I had my brother do the electrical panel connection part as he is
experienced and qualified in electrical matters and knows how to do such things
without getting killed by inadvertently touching a buss bar in an open panel
with a screwdriver. Not too difficult a job or a lenghthy procedure, but one
that does require knowing what you're doing.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

On 28 Sep 2004 04:03:44 GMT, ospam (WillStG) wrote:
Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
not safe.

It's easy enough to do the appropriate tests that I feel that any
assumptions are inappropriate.

Maybe always remember the standards of safety are for some random
child wandering by. We tend sometimes to think in terms of our own
skunky asses, which, let's face it, are worthless. Mine especially.

Chris Hornbeck

On 28 Sep 2004 04:03:44 GMT, ospam (WillStG) wrote:
Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
not safe.

It's easy enough to do the appropriate tests that I feel that any
assumptions are inappropriate.

Maybe always remember the standards of safety are for some random
child wandering by. We tend sometimes to think in terms of our own
skunky asses, which, let's face it, are worthless. Mine especially.

Chris Hornbeck

In article ,
Chris Hornbeck wrote:

On 28 Sep 2004 04:03:44 GMT, ospam (WillStG) wrote:
Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
not safe.

It's easy enough to do the appropriate tests that I feel that any
assumptions are inappropriate.

Maybe always remember the standards of safety are for some random
child wandering by. We tend sometimes to think in terms of our own
skunky asses, which, let's face it, are worthless. Mine especially.

Chris Hornbeck

never assume with electricty
George

In article ,
Chris Hornbeck wrote:

On 28 Sep 2004 04:03:44 GMT, ospam (WillStG) wrote:
Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
not safe.

It's easy enough to do the appropriate tests that I feel that any
assumptions are inappropriate.

Maybe always remember the standards of safety are for some random
child wandering by. We tend sometimes to think in terms of our own
skunky asses, which, let's face it, are worthless. Mine especially.

Chris Hornbeck

never assume with electricty
George

Chris Hornbeck ospam
(WillStG) wrote:
Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
not safe.
BRBR

It was once code in some places that the metal conduit boxes attached to
metal coiled conduit served as the ground path. If that is the case in Doug's
house, it is s simple matter of using the ground path that was intended.

But of course it shouldn't be assumed to be the case, it should be tested.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Chris Hornbeck ospam
(WillStG) wrote:
Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
not safe.
BRBR

It was once code in some places that the metal conduit boxes attached to
metal coiled conduit served as the ground path. If that is the case in Doug's
house, it is s simple matter of using the ground path that was intended.

But of course it shouldn't be assumed to be the case, it should be tested.

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On 28 Sep 2004 04:03:44 GMT, ospam (WillStG) wrote:
Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
not safe.

That 2-conductor stuff was never code for commercial installs. You will
not see it anywhere but in homes.

It's easy enough to do the appropriate tests that I feel that any
assumptions are inappropriate.

Agreed, and it is worthwhile to keep an outlet tester around in the bag.
If you have to use a cheater on the outlet, use an outlet tester to make
sure that you have a good solid ground with the cheater in place.

Maybe always remember the standards of safety are for some random
child wandering by. We tend sometimes to think in terms of our own
skunky asses, which, let's face it, are worthless. Mine especially.

Bring it to the AES show and I will have the panel check it out.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On 28 Sep 2004 04:03:44 GMT, ospam (WillStG) wrote:
Doug, if there is a metal box that the wires run through, the metal box
and metal conduit are the ground (assuming it's connected properly.) So you
could use a 3 prong to 2 prong connector and connect the green ground wire to
the center screw - that's what the little horseshoe is there for.

I really don't think that this is a safe general practice. American
houses from the 1950's (like mine) are usually wired with two
conductors and no third (safety) ground. Assuming otherwise is
not safe.

That 2-conductor stuff was never code for commercial installs. You will
not see it anywhere but in homes.

It's easy enough to do the appropriate tests that I feel that any
assumptions are inappropriate.

Agreed, and it is worthwhile to keep an outlet tester around in the bag.
If you have to use a cheater on the outlet, use an outlet tester to make
sure that you have a good solid ground with the cheater in place.

Maybe always remember the standards of safety are for some random
child wandering by. We tend sometimes to think in terms of our own
skunky asses, which, let's face it, are worthless. Mine especially.

Bring it to the AES show and I will have the panel check it out.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

WillStG wrote:

It was once code in some places that the metal conduit boxes attached to
metal coiled conduit served as the ground path. If that is the case in Doug's
house, it is s simple matter of using the ground path that was intended.

This is BX cable. It was required for residential installs in a few big
cities, but was never required universally by the NEC. It's good stuff.

There are a couple places where even stronger local code requirements were
in force. My friend Kelly used to live in Chicago, and his house had real
thinwall conduit from the panel to all the outlets. Seems the union guys
needed work. It was really a beautiful job... I have never seen anything
like that in a residential install before or since.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

WillStG wrote:

It was once code in some places that the metal conduit boxes attached to
metal coiled conduit served as the ground path. If that is the case in Doug's
house, it is s simple matter of using the ground path that was intended.

This is BX cable. It was required for residential installs in a few big
cities, but was never required universally by the NEC. It's good stuff.

There are a couple places where even stronger local code requirements were
in force. My friend Kelly used to live in Chicago, and his house had real
thinwall conduit from the panel to all the outlets. Seems the union guys
needed work. It was really a beautiful job... I have never seen anything
like that in a residential install before or since.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."