trotsky said:

I wish you all of the success that you deserve. And I mean that in the
way that you think.

That's fine--just let me know if you ever become mentally capable of
discussing the facts.

Oh goody -- it's "facts" time again. Here are mine:

1. You, Gregipus the Mommy****er, are a dingleberry.

2. Krooger does not like you, but he admires you, and not in the way
you think.

3. In the future, you must have all questions cleared before you are
allowed to present them on RAO.

4. If you're not a crook, Lionella and her entourage will surround you
in a perfect circle, rain lotus blossoms and coffee grounds onto you,
and accept you as the Good Ol' Boy Savior of Audio. If you are a
crook, Jocasta will freeze you out.

5. There are no facts that are knowable by you because of your deep
and abiding profanity. Sorry.

George M. Middius wrote:

4. If you're not a crook, Lionella and her entourage will surround you
in a perfect circle, rain lotus blossoms and coffee grounds onto you,
and accept you as the Good Ol' Boy Savior of Audio. If you are a
crook, Jocasta will freeze you out.


You have a teenager perception and conception of the life, Georgetta !
Lionella already know that Greg "Spartacus" Trotsky is a crook. A real
stupid and pathetic one yes, but a crook.
Do you need an ultimate clue ? Ask to Dave Weil ! ;-)

LOL !

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...


I see that you are still too much of a coward to tell us about your
day
job,
sockpuppet Yustabe.

Would the true facts about your "day job" expose you to ridicule?

Not at all.

Then why not be more forthcoming with the facts?

But it is irrelevant to audio and it is none of your damn business.

Look Sockpuppet Wheel you started this line of discussion with me. If you
aren't man enough to end it honestly and like a man, then so be it.

I will tell you this, though. I work in an engineering office although
I am not an engineer.

OK so you're a clerk or a building maintenance person.

I earn very slightly less than an engineer with
similar management responsibilities.

Managment responsibilities and engineering are irrelevant. Having one tells
us zero about the other.

I run multiple projects of much complexity.

With your demonstrated language skills, that's kinda hard to believe.

I manage consulants.

I don't know what a "consulant" is.

My profession involves complex
issues within at least four other professional disciplines with which
I have a good workiing knowledge.

Perhaps "complex" at some low technical and administrative level.

I am very successful at what I do.

Prove it.

I save my employer lots of money.

You'd probably save him more money if you didn't show up for work and your
employer was able to employ somebody that was more mentally competent. OTOH
sockpuppet Wheel, maybe you have some bottom-level position where functional
illiteracy and habitual fuzzy thinking aren't a problem.

"S888Wheel" wrote in message

I said


Arny, are you suggesting you have a day job?

Arny said


Tell us about your day job, sockpuppet Wheel. Mine is a matter of RAO
record.

The record I see says that you are unemployed.

Prove it.

That would mean you have no day job.

The phrase "Self employed" is meaningless to many people who can only
conceive of being wage slaves.

That would make you a hypocrite for attacking
someone else for their unemployment.

Nahh, the hypocrisy is yours sockpuppet Wheel. You tried to make a point
about my employment, but you continue to lack the guts it takes to talk
about your own.

are you really so simple that
you need to have things spelled out for you like this?

Anybody with a brain can read between the lines, sockpuppet Wheel. You're
like a guy who claims to be an expert baseball player, but who fumbles the
first and every ball thrown at him.

Oh and yes, I am employed.

It's very clear that you aren't employed in a way that you are proud of,
sockpuppet Wheel.

dave weil wrote:

On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 16:51:25 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:


But in the last sentence of your post, you imply that Greg wanted the
speakers back.


No, I said that I boxed the speakers up and was waiting for him to
pick them up.

Nobody seemes to have actaully read what i wrote.

But what's new around here?

Trotsky is preparing a 3-ways speaker...
Interested ?
)

Subject: The Trotsky Report -- suppressed by Weil
From: "Arny Krueger"
Date: 10/6/03 6:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...


I see that you are still too much of a coward to tell us about your
day
job,
sockpuppet Yustabe.

Would the true facts about your "day job" expose you to ridicule?

Not at all.

Then why not be more forthcoming with the facts?

But it is irrelevant to audio and it is none of your damn business.

Look Sockpuppet Wheel you started this line of discussion with me. If you
aren't man enough to end it honestly and like a man, then so be it.

I will tell you this, though. I work in an engineering office although
I am not an engineer.

OK so you're a clerk or a building maintenance person.

I earn very slightly less than an engineer with
similar management responsibilities.

Managment responsibilities and engineering are irrelevant. Having one tells
us zero about the other.

I run multiple projects of much complexity.

With your demonstrated language skills, that's kinda hard to believe.

I manage consulants.

I don't know what a "consulant" is.

My profession involves complex
issues within at least four other professional disciplines with which
I have a good workiing knowledge.

Perhaps "complex" at some low technical and administrative level.

I am very successful at what I do.

Prove it.

I save my employer lots of money.

You'd probably save him more money if you didn't show up for work and your
employer was able to employ somebody that was more mentally competent. OTOH
sockpuppet Wheel, maybe you have some bottom-level position where functional
illiteracy and habitual fuzzy thinking aren't a problem.








This is toooo funny. Once again Arny can't remember who he is talking to.

I said


Arny, are you suggesting you have a day job?


Arny said


Tell us about your day job, sockpuppet Wheel. Mine is a matter of RAO
record.

I said


The record I see says that you are unemployed.


Arny said


Prove it.

Asked and answered. Arny, do you know who you are talking to this time?

I said


That would mean you have no day job.


Arny said




The phrase "Self employed" is meaningless to many people who can only
conceive of being wage slaves.

And for some it's a way of delluding themsleves into thinking they are not
really unemployed. Prove you are self employed and actually running a business
and have an income.

I said


That would make you a hypocrite for attacking
someone else for their unemployment.


Arny said


Nahh,

Denial noted.


Arny said

the hypocrisy is yours sockpuppet Wheel.

Transference noted. A common element of denial.

Arny said

You tried to make a point
about my employment,

I didn't try to I did. More denial.


Arny said

but you continue to lack the guts it takes to talk
about your own.

Another feeble attempt at transfering your problems to others. Your denial is
painfully obvious as is your hypocrisy. Do you know who you are talking to this
time?

I said




are you really so simple that
you need to have things spelled out for you like this?

Arny said


Anybody with a brain can read between the lines, sockpuppet Wheel.

Funny you can't even figure out who you are talking to at any given time. Talk
to us about reading between the lines when you can read the actual lines Arny.
Do you know who you are talking to this time?

Arny said

You're
like a guy who claims to be an expert baseball player, but who fumbles the
first and every ball thrown at him.


Wow, that was an insightful analogy. Not. Again you must be able to read the
lines before you can read between them. Start by figuring out who you are
talking to.

I said


Oh and yes, I am employed.


Arny said


It's very clear that you aren't employed in a way that you are proud of,
sockpuppet Wheel.

Arny, when you can figure out who you are talking to at any given moment you
can then try to read between the lines. I have told you quite clearly that the
nature of my proffession is unrelated to audio and I think that bragging about
my professional acomplishments which are totally unrelated to audio would
simply be vulgar grandstanding. I think that sort of thing is completely
undignified. Do you know who you are talking too this time?

S888Wheel wrote:


The phrase "Self employed" is meaningless to many people who can only
conceive of being wage slaves.


And for some it's a way of delluding themsleves into thinking they are not
really unemployed. Prove you are self employed and actually running a business
and have an income.

You do know that 40% of the U.S. population has some sort of personal business
ranging from selling Avon on the side to running a company, don't you?

That's tens of millions of people who are "self employed".

You do know that 40% of the U.S. population has some sort of personal
business
ranging from selling Avon on the side to running a company, don't you?

There are personal businesses and their are substantial personal businesses.
Any kid can open a lemonade stand and say they have a personal business.


That's tens of millions of people who are "self employed".


I was only considering Arny's claim. Did you not get that?

"S888Wheel" wrote in message


You do know that 40% of the U.S. population has some sort of personal
business
ranging from selling Avon on the side to running a company, don't you?

There are personal businesses and their are substantial personal
businesses.

Doooohhhhhhhh!

Any kid can open a lemonade stand and say they have a personal business.

e.g. Greg Singh.

Tell us what you know and can support as being factual about my business,
sockpuppet Wheel. Oh, and BTW how long do you intend to play the coward and
continue to evade my questions about your alleged occupation?

Arny said


Tell us what you know and can support as being factual about my business,
sockpuppet Wheel.

You have offered no evidence that you have a valid income producing personal
business. Looks like a lemonade stand to me until you offer any evidence that
your business is generating any substantial income.

Arny said

Oh, and BTW how long do you intend to play the coward and
continue to evade my questions about your alleged occupation?

How long will it take you to understand my answers to your questions regarding
my occupation? Clearly you haven't understood them yet if you think fear is my
motive.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...


I see that you are still too much of a coward to tell us about your
day
job,
sockpuppet Yustabe.

Would the true facts about your "day job" expose you to ridicule?

Not at all.

Then why not be more forthcoming with the facts?


Because I like it that you are dying to find out,
and that I am not going to tell you!

But it is irrelevant to audio and it is none of your damn business.

Look Sockpuppet Wheel you started this line of discussion with me. If you
aren't man enough to end it honestly and like a man, then so be it.


Ahem, Arny, you are losing it again. You are talking to
Sockpuppet Yustabe, not to Wheel.
At any rate, I didn't start the line of discussion about my
career. It was 'YOU' who started that.
Arny lies again.


I will tell you this, though. I work in an engineering office although
I am not an engineer.

OK so you're a clerk or a building maintenance person.


If that's want you want to believe. That presumption is
inconsistent with the rest of my description.

I earn very slightly less than an engineer with
similar management responsibilities.

Managment responsibilities and engineering are irrelevant. Having one
tells
us zero about the other.

I run multiple projects of much complexity.

With your demonstrated language skills, that's kinda hard to believe.


My language skills are very good. My typing skills are not.

I manage consulants.

I don't know what a "consulant" is.


You could guess. 'At least' I give you credit for not being
that stupid. If you think it is to your advantage to act like
an idiot, so be it. You really aren't impressing anyone.
Quite the opposite, you just demean yourself.

My profession involves complex
issues within at least four other professional disciplines with which
I have a good workiing knowledge.

Perhaps "complex" at some low technical and administrative level.


Perhaps not!

I am very successful at what I do.

Prove it.


I do, every day that I work.
But I have no intention of proving anything to you.

I save my employer lots of money.

You'd probably save him more money if you didn't show up for work and your
employer was able to employ somebody that was more mentally competent.
OTOH
sockpuppet Wheel, maybe you have some bottom-level position where
functional
illiteracy and habitual fuzzy thinking aren't a problem.


Ahem, Arny, I am Sockpuppet Yustabe.
You are a complete idiot.
You are even too stupid to clean the toilets in my building.





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"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
.net...
S888Wheel wrote:


The phrase "Self employed" is meaningless to many people who can only
conceive of being wage slaves.


And for some it's a way of delluding themsleves into thinking they are
not
really unemployed. Prove you are self employed and actually running a
business
and have an income.

You do know that 40% of the U.S. population has some sort of personal
business
ranging from selling Avon on the side to running a company, don't you?

That's tens of millions of people who are "self employed".


You forgot to include drug dealers and child pornographers.
They are self employed, too.




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"S888Wheel" wrote in message

Arny said

Oh, and BTW how long do you intend to play the coward and
continue to evade my questions about your alleged occupation?

How long will it take you to understand my answers to your questions
regarding my occupation?

No answers from you. just evasions.

Clearly you haven't understood them yet if you think fear is my motive.

Clearly, you are talking trash, which is your usual mode.

It's quite clear that you fear the consequences of telling the truth about
yourself.

Sockpuppet Yustabe said:

Because I like it that you are dying to find out,
and that I am not going to tell you!

The ironic thing is that you have told us. The whole group, I mean.
And on more than one occasion.

Arny said


Oh, and BTW how long do you intend to play the coward and
continue to evade my questions about your alleged occupation?


I said


How long will it take you to understand my answers to your questions
regarding my occupation?


Arny said


No answers from you. just evasions.


Arny, I have given you my answer to this question. I do not talk about my
occupation or my acomplishements in my occupation because my occupation is
unrelated to audio and I find bragging about my acomplishments, which are
unrelated to audio, would be nothing more than vulgar grnadstanding. The
concept seems simple enough to me. Why can't you grasp it? If you weren't
making hypocritical personal attacks on others for their occupations nad
acomplishments in life I wouldn't be pointing out your miserable failings in
such matters. I do so only to show your hypocisy. Tell us the reason you want
to know my occupation Arny? Is it genuine curiosity or are you just looking for
another angle to spew your sociopathic attacks on people just because yo cannot
support your religious beliefs in audio with legitimate arguments?

I said


Clearly you haven't understood them yet if you think fear is my motive.

Arny said


Clearly, you are talking trash, which is your usual mode.


This comming from a guy who makes libelous false accusationsof pedophilia when
he looses a debate. Hupocisy rears it's ugly head again.

Arny said


It's quite clear that you fear the consequences of telling the truth about
yourself.

It is quite clear that you are looking for a new angle to make sociopathic
personal attacks to compensate for your inability to defend your religious
beliefs in audio via a fair and honest debate. Arny, it is obvious that what
ever I do in life you will try to find some way to attack it because you are so
full of mallice. Regardless of what I have acomplished in life you will try to
twist facts or deny them. So there obviously is no point in telling you
anything about myself.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message

Sockpuppet Yustabe said:

Because I like it that you are dying to find out,
and that I am not going to tell you!

The ironic thing is that you have told us. The whole group, I mean.

If that's true, someone can post the google URL of said post.

And on more than one occasion.

Yeah sure Middius, and you've said in the past you've told the whole group
your occupation as well.

"S888Wheel" wrote in message

Arny said


Oh, and BTW how long do you intend to play the coward and
continue to evade my questions about your alleged occupation?


I said


How long will it take you to understand my answers to your questions
regarding my occupation?


Arny said


No answers from you. just evasions.

Arny, I have given you my answer to this question.

Which is no answer, IOW the answer of a coward.

I do not talk
about my occupation or my acomplishements in my occupation because my
occupation is unrelated to audio and I find bragging about my
acomplishments, which are unrelated to audio, would be nothing more
than vulgar grnadstanding.

As if you aren't among the more vulgar people around here! LOL!

The concept seems simple enough to me. Why
can't you grasp it?

Because it's typical of your abject cowardice and dissembling, sockpuppet
Wheel.

If you weren't making hypocritical personal
attacks on others for their occupations nad acomplishments in life I
wouldn't be pointing out your miserable failings in such matters.

One problem sockpuppet Wheel, the so-called failings are figments of your
imagination

I do so only to show your hypocisy.

LOL!

Tell us the reason you want to know my occupation Arny?

To quote a doddering fool, I do so only to show your hypocrisy.

Is it genuine curiosity or are you just looking
for another angle to spew your sociopathic attacks on people just
because yo cannot support your religious beliefs in audio with
legitimate arguments?

To quote a doddering fool, I do so only to show your hypocrisy.

snip the usual delusional personal attacks we get from sockpuppet wheel

Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:


You forgot to include drug dealers and child pornographers.
They are self employed, too.

That figure is compiled by our government and does not include
illegal businesses.

Arny said


Oh, and BTW how long do you intend to play the coward and
continue to evade my questions about your alleged occupation?


I said


How long will it take you to understand my answers to your questions
regarding my occupation?



Arny said


No answers from you. just evasions.


I said


Arny, I have given you my answer to this question.


Arny said


Which is no answer, IOW the answer of a coward.

No, the answer of someone who doesn't like to brag. I guess this is difficult
to understand for you given your chronic problem with being an underachiever.

I said


I do not talk
about my occupation or my acomplishements in my occupation because my
occupation is unrelated to audio and I find bragging about my
acomplishments, which are unrelated to audio, would be nothing more
than vulgar grnadstanding.

Arny said


As if you aren't among the more vulgar people around here! LOL!


This comming from a guy who makes false accusations of pedophilia.

I said


The concept seems simple enough to me. Why
can't you grasp it?


Arny said


Because it's typical of your abject cowardice and dissembling, sockpuppet
Wheel.

IOW no you can't grasp it.

I said


If you weren't making hypocritical personal
attacks on others for their occupations nad acomplishments in life I
wouldn't be pointing out your miserable failings in such matters.

Arny said


One problem sockpuppet Wheel, the so-called failings are figments of your
imagination

No Arny, they are your own admissions. Are you so out of touch with reality
that you forget what you have said in those rare moments of selfawareness?

I said


I do so only to show your hypocisy.


Arny said


LOL!

Good answer.

I said


Tell us the reason you want to know my occupation Arny?

Arny said


To quote a doddering fool, I do so only to show your hypocrisy.

Can't even come up with an original thought in trying to avoid the obvious.

I said


Is it genuine curiosity or are you just looking
for another angle to spew your sociopathic attacks on people just
because yo cannot support your religious beliefs in audio with
legitimate arguments?


Arny said


To quote a doddering fool, I do so only to show your hypocrisy.


Unoriginal and redundant. Can't give a straight answer can you? You are pegged
and looking for a way out now.

Arny said

snip the usual delusional personal attacks we get from sockpuppet wheel


You mean this?
It is quite clear that you are looking for a new angle to make sociopathic
personal attacks to compensate for your inability to defend your religious
beliefs in audio via a fair and honest debate. Arny, it is obvious that what
ever I do in life you will try to find some way to attack it because you are so
full of mallice. Regardless of what I have acomplished in life you will try to
twist facts or deny them. So there obviously is no point in telling you
anything about myself.

I guess sometimes the truth does get to you.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Sockpuppet Yustabe said:

Because I like it that you are dying to find out,
and that I am not going to tell you!

The ironic thing is that you have told us. The whole group, I mean.
And on more than one occasion.



You just sent Arny off on another one of his crazed google
searches. That ought to keep him quiet for half an hour.




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"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
k.net...
Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:


You forgot to include drug dealers and child pornographers.
They are self employed, too.

That figure is compiled by our government and does not include
illegal businesses.



....such as fraudulently posing as a competent computer technician.




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Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
k.net...

Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:



You forgot to include drug dealers and child pornographers.
They are self employed, too.

That figure is compiled by our government and does not include
illegal businesses.




...such as fraudulently posing as a competent computer technician.

Computers aren't rocket science, you know. I have no doubt that
Arny does a decent job at fixing computers. He seems to be
making a profit off of it, which is always the acid-test for
service-oriented businesses.

"S888Wheel" wrote in message



snip the usual delusional personal attacks we get from sockpuppet
wheel

You mean this?

It is quite clear that you are looking for a new angle to make
sociopathic personal attacks to compensate for your inability to
defend your religious beliefs in audio via a fair and honest debate.

Yawn. This is one of the biggest lies you've posted yet, if its not just
delusional blather. I've nailed you so many times in moderated debate over
on RAHE that my fingers get numb when I think about it.

Arny, it is obvious that what ever I do in life you will try to find
some way to attack it because you are so full of mallice.

In an ideal world people like you would see audio for what it is - a
technology, a business, a impersonal art and science. There is no inherent
malice in discussing audio as a technology, a business, an art or a science.
I'd be perfectly happy to discuss it that way for a very long time if the
discussion was productive. However sockpuppet Wheel, numskulls like you
quickly run out of intellectual gas in discussions like these, and that's
when the malice you feel because you've been deconstructed so often comes
into play.

Regardless of what I have acomplished in life you will try to twist facts
or
deny them.

That's one of your major problems sockpuppet Wheel, you don't even know what
the relevant facts are, and when I try to explain them to you at your
limited technical level, you think I'm making the true facts up.

So there obviously is no point in telling you anything about myself.

Yet you've tried to twist what you know about me into any number of hateful
fantasies.

I guess sometimes the truth does get to you.

I'd like to see you grow enough of a brain to recognize the truth when you
see it. You came into this scene with your head full of lies, and you've
never been able to shake them off.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
news
Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
k.net...

Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:

You forgot to include drug dealers and child pornographers.
They are self employed, too.

That figure is compiled by our government and does not include
illegal businesses.

...such as fraudulently posing as a competent computer technician.

Computers aren't rocket science, you know.

Well, building and repairing PCs isn't rocket science. The underlying
technology is exactly rocket science. It just that it's to the point where
it is packaged this well...

I have no doubt that
Arny does a decent job at fixing computers. He seems to be
making a profit off of it, which is always the acid-test for
service-oriented businesses.

My business has always been profitable, but it's been a lot of hard work
with a mediocre return on effort and investment.

But thanks for trying to straighten sockpuppet Yustabe out. Mission
Impossible.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
news
Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
k.net...

Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:



You forgot to include drug dealers and child pornographers.
They are self employed, too.

That figure is compiled by our government and does not include
illegal businesses.




...such as fraudulently posing as a competent computer technician.

Computers aren't rocket science, you know. I have no doubt that
Arny does a decent job at fixing computers. He seems to be
making a profit off of it, which is always the acid-test for
service-oriented businesses.


I doubt that Arny does a decent job.
I doubt that he makes a decent profit.
I doubt that he has much business.




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Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:
"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
news
Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:


"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
link.net...


Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:




You forgot to include drug dealers and child pornographers.
They are self employed, too.

That figure is compiled by our government and does not include
illegal businesses.




...such as fraudulently posing as a competent computer technician.

Computers aren't rocket science, you know. I have no doubt that
Arny does a decent job at fixing computers. He seems to be
making a profit off of it, which is always the acid-test for
service-oriented businesses.



I doubt that Arny does a decent job.
I doubt that he makes a decent profit.
I doubt that he has much business.


What about your job "Madame Pipi" ?

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message


I doubt that Arny does a decent job.
I doubt that he makes a decent profit.
I doubt that he has much business.

Amusingly enough, this is explicit admission from sockpuppet Yustabe that he
really knows nothing about any of these things. That makes all his former
strong claims about them look like lies, doesn't it?

It's really nice when your opponents disembowel themselves in public like
this!

My day: already made once. Let's see who else in their clique can match or
exceed sockpuppet Yustabe's performance of the day.

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:42:15 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Sockpuppet Yustabe" wrote in message


I doubt that Arny does a decent job.
I doubt that he makes a decent profit.
I doubt that he has much business.

Amusingly enough, this is explicit admission from sockpuppet Yustabe that he
really knows nothing about any of these things. That makes all his former
strong claims about them look like lies, doesn't it?

It's really nice when your opponents disembowel themselves in public like
this!

My day: already made once. Let's see who else in their clique can match or
exceed sockpuppet Yustabe's performance of the day.

Well, you've already supported all three of these statements today.

So, it makes Art look pretty smart.

I said

snip the usual delusional personal attacks we get from sockpuppet
wheel



You mean this?



It is quite clear that you are looking for a new angle to make
sociopathic personal attacks to compensate for your inability to
defend your religious beliefs in audio via a fair and honest debate.


arny said


Yawn. This is one of the biggest lies you've posted yet, if its not just
delusional blather. I've nailed you so many times in moderated debate over
on RAHE that my fingers get numb when I think about it.

In your fantasy world perhaps.

I said


Arny, it is obvious that what ever I do in life you will try to find
some way to attack it because you are so full of mallice.

Arny said


In an ideal world people like you would see audio for what it is - a
technology, a business, a impersonal art and science.

I see audio for what it is. Thankfully your idea of an ideal world is not
enforced on the rest of us.


Arny said

There is no inherent
malice in discussing audio as a technology, a business, an art or a science.

Not until you start loosing an argument. then you start spewing personal
attacks. Eventually you turn everyone of your unsuccessful debates on audio
into a discusting mud slinging contest.


Arny said


I'd be perfectly happy to discuss it that way for a very long time if the
discussion was productive.

Balony. You jump into attack mode right from the start much of the time.

Arny said

However sockpuppet Wheel, numskulls like you
quickly run out of intellectual gas in discussions like these, and that's
when the malice you feel because you've been deconstructed so often comes
into play.

Arny, why don't you just say "I'm rubber and you're glue..." Since all you are
doing is repeting what I said about you.

I said


Regardless of what I have acomplished in life you will try to twist facts
or
deny them.


Arny said


That's one of your major problems sockpuppet Wheel, you don't even know what
the relevant facts are, and when I try to explain them to you at your
limited technical level, you think I'm making the true facts up.

What does this lie have to do with what i said? Are you no longer aware of what
point you are responding to? Before you didn't even know who you were
responding to.

I said


So there obviously is no point in telling you anything about myself.


Arny said


Yet you've tried to twist what you know about me into any number of hateful
fantasies.

Nope. i have only illustrated your hypocrisy when you attack others for what
they have done in their lives by reminding you of your own admissions of being
quite unexceptional in this world.


I said



I guess sometimes the truth does get to you.


Arny said


I'd like to see you grow enough of a brain to recognize the truth when you
see it.

I see it Arny. You are a bitter chronic underachiever who tries to tear others
down to compensate for your own shortcommings in life and in audio. Your
mallice drives you to do things like calling people pedophiles when you cannot
win a straight up debate on audio.

Arny said

You came into this scene with your head full of lies, and you've
never been able to shake them off.


You continue to dellude yourself. Oh check the mail carefully this week. You
have a summons on the way. I bet you get it in the next two days. Yes it will
have my name, the same one I have been telling you is my name, the same name
you have claimed was a lie and part of some conspiracy against you. it will
also have my address and phone number. i guess that might bust your dellusional
claims that i am homeless. of course you can claim the summons is a fake. that
would be really dellusional but not surprising from you. By the way please
behave with some civility if you can. No harassing calls and no pipe bombs in
the mail.

"S888Wheel" wrote in message


You continue to dellude yourself. Oh check the mail carefully this
week. You have a summons on the way. I bet you get it in the next two
days. Yes it will have my name, the same one I have been telling you
is my name,

Talk is cheap. Just because you tell me you're Albert Einstein or Joe Blow,
I'm supposed to take it seriously?

LOL!

the same name you have claimed was a lie and part of some
conspiracy against you.

This is just another one of your many delusions or lies (who can tell
which?), sockpuppet Wheel.

it will also have my address and phone number.

Interesting irrelevant trivia at best.

i guess that might bust your dellusional claims that i am homeless.

"Dellusional" - claims typed into a Dell computer?

LOL!

Oh, talk is cheap.

of course you can claim the summons is a fake.

Depends if it passes the usual logical and legal tests.

that would be really dellusional but not surprising from you.

We shall see what we shall see.

By the way please
behave with some civility if you can. No harassing calls and no pipe
bombs in the mail.

Given that figurative pipe bombs in the mail are something you're now
bragging about sockpuppet Wheel, I can see why you expect them of me. No,
I'll pursue my legal recourse against you, as promised.

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:10:07 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Given that figurative pipe bombs in the mail are something you're now
bragging about sockpuppet Wheel, I can see why you expect them of me. No,
I'll pursue my legal recourse against you, as promised.

Talk is cheap.

I said


You continue to dellude yourself. Oh check the mail carefully this
week. You have a summons on the way. I bet you get it in the next two
days. Yes it will have my name, the same one I have been telling you
is my name,

Arny said


Talk is cheap.

That includes your talk Arny. A fact that seems to be lost on you. A summons
OTOH is not talk.

Arny said

Just because you tell me you're Albert Einstein or Joe Blow,
I'm supposed to take it seriously?


I told you I am Scott Wheeler. You will see that on the summons when it comes
in the mail. It is up to you whether or not you want to take a lawsuit
seriously.

I said


the same name you have claimed was a lie and part of some
conspiracy against you.

Arny said


This is just another one of your many delusions or lies (who can tell
which?), sockpuppet Wheel.

Denial of the facts noted.

I said


it will also have my address and phone number.

Arny said


Interesting irrelevant trivia at best.


Right. You used that as an acid test before. I guess you forgot about your rant
over a return address. So were you full of crap then or now? Both I suspect.

I said




i guess that might bust your dellusional claims that i am homeless.

Arny said


"Dellusional" - claims typed into a Dell computer?

LOL!

Oh, talk is cheap.

Is this another rare moment of selfawareness Arny? Are you realizing that you
are all talk? Let's see how your talk works in court.

I said


of course you can claim the summons is a fake.

Arny said


Depends if it passes the usual logical and legal tests.

As if you were capable of making any such determination.

I said


that would be really dellusional but not surprising from you.

Arny said


We shall see what we shall see.


No. you shall see. I already know.

I said


By the way please
behave with some civility if you can. No harassing calls and no pipe
bombs in the mail.

Arny said


Given that figurative pipe bombs in the mail are something you're now
bragging about sockpuppet Wheel, I can see why you expect them of me.

Oh, you equate a legal action to an illegal one. I guess I should worry. you
have no idea what is right and wrong or legal and illegal.

Arny said

No,
I'll pursue my legal recourse against you, as promised.


Oh, you mean taking a default judgement and then bugging the postmaster about
getting mail? Go for it!

S888Wheel wrote:

[snip]

Mr. S888Wheel,

Your insistence to discuss with Mr. Krueger make me think that you
already know that you haven't enough material in your file to seriously
sue Mr. Krueger.
You know that he is highly irritable and all the exchanges you have with
him now look like as many provocations.

Lionel Chapuis

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
news
Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:


"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
link.net...


Sockpuppet Yustabe wrote:


You forgot to include drug dealers and child pornographers.
They are self employed, too.


That figure is compiled by our government and does not include
illegal businesses.


...such as fraudulently posing as a competent computer technician.


Computers aren't rocket science, you know.


Well, building and repairing PCs isn't rocket science. The underlying
technology is exactly rocket science. It just that it's to the point where
it is packaged this well...

Perhaps that's the difference. I also grew up when you had to make
your computer out of a kit. I remember aligning floppy drives manually
and soldering new caps onto a board as normal repairs.

Now, it's all replace and forget. Nice, actually, due to the cost and
time savings, but the newer people in the field don't know how to do
the technical stuff when they have to.

Unfortunately, accoustics requires either:
1: technical knowledge that nobody on this group possesses. Engineering
and physics degrees and such. These are the people who build concert
halls and do the real speaker and electronics design. They can make a
deign from scratch and it works perfectly the first time, every time.

2:Testing and trail and error based upon rough extimates. That's the
rest of us. Build acoustic chambers, test designs, tweak with the
cabinets, and so on. Even the big companies do this in-house, as
the number of people who are truly in the #1 category are probably
less than a couple dozen in the entire world. Tend of thousands think
and wish they were, though.


I have no doubt that
Arny does a decent job at fixing computers. He seems to be
making a profit off of it, which is always the acid-test for
service-oriented businesses.


My business has always been profitable, but it's been a lot of hard work
with a mediocre return on effort and investment.

But thanks for trying to straighten sockpuppet Yustabe out. Mission
Impossible.

I wonder what Greg's customer referral rate will be? Lol.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net
Arny Krueger wrote:

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
news

Computers aren't rocket science, you know.

Well, building and repairing PCs isn't rocket science. The underlying
technology is exactly rocket science. It just that it's to the point
where it is packaged this well...

Perhaps that's the difference. I also grew up when you had to make
your computer out of a kit. I remember aligning floppy drives
manually and soldering new caps onto a board as normal repairs.

Now, it's all replace and forget.

Right, when floppy drives wholesaled for $300 you had one *world* and when
they wholesale for $6 you have another.

Nice, actually, due to the cost and
time savings, but the newer people in the field don't know how to do
the technical stuff when they have to.

What changed is the level of underlying complexity.

Unfortunately, acoustics requires either:

1: technical knowledge that nobody on this group possesses.
Engineering and physics degrees and such.

In its former incarnation the group had people who were clearly
well-qualified speaker designers, people like Kantor, Dunlavy etc.

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=92...ws1.frmt 1.sf
ba.home.com

http://www.google.com/groups?&selm=%...b.prod2. comp
userve.com


These are the people who build concert halls and do the real speaker and
electronics design.
They can make a deign from scratch and it works perfectly the first time,
every time.

Nope. There's still a lot of tweaking by instrument and ear of initial
loudspeaker designs, and perfection in speakers is still elusive.

2:Testing and trail and error based upon rough extimates. That's the
rest of us.

Speak for yourself!

Build acoustic chambers, test designs, tweak with the
cabinets, and so on.

That still happens, regardless of the skill that goes into the initial
design.

Even the big companies do this in-house, as
the number of people who are truly in the #1 category are probably
less than a couple dozen in the entire world.

They number exactly zero.

Tend of thousands think and wish they were, though.

The unwashed do it all, sometimes for months and years, and still end up
with substandard results.

I have no doubt that
Arny does a decent job at fixing computers. He seems to be
making a profit off of it, which is always the acid-test for
service-oriented businesses.

My business has always been profitable, but it's been a lot of hard
work with a mediocre return on effort and investment.

But thanks for trying to straighten sockpuppet Yustabe out. Mission
Impossible.

I wonder what Greg's customer referral rate will be? Lol.

When I made my "stick a fork in it" comment early last month I was totally
serious. Everything that's happened since then was just the denouement.

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=JT...%40comcast.com

Arny Krueger wrote:


Right, when floppy drives wholesaled for $300 you had one *world* and when
they wholesale for $6 you have another.

But knowing how and why they work is good knowledge. When I was starting
in the firld a decade or more ago, techs could tell what was wrong with
a hard drive or power supply by the sound it was making.

Now, nobody cares or knows. - replace and forget.

Still, if I was making speakers, knowing how they work would be vital
knowledge, at least IMO.

What changed is the level of underlying complexity.

True. Still, you adjust. Surface mount technology isn't THAT hard to
analyze and repair.

Unfortunately, acoustics requires either:

1: technical knowledge that nobody on this group possesses.
Engineering and physics degrees and such.

In its former incarnation the group had people who were clearly
well-qualified speaker designers, people like Kantor, Dunlavy etc.

Nice links

They can make a deign from scratch and it works perfectly the first time,

every time.

Nope. There's still a lot of tweaking by instrument and ear of initial
loudspeaker designs, and perfection in speakers is still elusive.

Well, you know what I mean - it's damn good and only needs refinement.
Definately a league unto themselves. Trotsky thinking he's in the same
class is actually amusing.

2:Testing and trail and error based upon rough extimates. That's the
rest of us.


Speak for yourself!


Build acoustic chambers, test designs, tweak with the
cabinets, and so on.

That still happens, regardless of the skill that goes into the initial
design.

Sure. My point is that even the pros do it and double-check their
work with real tools. Real infrastructure.

Greg's approach is a joke. Has he even DONE any analysis of a finished
product?

Here - check out this link:
http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20031006/index.html

*300* steps to make a OEM quality case. People don't even realize
how much time and effort goes into things like speakers and computer
cases. Sure, you get the soft-tooled POS junk that's done in 20
steps at the other end, but most of the industry works like this.

A whole other realm than Trotsky works at.

But thanks for trying to straighten sockpuppet Yustabe out. Mission
Impossible.

I wonder what Greg's customer referral rate will be? Lol.

When I made my "stick a fork in it" comment early last month I was totally
serious. Everything that's happened since then was just the denouement.

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=JT...%40comcast.com

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
ink.net

Arny Krueger wrote:

Right, when floppy drives wholesaled for $300 you had one *world*
and when they wholesale for $6 you have another.

But knowing how and why they work is good knowledge. When I was
starting in the field a decade or more ago, techs could tell what was
wrong with a hard drive or power supply by the sound it was making.

Now, nobody cares or knows. - replace and forget.

Still, if I was making speakers, knowing how they work would be vital
knowledge, at least IMO.

What changed is the level of underlying complexity.

True. Still, you adjust. Surface mount technology isn't THAT hard to
analyze and repair.

My point is that mentally, people optimally analyze and manipulate on a
field with a certain of number of tokens. In order to be effective with a
complex system, the number of tokens has to remain about the same, so each
token has to represent a greater level of complexity. At some point you
forget about individual resistors and capacitors and start working in terms
of circuit boards. For more complex systems you forget about circuit boards
and each token is a box with a level of complexity like a PC.

Unfortunately, acoustics requires either:

1: technical knowledge that nobody on this group possesses.
Engineering and physics degrees and such.

In its former incarnation the group had people who were clearly
well-qualified speaker designers, people like Kantor, Dunlavy etc.

Nice links

I was there, those were far better days for RAO. Trolls like Middius and
Weil intentionally ran these people off. Notice Weil's comment about
"submissives"? Very revealing! I'm not surprised about the content, I'm
surprised he actually said it.

They can make a deign from scratch and it works perfectly the first
time,

every time.

Nope. There's still a lot of tweaking by instrument and ear of
initial loudspeaker designs, and perfection in speakers is still
elusive.

Well, you know what I mean - it's damn good and only needs refinement.
Definitely a league unto themselves. Trotsky thinking he's in the same
class is actually amusing.

Yeah, compare and contrast Greg Singh to Ken Kantor.

LOL!

2:Testing and trail and error based upon rough estimates. That's
the rest of us.

Speak for yourself!

Build acoustic chambers, test designs, tweak with the
cabinets, and so on.

That still happens, regardless of the skill that goes into the
initial design.

Sure. My point is that even the pros do it and double-check their
work with real tools. Real infrastructure.

Agreed. They do more than check, it's still an iterative process.

Greg's approach is a joke. Has he even DONE any analysis of a
finished product?

Well he says he listened to it in at least one room with at least one
recording and I believe that.

Here - check out this link:
http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20031006/index.html

Check out a car plant - we have a few of them around here!

*300* steps to make a OEM quality case.

Since sheet metal/plastic products are a big business where I live, there is
nothing in that article that surprises me in the least. Not one tool I
haven't touched, not one machine I haven't seen, heard, touched, and
smelled, not one operation I haven't done myself from grinding dies to
putting product in cardboard boxes.

People don't even realize
how much time and effort goes into things like speakers and computer
cases. Sure, you get the soft-tooled POS junk that's done in 20
steps at the other end, but most of the industry works like this.

There's a lot more than 300 steps in a car door, not counting the work in
the individual components like the switches and motors.

A whole other realm than Trotsky works at.

Right.

But thanks for trying to straighten sockpuppet Yustabe out. Mission
Impossible.

I wonder what Greg's customer referral rate will be? Lol.

When I made my "stick a fork in it" comment early last month I was
totally serious. Everything that's happened since then was just the
denouement.

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=JT...%40comcast.com

Arny Krueger wrote:


*300* steps to make a OEM quality case.

Since sheet metal/plastic products are a big business where I live, there is
nothing in that article that surprises me in the least. Not one tool I
haven't touched, not one machine I haven't seen, heard, touched, and
smelled, not one operation I haven't done myself from grinding dies to
putting product in cardboard boxes.

What amazes me is for all of those steps, they still sell the cases for
as low as $50.(power supply not included at that price). As near as I can
tell, for instance, they make the cases for Antec, Dell, Gateway, and
probably many of the tower type designs you see from other major OEM
companies.


People don't even realize
how much time and effort goes into things like speakers and computer
cases. Sure, you get the soft-tooled POS junk that's done in 20
steps at the other end, but most of the industry works like this.

There's a lot more than 300 steps in a car door, not counting the work in
the individual components like the switches and motors.

And still, you can buy a (80's technology - acceptable, but not great)
little KIA or Hyundai for $8000 out the door. Yeah, they suck almost
as much as the VW Fox did(what a dreadful car!), but it still is an
amazing amount of parts and work involved.

A whole other realm than Trotsky works at.

I wonder how many steps a typical large manufacturer has for its speakers?
Probably at least 50 if they outsource the drivers and cabinets. If
they make everything, probably on the order of 200+.

"Joseph Oberlander" wrote in message
nk.net

Arny Krueger wrote:

*300* steps to make a OEM quality case.

Since sheet metal/plastic products are a big business where I live,
there is nothing in that article that surprises me in the least. Not
one tool I haven't touched, not one machine I haven't seen, heard,
touched, and smelled, not one operation I haven't done myself from
grinding dies to putting product in cardboard boxes.

What amazes me is for all of those steps, they still sell the cases
for as low as $50.(power supply not included at that price).

That's with a retail markup. If one stoops low enough one can find cases for
under $30 retail, with a power supply. you can't nothing off-the-shelf that
even vaguely compares to the complexity and performance of a PC power supply
for under $100 in a regular electronics catalog. Maybe make that $200.

As near
as I can tell, for instance, they make the cases for Antec, Dell,
Gateway, and probably many of the tower type designs you see from
other major OEM companies.

I'm under the impression that Dell and Gateway have their cases made
domestically, or at least near where the PC is assembled.

When I assemble a PC, I spend a modest amount of time tearing the case down,
if you catch my drift.

Many cases look to me like they were designed to be assembled during the
assembly of the rest of the PC. The assembly of he rest of the PC is often
facilitated by having the plastic front panel removed. Why put it on before
final assembly? Ditto for the sides of the case. Many cases have a tray for
the system board. Why put it into the case until the motherboard is
attached?

Also remember that the actual process of physically building the PC is
heavily outsourced. At times I've seen nearly-identical machines from Dell
and Micron for example, but under the covers they both looked like they were
actually built by Intel.

People don't even realize
how much time and effort goes into things like speakers and computer
cases. Sure, you get the soft-tooled POS junk that's done in 20
steps at the other end, but most of the industry works like this.

Read the article closely, soft-tooling is for high end, low volume cases.

There's a lot more than 300 steps in a car door, not counting the
work in the individual components like the switches and motors.

And still, you can buy a (80's technology - acceptable, but not great)
little KIA or Hyundai for $8000 out the door. Yeah, they suck almost
as much as the VW Fox did(what a dreadful car!), but it still is an
amazing amount of parts and work involved.

Raw steel and plastic don't cost that much. Labor is still a big part of the
out-the-door cost.

A whole other realm than Trotsky works at.

I wonder how many steps a typical large manufacturer has for its
speakers?

That's going to depend on so many things.

Probably at least 50 if they outsource the drivers and cabinets.

Well, almost everybody outsources the drivers. Even if they come from within
the same corporation, the drivers are almost always made in a different
factory. I wouldn't want a driver that was assembled in the same place as
speaker cabinets or systems.

If they make everything, probably on the order of 200+.

I suspect there's a couple of hundred operations in a single driver,
depending on how you count. I've been in driver plants, I should do a mental
count. It's lots, and again there's an issue related to subassemblies. For
example, voice coil assemblies are often outsourced.