If your're referring to the singer and not the song, sing or have the
singer sing sharp all the time.


Rick Ruskin
Lion Dog Music - Seattle WA
http://liondogmusic.com

Mike Rivers wrote:

Well, then tell then NOT to, but to get a little looser. But not too
loose. Again, I reiterate - that's where the experience part comes in.
You might have to record 100 tracks to get 20 that fit together the
way you want. No magic in that, just time and effort, and the ability
to see when you're getting there, when you're going off track, and
when you're finished.

I honestly think we're talking Harmonizer here...

--
ha

"Ricky Hunt" wrote in message news:wu91e.104023$r55.91377@attbi_s52...
"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
news:0381e.26399$oa6.17788@trnddc07...

Either way, as best as I can tell from reading, there hasn't been any
real 'stacking' of the parts done... just cut and paste copies.


I pulled up a few clips from her album and it doesn't sound stacked to me
either (at least by a human doubling the parts). I don't even think with
something Vocalign you could match it up that good.



Well.... I was in reference to the OP's inquiry about that sort of sound,
believing that from what I've read here, that he must be trying to do it
all from cloned tracks without the help of mother nature's stacked parts.

As for Enya... I *do* think the tracks are stacked, at least to a large degree.

The whole concept for the 'effect' that the OP seems to be looking
(I don't know anything about "Brandy"), is created by the lack of perfect
accuracy. In Enya's case, she's just damn good and tends to be spot on
nearly every time & track. I'd certainly be open to correction from rec/mix
engineers who have worked on her sessions, but her stuff sounds very
pleasantly overdubbed to me.

I believe that the sound the OP is looking for requires that bit of human
input which comes from combining multiple takes, not just multiple tracks.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

"Lorin David Schultz" wrote in message news:2vc1e.74205$KI2.5241@clgrps12...
"Geoff Duncan" wrote in message
...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb9.../tracks661.htm

Is this what you are looking for?

Geoff




Attaboy! That's the one!

--
"It CAN'T be too loud... some of the red lights aren't even on yet!"
- Lorin David Schultz
in the control room
making even bad news sound good

(Remove spamblock to reply)


Doggone it.... I don't want to be obnoxious, but I could have sworn (and
I don't have time to Google it) that this discussion went on long enough to
have determined that in this interview, the engineer didn't want to imply
that the use of auto-tune was necessary for the Diva... but eventually,
right here on r.a.p., I could swear (but I won't) that it came to pass that
we discovered that *both* were used to create the final result.

DM

Doggone it.... I don't want to be obnoxious, but I could have sworn (and
I don't have time to Google it) that this discussion went on long enough to
have determined that in this interview, the engineer didn't want to imply
that the use of auto-tune was necessary for the Diva... but eventually,
right here on r.a.p., I could swear (but I won't) that it came to pass that
we discovered that *both* were used to create the final result.

DM

BTW it was never the question... i was asking about the "Brandy" sound ;-)

"Mike Rivers" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:znr1111848655k@trad...
Well, then tell then NOT to, but to get a little looser. But not too
loose. Again, I reiterate - that's where the experience part comes in.
You might have to record 100 tracks to get 20 that fit together the
way you want. No magic in that, just time and effort, and the ability
to see when you're getting there, when you're going off track, and
when you're finished.

Ok thanks for the help. under those 50 answers there were at least 5 helpfull ones. (most of them by mike rivers)

I think i'm trying to get a harmonizer for a day to check out if this will bring the desired result.

thanks.

"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
news:7Fi1e.11775$uw6.2442@trnddc06...

"Ricky Hunt" wrote in message
news:wu91e.104023$r55.91377@attbi_s52...
"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
news:0381e.26399$oa6.17788@trnddc07...

Either way, as best as I can tell from reading, there hasn't been any
real 'stacking' of the parts done... just cut and paste copies.


I pulled up a few clips from her album and it doesn't sound stacked to me
either (at least by a human doubling the parts). I don't even think with
something Vocalign you could match it up that good.



Well.... I was in reference to the OP's inquiry about that sort of sound,
believing that from what I've read here, that he must be trying to do it
all from cloned tracks without the help of mother nature's stacked parts.

As for Enya... I *do* think the tracks are stacked, at least to a large
degree.

The whole concept for the 'effect' that the OP seems to be looking
(I don't know anything about "Brandy"), is created by the lack of perfect
accuracy. In Enya's case, she's just damn good and tends to be spot on
nearly every time & track. I'd certainly be open to correction from
rec/mix
engineers who have worked on her sessions, but her stuff sounds very
pleasantly overdubbed to me.

I believe that the sound the OP is looking for requires that bit of human
input which comes from combining multiple takes, not just multiple tracks.


The Brandy tracks don't sound like that to me. It might have a double low in
the background but this is a real effects type sound.

"Ricky Hunt" wrote in message news:65B1e.23785$fn3.10756@attbi_s01...
"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
news:7Fi1e.11775$uw6.2442@trnddc06...

"Ricky Hunt" wrote in message
news:wu91e.104023$r55.91377@attbi_s52...
"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
news:0381e.26399$oa6.17788@trnddc07...

Either way, as best as I can tell from reading, there hasn't been any
real 'stacking' of the parts done... just cut and paste copies.


I pulled up a few clips from her album and it doesn't sound stacked to me
either (at least by a human doubling the parts). I don't even think with
something Vocalign you could match it up that good.



Well.... I was in reference to the OP's inquiry about that sort of sound,
believing that from what I've read here, that he must be trying to do it
all from cloned tracks without the help of mother nature's stacked parts.

As for Enya... I *do* think the tracks are stacked, at least to a large
degree.

The whole concept for the 'effect' that the OP seems to be looking
(I don't know anything about "Brandy"), is created by the lack of perfect
accuracy. In Enya's case, she's just damn good and tends to be spot on
nearly every time & track. I'd certainly be open to correction from
rec/mix
engineers who have worked on her sessions, but her stuff sounds very
pleasantly overdubbed to me.

I believe that the sound the OP is looking for requires that bit of human
input which comes from combining multiple takes, not just multiple tracks.


The Brandy tracks don't sound like that to me. It might have a double low in
the background but this is a real effects type sound.


I guess this is one to check out... I'll see what I can find to listen to.

DM

We have done work with that sound (depends upon the artist and the
song). I would rate the importance of the items in the chain as
follows:

1. Quality of the vocalists' various textures. For instance, having a
vocalist with a natural and wonderful sounding 'airy' vocal makes
things soooooo much easier. If a vocalist does not have it she does not
have it (and very few do).

2. Quality of the vocal coach (producer, in-tune engineer, the artist
themselves, etc.). Knowing how to accent the main vocal and how and why
to stack the vocals and in what textures is very important!

3. Mic/Preamp combo. For this type of vocal, we are sometimes having
the singer at various distances from the mic on different passages. And
we usually have a set of different timbres that we are going for. As
such, I am typically using a mic/pre combo that leans towards
transparent.

OK, given the above:

1. Do a main, foreground vocal that is to run up the middle and have
relatively no editing/processing. For a more up-close and personal
feel, a mic with 'some' proximity effect is nice.
2. To taste, record many (10, 20, 30) near-identical stacks of the
desired phrases in the vocal. The talent level of the vocalist will
really come into play here! Some cannot duplicate what they just
recorded to save their lives. Others can be so close even after a 5
minutes break that the two will nearly null out if stacked out of
phase. The best vocalists will ask how identical the stack should be.
Some of the best will also suggest ways in which they can vary the
stacks (and will be able to articulate the subtleties of each take).
Also, the headphone mix for the talent is super important! To ease the
job, the singer should be able to clearly hear each of the tracks that
have been laid and differentiate them from the track currently being
laid. So, panning the tracks to where they may likely go in the mix
helps in spades. How many tracks? Experience will let you know when
enough is enough (or what to throw out later). As a side note, some
artists and producers acquire a disease in which they think they need
to add another stack just to be adding another stack. We call them
Stachiaveli (plural: Stachiavelii :-). Now, make SURE that the mic/pre
combo records exactly what you want to hear at this stage. Buildup of
unwanted frequencies happens quite quickly with 10 or more stacks! In
addition, destructively EQ'ing this many tracks (per individual track
or via busses) is not guaranteed to be satisfactory. Again, how many?
As an example, you may want 5 with a touch of pain (as compared to the
original), 3 sung more from the diaphragm, 4 that are 'airy', 4
that are a tad loose/playful and finally, 2 that are whispered with no
tone and get panned wide. Of course, this will all depend upon what you
are reaching for.
3. Throw out tracks that depart too far from the main vocal to be
usable.
4. If all goes well, at this point you have a very nice, lush set of
stacks that compliment the main vocal. If not, you really need another
vocalist or coach (or both). If all is dandy, go to step 5.
5. So, you have lush stacks but they will likely be too out-of-step
with one another (at the beginnings and endings of words). The best way
I have found of reeling them in without killing the naturally variety
is to use an Expander (it is gentler than a Noise Gate and does not
shift the end points of the words as would VocAlign). An Expander
should be used on EACH stacked track since a buss configuration in this
context would kill the purpose. The original vocal should remain
untouched. OK, tailor the settings of the Expanders so that the timing
differences between the stacked tracks cannot be heard, i.e. the
beginnings and ends of words are slightly glossed over but not smeared
per se (can explain in more detail if necessary). This also has the
side-effect of making the stacks a bit dreamy (pad-like) when heard
together as compared to the main vocal. For a more pronounced, staccato
effect (listen to "Bills, Bills, Bills" by Destiny's Child), use
a noise gate instead of an Expander (or use the Expander with full
reduction). I rarely if ever add any processing aside from EQ and
compression (no harmonizer or chorusing).
6. More than likely, even the best vocalist with her best 'airy'
will need some additive EQ in very high registers to complete it. Get a
good analog EQ and boost the whole set slightly at 20k or 30k.

BTW, 25-30 stacks may sound like overkill but there is a huge,
qualitative difference in 25 purposefully, but subtlety, varied stacks
and a single track with increased gain (or even a bunch of time-shifted
copies). In fact, the end, average gain of the stacks should not exceed
that of a doubled take.

Hope this helps.

Hassan

hank alrich wrote:
Enya does. g

Enya... Cher... Brandy...

Looks like the real key is to have a singer with one name.

Theodore wrote:
hank alrich wrote:
Enya does. g

Enya... Cher... Brandy...

Looks like the real key is to have a singer with one name.

Doesn't work for Bono.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article writes:

Looks like the real key is to have a singer with one name.

Doesn't work for Bono.

But Mary Ford and Patti Page disprove that theory.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Theodore wrote:
hank alrich wrote:
Enya does. g

Enya... Cher... Brandy...

Looks like the real key is to have a singer with one name.

Doesn't work for Bono.

He lacks the other key, the nook key.

--
ha

"Hassan Davis" wrote in message
ups.com...
We have done work with that sound (depends upon the artist and the
song).


You obviously have. Great post, Hassan.

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