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#41
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"snabbu" wrote in message ... Paul Stamler wrote: ..... I am now wondering something. Let's say for example your standard vocal recording chain is to go through EQ filters, De-esser/compressor, limiter. When you are tracking. All of these steps will cause some distortion. And the gear adds extra expense. Is it possible to get a similar result. By going through a pre amp without any effects and then processing the signal as above with good quality plug ins and dithering. In other words doing it post digitally, rather than on tracking. I suspect there is a noise to signal ratio issue here, but is it a big enough deal when you consider in a home studio, you can then dedicate all the input budget to a microphone and a pre, rather than a combo unit. Or is there a distinct difference between tracking and post processing. Sorry to be asking so many questions. Cheers Gary The theory is that every operation that is done in the analog domain adds distortion and noise. As you suggest, in theory the ideal is to get the purest possible raw signal and digitise it. Any possible operation that can be done in the analog domain can then be done in the digital domain, provided you can obtain a program to do it. The problem is that it is very difficult to determine exactly what certain analog processes are doing to a signal, and to know how to produce exactly the same effect in software. Since everybodies ear is different, with the current state of the art, it is down to personal experience and taste. Until we advance to the stage where it is impossible for anybody to tell real from recorded, or artificial from real, that is going to be the way it is. That may be a better day that not everybody welcomes. David F. Cox |
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#42
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On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 01:34:19 +0000,
(Dave Howard) wrote: It depends on so many things. Are the convertors on a PCI card inside the computer? That's likely, and if so the "quality" will be compromised. Like I say elsewhere though I don't think its the recording hardware thats at fault. Don't forget that the stand-alone recorder is a computer too. Just a rather limited-function one. CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
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#43
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On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 20:48:09 -0500, "GDN" wrote:
Do NOT mic the instruments. Instruments go to audio-in. Where the computer studio is concerned, you should only mic the vocals. Miking a guitar amp is standard practice. CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
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#44
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On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 20:59:21 -0500, "GDN" wrote:
Oya, and as for monitors, you should all use headphones, only. No open-air monitors. Well, maybe. The aim is surely the best performance, not complete separation of instruments and a squeaky-clean recording. CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm "Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect |
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#46
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Laurence Payne wrote:
Don't forget that the stand-alone recorder is a computer too. Just a rather limited-function one. Except it turns on and off quickly. And doesn't crash, and makes a fraction of the noise, and doesn't require a mouse! |
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#48
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The results you are getting are almost certainly due to your lack of
recording experience rather than the tools you are using. A stand-alone recorder will be at best, equal to the quality of the computer. The cheaper stand-alone recorders compress the audio automatically to fit it on smaller hard drives and therefore will not be as good as the WAV files you will record on the PC. I'd like to take a listen to one of your attempts to see where the problems lie. Email me if you want me to try mixing one for you. ----- Lynn ============== Listen to my music... http://www.soundclick.com/wobbly http://www.soundclick.com/lynn http://www.soundclick.com/dickosboogieband http://music.download.com/lynn/3600-...tag=list#songs http://www.wobblymusic.net "Ernest Siu" wrote in message om... As subject, what is the main difference for a computer and a stand-alone digital recorder, in terms of quality? I've been trying to do some track-at-a-time recording for our band using a computer with audigy platinum and cakewalk/cooledit and the results are horrid. You'll probably say 'use a 2496 instead of SB' but I'm only looking to get some demo-like quality, not the diff. of 16vs24 bits or anything to that kind of detail. I've heard results from Boss BR864 ($400) and it's so much better already. I don't understand at all... Is my recording skill that bad??? The box is pretty much mixing up different track just like I do... Several general 'complains' from my band: 1. Vocal sounds too 'amateur' and 'home-record': like what you hear speaking over a PA. We've tried with $30 AT stuff and Studio Project B1. The mixer is sort of a Behringer thing. Can pre-amp be that sucky? 2. Guitarists say it doesn't sound like what's on the amp. We tried direct from his amp (some line 6) to the mixer and to the computer, and also using a dynamic mic to tap the amp directly... still doesn't sounds like what we hear from the amp. 3. Drums -- this is most difficult. It almost always sounds very 'far away', even though we used mic to tap kick, snare and one for the cymbals. Tried some low end pair of cigar condensers for cymbals still doesn't help. Ironically using a shotgun condenser (for camcorder) from a distance got best results, except for the kick. I'm wonder if buying any of those stand-alone recorder will 'by-pass' a lot of errors that we have made so it'll make a better sound recording than using a computer+mixer for amateur like me? Or is it just skill that I lack so doesn't matter which way, it's gonna suck??? We don't need great sound, just demo quality so we are very hesitant to go for studio time. Ernest |
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#49
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I've finally got around to dedicating a corner of my house solely to my music, and I was wondering how people solve the PC noise problem? I was thinking of putting the box in the cupboard and running the cables under the door. Has anyone been successful with noiseless fans, etc.? -- Michael J. Anthony I use a laptop with an external Firewire hard drive. Dead quiet in my small (12x10) recording space. If I had a big PC box I'd put it in the next room and run the cables through a hole in the wall, and have the monitor and keyboard and mouse with me. Carlos |
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#50
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Thanks for all reply......
Everything goes through the mixer. Tape-out RCA from the mixer is converted to a 1/4 stereo to the line-in of the Audigy Platinum. The room is a rec room in basement, with insulation but no dry wall. It's about 14x16x9 but it's pretty crowded - a set of drums, 4 amps, pedals/DIs, couple keyboards, mixer and the computer with a pair of monitor, 2 mics with stands, music stands, gig bags, wires everywhere, plus a single bed with mattress standing against a wall, and some stuff like stacks of toilet paper and a vacuum cleaner. Here is one of our recording. Please bear with the sound: http://unitedplanet.homeip.net/music...anet_Final.mp3 How important are these effects for post-record mixing (i.e. software effects)? Compression, normalization, chorus, reverb, amp sim. I don't want to use them unless necessary because my lack of skill will probably make it sounds worse! I have cooledit2 and cakewalk music-creator... Is there any free fx-plug-in available on web? Or maybe to be purchased somewhere? Also some other questions: - When does one use 'gain' on the mixer? - Drums mic-ing - more mic or less mic (for amateur like me)? - What are some simple way to 'treat' the room accoustic? Hanging egg boxes on the wall? Where should I place the drum? Currently it's against one wall facing out. Cheers, Ernest |
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#51
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In article .com,
says... plus a single bed with mattress standing against a wall, and some stuff like stacks of toilet paper and a vacuum cleaner. What make of vacuum cleaner? ;-) Here is one of our recording. Please bear with the sound: http://unitedplanet.homeip.net/music...anet_Final.mp3 You've got the frequency response and the levels okay, but presence and separation are quite lacking. It sounds a lot like you miked the room and not the individual instruments. Oh and make sure you muted the monitors while you were recording! Everyone who wants to monitor themselves should be using headphones. How important are these effects for post-record mixing (i.e. software effects)? Compression, normalization, chorus, reverb, amp sim. You didn't say if you were adding these effects at the mixer stage, but as a rule, they are extremely important tools and you must learn when and where to use them - and how much. Generally the vocal should be compressed, possibly chorused, and then reverbed. I'm told that drums should be compressed. Your vocalist is fine in most parts but he hits several bad notes in this take. The most effective solution for that is to record multiple takes and splice them together. don't want to use them unless necessary because my lack of skill will probably make it sounds worse! Good old trial and error is a perfectly good place to start. - When does one use 'gain' on the mixer? Your mixer manual might explain it best, but the purpose of gain is to allow you to get you the best signal-to-noise ratio without clipping. Generally the gain should be set as high as possible before clipping (distortion) occurs at the loudest part of the song. Of course, if your gain stage is too noisy, high levels of gain might introduce extra noise/hiss, in which case you should reduce the gain to find a better balance between signal and noise. - Drums mic-ing - more mic or less mic (for amateur like me)? Someone else can give you a formula, but there isn't any better than trial and error. Naturaly, more mics = more control over the sound. - What are some simple way to 'treat' the room accoustic? Hanging egg boxes on the wall? Where should I place the drum? Currently it's against one wall facing out. Again, just listen to it though your headphones and try it in different places. It's your sound. You be the judge. -- Michael J. Anthony The Duck Wars, a song of food versus evil, at www.michaeljanthony.com |
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#52
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"ernest" wrote in message
oups.com... - Drums mic-ing - more mic or less mic (for amateur like me)? Less mic. Two decent-quality condensers in "XY" arrangement (that means nose-to-nose with the capsules stacked on top of one another and the microphones angled at 110 degrees, with the left-pointing one connected to the left channel input and the right-pointing one to the right-channel input) plus a dynamic mic in the kick drum -- that's a good starting point. Hang the XY pair over the kit and move it around until you like the balance; bring in the kick mic as needed. - What are some simple way to 'treat' the room accoustic? Hanging egg boxes on the wall? No. They have approximately the effect of nothing at all. Go to the public library and check out some of F. Alton Everest's books on designing small studios. Don't start with the Master Handbook of Acoustics, but one of the less fancy ones. Peace, Paul |
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#53
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"snabbu" a écrit dans le message de
... As I have been told that the pre and the mic are of equal importance. The more important is good combination of a mic and a preamp, all that being largely a matter of taste, of genre, and of voice. The basic advice is then to try. -- ~~~~ clmasse on free dot F-country http://jude.iuma.com/ |
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#54
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I've been wondering about this as well.
My needs are a bit different as I'd like to use a portable recorder as a learnign/teaching tool, plus have something this is portable that I can take to open mics and jams Take a look at my website to see what I've done with the ZOOM PS04..for a portable recorder, I'm ecstatic. I got some Auralex acoustic foam today. I'm going to build myself a small recording bay in an extra bedroom to see how a mic works in a better environment jerry http://www.jerrysbigworld.com/Experi...4.html#Topic11 |
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#55
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On 5 Jan 2005 10:21:54 -0800, (Ernest Siu) wrote:
As subject, what is the main difference for a computer and a stand-alone digital recorder, in terms of quality? There isn't much difference in terms of quality if you compare apples to apples. That is to say both having quality A/D-D/A converters and good editing software. The difference is versatility and cost. Personally, I think a PC with "Audition" and "Wavelabs" (or comparable software) combined with good recording hardware is the best way to go. Versatility is unmatched with this setup. Good recording hardware will have a PCI card along with an external, rack mount or tabletop device for all you inputs and outputs. With the above, you can record your tracks raw, direct to HD and all editing, mixing, eq, effects will be non-destructive so you never actually alter the original raw tracks. Everything is done in real-time giving you the ability to easily make changes or have multiple mixes. The more powerful the PC, the better. A quality, fast DVD burner is a must! There will be quite a learning curve no matter which way you go. I have gained a tremendous respect for good sound engineers over the years. Expect to pay $1500-$2000 for the PC and recording hardware at a minimum. Then there is the software, good mics and a quality mixer. Never try to mix with headphones unless you want your recordings to sound good only on headphones. Now you may be able to get use to mixing with headphones and avoid any reference problems, but you really need a good set of near field monitors. Makes life easier. I couldn't buy everything all at once in my setup. I had to buy a piece here and a piece there. Just don't get cheap and go with low priced junk. You'd be better off taking your time, saving your pennies and purchasing something good.  Good Luck!! Scott ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ Gap Creek Road http://www.soundclick.com/bands/gapcreekroadmusic.htm http://www.soundclick.com/bands/gapcreekroad.htm http://www.gapcreekroad.com Upstate Forums Discussion Boards http://www.upstateforums.com |
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#56
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"Michael J. Anthony" wrote in message ... In article , says... Except it turns on and off quickly. And doesn't crash, and makes a fraction of the noise, and doesn't require a mouse! I've finally got around to dedicating a corner of my house solely to my music, and I was wondering how people solve the PC noise problem? I was thinking of putting the box in the cupboard and running the cables under the door. Has anyone been successful with noiseless fans, etc.? I've been dealing with this issue for a while. in my last residence, i cut a hole in the wall and just put the box in the other room. now i don't have that option. i have two rooms that i can use for monitoring. one room is a little box, like 10X10 feet almost a cube. the room sounds like crap and i dont think i want to even try and make it sound better. the other room sounds great but there's nowhere to put the computer within the unbalanced distance (for my inputs), the room next to my monitoring area is a very hot side attic; so i put a glass-door cabinet (open back) in the closet, lined the inside with carpet pad, and built a wooden door for the front (with carpet padding on the inside). i put ice packs inside the cabinet with the computer and hope for the best. there is still some noise from the closet, but with a baffle between me and the closet (or if i'm recording in there between the mic and the closet with the mic pointed away from that area) the resulting noise is apparently below the NF. what a pain! there must be a better, budget friendly way... -alan |
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#57
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"greggery peccary" .@. wrote in message ... "Michael J. Anthony" wrote in message ... In article , says... Except it turns on and off quickly. And doesn't crash, and makes a fraction of the noise, and doesn't require a mouse! I've finally got around to dedicating a corner of my house solely to my music, and I was wondering how people solve the PC noise problem? I was thinking of putting the box in the cupboard and running the cables under the door. Has anyone been successful with noiseless fans, etc.? I've been dealing with this issue for a while. in my last residence, i cut a hole in the wall and just put the box in the other room. now i don't have that option. i have two rooms that i can use for monitoring. one room is a little box, like 10X10 feet almost a cube. the room sounds like crap and i dont think i want to even try and make it sound better. the other room sounds great but there's nowhere to put the computer within the unbalanced distance (for my inputs), the room next to my monitoring area is a very hot side attic; so i put a glass-door cabinet (open back) in the closet, lined the inside with carpet pad, and built a wooden door for the front (with carpet padding on the inside). i put ice packs inside the cabinet with the computer and hope for the best. there is still some noise from the closet, but with a baffle between me and the closet (or if i'm recording in there between the mic and the closet with the mic pointed away from that area) the resulting noise is apparently below the NF. what a pain! there must be a better, budget friendly way... Several of the newer cases/power supplies and CPU heat sinks are remarkably quiet. I just assembled a new NLE system at the office with an Antec case/PS and it is almost 20dB quieter than its predecessor. |
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#58
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In article ,
says... Several of the newer cases/power supplies and CPU heat sinks are remarkably quiet. I just assembled a new NLE system at the office with an Antec case/PS and it is almost 20dB quieter than its predecessor. I agree that some of the "silent" PSUs are the way to go, and also passive CPU heatsinks are coming back in "media center" PCs, but still the noise from the hard drive is there. Maybe a solid state (static-RAM) based hard drive would be a truly silent beast? -- Michael J. Anthony Duckmares are coming www.michaeljanthony.com |
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#59
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I found Fujitsu hard drives to be very quite compared to western digital and
maxtor. Seagate drives are supposed to be silent. You can get a silent power supply. Insulate the inside walls of the pc case with acoustic dampening material Get silent case fans and cpu fans which run at low rpm's or use fanless heatsink cpu coolers. Silent cd-rom's and dvd-rom's. Build a silent pc sites: http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-118-1.htm http://www.silentpcreview.com/article87-page1.html http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/May0...ilentdrive.asp http://www.silent.se/solutions.php http://www.mirar.org/silent-pc/ http://www.ocshoot.no/quietpc.htm http://www.silent.se/web.php "Michael J. Anthony" wrote in message ... In article , says... Several of the newer cases/power supplies and CPU heat sinks are remarkably quiet. I just assembled a new NLE system at the office with an Antec case/PS and it is almost 20dB quieter than its predecessor. I agree that some of the "silent" PSUs are the way to go, and also passive CPU heatsinks are coming back in "media center" PCs, but still the noise from the hard drive is there. Maybe a solid state (static-RAM) based hard drive would be a truly silent beast? -- Michael J. Anthony Duckmares are coming www.michaeljanthony.com |
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#60
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"Michael J. Anthony" wrote in message ... In article , says... Several of the newer cases/power supplies and CPU heat sinks are remarkably quiet. I just assembled a new NLE system at the office with an Antec case/PS and it is almost 20dB quieter than its predecessor. I agree that some of the "silent" PSUs are the way to go, and also passive CPU heatsinks are coming back in "media center" PCs, but still the noise from the hard drive is there. Maybe a solid state (static-RAM) based hard drive would be a truly silent beast? The cases designed to minimize noise (like the Antec I just used) have rubber mounts for the hard drives to keep their noise from being transmitted to the computer case. Makes a noticable difference. OTOH, it also keeps the heat from the drives from having a "heat- sink" effect to the computer case. |
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#61
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