Frank Mazzola wrote:
Well, that was fascinating. I appreciate you comments and candor. As
a classical pianist though, part of my expression is in the nuances in
the music and tone colorations, some of which are spontaneous with
each performance. It's hard for me to believe that the feel of a
keyboard can be the same as that of an acoustic piano, but I haven't
tried any of the more recent ones, so I can't judge.
-Frank

And I do appreciate your comments and candor, as well, for you are
correct, and there is nothing quite like a real piano.

My point I think is that the MIDI keyboard has come a long way and
really isn't that bad. I have professional, classical pianists who are
now turning to it, and it is not because I am doing anything to
influence them. It is not the horrible thing it once was, and it is
getting better with time. As for the purely mechanical feel goes, it
is now as good, especially since real pianos vary so much anyway. But
as for the translation of that mechanical action into all the subtly
different nuances of sound, it does have a long way to go.

Getting back to recording a real piano with microphones, my take on it
is that you would be best with microphones driving a preamp driving a
sound card on your PC. This allows you to play something multiple times
while continuously recording, then going into the computer and editing
the takes together after the fact.

If you want a close, warm, wide sound, PZMs ($250 each) mounted to the
underside of the lid will do this. I put one over the center of the
high end strings (i.e. near the hammers) and the second one in the
center of the lower end strings (i.e. much deeper down.) If you want a
more distant, brighter sound, then two condenser microphones ($250 each)
pointed horizontally at the lid at two different positions will do this.
The further away, the more authentic, but the more ambient noise
issues. The closer, the more you pick up internal piano noise.

This is how I generally start out when attacking a piano. But there are
other approaches. You need to listen to different people's advice and
try different things.

A couple of other people mentioned this as well, but your ear carefully
moving around the piano is the best place to start in assessing what
kind of sound you want. You might even try a few sample recordings with
somebody's cheap consumer gear (but not too cheap!), just to see where
you are in the ballpark and do some experimentation, assuming you don't
have access to the pro gear before you buy it.

A couple of clarifications to my last post, which might be misconstrued:

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

really isn't that bad. I have professional, classical pianists who are
now turning to it, and it is not because I am doing anything to

The "professional, classical pianists" are not turning to it to do solo,
classical piano recordings. The point is that they are professional,
classical pianists who are accepting its use in other circumstances
(i.e. accompaniment, or along with other instruments, or for a more
contemporary piece that they wrote, etc.)

more distant, brighter sound, then two condenser microphones ($250 each)
pointed horizontally at the lid at two different positions will do this.

I mean that you have the piano lid at half-stick or so, and the two
microphones are outside of the piano horizontally pointed in the
direction of the lid opening.

A couple of clarifications to my last post, which might be misconstrued:

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

really isn't that bad. I have professional, classical pianists who are
now turning to it, and it is not because I am doing anything to

The "professional, classical pianists" are not turning to it to do solo,
classical piano recordings. The point is that they are professional,
classical pianists who are accepting its use in other circumstances
(i.e. accompaniment, or along with other instruments, or for a more
contemporary piece that they wrote, etc.)

more distant, brighter sound, then two condenser microphones ($250 each)
pointed horizontally at the lid at two different positions will do this.

I mean that you have the piano lid at half-stick or so, and the two
microphones are outside of the piano horizontally pointed in the
direction of the lid opening.

On 09 Jul 2004 07:39:46 GMT, ScotFraser wrote:
It's hard for me to believe that the feel of a
keyboard can be the same as that of an acoustic piano, but I haven't
tried any of the more recent ones, so I can't judge.

As a classical pianist, you really needn't bother. There is no MIDI device
available, nor will there ever be, that has anything remotely approaching the
degree of expressiveness you will achieve on your grand piano.


Well, you'd have to find one on Ebay, but a Yamaha CP-80M, though the
tuning of the bass end is always a bit dicey.

Mind you, the SOUND isn't there, but the expressiveness is. It's really
its own "thing" We used one in a restauraunt/showtunes gig. Still
sounds better than any digital I've heard.

For 18th-19th Century rep, you really want not on A piano, but THE
piano, which is usually several different pianos, depending on the
combination of pianist and piece.

Get a couple of Pretty Good microphones and experiment. Eventually,
you'll hit on your recipie for "the sound." As they're mostly for your
own use, experimentation is cheap.

On 09 Jul 2004 07:39:46 GMT, ScotFraser wrote:
It's hard for me to believe that the feel of a
keyboard can be the same as that of an acoustic piano, but I haven't
tried any of the more recent ones, so I can't judge.

As a classical pianist, you really needn't bother. There is no MIDI device
available, nor will there ever be, that has anything remotely approaching the
degree of expressiveness you will achieve on your grand piano.


Well, you'd have to find one on Ebay, but a Yamaha CP-80M, though the
tuning of the bass end is always a bit dicey.

Mind you, the SOUND isn't there, but the expressiveness is. It's really
its own "thing" We used one in a restauraunt/showtunes gig. Still
sounds better than any digital I've heard.

For 18th-19th Century rep, you really want not on A piano, but THE
piano, which is usually several different pianos, depending on the
combination of pianist and piece.

Get a couple of Pretty Good microphones and experiment. Eventually,
you'll hit on your recipie for "the sound." As they're mostly for your
own use, experimentation is cheap.

In article writes:

I am an experienced classical pianist but a beginner at recording. I
want to make decent quality recordings, but only to distribute to Mom
and friends, and to listen to myself. I need a system that will be
responsive to rapid passages and wide tonal colors. As far as the
Baldwin goes.. I really want a Steinway but can't afford it!

If you don't mind using a computer for this job, I think you'd be a
good candidated for one of the USB or Firewire "sound cards" that have
a built-in mic preamp, and maybe even some "helper" signal routing for
monitoring, plus a pair of modest condenser mics.

You probably can't swing any really useful monitor speakers on your
budget, so be prepared to do a lot of test recording and listening to
playback on a few different household sound systems to find the best
placement for your microphones with your piano. Don't even think about
signal processing software - other than perhaps a bit of low frequency
cut to reduce ambient noise, you really shouldn't be messing with it
until you can hear what you're doing.

By using a computer as your recorder, you'll have the best technical
quality you can afford, plus you'll have the capability to edit your
performance, put tunes in order, and burn CDs all on the same machine.
I don't know if there's still a decent $50 audio program, but the
TASCAM US-122 audio interface will do what you need and comes with a
copy of Cubasis, which is adequate for your purposes. A pair of MXL
603 mics, a decent boom stand, and a stereo mounting bar should get
you going.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

I am an experienced classical pianist but a beginner at recording. I
want to make decent quality recordings, but only to distribute to Mom
and friends, and to listen to myself. I need a system that will be
responsive to rapid passages and wide tonal colors. As far as the
Baldwin goes.. I really want a Steinway but can't afford it!

If you don't mind using a computer for this job, I think you'd be a
good candidated for one of the USB or Firewire "sound cards" that have
a built-in mic preamp, and maybe even some "helper" signal routing for
monitoring, plus a pair of modest condenser mics.

You probably can't swing any really useful monitor speakers on your
budget, so be prepared to do a lot of test recording and listening to
playback on a few different household sound systems to find the best
placement for your microphones with your piano. Don't even think about
signal processing software - other than perhaps a bit of low frequency
cut to reduce ambient noise, you really shouldn't be messing with it
until you can hear what you're doing.

By using a computer as your recorder, you'll have the best technical
quality you can afford, plus you'll have the capability to edit your
performance, put tunes in order, and burn CDs all on the same machine.
I don't know if there's still a decent $50 audio program, but the
TASCAM US-122 audio interface will do what you need and comes with a
copy of Cubasis, which is adequate for your purposes. A pair of MXL
603 mics, a decent boom stand, and a stereo mounting bar should get
you going.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Todd Lipcon wrote:
In article ,
"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote:

I talked about recording acoustic pianos live with microphones, then
posted a sound file that was not one.


Good. I'm glad to hear my ears aren't crazy. My first thought was
"that's a really odd sounding piano. It sounds really mechanical." My
second thought was "hmm... this isn't MIDI???" And then I read this
reply. As for it sounding like the midrange is missing, I agree. It's
not so much the midrange of the audio spectrum as much as a sort of
feeling that each note has been scooped out. I get the feeling the notes
are U-shaped rather than O-shaped, if that makes any sense.

I gave Gabe Weiner a recording once of a flute and Yamaha clavinova. And
it took him a few seconds, but he turned to me and said, "there is something
very wrong with that piano."

I considered the fact that he said "there is something very wrong with that
piano" rather than saying "that is a fake piano." to be a sign that fake
piano technology had advanced pretty strongly. And it really _did_ sound
like a wrong piano rather than obiously electronic.

I haven't heard the mp3, though, since I am still on a shell account from
a terminal.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Todd Lipcon wrote:
In article ,
"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote:

I talked about recording acoustic pianos live with microphones, then
posted a sound file that was not one.


Good. I'm glad to hear my ears aren't crazy. My first thought was
"that's a really odd sounding piano. It sounds really mechanical." My
second thought was "hmm... this isn't MIDI???" And then I read this
reply. As for it sounding like the midrange is missing, I agree. It's
not so much the midrange of the audio spectrum as much as a sort of
feeling that each note has been scooped out. I get the feeling the notes
are U-shaped rather than O-shaped, if that makes any sense.

I gave Gabe Weiner a recording once of a flute and Yamaha clavinova. And
it took him a few seconds, but he turned to me and said, "there is something
very wrong with that piano."

I considered the fact that he said "there is something very wrong with that
piano" rather than saying "that is a fake piano." to be a sign that fake
piano technology had advanced pretty strongly. And it really _did_ sound
like a wrong piano rather than obiously electronic.

I haven't heard the mp3, though, since I am still on a shell account from
a terminal.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Well, you'd have to find one on Ebay, but a Yamaha CP-80M, though the
tuning of the bass end is always a bit dicey.
Mind you, the SOUND isn't there, but the expressiveness is. It's really
its own "thing" We used one in a restauraunt/showtunes gig. Still
sounds better than any digital I've heard.

Those were pretty odd animals. They sound kinda like pianos the way an Ovation
plugged into an amp sounds kinda like an acoustic guitar. The bass strings are,
what, maybe 2 & a half feet long. Yeah, weird beasts, & also odd how, unlike a
Wurlitzer or Rhodes, they have no cache whatsoever in the vintage market.

Scott Fraser

Well, you'd have to find one on Ebay, but a Yamaha CP-80M, though the
tuning of the bass end is always a bit dicey.
Mind you, the SOUND isn't there, but the expressiveness is. It's really
its own "thing" We used one in a restauraunt/showtunes gig. Still
sounds better than any digital I've heard.

Those were pretty odd animals. They sound kinda like pianos the way an Ovation
plugged into an amp sounds kinda like an acoustic guitar. The bass strings are,
what, maybe 2 & a half feet long. Yeah, weird beasts, & also odd how, unlike a
Wurlitzer or Rhodes, they have no cache whatsoever in the vintage market.

Scott Fraser

On 09 Jul 2004 15:57:21 GMT, ScotFraser wrote:

Those were pretty odd animals. They sound kinda like pianos the way an Ovation
plugged into an amp sounds kinda like an acoustic guitar. The bass strings are,
what, maybe 2 & a half feet long. Yeah, weird beasts, & also odd how, unlike a
Wurlitzer or Rhodes, they have no cache whatsoever in the vintage market.

Scott Fraser

I think another 20 years might change that when people want "That 1980's
Peter Gabrial Sound" or something similar.

On 09 Jul 2004 15:57:21 GMT, ScotFraser wrote:

Those were pretty odd animals. They sound kinda like pianos the way an Ovation
plugged into an amp sounds kinda like an acoustic guitar. The bass strings are,
what, maybe 2 & a half feet long. Yeah, weird beasts, & also odd how, unlike a
Wurlitzer or Rhodes, they have no cache whatsoever in the vintage market.

Scott Fraser

I think another 20 years might change that when people want "That 1980's
Peter Gabrial Sound" or something similar.

What do you guys think of Helpinstill?

I have had good results with one live, but I never tried it in the
studio.

But in one's home, where acoustics might be poor, a Helpinstill mixed
with a stereo pair of mics may give a good result -it'd be even, if
nothing else...

What do you guys think of Helpinstill?

I have had good results with one live, but I never tried it in the
studio.

But in one's home, where acoustics might be poor, a Helpinstill mixed
with a stereo pair of mics may give a good result -it'd be even, if
nothing else...

What do you guys think of Helpinstill?

I think it makes an acoustic piano sound like an electric guitar. Now, I happen
to like electric guitars, but not when the musician is actually playing a
piano.

I have had good results with one live, but I never tried it in the
studio.

Live it has the big advantage of allowing you to get the pianist's monitors
ungodly loud. Shouldn't be sent to FOH, though, IMO.

But in one's home, where acoustics might be poor, a Helpinstill mixed
with a stereo pair of mics may give a good result -it'd be even, if
nothing else...

It's a sound, just like an Ovation plugged into an amp is a sound.

Scott Fraser

What do you guys think of Helpinstill?

I think it makes an acoustic piano sound like an electric guitar. Now, I happen
to like electric guitars, but not when the musician is actually playing a
piano.

I have had good results with one live, but I never tried it in the
studio.

Live it has the big advantage of allowing you to get the pianist's monitors
ungodly loud. Shouldn't be sent to FOH, though, IMO.

But in one's home, where acoustics might be poor, a Helpinstill mixed
with a stereo pair of mics may give a good result -it'd be even, if
nothing else...

It's a sound, just like an Ovation plugged into an amp is a sound.

Scott Fraser

"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote in message ...
A couple of clarifications to my last post, which might be misconstrued:

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

really isn't that bad. I have professional, classical pianists who are
now turning to it, and it is not because I am doing anything to...

Garth,
Thanks again for your thoughts. I will continue my search for the
best mikes to suit my needs and fit my budget.
-Frank

"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote in message ...
A couple of clarifications to my last post, which might be misconstrued:

Garth D. Wiebe wrote:

really isn't that bad. I have professional, classical pianists who are
now turning to it, and it is not because I am doing anything to...

Garth,
Thanks again for your thoughts. I will continue my search for the
best mikes to suit my needs and fit my budget.
-Frank