"Ethan Winer"

And if both pins 2 and 3 have a "real" signal on them relative to pin 1,
which "real" one are you talking about?

Yes, of course that was my point. What device would have signal on only
one
pin of a balanced output?!


** Been living in a vacuum for the last 30 years have you ???


Frankly, I'm surprised you expended so much energy on someone who's first
post to this thread summarized with "Are you so dumb you cannot figure out
why ?"


** The correctness of my words above has just been proved beyond all doubt.



It's sad that rudeness is so common these days.


** I agree - your rudeness is appalling Ethan.

It is the height of ignorance to contradict folk who know far more than you
do.



................ Phil

Ethan Winer wrote:

Graham,

Since there is no 'absolute' phase for the a bass guitar

Bingo - you get the prize for the most useful answer out of these 21
replies.

Thank you kindly Sir ! ;-)

I should however have written *polarity* rather than phase to be totally
technically accurate.

Though Mike's "Ouija board" to let the spirits decide the hot pin
is a close runner-up. :-)

With a single source like a bass direct out, the polarity is irrelevant.
Heck, which direction would you have them pluck the string to get a "plus"
initial swing anyway?

I *have* been wondering as it happens ! Than again, is your pickup polarity
correct too ? I believe Scott Dorsey and/or Mike Rivers ? has / have made
comments in the past regarding signal polarity regarding analogue tape
machines - as in 'does the output follow tape flux ?' kind of thing !


Graham

Phil Allison wrote:

"Mike Rivers"
"Phil Allison"


** Polarity ( or absolute phase) is NOT the issue here - which XLR
pin
has a real signal on it *** IS *** .

Are you so dumb you cannot figure out why ?

And if both pins 2 and 3 have a "real" signal on them relative to
pin 1, which "real" one are you talking about?

** As usual, the NG parrot confounds a simple issue with an irrelevance.
Bet he has never heard of "pseudo balanced" or "impedance balanced" where
only one pin has a signal - very common.

Hahahahaa.

The AllisonBot spews more irrelevant garbage.

The Bot is pre-programmed to obfuscate the isssue by quoting out of context tech
issues of its choice.


Graham

Ethan Winer wrote:

snip

It's sad that rudeness is so common these days. People say and do things
behind their keyboards and behind the steering wheel of their car that
they'd never do face to face at a party or business meeting.

In Phil's case I'm not so sure actually - but yes - the absence of personal
contact can bring out the worst in many ppl.

Funnily enough, in comparison, good manners cost nothing and may also bring out
the best in your respondent too.


Graham

"Mike Rivers"

Phil Allison

** How does Mike Rivers manage to remove **people's names** from every
one
of his posts ???

"Mike Rivers"

I would normally remove this because it is not relevant to the post
I'm about to write.


** People's names ***ARE*** relevant and **MUST** be left in sight.

Only a pig ignorant arse would delete them.

And one is.



Does he deliberately snip them just to annoy folk ?
Like he deliberately snips the context from all posts before answering
them
with irrelevances.

Have I snipped anything from here so far that's relevant?


** Only all the damn time.


I leave in what's relevant and snip what isn't relevant to my reply...


** So you **DELIBERATELY** take people's words out of context ***SO***
you can post your idiot replies.



However, the use of a blanced output with only one side driven (which
clearly defines "hot") is relatively new in pro audio gear.


** Been in popular use for 20 years or more.

No, it's been IN USE for 20 years or more. I first encountered it with
a microphone. In the field of "popular pro audio" it was popularized
by Mackie with their "Balanced/Unbalnced" outputs.


** Soundcraft desks ( among others) have used pseudo balanced outputs for
20 years or more.



** Confusion still reigns because the driven pin may be either one of
two.

However, if only one of those pins is driven (and the other connected
to the reference, usually "ground") the output polarity relative to
the input will be determined by which pin is driven. This may or may
not be important in the grand scheme of things, but it's easy enough
to get it right.


** Another example of Mike snipping the context so he could post an idiot
reply.



** Whether pin 2 carries the signal or not needs to be determined by
carrying out a test, inspection of relevant labelling or inspection of
the
unit's manual - not by guess work or squawking.


Agreed. With equipment built in recent years to de facto, and later,
AES standards, given the lack of documentation and the inconvenience
of testing before making connections, it's not unreasonable to assume
that Pin 2 will have a signal on it relative to Pin 3, a necessary
condition to feed a differential Pin 2/3 input if you expect to get
anything out of the fed device. That assumption will be correct most
of the time.


** Whether pin 2 carries the signal or not needs to be determined by
carrying out a test, inspection of relevant labelling or inspection of the
unit's manual - not by guess work or squawking.



............... Phil

Geoff Wood wrote:

Ethan Winer wrote:
Mike,

Well now you're getting into issues of acoustical polarity, and bass,
particularly when played in a slapping or popping style, is one of
those things that often sounds different when you invert the
polarity. But that's not phase.

Right, that's not phase.

Being a badd player, I think it is polarity. Absolute phase (as opposed to
relative). The percusive thumpy edge - it's like the difference between
"blow" and "suck",

So, I guess the initial 'pluck' should produce a positive going signal ?

Oh, and just in passing regarding polarity, I see that JBL persist ( at least
in some models ) in their unique convention that positive volts on the red
terminal results in the cone moving *inwards* !


Cheers, Graham

"Pooh Bear"


Phil Allison wrote:


The Pooh Bot spews more irrelevant garbage.

The Pooh Bot is pre-programmed to obfuscate the issue by quoting out of
context tech issues of its choice.





............. Phil

"Pooh Bear"

Funnily enough, in comparison, good manners cost nothing and may also
bring out
the best in your respondent too.



** That is really ***red hot** coming from a malicious, posturing fake
like Pooh face.




............. Phil

Kendall wrote:
"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote in message
...

Being a badd player,

Thats got to be one of the better "apropos" typos I've ever seen.
Taken a couple of different ways, its pretty funny.....

By the way, which is "better", bad, or badd? And is that in a "good"
kind of bad, or a badd kind of good? Er, never mind....

And, now that I think about it even more deeply, I guess I should ask
if he's bragging or apologizing?


Actually, the two consonants was correct, but they were meant to be "s" .
Dangers of posting soon after waking up, and without glasses !

geoff

Mike Rivers wrote:
In article
-nospam writes:

I think it is polarity. Absolute phase (as opposed to
relative).

Phase is always relative. Polarity can be absolute.

How about "in phase with it's polarity" ?

;-)

geoff

** People's names ***ARE*** relevant and **MUST** be left in
sight.

Only a pig ignorant arse would delete them.

And one is.



Does he deliberately snip them just to annoy folk ?

He-he, I did.

geoff

Pooh Bear wrote:

So, I guess the initial 'pluck' should produce a positive going
signal ?

If the intial pluck pushes the bass (a.k.a. "badd") driver cone outward,
yes. If inward, tehn negativo.


Oh, and just in passing regarding polarity, I see that JBL persist (
at least in some models ) in their unique convention that positive
volts on the red terminal results in the cone moving *inwards* !

That must certainly be pretty unique,m but not a convention if other of
their models do the opposite.

geoff

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 02:19:40 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:

I should however have written *polarity* rather than phase to be totally
technically accurate.

Thank you, thank you.

How pathetic is it to be worried about this, but, hey, I'm
past my sell-by date.

Phase is a measure of relative time and polarity is ....
well, it's something else.

So there. Now finish your homework or I'll ..

Chris Hornbeck

"Phil Allison" wrote in
:

** ** **
** ****** ****
**
** ****
******
**
**
**
**
**
**

You really like those little stars, don't you?

/Jonas

In article writes:
^
|
|
|
Note the name quoted for all to see.
If you want it to read ** Phil Allison ** (in lights) you'll
need to configure your news reader differently to include your
name rather than your pseudonym.


** Soundcraft desks ( among others) have used pseudo balanced outputs for
20 years or more.

Of which 20 year old Soundcraft desk do you speak? I have a 600 which
is getting on toward that age which has cross-coupled differential
outputs. There's signal on both pin 2 and pin 3 referenced to pin 1.
Further, if you connect either signal pin to pin 1 (to make an
unbalanced, single ended output) the output voltage doubles - there is
no loss of level or headroom.

You may consider those "pseudo balanced" however we were talking about
a different output topology, one with no signal on one of pins 2 or 3,
ever. This is what's considered "impedance balanced."

I figured you could remember what you wrote a day before, so I didn't
quote your old message completely to remind you that you said
"Impedance balanced" and not "Pseudo balanced." Let's not get off
track here.

** Whether pin 2 carries the signal or not needs to be determined by
carrying out a test, inspection of relevant labelling or inspection of the
unit's manual - not by guess work or squawking.

Or you could just hook it up and try it. But I suppose that could be
construed as a test.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Oh, and just in passing regarding polarity, I see that JBL persist ( at least
in some models ) in their unique convention that positive volts on the red
terminal results in the cone moving *inwards* !

I remember a Shure PA mixer that had a button to invert the polarity
of the output. The manual suggested this as a method of reducing
acoustic feedback. I suppose that in theory it might help, or not. In
practice it didn't.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Mike,

Got a Mackie VLZ series mixer? All but the main outputs and inserts are
labeled "Balanced/Unbalanced" and have signal only between the tip and
sleeve of the TRS jacks.

My 1202 is pre-VLZ (I love it anyway). But that's beside the point because
we were (I was, anyway) talking about XLR outputs.

What you don't get is the extra drive capability resulting from the "low"
side of the line being driven

Agreed.

I want to be sure that the right information is there for those who can
sort through the BS.

And I salute you for that, sir.

--Ethan

Pill,

It is the height of ignorance to contradict folk who know far more than
you do.

Not even in your wildest dreams!

--Ethan

In article "Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com writes:

My 1202 is pre-VLZ (I love it anyway). But that's beside the point because
we were (I was, anyway) talking about XLR outputs.

Pin 3 of the XLR on a Mackie compact mixer (even the original models)
is fed from pin 2 through an inverter. Simple, but effective.

These days people talk about "Pin 2" and "Pin 3" even when there are
no pins since TRS jacks are so common, and the tip=2 convention is
pretty standard.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article "Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com writes:

signal polarity regarding analogue tape machines

Absolute polarity on a multi-track recorder matters only if some tracks are
different than others! Or maybe if you sync up two different model decks to
get more tracks, and one is reversed from the other, and you have microphone
bleed across tracks on different decks ... you get the idea.

SMPTE set the standard for this. It's that a north-to-south-pole
transistion across the head gap in the direction of normal tape
movement produces a positive-going output.

There are plenty of places in the signal path to screw this up,
starting with the wiring of the input connector on the recording
machine, through the electronics, the head wiring, and the path
through playback to the output connector. Most machines retain
polarity from record input to playback output, but if you recorded a
tape on a Studer, moved that machine out and plugged an Ampex in
its place, the polarity would be inverted on playback.

Actually both machines did the right thing at the heads, but Ampex
used the "pin 3" hot convention. Here's where we get into my question
(peripherally to Phil) of "just what the heck do we meand by 'Pin X
hot' anyway?" On an Ampex, when the input pin 3 is positive with
respect to pin 2, you get a N-S polarity at the head. Move this to a
recorder that's wired "pin 2 hot" and that transition makes pin 3 go
positive with respect to pin 2, which is backwards.

MRL makes a standard tape to verify playback polarity.

As Ethan says, the difference may not be audible. But as I say, it
doesn't hurt to get it right just in case it is audible.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Mike Rivers"
Phil Allison

** Soundcraft desks ( among others) have used pseudo balanced outputs
for
20 years or more.

Of which 20 year old Soundcraft desk do you speak?


** The 400 series and all the Spirit desks among others.

The technique is far from recent.


You may consider those "pseudo balanced" however we were talking about
a different output topology, one with no signal on one of pins 2 or 3,
ever. This is what's considered "impedance balanced."


** WRONG again.

" Pseudo balanced" is not the same as "impedance balanced".




.............. Phil

"Chel van Gennip"
Phil Allison
"Ethan Winer"

And if both pins 2 and 3 have a "real" signal on them relative to pin
1, which "real" one are you talking about?

Yes, of course that was my point. What device would have signal on only
one pin of a balanced output?!


** Been living in a vacuum for the last 30 years have you ???

Signal on a balanced in/output is defined as the potential between the two
pins 2/3, signals between ground (pin 1) and any of the pins 2/3 should be
rejected by the next input stage. Normally this rejection is 50dB or
better. Therefore the fact if both pins have equal potential swing
reletive to the ground pin or one of the pins has zero potential swing
relative to the ground pin is totally irrelevant.

OP's question should be read: Is the signal on a XLR balanced output
positive if the potential 2-3 is positive or if the potential 3-2 is
positive?

I think that question has been answered.



** Certainly not by the pile of incomprehensible gobbledegook YOU just
posted above.




............. Phil

"Ethan Winer"


It is the height of ignorance to contradict folk who know far more than
you do.

Not even in your wildest dreams!

--Ethan


** ******.



.................... Phil

I hope the OP, Mr. Mondoslug1, hasn't given up hope, given all the noise
the troll in this thread has generated (remarkably, a lot of good
information can be gleaned between the ** garbage ** anyway).

Since the polarity of the bass DI has been established to not generally
be significant ("positive" depends on the pickup design and everything
else in the bass), the correct answer to his question would be to use
whatever he would have used without the ADL.

S O'Neill wrote:
Mondoslug1 wrote:

Bass player is bringing over his pre & ADL 1000 Comp sending me an XLR
out of
the ADL. I looked at the owners manual & it said Pin 3 is hot or 2 hot
depending on whether your studio is 2 or 3 hot.

My "studio" is a DIGI 001...........I want to bypass the mic pre's on
front.

What do I need to have....XLR to 1/4 inch Balanced TRS............Pin
# _ hot?



The unit appears to actually have transformers at the input and the
output. The manual states that you can use either 2 or 3 hot, but be
consistent in both input and output (which is why it appears to be
vague). So the correct polarity is determined by the preamp's output
connections, which you have not specified.

What make and model is the preamp?

S O'neil wrote:

I hope the OP, Mr. Mondoslug1, hasn't given up hope,

Nah, worked like a charm... Demari's Comp is Pin 3 Hot though...whatever the
bjork that means?

Decaf fellers.

given all the noise
the troll in this thread has generated (remarkably, a lot of good
information can be gleaned between the ** garbage ** anyway).

Since the polarity of the bass DI has been established to not generally
be significant ("positive" depends on the pickup design and everything
else in the bass), the correct answer to his question would be to use
whatever he would have used without the ADL.

S O'Neill wrote:
Mondoslug1 wrote:

Bass player is bringing over his pre & ADL 1000 Comp sending me an XLR
out of
the ADL. I looked at the owners manual & it said Pin 3 is hot or 2 hot
depending on whether your studio is 2 or 3 hot.

My "studio" is a DIGI 001...........I want to bypass the mic pre's on
front.

What do I need to have....XLR to 1/4 inch Balanced TRS............Pin
# _ hot?



The unit appears to actually have transformers at the input and the
output. The manual states that you can use either 2 or 3 hot, but be
consistent in both input and output (which is why it appears to be
vague). So the correct polarity is determined by the preamp's output
connections, which you have not specified.

What make and model is the preamp?

Phil Allison wrote:
" Pseudo balanced" is not the same as "impedance balanced".

so what's the difference, high and mighty one?

--
Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." |
"someday the industry will have throbbing frontal lobes and will be able
to write provably correct software. also, I want a pony." -- Zach Brown

"Aaron J. Grier"
Phil Allison

" Pseudo balanced" is not the same as "impedance balanced".

so what's the difference,


** The former uses active ground hum compensation while the latter simply
uses a resistor in series with the undriven pin.




........... Phil

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in message
...
It's sad that rudeness is so common these days. People say and do things
behind their keyboards and behind the steering wheel of their car that
they'd never do face to face at a party or business meeting.

You don't know Phil very well do you :-)

TonyP.

In article writes:

Phil Allison wrote:
" Pseudo balanced" is not the same as "impedance balanced".

so what's the difference, high and mighty one?

"Impedance balanced" is balanced. It's also a fairly well documented
term. "Pseudo balanced" as a description is not well defined or
documented and may not, in reality, be balanced. In the case of the
Soundcraft 600 console, it is.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article aht writes:

Nah, worked like a charm... Demari's Comp is Pin 3 Hot though...whatever the
bjork that means?

Oh, no, not THAT again! g

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

" Pseudo balanced" is not the same as "impedance balanced".

** The former uses active ground hum compensation while the latter simply
uses a resistor in series with the undriven pin.

So now the pundit has defined "Pseudo balanced"? Can you show me
another use of that term in the context that we're discussing? Or do
you feel it's sufficient to accept my made-up term and define it (or
not) yourself?

Soundcraft does indeed employ something that they call EBOS
(Electrically Balanced Output System) which is definitely
differential. According to my Minilyzer, it's also balanced, at least
to the resolution of its display. I've never actually measured the
source impedance of both outputs to determin just how balanced it
really is.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Mike Rivers wrote:

In article aht writes:


Nah, worked like a charm... Demari's Comp is Pin 3 Hot though...whatever the
bjork that means?


Oh, no, not THAT again! g



Yeah, no kidding. Run away! Run away!

Mike,

On an Ampex, when the input pin 3 is positive with respect to pin 2, you
get a N-S polarity at the head.

Interesting. Thanks for that explanation.

it doesn't hurt to get it right just in case it is audible.

I agree. For something so drop-dead simple, there sure are a lot of ways to
screw it up!

--Ethan

In article "Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com writes:


it doesn't hurt to get it right just in case it is audible.

I agree. For something so drop-dead simple, there sure are a lot of ways to
screw it up!

Well, really there's only one way to screw it up, but lots of places
where it can be done (and, if you're lucky enough, undone g).

Of course, you can't control how the listener has his speakers
wired, so as careful as you are in your recording process, there's
still one more chance. (At least with a little luck, he'll he'll have both
of his speakers wired the same even if it's backwards.)




--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Mike Rivers"
Phil Allison


" Pseudo balanced" is not the same as "impedance balanced".

** The former uses active ground hum compensation while the latter
simply
uses a resistor in series with the undriven pin.


So now the pundit has defined "Pseudo balanced"?


** Go stuff yourself - Mike.



Can you show me another use of that term in the context that we're
discussing?


** Do your own Google searches.


Or do you feel it's sufficient to accept my made-up term ...


** You never made up any terms - liar.



............ Phil

"Mike Rivers"
Phil Allison

" Pseudo balanced" is not the same as "impedance balanced".

so what's the difference, high and mighty one?

"Impedance balanced" is balanced.


** So the lying parrot keeps saying - ad nauseam.


It's also a fairly well documented term.


** Not coined by Mike Rivers.


"Pseudo balanced" as a description is not well defined or
documented and may not, in reality, be balanced.


** More parrot droppings.



.............. Phil