Does your church help the homeless without proselytizing them?
I know it runs an unwed mother center..and I'm sure there are religious based
concepts brought up. I don't see many Gov't programs without a catch for
someone either.

Does it
provide
job training and placement?

No

Does it find low-cost housing?
Yes.

Does it provide
all
the services a decent society should expecting nothing in return?

First we have to define "services"...I don't know exactly what that would be.

We helped her for the time being without any divine intervention. But that's

not how society should be functioning, catch-as-catch-can. Church is not the

answer to every problem.

Never said it was...just that for some it is a perfectly valid helping hand.the
same as AA is valid for those that it works for...if they choose to take it. I
personally would not tell anyone to turn down a church's help if they needed it
and noone else was stepping in.





John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

Jay Kadis wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on
the
street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills
and
self-control.

OK..I'm gonna make a crazy statement here.....not to enflame but to offer
another point of view. Maybe not a total solution but a viable point
nonetheless.
If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.

Does your church help the homeless without proselytizing them? Does it provide
job training and placement? Does it find low-cost housing? Does it provide all
the services a decent society should expecting nothing in return?

We helped her for the time being without any divine intervention. But that's
not how society should be functioning, catch-as-catch-can. Church is not the
answer to every problem.

-Jay


Well, no, church may not be the answer to every problem. On the other
hand, how well are corporations or the government doing on social
problems? Especcially considering the fact that corporations, and
their government enablers, are far more the cause of problems than
churches are. Various charity organizations and 'crisis centers',
etc., of whatever stripe, are merely dealing with the fallout arising
from the actions of governments and corporations.

Yes, it is true that *some* church assistance programs involve
proselytizing, but many do not even mention 'the lord' at all to the
recipients. Some folk's interperetation of whatever chosen gospel
tells them to 'save' people, but a good many read where you just have
to help folks, no evangelism needed. If you *really* want to help
folks, you can't worry about if they're willing to be 'saved' or not.
Many church based organizations understand and work under this
principle.

Some of the church based, and other non-governmental agencies do, in
fact, provide assistance for obtaining housing, loans, jobs, etc. ,
expecting far less "in return" than a corporate or government entity
would, in terms of intrusion upon your life, or surrender of dignity.

I agree that it should not be such a "catch as catch can" situation,
but that is more a matter of the policies that create the situation in
the first place. To somewhat oversimplify my position on it, we
wouldn't have to worry and argue so much about how best to deal with,
or how much to spend on these problems, if we were to figure out how
to quit spending so much money to cause these problems to begin with.
Events being as they are now, we seem to have a ways to go yet on that
score.

The new poor and veterans that we are creating in ever greater numbers
will be needing any and every source of relief and help that they can
get in getting themselves back to a state of dignity.

Let's keep them in our hearts.


JF

Jay Kadis wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

Well, it's commonplace enough. The rest of the story... she's probably an
alcoholic on the fringe of society. So does that entitle her to a life on
the
street? Life can be very hard for those people with marginal social skills
and
self-control.

OK..I'm gonna make a crazy statement here.....not to enflame but to offer
another point of view. Maybe not a total solution but a viable point
nonetheless.
If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.

Does your church help the homeless without proselytizing them? Does it provide
job training and placement? Does it find low-cost housing? Does it provide all
the services a decent society should expecting nothing in return?

We helped her for the time being without any divine intervention. But that's
not how society should be functioning, catch-as-catch-can. Church is not the
answer to every problem.

-Jay


Well, no, church may not be the answer to every problem. On the other
hand, how well are corporations or the government doing on social
problems? Especcially considering the fact that corporations, and
their government enablers, are far more the cause of problems than
churches are. Various charity organizations and 'crisis centers',
etc., of whatever stripe, are merely dealing with the fallout arising
from the actions of governments and corporations.

Yes, it is true that *some* church assistance programs involve
proselytizing, but many do not even mention 'the lord' at all to the
recipients. Some folk's interperetation of whatever chosen gospel
tells them to 'save' people, but a good many read where you just have
to help folks, no evangelism needed. If you *really* want to help
folks, you can't worry about if they're willing to be 'saved' or not.
Many church based organizations understand and work under this
principle.

Some of the church based, and other non-governmental agencies do, in
fact, provide assistance for obtaining housing, loans, jobs, etc. ,
expecting far less "in return" than a corporate or government entity
would, in terms of intrusion upon your life, or surrender of dignity.

I agree that it should not be such a "catch as catch can" situation,
but that is more a matter of the policies that create the situation in
the first place. To somewhat oversimplify my position on it, we
wouldn't have to worry and argue so much about how best to deal with,
or how much to spend on these problems, if we were to figure out how
to quit spending so much money to cause these problems to begin with.
Events being as they are now, we seem to have a ways to go yet on that
score.

The new poor and veterans that we are creating in ever greater numbers
will be needing any and every source of relief and help that they can
get in getting themselves back to a state of dignity.

Let's keep them in our hearts.


JF

wrote:


Been there done that, and it's strange but it's been over 20 years for
me but I still look at my environment for such things. rEstaurant
dumpsters that remain open are sources of sustenance, an often empty
trash receptacle with a bag liner yields a ready poncho when the heavy
rains catch one. Unsecured buildings where one can get into a dry
place.

Where you are treated as any other pest. That's probably
the most traumatic part, the descent from human to pest so
quickly. The knowledge of where you really stand and what a
thin veil separates you from it never goes away.


My environment is always yielding such information to me because I
know what I'm looking for, and a quarter of a century later my brain
still catalogues these items for future reference.

Who knows, Richard, maybe we'll be the survivors when the
crunch comes. I've come to see that my most damaging
experiences usually have a side that's pure gift.
Hyper-vigilence has other interesting aspects.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

wrote:


Been there done that, and it's strange but it's been over 20 years for
me but I still look at my environment for such things. rEstaurant
dumpsters that remain open are sources of sustenance, an often empty
trash receptacle with a bag liner yields a ready poncho when the heavy
rains catch one. Unsecured buildings where one can get into a dry
place.

Where you are treated as any other pest. That's probably
the most traumatic part, the descent from human to pest so
quickly. The knowledge of where you really stand and what a
thin veil separates you from it never goes away.


My environment is always yielding such information to me because I
know what I'm looking for, and a quarter of a century later my brain
still catalogues these items for future reference.

Who knows, Richard, maybe we'll be the survivors when the
crunch comes. I've come to see that my most damaging
experiences usually have a side that's pure gift.
Hyper-vigilence has other interesting aspects.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

"Blind Joni" wrote in message
...
I'm not saying anyone has to be like anyone else...just that in my
understanding one of the functions of local churches is to help people in
need.
Mine does. Battered women..unwed mothers with no families..etc. Just one
part
of a big puzzle that can use all the help it can get.

I'd somewhat disagree that it's not really the local church that does the
work, it's the people that make up the church. The church just facilitates
the functions by having people of like minds meet and have the use of the
building and such. Now I admit that, in my case, most of the effort evolved
from the hard work of Reverend Balcomb (who performed the marriages of all
the local Normans, except my parents - and let me play the church organ
almost whenever I wanted to). But again, it wasn't the mandate of the
church because prior to Rev. Balcomb, the church never participated in such
things. In fact, it mostly looked down on unwed mothers, etc. It took a
new leader of the church to actually change things around from being a hell
and damnation type of church with virtually no love for anyone, to one of a
high degree of civic minded duty. And in a small community, it took about
10 years before people became used to the idea of a church doing something
good for the community in the first place.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Blind Joni" wrote in message
...
I'm not saying anyone has to be like anyone else...just that in my
understanding one of the functions of local churches is to help people in
need.
Mine does. Battered women..unwed mothers with no families..etc. Just one
part
of a big puzzle that can use all the help it can get.

I'd somewhat disagree that it's not really the local church that does the
work, it's the people that make up the church. The church just facilitates
the functions by having people of like minds meet and have the use of the
building and such. Now I admit that, in my case, most of the effort evolved
from the hard work of Reverend Balcomb (who performed the marriages of all
the local Normans, except my parents - and let me play the church organ
almost whenever I wanted to). But again, it wasn't the mandate of the
church because prior to Rev. Balcomb, the church never participated in such
things. In fact, it mostly looked down on unwed mothers, etc. It took a
new leader of the church to actually change things around from being a hell
and damnation type of church with virtually no love for anyone, to one of a
high degree of civic minded duty. And in a small community, it took about
10 years before people became used to the idea of a church doing something
good for the community in the first place.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

Blind Joni wrote:

If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.


That's very true. I too have often felt that if people were a bit more like
me
things would be better. Many disagree


I'm not saying anyone has to be like anyone else...just that in my
understanding one of the functions of local churches is to help people in need.
Mine does. Battered women..unwed mothers with no families..etc. Just one part
of a big puzzle that can use all the help it can get.


Including state, perhaps, if that keeps her off your lawn.

Blind Joni wrote:

If this women were a member of a church she would have some sort of support
system. I always wonder why so many don't recognize this.


That's very true. I too have often felt that if people were a bit more like
me
things would be better. Many disagree


I'm not saying anyone has to be like anyone else...just that in my
understanding one of the functions of local churches is to help people in need.
Mine does. Battered women..unwed mothers with no families..etc. Just one part
of a big puzzle that can use all the help it can get.


Including state, perhaps, if that keeps her off your lawn.

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

[snip]


Never said it was...just that for some it is a perfectly valid helping
hand.the
same as AA is valid for those that it works for...if they choose to take it.
I
personally would not tell anyone to turn down a church's help if they needed
it
and noone else was stepping in.

I don't mean to criticize your church, I'm sure you do help people. I just
resent the idea that the government has no responsibility for human services and
it's all up to the religious community or other volunteers to provide this
instead. And many people don't take religion seriously and therefore are not
likely to seek out help from church-based organizations.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

[snip]


Never said it was...just that for some it is a perfectly valid helping
hand.the
same as AA is valid for those that it works for...if they choose to take it.
I
personally would not tell anyone to turn down a church's help if they needed
it
and noone else was stepping in.

I don't mean to criticize your church, I'm sure you do help people. I just
resent the idea that the government has no responsibility for human services and
it's all up to the religious community or other volunteers to provide this
instead. And many people don't take religion seriously and therefore are not
likely to seek out help from church-based organizations.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

I don't mean to criticize your church, I'm sure you do help people. I just
resent the idea that the government has no responsibility for human services
and
it's all up to the religious community or other volunteers to provide this
instead. And many people don't take religion seriously and therefore are not

likely to seek out help from church-based organizations.

-Jay

I knew that's what you meant. I too get frustrated by gov'ts seemingly out of
focus focus most of the time. This is sadly true of any gov't setup..local or
national. The problem is getting most to agree on what should be done. It's not
like we're..as a nation.. spending nothing on human services.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

I don't mean to criticize your church, I'm sure you do help people. I just
resent the idea that the government has no responsibility for human services
and
it's all up to the religious community or other volunteers to provide this
instead. And many people don't take religion seriously and therefore are not

likely to seek out help from church-based organizations.

-Jay

I knew that's what you meant. I too get frustrated by gov'ts seemingly out of
focus focus most of the time. This is sadly true of any gov't setup..local or
national. The problem is getting most to agree on what should be done. It's not
like we're..as a nation.. spending nothing on human services.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

But again, it wasn't the mandate of the
church because prior to Rev. Balcomb, the church never participated in such
things.

Not so here.

And in a small community, it took about
10 years before people became used to the idea of a church doing something
good for the community in the first place.

This is probably the case in many communities. My church is growing at about
20%/year.



John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

But again, it wasn't the mandate of the
church because prior to Rev. Balcomb, the church never participated in such
things.

Not so here.

And in a small community, it took about
10 years before people became used to the idea of a church doing something
good for the community in the first place.

This is probably the case in many communities. My church is growing at about
20%/year.



John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

In article ,
Jay Kadis wrote:

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

[snip]


Never said it was...just that for some it is a perfectly valid helping
hand.the
same as AA is valid for those that it works for...if they choose to take
it.
I
personally would not tell anyone to turn down a church's help if they
needed
it
and noone else was stepping in.

I don't mean to criticize your church, I'm sure you do help people. I just
resent the idea that the government has no responsibility for human services
and
it's all up to the religious community or other volunteers to provide this
instead. And many people don't take religion seriously and therefore are not
likely to seek out help from church-based organizations.

-Jay


and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

In article ,
Jay Kadis wrote:

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

[snip]


Never said it was...just that for some it is a perfectly valid helping
hand.the
same as AA is valid for those that it works for...if they choose to take
it.
I
personally would not tell anyone to turn down a church's help if they
needed
it
and noone else was stepping in.

I don't mean to criticize your church, I'm sure you do help people. I just
resent the idea that the government has no responsibility for human services
and
it's all up to the religious community or other volunteers to provide this
instead. And many people don't take religion seriously and therefore are not
likely to seek out help from church-based organizations.

-Jay


and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for things? At
least the church help is paid for by people who give the money voluntarily..of
course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
damnation..I'm sure.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for things? At
least the church help is paid for by people who give the money voluntarily..of
course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
damnation..I'm sure.


John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for things?
At
least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
voluntarily..of
course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
damnation..I'm sure.

except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
marriage and other"worthy" causes
and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
addressed
George

In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:

and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for things?
At
least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
voluntarily..of
course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
damnation..I'm sure.

except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
marriage and other"worthy" causes
and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
addressed
George

George wrote:
In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:


and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for things?
At
least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
voluntarily..of
course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
damnation..I'm sure.


except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
marriage and other"worthy" causes
and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
addressed
George

Don't forget church's tax-exempt status, an indirect subsidy from all us taxpayers.

George wrote:
In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:


and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for things?
At
least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
voluntarily..of
course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
damnation..I'm sure.


except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
marriage and other"worthy" causes
and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
addressed
George

Don't forget church's tax-exempt status, an indirect subsidy from all us taxpayers.

In article , S O'Neill
wrote:

George wrote:
In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:


and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for
things?
At
least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
voluntarily..of
course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
damnation..I'm sure.


except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
marriage and other"worthy" causes
and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
addressed
George

Don't forget church's tax-exempt status, an indirect subsidy from all us
taxpayers.


And as they get further into politics, this has to change.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

In article , S O'Neill
wrote:

George wrote:
In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:


and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for
things?
At
least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
voluntarily..of
course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
damnation..I'm sure.


except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
marriage and other"worthy" causes
and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
addressed
George

Don't forget church's tax-exempt status, an indirect subsidy from all us
taxpayers.


And as they get further into politics, this has to change.

-Jay
--
x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x
x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x

"Jay Kadis" wrote in message
...
In article , S O'Neill

wrote:

George wrote:
In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:


and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for
things?
At
least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
voluntarily..of
course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
damnation..I'm sure.


except when voluntairly you mean
holding out eternal salvation that is subtly tied to what you put in the
collection plate
or the rolex wearing mercedes driving preacher prying food money from
wheelchair bound and crippled destitue people
people (mistakenly) feel they can buy forgivness(except from the catholic
church that makes that a policy)
there will always be a lineof "faithful" ready to give money they can't
afford to a church that is doing "god's work", as if God couldn't do what
ever , anyway
BTW John, if you don't like people ranting against churchs , perhaps you
could stop injecting them into every conversation.
george


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.688 / Virus Database: 449 - Release Date: 5/18/2004

"Jay Kadis" wrote in message
...
In article , S O'Neill

wrote:

George wrote:
In article ,
(Blind Joni) wrote:


and many will not accept the strings attached when religion offers
George

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for
things?
At
least the church help is paid for by people who give the money
voluntarily..of
course you will think that they are being threatened with eternal
damnation..I'm sure.


except when voluntairly you mean
holding out eternal salvation that is subtly tied to what you put in the
collection plate
or the rolex wearing mercedes driving preacher prying food money from
wheelchair bound and crippled destitue people
people (mistakenly) feel they can buy forgivness(except from the catholic
church that makes that a policy)
there will always be a lineof "faithful" ready to give money they can't
afford to a church that is doing "god's work", as if God couldn't do what
ever , anyway
BTW John, if you don't like people ranting against churchs , perhaps you
could stop injecting them into every conversation.
george


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.688 / Virus Database: 449 - Release Date: 5/18/2004

Jay Kadis wrote:

In article , S O'Neill
wrote:

George wrote:

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for
things? At least the church help is paid for by people who give the
money voluntarily...of course you will think that they are being
threatened with eternal damnation..I'm sure.


except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
marriage and other"worthy" causes
and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that
I have addressed


Don't forget church's tax-exempt status, an indirect subsidy from
all us taxpayers.


And as they get further into politics, this has to change.


Good luck.

(Very) roughly quoting Susan Jacoby: "Religion is (and has for a long time) been quite well protected from government in this country. The increasing problem we face is protecting government from religion."

Jay Kadis wrote:

In article , S O'Neill
wrote:

George wrote:

Oh, and there are no "strings" attached to the government paying for
things? At least the church help is paid for by people who give the
money voluntarily...of course you will think that they are being
threatened with eternal damnation..I'm sure.


except when voluntairly you mean my tax dollars given to christian
churches by GW's "faith based initives" to fight the evils of gay
marriage and other"worthy" causes
and you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that
I have addressed


Don't forget church's tax-exempt status, an indirect subsidy from
all us taxpayers.


And as they get further into politics, this has to change.


Good luck.

(Very) roughly quoting Susan Jacoby: "Religion is (and has for a long time) been quite well protected from government in this country. The increasing problem we face is protecting government from religion."

OK, a correction and clarification to my earlier post .

I had mentioned "corporations and the government". In reviewing the
roster of the current administration, from the VP, to the national
security advisor, to the secretary of defense, ad infinitum, along
with those informing them regarding policy, I realize now that I had
inadvertently ventured into a "distinction without a difference" zone.
The tail most certainly excercises firm control over the dog now, far
beyond mere wagging.

As to my last point in the post, i would assure you that in no way am
I advocationg the cutting of funds to various releif and recovery
programs, libertarian inclined as i am. It was meant to experess the
"ounce of prevention" sentiment.


Looking at it from an actuarial standpoint, it would be quite
difficult to calculate the total actual costs that result from a
single individual that is lost to society. Let's do our best to
account for their loss of contribution, before we even get to what
they 'cost' for upkeep or long rehabilitation.

First of all, is the loss of productivity, which results in higher
prices. Loss of purchasing power, due to lack of funds, which results
in lower revenue for companies, which further contributes to higher
prices. The loss of income which would otherwise provide them with the
means to help out a family member, or another in their communty who,
now, has to turn towards some government agency, which results in
higher taxes. I could write for 5 pages on this. For those familiar
with fractal geometry, that visualization would be in order here.

Then, to the social costs, again, in terms of lost contribution. Some
of the many good mayors, teachers, coaches, counselors,
referees,judges, etc., that we _might_ have had, are either lying in a
grave , or taking our tax or contribution dollars for purpose of mere
upkeep. Quite a contribution to society, eh?

Now then, take the various costs that this *one* person might incur
upon society, as for "lost contribution" considerations alone.
Consider next that the greater number of these casualties survive, and
require lifelong care in some cases, which will require resources from
every corner whichfrom they might be obtained. This is only a partial
enumeration of all the actuarial considerations involving ONE person!

Multiply all that by many tens of thousands, and you will see that we
are to be reaping the "dividends" of our $87 billion "investment", for
many years to come.


JF

OK, a correction and clarification to my earlier post .

I had mentioned "corporations and the government". In reviewing the
roster of the current administration, from the VP, to the national
security advisor, to the secretary of defense, ad infinitum, along
with those informing them regarding policy, I realize now that I had
inadvertently ventured into a "distinction without a difference" zone.
The tail most certainly excercises firm control over the dog now, far
beyond mere wagging.

As to my last point in the post, i would assure you that in no way am
I advocationg the cutting of funds to various releif and recovery
programs, libertarian inclined as i am. It was meant to experess the
"ounce of prevention" sentiment.


Looking at it from an actuarial standpoint, it would be quite
difficult to calculate the total actual costs that result from a
single individual that is lost to society. Let's do our best to
account for their loss of contribution, before we even get to what
they 'cost' for upkeep or long rehabilitation.

First of all, is the loss of productivity, which results in higher
prices. Loss of purchasing power, due to lack of funds, which results
in lower revenue for companies, which further contributes to higher
prices. The loss of income which would otherwise provide them with the
means to help out a family member, or another in their communty who,
now, has to turn towards some government agency, which results in
higher taxes. I could write for 5 pages on this. For those familiar
with fractal geometry, that visualization would be in order here.

Then, to the social costs, again, in terms of lost contribution. Some
of the many good mayors, teachers, coaches, counselors,
referees,judges, etc., that we _might_ have had, are either lying in a
grave , or taking our tax or contribution dollars for purpose of mere
upkeep. Quite a contribution to society, eh?

Now then, take the various costs that this *one* person might incur
upon society, as for "lost contribution" considerations alone.
Consider next that the greater number of these casualties survive, and
require lifelong care in some cases, which will require resources from
every corner whichfrom they might be obtained. This is only a partial
enumeration of all the actuarial considerations involving ONE person!

Multiply all that by many tens of thousands, and you will see that we
are to be reaping the "dividends" of our $87 billion "investment", for
many years to come.


JF

Blind Joni wrote:

Most people in this country need to learn "there but by the grace of
insert your favorite deity go I"


If they all believed in God's grace they would probably also know that other's
who believe this would be supportive when needed.
The saying is not just a helpless quote but also an empowering one...if allowed
to be.


It's not about grace, its about recognizing one's arrogance toward
another human being, practicing humility and developing empathy. Many in
America view homeless as being somehow their own fault, as if they would
only blank, they could be more like themselves.

Many of the homeless are too far gone to ever be integrated into
mainstream society, so there's little to be done except address basic
needs and attempt to stem their substance abuse.

Blind Joni wrote:

Most people in this country need to learn "there but by the grace of
insert your favorite deity go I"


If they all believed in God's grace they would probably also know that other's
who believe this would be supportive when needed.
The saying is not just a helpless quote but also an empowering one...if allowed
to be.


It's not about grace, its about recognizing one's arrogance toward
another human being, practicing humility and developing empathy. Many in
America view homeless as being somehow their own fault, as if they would
only blank, they could be more like themselves.

Many of the homeless are too far gone to ever be integrated into
mainstream society, so there's little to be done except address basic
needs and attempt to stem their substance abuse.

you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
addressed

I agree..I was speaking of my own church in particular.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

you were the one who brought up the whole church thing that I have
addressed

I agree..I was speaking of my own church in particular.

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

BTW John, if you don't like people ranting against churchs , perhaps you
could stop injecting them into every conversation.
george

We were talking about organizations that help people in need..sound in context
to me.
I wasn't bashing any alternative..just offering another. And if we didn't
discuss things someone didn't like.................

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

BTW John, if you don't like people ranting against churchs , perhaps you
could stop injecting them into every conversation.
george

We were talking about organizations that help people in need..sound in context
to me.
I wasn't bashing any alternative..just offering another. And if we didn't
discuss things someone didn't like.................

John A. Chiara
SOS Recording Studio
Live Sound Inc.
Albany, NY
www.sosrecording.net
518-449-1637

"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
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Reprinted From Capitol Hill Blue
BUSH LEAGUES
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What is "Capitol Hill Blue"?

"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
...


Reprinted From Capitol Hill Blue
BUSH LEAGUES
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What is "Capitol Hill Blue"?

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/


--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Ricky W. Hunt" wrote in message
news:2Ltwc.49131$3x.12321@attbi_s54...
"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
...


Reprinted From Capitol Hill Blue
BUSH LEAGUES
.

What is "Capitol Hill Blue"?