[William Sommerwerck]

As some of you know, I quit Stereophile after a Totally Weird experience
with interconnects left me wondering whether I was same, and finally
realizing that my reviewing was not sufficiently reliable or consistent to
be published for money.

I still remain "open-minded" (or is it "empty-headed"?) on the subject of
whether interconnects can have a "sound" of their own. I don't rule it out
as a possibility, and I certainly wouldn't put cheap cables in an expensive
system.

Several years ago, Audiovox brought out some bright-blue semi-premium cables
under their AR label. They were downright inexpensive, verging on the cheap
(as such products go), but a Stereophile reviewer gave them a semi-rave,
saying you had to pay a lot more to get significantly better sound. (Whether
his evaluation was "correct" is debatable, but it's clear his opinion wasn't
influenced by the cables' low, low price.)

Audiovox recently introduced the "step-up" line, called the "Master Series".
(Nicht sein von Deutschland.) I've been replacing my cables with them, and
have no reason to complain.

What makes these "Master" cables interesting is that they pay attention to
the details -- the features you'd think a high-quality cable ought to
have -- without going totally overboard (eg, weird stranding, bias
batteries, etc). And they're cheap -- a 3' pair is only $38 from buy.com,
and buy.com pays the shipping. (Well... the shipping is hidden in the price.
But buy.com has one of the lowest base prices of anyone selling these
cables.)

"What are those wonderful features?", you ask. In no particular order...

gold-plated solid-metal machined plugs with a screw-down locking sleeve
Teflon-coated low-oxygen silver-plated conductors
two-conductor transmission (ie, the shield doesn't carry the signal)
separate shield, grounded at "input" end, with a ferrite RFI/EMI choke at
same end

They come in huge plastic screw-together boxes that look like a dinosaur
egg.

These are cables I feel even Arny could put in his home system without
embarrassment.

I ordered another four pairs this morning. They're hard to get, because they
sell out within a few days of buy.com getting them, then it takes at least a
month for a restock. (My buy.com account listing shows more than seven weeks
between my last two orders for 3' cables, both of which were placed on the
day they came back "in stock".)

Rush right out in a buying frenzy!

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:11:40 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I still remain "open-minded" (or is it "empty-headed"?) on the subject of
whether interconnects can have a "sound" of their own. I don't rule it out
as a possibility, and I certainly wouldn't put cheap cables in an expensive
system.

So you aren't open-minded at all. You waste money on magic cables for
the odd few inches of signal path which are under your control. Don't
try to wriggle out of it!

[William Sommerwerck]

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:11:40 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I still remain "open-minded" (or is it "empty-headed"?) on the subject of
whether interconnects can have a "sound" of their own. I don't rule it
out
as a possibility, and I certainly wouldn't put cheap cables in an
expensive
system.

So you aren't open-minded at all. You waste money on magic cables for
the odd few inches of signal path which are under your control. Don't
try to wriggle out of it!

There are reasons for using a "better" ahem product other than sound
quality. I have expensive, and I have no desire to connect it with 29-cent
cables from a Chinese factory.

My point with regard to the AR cables is that, whether or not they really
"sound better", the design is good -- machined connectors, low-loss
dielectrics, separate ground shield, RF filtering; etc. I like well-made
stuff, and this product delivers the "well-made" without getting crazy about
it.

Fifty years ago I bought a single 6' Barker cable (not a stereo pair). It
cost something like $1.80. Consider inflation and compare that with the
price of a pair of the ARs. Granted, it's made in China, but it's of much
higher quality, and taking inflation/disposable income into account, it's
actually cheaper.

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:44:21 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

There are reasons for using a "better" ahem product other than sound
quality. I have expensive, and I have no desire to connect it with 29-cent
cables from a Chinese factory.

Don't you ever ask yourself "why not"? I only press this point
because you opened this thread with: "I still remain
"open-minded"....". Not quite sure why you chose to put it inside
quote marks though. Does "open-minded" not mean simply ... er...
"open-minded"? :-)

You don't care about (or need to in a domestic environment) ultimate
ruggedness or noise-rejection, else you'd be using professional gear
with balanced connections. Do you buy gold-plated paper-clips?

[William Sommerwerck]

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:44:21 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

There are reasons for using a "better" ahem product other than
sound quality. I have expensive equipment, and I have no desire to
connect it with 29-cent cables from a Chinese factory.

Don't you ever ask yourself "why not"?

Once in a very great while. People connected their Marantz and McIntosh
equipment for decades with relatively cheap cables and no one thought much
of it until Mister Robert Fulton stuck his nose in. *

The reason I remain "open-minded" (no, I'm not sure what I mean by the
quotation marks) is that I've heard gross differences among cables that were
well above the perceptual threshold corresponding to imagination.


You don't care about (or need to in a domestic environment) ultimate
ruggedness or noise-rejection, else you'd be using professional gear
with balanced connections.

Actually, my Parasound C2 controller and A21 power amps, and the Apogee DAX
3 electronic crossover, are connected with balanced cables. In a six-channel
system, there's no practical way to wire up the equipment with long
unbalanced lines.

Home listeners don't need cables that can stand being walked on or run over
by a hand truck with a load of equipment, but cables are sometimes abused
(accidentally or by being pused and yanked), so it's nice to have well-made
ones. I assure you, once you've used a cable with a solid-metal machined
plug, you're not likely to go back to "the other kind". I also like the
locking shell.


Do you buy gold-plated paper-clips?

Come on! There's no comparison. Gold hardly oxidizes at all, and makes a
better connection.


* When I worked for Barclay Recording & Electronics, Mr. Fulton came by to
set up some speakers for a demo. They were in a room with our best
equipment. The speakers, quite frankly, didn't sound very good. (This room
had its quirks, and we had to be careful about how the speakers were
positioned.) I was going to bluntly say so, but decided to be more
elliptical. "Mr. Fulton, do you feel these speakers sound as good as you
would like them to sound?" "Yeah, I think so." At that point I lost whatever
little respect remained for Mr. Fulton.

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:44:21 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

There are reasons for using a "better" ahem product other than
sound quality. I have expensive equipment, and I have no desire to
connect it with 29-cent cables from a Chinese factory.

Don't you ever ask yourself "why not"?

Once in a very great while. People connected their Marantz and McIntosh
equipment for decades with relatively cheap cables and no one thought much
of it until Mister Robert Fulton stuck his nose in. *

Part of the problem is that the "relatively cheap cables" in that era
were actually well-made with good quality connectors and cable.

People started hearing differences between cables when manufacturers started
providing godawful vinyl cables with molded ends and outrageously high shunt
capacitance.

I believe that the issue is not that super-expensive cables will improve your
sound, but that super-crappy cables might degrade it. And sadly because of
the polarization of the market, there are very few cables available in the
range in-between now unless you go to a pro audio dealer or make your own.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:32:15 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

Home listeners don't need cables that can stand being walked on or run over
by a hand truck with a load of equipment, but cables are sometimes abused
(accidentally or by being pused and yanked), so it's nice to have well-made
ones. I assure you, once you've used a cable with a solid-metal machined
plug, you're not likely to go back to "the other kind". I also like the
locking shell.

Oh, I've used plugs that were too big and too heavy for the sockets.
Sometimes they broke them.

[Arny Krueger]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in
message

What makes these "Master" cables interesting is that they
pay attention to the details -- the features you'd think
a high-quality cable ought to
have -- without going totally overboard (eg, weird
stranding, bias batteries, etc). And they're cheap -- a
3' pair is only $38 from buy.com, and buy.com pays the
shipping.

$38 for a pair of one meter unbalanced cables strikes me as a total rip-off.

gold-plated solid-metal machined plugs with a screw-down
locking sleeve Teflon-coated low-oxygen silver-plated
conductors
two-conductor transmission (ie, the shield doesn't carry
the signal) separate shield, grounded at "input" end,
with a ferrite RFI/EMI choke at same end

All of which can be eliminated or dramatically cheapened with zero effect in
almost every application.

They come in huge plastic screw-together boxes that look
like a dinosaur egg.

Sort of like Leggs stockings? Oh, how 60s!

These are cables I feel even Arny could put in his home
system without embarrassment.

Most of the cables in Arny's system are balanced with XLRs on both ends.
Unbalanced cables with RCAs would not only be an embarassment, they simply
wouldn't work!

Checking agin to make sure this is rec.audio.pro and not rec.audio.opinon

[Richard Crowley]

"Arny Krueger" wrote ...
Checking agin to make sure this is rec.audio.pro and not
rec.audio.opinon

Can we just re-patch the whole thread over there? :-)

[William Sommerwerck]

By the way, I goofed. The cables are actually "only" $32 a pair.

I would love to hear Arny's home system, though that seems highly unlikely
to ever come to pass. He's certainly welcome to stop by and audition mine
(seriously), though I know he won't like it, because it has "expensive" (by
his standard) components, and his distaste for such products will
necessarily override any objectivity.

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:08:15 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I would love to hear Arny's home system, though that seems highly unlikely
to ever come to pass. He's certainly welcome to stop by and audition mine
(seriously), though I know he won't like it, because it has "expensive" (by
his standard) components, and his distaste for such products will
necessarily override any objectivity.

It works both ways. A good friend of mine had a nice system with some
competent amp and a pair of Spendor BC1 speakers. Then he got it into
his head that B & O was the bees knees and installed (at great
expense) one of those vertical record decks and a pair of small
wall-mounted speakers. Both systems are set up in the same room. He's
convinced himself the B & O fashion object sounds better.

[William Sommerwerck]

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:08:15 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I would love to hear Arny's home system, though that seems highly
unlikely
to ever come to pass. He's certainly welcome to stop by and audition mine
(seriously), though I know he won't like it, because it has "expensive"
(by
his standard) components, and his distaste for such products will
necessarily override any objectivity.

It works both ways. A good friend of mine had a nice system with some
competent amp and a pair of Spendor BC1 speakers. Then he got it into
his head that B & O was the bees knees and installed (at great
expense) one of those vertical record decks and a pair of small
wall-mounted speakers. Both systems are set up in the same room. He's
convinced himself the B & O fashion object sounds better.

That's unfortunate. You don't need to spend a huge amount of money to get
really good sound -- you just have to be a critical listener.

I've generally felt B&O products are overpriced. (Their new self-adjusting
speakers are supposed to be very good, but they're not the sort of product
I'd own.)

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:37:18 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

That's unfortunate. You don't need to spend a huge amount of money to get
really good sound -- you just have to be a critical listener.

I've generally felt B&O products are overpriced. (Their new self-adjusting
speakers are supposed to be very good, but they're not the sort of product
I'd own.)

At least the B&O just has the necessary cables, he hasn't fallen for
the "interconnect" scam.

[AJ]

In article ,
says...
"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:08:15 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I would love to hear Arny's home system, though that seems highly
unlikely
to ever come to pass. He's certainly welcome to stop by and audition mine
(seriously), though I know he won't like it, because it has "expensive"
(by
his standard) components, and his distaste for such products will
necessarily override any objectivity.

It works both ways. A good friend of mine had a nice system with some
competent amp and a pair of Spendor BC1 speakers. Then he got it into
his head that B & O was the bees knees and installed (at great
expense) one of those vertical record decks and a pair of small
wall-mounted speakers. Both systems are set up in the same room. He's
convinced himself the B & O fashion object sounds better.

That's unfortunate. You don't need to spend a huge amount of money to get
really good sound -- you just have to be a critical listener.

I've generally felt B&O products are overpriced. (Their new self-adjusting
speakers are supposed to be very good, but they're not the sort of product
I'd own.)



There was a survey recently that found musicians of all genres including
some well know symphony conductors, have mediocre systems by audiophile
standards, but are completely satisfied with them. The reason boils down
to they listen to the music, not cables and specs. ;-)

[Scott Dorsey]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

I've generally felt B&O products are overpriced. (Their new self-adjusting
speakers are supposed to be very good, but they're not the sort of product
I'd own.)

Much as I have disliked B&O products, I have to give them credit for actually
putting money into actual research, not just into product development. They
are probably the only home stereo companies out there that is funding any
actual research in the audio community, and that's a good thing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[John Connors]

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 02:35:43 +0100, Laurence Payne wrote:

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:08:15 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

I would love to hear Arny's home system, though that seems highly unlikely
to ever come to pass. He's certainly welcome to stop by and audition mine
(seriously), though I know he won't like it, because it has "expensive" (by
his standard) components, and his distaste for such products will
necessarily override any objectivity.

It works both ways. A good friend of mine had a nice system with some
competent amp and a pair of Spendor BC1 speakers. Then he got it into
his head that B & O was the bees knees and installed (at great
expense) one of those vertical record decks and a pair of small
wall-mounted speakers. Both systems are set up in the same room. He's
convinced himself the B & O fashion object sounds better.

You haven't lived till you've worked in a high end audio shop like I did
back in the 70's early 80's while in school.

Lot's of fun watching the customers "out snob" each other.

[Steven Sullivan]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
As some of you know, I quit Stereophile after a Totally Weird experience
with interconnects left me wondering whether I was same, and finally
realizing that my reviewing was not sufficiently reliable or consistent to
be published for money.

what was this experience? An inadvertant 'phantom switch' experiment (you thought you'd
changed something, but it turned out you hadn't, even though you 'heard' a substantial
difference?)




--
-S
A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence. -- David Hume, "On Miracles"
(1748)