[H. Khalil]

Hi,

I am recording classical guitar using a Schoeps CMC641 through the
Metric Halo ULN2 and am pleased with the result, except that I
sometimes would have liked the sound to be a tad softer and warmer. I
remember to have read that a ribbon mic might be the way to go, and
now I would like to try one.

Which particular ribbon mic(s) would you recommend for classical
guitar? Considering Beyerdynamic in particular, which of the three
models M130, M160 and M260 would be more suitable for the instrument?

Thanks!

[Ethan Winer]

I sometimes would have liked the sound to be a tad softer and warmer.

Assuming you have an EQ, that would do the same thing for free.

--Ethan

[hank alrich]

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote:

I sometimes would have liked the sound to be a tad softer and warmer.

Assuming you have an EQ, that would do the same thing for free.

--Ethan

I disagree with the concept that mere EQ really offers the difference
between a CMC641 and an M160.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Mike Rivers]

hank alrich wrote:

I disagree with the concept that mere EQ really offers the difference
between a CMC641 and an M160.

So do I, but he can try playing with EQ on the recording that he made
with the Schoeps mic to see if he gets what he's after. He can also try
putting the mic in a different position, recording in a different room,
using different strings, filing his nails differently . . .

If H. said he didn't like his recording, I might suggest a different
mics, but since he writes that he's pleased with it, he has a good sound
to work with. Without knowing what his present recording sounds like and
what he's after, I'd be hesitant to recommend a specific mic,
particularly a Beyer, which can be a bit tricky to work with. Maybe a
Royer, or an AEA. But like Ethan says, EQ is almost certainly available,
and it can always be undone.



--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[H. Khalil]

On 20 Jul., 00:01, Mike Rivers wrote:

he can try playing with EQ on the recording that he made
with the Schoeps mic to see if he gets what he's after. He can also try
putting the mic in a different position, recording in a different room,
using different strings, filing his nails differently

I tried all these and also found the optimal setting for me. But what
I am referring to is a certain quality of the guitar, a slight over-
brightness and harshness (typical of a new spruce top classical that
still did not fully open up, which usually takes several years), and I
thought a ribbon could smoothen it a bit. (It's a great guitar
though.)

I'd be hesitant to recommend a specific mic,
particularly a Beyer, which can be a bit tricky to work with.

Why is a Beyer particularly tricky to work with?

(I thought Beyer because they are quite easy to get in Germany where I
live.)

Thanks!

[Nick Brown]

H. Khalil wrote:
On 20 Jul., 00:01, Mike Rivers wrote:

he can try playing with EQ on the recording that he made
with the Schoeps mic to see if he gets what he's after. He can also try
putting the mic in a different position, recording in a different room,
using different strings, filing his nails differently

I tried all these and also found the optimal setting for me. But what
I am referring to is a certain quality of the guitar, a slight over-
brightness and harshness (typical of a new spruce top classical that
still did not fully open up, which usually takes several years), and I
thought a ribbon could smoothen it a bit. (It's a great guitar
though.)

I'd be hesitant to recommend a specific mic,
particularly a Beyer, which can be a bit tricky to work with.

Why is a Beyer particularly tricky to work with?

(I thought Beyer because they are quite easy to get in Germany where I
live.)

Thanks!


You might be surprised by how little difference there is between a Beyer
ribbon and the Schoeps on classical guitar. One of the reasons that I
think ribbons have the reputation for sounding soft and warm is because
of most ribbon mics' lack of high frequency response, say above 10KHz,
but there's little or no sound coming from a classical guitar at those
frequencies, so it isn't really a significant issue here.

When I compared a Beyer M260 to a Schoeps 541, if anything the Beyer
sounded a little brighter. I didn't measure it but it seemed to me that
maybe the Beyer had some mid-range peaks whereas the Schoeps is pretty
flat; that might have been the cause of it. I seem to recall Hank making
a similar observation about a Beyer ribbon a while back in this group,
but I don't remember the context.

I should say that I really do like the sound of an M260 on classical
guitar (or I would if I ever got around to playing it, which doesn't
seem to have happened for a while...), but if as you say you're looking
for something warmer and softer than the Schoeps, I'd say a Beyer ribbon
mightn't be it.

Hank mentioned the AEA 84; I'll suggest you put a Coles mic on your
short list, the 4040 is a very different thing, darker, thicker
sounding. As to 'warmer', hmmm, not sure.

Lastly, a ribbon mic with a figure-8 pattern could be used as the side
mic in an MS pair, along with your Schoeps. It doesn't produce a
dramatic stereo effect, but it's interesting, it gives you a little of
the character of each of the two mics.

Cheers,
Nick

[hank alrich]

H. Khalil wrote:

On 20 Jul., 00:01, Mike Rivers wrote:

he can try playing with EQ on the recording that he made
with the Schoeps mic to see if he gets what he's after. He can also try
putting the mic in a different position, recording in a different room,
using different strings, filing his nails differently

I tried all these and also found the optimal setting for me. But what
I am referring to is a certain quality of the guitar, a slight over-
brightness and harshness (typical of a new spruce top classical that
still did not fully open up, which usually takes several years), and I
thought a ribbon could smoothen it a bit.

You could well be right.

(It's a great guitar
though.)

I'd be hesitant to recommend a specific mic,
particularly a Beyer, which can be a bit tricky to work with.

Why is a Beyer particularly tricky to work with?

The M160 and M130 in particular are quite insensitive and hence, require
a capable preamp offering lots of clean and quiet gain.

(I thought Beyer because they are quite easy to get in Germany where I
live.)

Try an M160, if you are presently recording with a single mic. This
might work very well for you.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Arny Krueger]

"Ethan Winer" ethanw at ethanwiner dot com wrote in
message

I sometimes would have liked the sound to be a tad
softer and warmer.

Assuming you have an EQ, that would do the same thing for
free.

Point being that you don't need to use a ribbon mic to get a warm sound, and
not that eq can make two mics with vastly different pickup patterns sound
the same.

[hank alrich]

H. Khalil wrote:

Hi,

I am recording classical guitar using a Schoeps CMC641 through the
Metric Halo ULN2 and am pleased with the result, except that I
sometimes would have liked the sound to be a tad softer and warmer. I
remember to have read that a ribbon mic might be the way to go, and
now I would like to try one.

Which particular ribbon mic(s) would you recommend for classical
guitar? Considering Beyerdynamic in particular, which of the three
models M130, M160 and M260 would be more suitable for the instrument?

If wanting to use a single mic, the M160. If wanting stereo, either a
pair of M160's for X/Y, or one M160 and one M130 for M/S tracking.

I have used M160's for decades, and M260's (the original model, not the
new and unimproved model) for several years. Each has its uses, but in
general the M260 is a lower grade mic than the M160. It can sound
fabulous on certain voices, harmonicas, and amps.

Personally, I would audition one of Wes Dolley's AEA R84's before
purchasing anything.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Ty Ford]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 09:48:39 -0400, H. Khalil wrote
(in article
):

Hi,

I am recording classical guitar using a Schoeps CMC641 through the
Metric Halo ULN2 and am pleased with the result, except that I
sometimes would have liked the sound to be a tad softer and warmer. I
remember to have read that a ribbon mic might be the way to go, and
now I would like to try one.

Which particular ribbon mic(s) would you recommend for classical
guitar? Considering Beyerdynamic in particular, which of the three
models M130, M160 and M260 would be more suitable for the instrument?

Thanks!

Dear H,

Everyone seems to have jumped to your aid, but first lets examine what you're
asking for. That Schoeps is about as neutral as it gets. Ribbon mics are NOT
neutral.

As mentioned in this string, some ribbons may even be brighter. I'm not
convinced that a different mic would get you to where you think you want to
be.

Perhaps you could post a sample of what you don't like.

1. What preamp are you using. The mating of mic and preamp make a
considerable difference.

2. What strings are you using and would others get the sound you want?

3. What does the guitar sound like? If it's making a sound you don't like,
the use of mics is of limited help if you're looking to tone down the sound.
You'll get there but it'll sound muddy.

4. Maybe you're overplaying the guitar, causing it to sound too harsh; or too
much nail, not enough tip.

Regards,

Ty Ford




--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[H. Khalil]

On 20 Jul., 19:05, Ty Ford wrote:

Everyone seems to have jumped to your aid, but first lets examine what you're
asking for. That Schoeps is about as neutral as it gets. Ribbon mics are NOT
neutral.

Dear Ty, thanks for taking the trouble to answer in such detail.

First, rest assured everything concerning guitar technique, nails,
strings etc is ok. Also, I know my present mic and preamps (ULN2) are
ok. But that's not the issue. As I mentioned, my preferred guitar has
a slight, intrinsic harshness to its sound which I hoped - based on my
limited knowledge of recording gear - could be smoothen out with a
ribbon mic. I would be happy with such mic even if it's not perfectly
neutral, provided it's not bright.

Based on this thread I decided to get the M160, and if not pleased
send it back.

Thanks everybody here for your help, I really appreciate it.

[hank alrich]

H. Khalil wrote:

Based on this thread I decided to get the M160, and if not pleased
send it back.

Please share your impressions with us.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Ty Ford]

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 14:31:13 -0400, H. Khalil wrote
(in article
):

On 20 Jul., 19:05, Ty Ford wrote:

Everyone seems to have jumped to your aid, but first lets examine what
you're
asking for. That Schoeps is about as neutral as it gets. Ribbon mics are NOT
neutral.

Dear Ty, thanks for taking the trouble to answer in such detail.

First, rest assured everything concerning guitar technique, nails,
strings etc is ok. Also, I know my present mic and preamps (ULN2) are
ok. But that's not the issue. As I mentioned, my preferred guitar has
a slight, intrinsic harshness to its sound which I hoped - based on my
limited knowledge of recording gear - could be smoothen out with a
ribbon mic. I would be happy with such mic even if it's not perfectly
neutral, provided it's not bright.

Based on this thread I decided to get the M160, and if not pleased
send it back.

Thanks everybody here for your help, I really appreciate it.

K,

Understand. My M160 is somewhat finnicky as to the mic pre. There are a few
it really does well with.

AEA TRP, Neve 9098, Jensen Dual Servo.

Try to get one of them and please let us know how it comes out.

Are different strings a possibility?

Regards,

Ty Ford



--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[H. Khalil]

On 21 Jul., 16:59, Ty Ford wrote:

Understand. My M160 is somewhat finnicky as to the mic pre. There are a few
it really does well with. AEA TRP, Neve 9098, Jensen Dual Servo.
Try to get one of them and please let us know how it comes out.

Unfortunately, a new pre is not an option for me right now. I've got
the Metric Halo ULN2 and can only hope it works well with the M160. It
has lots of quiet gain and presumably can drive a ribbon.

Anyway, just ordered the M160 and when it comes I'll let you know how
it fares against the MK41 on my guitar. If possible, I will post audio
samples so you can help me decide :-)

Cheers!

[Roy W. Rising[_2_]]

"H. Khalil" wrote:
On 21 Jul., 16:59, Ty Ford wrote:

Understand. My M160 is somewhat finnicky as to the mic pre. There are a
few it really does well with. AEA TRP, Neve 9098, Jensen Dual Servo.
Try to get one of them and please let us know how it comes out.

Unfortunately, a new pre is not an option for me right now. I've got
the Metric Halo ULN2 and can only hope it works well with the M160. It
has lots of quiet gain and presumably can drive a ribbon.

Anyway, just ordered the M160 and when it comes I'll let you know how
it fares against the MK41 on my guitar. If possible, I will post audio
samples so you can help me decide :-)

Cheers!

Enjoy the M160, it's a great mic. Just remember that ribbons don't like
loading. The ULN2's input impedance is 3.3K ohms, suitably above the
"2K ohms or greater" rule of thumb for ribbons. It should sound great.

--
~
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"

[hank alrich]

H. Khalil wrote:

On 21 Jul., 16:59, Ty Ford wrote:

Understand. My M160 is somewhat finnicky as to the mic pre. There are a few
it really does well with. AEA TRP, Neve 9098, Jensen Dual Servo.
Try to get one of them and please let us know how it comes out.

Unfortunately, a new pre is not an option for me right now. I've got
the Metric Halo ULN2 and can only hope it works well with the M160. It
has lots of quiet gain and presumably can drive a ribbon.

It's in the fabulous category as a mic pre. It will deal well with the
M160.

Anyway, just ordered the M160 and when it comes I'll let you know how
it fares against the MK41 on my guitar. If possible, I will post audio
samples so you can help me decide :-)

This is all about picking the lens you need to get the picture you want,
but in the aural realm.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Scott Dorsey]

H. Khalil wrote:
On 21 Jul., 16:59, Ty Ford wrote:

Understand. My M160 is somewhat finnicky as to the mic pre. There are a few
it really does well with. AEA TRP, Neve 9098, Jensen Dual Servo.
Try to get one of them and please let us know how it comes out.

Unfortunately, a new pre is not an option for me right now. I've got
the Metric Halo ULN2 and can only hope it works well with the M160. It
has lots of quiet gain and presumably can drive a ribbon.

Anyway, just ordered the M160 and when it comes I'll let you know how
it fares against the MK41 on my guitar. If possible, I will post audio
samples so you can help me decide :-)

You just ordered it sight-unseen, without actually listening to it? That
is _always_ a mistake.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ty Ford]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:48:22 -0400, H. Khalil wrote
(in article
):

On 21 Jul., 16:59, Ty Ford wrote:

Understand. My M160 is somewhat finnicky as to the mic pre. There are a few
it really does well with. AEA TRP, Neve 9098, Jensen Dual Servo.
Try to get one of them and please let us know how it comes out.

Unfortunately, a new pre is not an option for me right now. I've got
the Metric Halo ULN2 and can only hope it works well with the M160. It
has lots of quiet gain and presumably can drive a ribbon.

Anyway, just ordered the M160 and when it comes I'll let you know how
it fares against the MK41 on my guitar. If possible, I will post audio
samples so you can help me decide :-)

Cheers!


I have both mics here. On my Martin I prefer the Schoeps, but you're after
something to alter the sound of your guitar. I'm pretty happy with mine.

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZJ9MptZmU

[Scott Dorsey]

H. Khalil wrote:

I am recording classical guitar using a Schoeps CMC641 through the
Metric Halo ULN2 and am pleased with the result, except that I
sometimes would have liked the sound to be a tad softer and warmer. I
remember to have read that a ribbon mic might be the way to go, and
now I would like to try one.

Which particular ribbon mic(s) would you recommend for classical
guitar? Considering Beyerdynamic in particular, which of the three
models M130, M160 and M260 would be more suitable for the instrument?

They're all good, and they are all different. I don't know what your
room is like and I don't know what your instrument and style are like,
so how can anyone recommend the microphone for you?

You need to go try some. All three are good but all three are different.
I tend to grab the M160 first, but Paul Stamler tends to grab the M260
first. The M130 is voiced to sound very much like the M160, but it's a
figure-8 so it has a deep null which can sometimes be handy.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Paul Stamler]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

You need to go try some. All three are good but all three are different.
I tend to grab the M160 first, but Paul Stamler tends to grab the M260
first.

Which is because I happen to *have" an M260, while I hope to own an M160 one
of these days after I get done paying for other things.

Peace,
Paul

[hank alrich]

Paul Stamler wrote:

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

You need to go try some. All three are good but all three are different.
I tend to grab the M160 first, but Paul Stamler tends to grab the M260
first.

Which is because I happen to *have" an M260, while I hope to own an M160 one
of these days after I get done paying for other things.

They are remarkably different mics, based on my pairs of each. The M160
is a "higher quality" mic, smoother and a bit sweeter to me (whatever
that **** means); the M260 has a little edge, a little bite that isn't
painful in most situations, that works well with some sources.

For one vocalist I work with the M260 works as if it cost a couple
grand. In other situations it's not transparent enough, too intrusive. I
think some of this is due to its output transformer.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Eric B]

Dear H
You might want to consider omnis.
Among the inherent problems with directional mics is that they are
boomy when positioned too close due to the proximity effect and
increasingly thin and colored at more ambient distances, due to off
axis phase distortion. Omnis don't have these problems, especially
small diaphgram omnis. A lot of people are afraid of them. Omnis work
better in a good sounding room, but since they have no proximity
effect you can move in closer with good results and good seperation.
Someone once said to me that a cardioid is just a broken omni.
Ribbons might be better than the Shoeps (which are very good mics).
The reputation is that the transition into the higher frequencies is
smoother with ribbons. They tend to have very low sensitivity, so you
will need a good quiet preamp with 60dB+ of gain. The MIO can do this,
I think.
Ribbons are usually a figure of 8 pickup pattern so you have to be
aware of the 180 degree off axis arrivals. Sometimes this out of phase
room sound sounds good, sometimes not. If not you have to be prepared
to reduce these arrivals physically, or aim the back somewhere else.
Which of these Beyer models is best- I don't know. Listen.
If you have questions please feel free to contact me. I like talking
about recording acoustic instruments. It's fun.
Eric Blackmer Blackmer Sound (.com)