[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

straightnut wrote:

I'm relying on the reviews I read as to how they sound, which is why
the 1212M and 1616M, even though soon to be obsolete PCI cards, are
still attractive to me.

Understood. Currently I would have PCI as the first choice, do not rush to
usb and firewire, PCI offers a lower use of computer resources. And what
Mike said.

The 1616M plus the full version software would
be in the neighborhood of $800 plus a midi interface. The 1212M plus
the full software plus a good small mixer would be around $600. This
is why I think the 1212M may be the right choice. For the $50 over the
0404 USB 2.0 solution, I get the flexibility of having a mixer as my
interface, I get the added hardware driven effects, and I get better
converters and sound.

I can see the math. You are aware that the 1212 only has two analog inputs?

Jeff

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[straightnut]

On Nov 9, 9:20 pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Nov 9, 9:07 pm, straightnut wrote:

I'm relying on the reviews I read as to how they sound, which is why
the 1212M and 1616M, even though soon to be obsolete PCI cards, are
still attractive to me.

Several things to consider he

1. Your computer will last you for a few years, so the PCI interface
isn't going to be obsolete as long as you have that computer. When you
replace your computer, you might be ready to replace your interface
too. And even if you don't want to but have to because your next
computer doesn't have any PCI slots, you will presumably have got your
money's worth out of it and shouldn't feel too bad about replacing
it.

Good point. And if a $150 sound card should last a few years, I will
be quite grateful and feel as though I got away with something.

2. There are probably detectable differences in sound when comparing
one interface with another, but any one in this price range, when
listened to on its own, will sound just fine. It's not worth worrying
about whether one sounds marginally better than the other. Pick the
one with the features you want (including bundled software).

The USB unit does seem like a steal to me with all that I would
need...

3. Flexibility is always nice as long as It doesn't make everything
more complicated.

....but then there's no mixer. I do think it would be silly for me to
go with the 1616M option for the extra $250. I don't see any advantage
in that, but the other two are neck and neck. I should go look at
mixers. I forget what a mixer can do for me except add some EQ before
recording, which I probably wouldn't want to use in the price range
I'm looking anyway.
I forgot about the built-in analog soft limiter on the USB unit that
could be useful. Before answering your post I was all for the 1212
PCI, and now the 0404 USB looks better to me. I have to go look at a
few mixers...

Jeff

[straightnut]

On Nov 9, 11:18 pm, "Peter Larsen" wrote:
straightnut wrote:
I'm relying on the reviews I read as to how they sound, which is why
the 1212M and 1616M, even though soon to be obsolete PCI cards, are
still attractive to me.

Understood. Currently I would have PCI as the first choice, do not rush to
usb and firewire, PCI offers a lower use of computer resources. And what
Mike said.

The 1616M plus the full version software would
be in the neighborhood of $800 plus a midi interface. The 1212M plus
the full software plus a good small mixer would be around $600. This
is why I think the 1212M may be the right choice. For the $50 over the
0404 USB 2.0 solution, I get the flexibility of having a mixer as my
interface, I get the added hardware driven effects, and I get better
converters and sound.

I can see the math. You are aware that the 1212 only has two analog inputs?

Yes. Another good point. I assumed I would never use more than 2
inputs at a time, but I suppose there could come a time when more
would be wanted. And the USB unit has 4, I believe. Hmmm, let me
check. No, actually only 2 as well. It says 4 by 4, but I believe
they're talking Spdif. Another thing to consider. Thanks.
Jeff

[Laurence Payne]

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 18:07:32 -0800, straightnut
wrote:

I'm relying on the reviews I read as to how they sound, which is why
the 1212M and 1616M, even though soon to be obsolete PCI cards, are
still attractive to me.

Reviewers feel they have to make comparisons. You'll actually hear
very little, if any, difference between soundcards once you're beyond
the cheap-and-nasty level.

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

straightnut wrote:

I can see the math. You are aware that the 1212 only has two analog
inputs?

Yes. Another good point. I assumed I would never use more than 2
inputs at a time, but I suppose there could come a time when more
would be wanted.

THIS is why my initial suggestion was a 1010lt and a Soundcraft EPM 8 or 12.
It is the lowest hardware cost I can come up with for probably usable stuff.
I have to say probably usable because while I do have a 1010lt, right now in
a broken workstation that needs new mobo I still have to get a listen to the
EPM it just came up as seemingly best buy when I looked for front end to a
harddisk recorder I skipped buying because it was too old. Your mileage may
differ wildly, what you need is the tools you like, and they may or may not
be the tools I like.

Go check the downloadable demo of audition 3 on adobes site before you make
your mind up. No affiliation. There may also be a downloadable demo of
Samplitude LE, didn't check that. With a3 you don't care about hardware
effects because what you get is better, that too could apply for sam le and
sam. Magix Music Studio is son of Sam btw. ... and has been known to save
sam owners when their dongle died ....

Jeff


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Mike Rivers]

On Nov 10, 12:49 am, straightnut wrote:

I should go look at
mixers. I forget what a mixer can do for me except add some EQ before
recording, which I probably wouldn't want to use in the price range
I'm looking anyway.

There are so many levels on which to answer that. The most basic
answer is that the mixer can be the heart of your recording system,
but since some of the functions of a mixer are duplicated (some
better, some worse) in all but the most basic audio interfaces, you'll
start agonizing over things like which mic preamp is better - the one
in the mixer or the one in the sound card.

If you don't use the mixer's mic preamp, you lose the ability to
directly monitor the input and mix it with the DAW playback for
overdubs. That capability is built into some, but not all interfaces.
And you can always get that mix from a DAW program, but it will suffer
the latency of the input source making a round trip through the
computer, which can range in effect from being something you have to
learn to ignore, to annoying, to completely impossible to work with.
Where it is in that scale depends on your computer setup and your own
personal tolerance.

The mixer can also be your monitor controller, giving you a way to
adjust the control room speaker and headphone levels (hopefully
independently) and a larger mixer will give you the ability to hear
different mixes. It can also give you EQ (though most mixers these
days are set up to record straight out of the mic preamp without going
through the EQ stage - because that's what most people want to do).

There's a class of device called a "Monitor Controller" (such as the
Mackie Big Knob or Presonus Central Station) that offer a lot of the
routing and control of a mixer, and there are audio interfaces that
provide a certain amount of monitor mixing and control (such as the
Mackie 400F) but that's more channels than you need for recording
yourself, and more money.

I forgot about the built-in analog soft limiter on the USB unit that
could be useful.

I guess it never hurts, but you'll want to be able to hear what it's
doing so you can decide if it's helpful or harmful. The best tool for
preventing overloads is the input gain control. It's hard to make
decisions about dynamics control when you're concentrating on playing
or singing.

[straightnut]

On Nov 10, 8:47 am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Nov 10, 12:49 am, straightnut wrote:

I should go look at
mixers. I forget what a mixer can do for me except add some EQ before
recording, which I probably wouldn't want to use in the price range
I'm looking anyway.

There are so many levels on which to answer that. The most basic
answer is that the mixer can be the heart of your recording system,
but since some of the functions of a mixer are duplicated (some
better, some worse) in all but the most basic audio interfaces, you'll
start agonizing over things like which mic preamp is better - the one
in the mixer or the one in the sound card.

If you don't use the mixer's mic preamp, you lose the ability to
directly monitor the input and mix it with the DAW playback for
overdubs. That capability is built into some, but not all interfaces.
And you can always get that mix from a DAW program, but it will suffer
the latency of the input source making a round trip through the
computer, which can range in effect from being something you have to
learn to ignore, to annoying, to completely impossible to work with.
Where it is in that scale depends on your computer setup and your own
personal tolerance.

The mixer can also be your monitor controller, giving you a way to
adjust the control room speaker and headphone levels (hopefully
independently) and a larger mixer will give you the ability to hear
different mixes. It can also give you EQ (though most mixers these
days are set up to record straight out of the mic preamp without going
through the EQ stage - because that's what most people want to do).

There's a class of device called a "Monitor Controller" (such as the
Mackie Big Knob or Presonus Central Station) that offer a lot of the
routing and control of a mixer, and there are audio interfaces that
provide a certain amount of monitor mixing and control (such as the
Mackie 400F) but that's more channels than you need for recording
yourself, and more money.

I forgot about the built-in analog soft limiter on the USB unit that
could be useful.

I guess it never hurts, but you'll want to be able to hear what it's
doing so you can decide if it's helpful or harmful. The best tool for
preventing overloads is the input gain control. It's hard to make
decisions about dynamics control when you're concentrating on playing
or singing.

Wow. That's a lot I hadn't considered. Thanks Mike.
Jeff

[Mike Rivers]

On Nov 10, 10:58 am, straightnut wrote:

Wow. That's a lot I hadn't considered. Thanks Mike.

I left out the obvious - you can also use a mixer for mixing. While
DAWs are great for the strength of their (plug-in) signal processing
and editing, I lose my patience (and place) very quickly when using an
on-screen mixer. I much prefer sending individual tracks or static
submixes out of the computer and into a real mixer for hands-on
control.

[Mike Rivers]

On Nov 10, 12:44 pm, "soundhaspriority" wrote:

Mike, why don't you use a control surface?

Hah!

First you should ask me why I don't use a DAW.

And the answer is that I have a perfectly good recorder and mixing
console. I don't need another control surface.

[straightnut]

On Nov 10, 11:42 am, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Nov 10, 10:58 am, straightnut wrote:

Wow. That's a lot I hadn't considered. Thanks Mike.

I left out the obvious - you can also use a mixer for mixing. While
DAWs are great for the strength of their (plug-in) signal processing
and editing, I lose my patience (and place) very quickly when using an
on-screen mixer. I much prefer sending individual tracks or static
submixes out of the computer and into a real mixer for hands-on
control.

I can visualize the potential frustration of mouse clicking and
dragging everything in the mix. But I'm a creature who likes
consolidation, and doing everything onscreen appeals to me. The
controllers sound like a good thing, but also too expensive right now.
If I find that it gets too frustrating I may eventually go with one of
those.

As I believe you agreed in a previous post, the bundled software is
worth considering in the purchase of an interface in this range, and
after reconsidering what comes with the T.C. Electronics Konnekt 24D,
I don't think I can pass it up. The hardware driven Fabrik R and
Fabrik C is worth $600 alone, and the included Assimilator plug-in is
worth another $200. They're not just a bargain, but a bargain I can
see myself using all the time.
For another $100 I can buy the original E-Mu 0404 PCI card, not as an
interface, but as an improvised "voucher" towards the purchase of the
full software version of my choice as well as a dedicated hardware
driven effects processor.

Sorry to be such a flip-flopper during this process, but it'll likely
end soon. And hopefully it'll end with some actual music being
created.
Thanks for all of your help.
Jeff

[straightnut]

On Nov 10, 12:44 pm, "soundhaspriority" wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message

ups.com... On Nov 10, 10:58 am, straightnut wrote:

Wow. That's a lot I hadn't considered. Thanks Mike.

I left out the obvious - you can also use a mixer for mixing. While
DAWs are great for the strength of their (plug-in) signal processing
and editing, I lose my patience (and place) very quickly when using an
on-screen mixer. I much prefer sending individual tracks or static
submixes out of the computer and into a real mixer for hands-on
control.

Mike, why don't you use a control surface?

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511

I may consider one in the future. Thanks for bringing that up. I
forgot about those.
Jeff

[Mike Rivers]

On Nov 10, 4:28 pm, "soundhaspriority" wrote:

But for someone who hasn't spent years acquiring all that specific skill, it
seems to me a control surface is a better alternative.

Possibly true in the end (because our ends may be different) but the
problem with a computer and a control surface is that you never learn
how anything works so you can't solve your own problems. And you can't
troubleshoot when something goes wrong.

My problem with the near-affordable control surfaces is that they
don't have enough controls. Instead of having six knobs on 24 channels
for the EQ, you have four knobs on one area of the control surface and
one button for each channel to tell those knobs to work on that
channel. To some people that makes great sense. To me, it's confusing
because I always have to remember which channel the knobs are set of
(or look).

There's the operating latency. It may only be a few milliseconds, but,
dammint, I notice when I move a control and don't hear anything
change. (digital consoles have the same problem, so that's not the
solution)

Then there's the fabulous resetability. There's usually a number
associated with each control setting, but those are pretty
meaningless. I don't really care that I've boosted the vocal 3.7 dB at
4072.5 Hz particularly when I turn the knob the smallest amoutn I can
and it read 4106.3 Hz. What's wrong with "2 o'clock, 3 o'clock?"

I could go on and on. But have it your way and I'll have it my way.

There's something comforting about typing on a typewriter, too. You
have instant feedback. I hate those "silent" keyboards, and a fake key
click coming out of the speaker is no comfort. g

[straightnut]

Life is tough. Is he killing anyone? Molesting anyone?
He seems interesting at least. Very few are.
Jeff

[Peter Larsen[_2_]]

straightnut wrote:

I can visualize the potential frustration of mouse clicking and
dragging everything in the mix

That's not the nuisance, the nuisance is waiting for the whatever you did to
happen. It like the difference between using a radio mouse or a wired mouse,
or like the radio keyboard that flew because it could't keep up with my
typing.

Sorry to be such a flip-flopper during this process

It is a lot better to change your mind prior to purchasing than after.

Always remember the to define the problem you want solved and to ask
(yourself) whether what you consider actually solves it and/or whatever
other problem it solves, including whether that problem is is yours or it is
a solution to the salesmans need for money .... O;-), which is to say that
you should spend your money wisely and cautionsly and focus on basics rather
than on frills. Just my opinion ....

Jeff


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[straightnut]

On Nov 11, 2:40 am, "soundhaspriority" wrote:
"straightnut" wrote in message

ups.com... Life is tough. Is he killing anyone? Molesting anyone?
He seems interesting at least. Very few are.
Jeff

Jeff, thanks for your kindness. It's really best to ignore Mr. McCarty
completely. He derives satisfaction from any kind of attention, either
positive or negative. Or, if you feel the need to reply, it's best to remove
the crossposts to the many other groups. BTW, he posts elsewhere in this
forum as .

Bob Morein
(310) 237-6511

Oh. Okay.
Peace!
Jeff