[[email protected]]

I'm interested in this speaker. Anyone has built one and has the plan to share with me.

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20T91HWAF3.jpg

Many thanks!

[Peter Wieck]

On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 7:40:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I'm interested in this speaker. Anyone has built one and has the plan to share with me.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...+speaker+plans

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...+Speaker+Plans

There are dozens of horn plans available on-line, pretty much all of them infinitely better than the design you have linked. Pick the one that strikes your fancy and try it out. BUT: There are some issues with such speakers:

a) They do tend to be extremely efficient, so they do lend themselves to low-powered amplifiers. That is about the single most positive thing that may be written about them.

b) Making good (and full) sound is about moving air. Moving air requires energy and surface area. At the one extreme of this relationship is the horn speaker with (a) tiny driver(s) driven by a low-powered source relying on the baffles and fold of the horn to further amplify the sound - much as an ear trumpet in reverse, or an old-fashioned acoustic phonograph horn. At the other end are planar speakers with multiple square feet (cm) of surface area driven by brute-force amplifiers that can blow out a candle at a couple of feet (not really, but you get the picture).

c) You will find, as you do your research, that horn speakers can be spectacular for very limited sorts of signal - Gregorian Chant, solo voice, solo limited to mid range instruments - guitar, flute, and so forth. But for the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony or Kiri Te Kanawa doing Exultate Jubilate, not hardly.

d) Horns are expensive for real-estate. Either they take up a good deal of floor space, or they are quite tall, or they require very careful placement, any one, two or all three. Perhaps not as difficult to place as some planar speakers - 6 feet of height can be awkward - but typically more so than conventionally designed speakers, either "bookshelf" or "floor standing".

e) Making horn speakers about the most inflexible and limited speakers on the planet, such that unless one uses them as proof of concept, they will make any audiophile acutely unhappy in short order *UNLESS* listening is limited to those (very) few things they do extremely well.

f) Klipsch made/makes excellent horns speakers. However they use multiple drivers and require specific placement to deliver clean, full-range sound. They are also costly as they create that sound legitimately rather than relying on passive amplification.

http://cdn.soundandvision.com/images...?itok=BaWjcUyF

Whenever I get the temptation to indulge in horn speakers, I lie down until it goes away.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Big Bad Bob]

On 06/08/16 04:14, Peter Wieck so wittily quipped:
On Tuesday, June 7, 2016 at 7:40:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I'm interested in this speaker. Anyone has built one and has the plan to share with me.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...+speaker+plans

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...+Speaker+Plans

There are dozens of horn plans available on-line, pretty much all of them infinitely better than the design you have linked. Pick the one that strikes your fancy and try it out. BUT: There are some issues with such speakers:

snip

yeah, pretty much a foregone conclusion on that. with the exception of
tweeter horns, anyway [they seem to work ok]. But I never really use
those any more either.

Whenever I get the temptation to indulge in horn speakers, I lie down until it goes away.

related, the Howard W. Sams book on speaker design (an oldie but a
goodie) goes into various aspects of horn design, not in a LOT of detail
as I recall.

My inclination has always been to make the largest practical 'infinite
baffle' enclosure, use heavy cone large magnet woofers, a proper
crossover, and matching mid/tweeter (as needed). The speaker efficiency
DOES need to match between woofer, mid, and tweeter, or your mid/tweeter
will be TOO LOUD for a proper flat response. Woofers, particularly
heavy cone woofers, tend to be slightly LESS efficient than their
lighter-coned brothers as mid/tweeter.

A nice way to cheat: use a REALLY good set of 6x9 tri-axial car
speakers in an infinite baffle enclosure, with the 'golden' 2x3x4 ratio,
placed nearer to one corder (bottom right/left is what I prefer), so
that they mirror one another, and place them so that the speakers are
the widest possible distance from one another. 3 cubic feet usually
works well, then line it with some kind of acoustic material to prevent
resonance and improve frequency response. Bass reflex ports optional.
I never seem to need them...

[Patrick Turner]

On Wednesday, 8 June 2016 09:40:50 UTC+10, wrote:
I'm interested in this speaker. Anyone has built one and has the plan to share with me.

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20T91HWAF3.jpg

Many thanks!

That looks like a horn loaded speaker. I don't have details. But a guy here tried to make a pair very similar for a 5" full range driver. No matter what amp he used, the sound was very poor and well below the quality expected, ie, he ended up with "expensive firewood" so you really do need to be some kind of expert to succeed, and enclosure resonaces can be quite a bother.
I witnessed several fellows trying to make horn speakers, all failed, except those who used restored midrange and treble JBL drivers where they just renewed parts, but didn't have to do any woodwork or calculations to try to get good bass.
Patrick Turner.

[Peter Wieck]

On Sunday, June 26, 2016 at 11:13:02 AM UTC-4, Patrick Turner wrote:

That looks like a horn loaded speaker. I don't have details. But a guy here tried to make a pair very similar for a 5" full range driver. No matter what amp he used, the sound was very poor and well below the quality expected, ie, he ended up with "expensive firewood" so you really do need to be some kind of expert to succeed, and enclosure resonaces can be quite a bother.

[Big Bad Bob]

On 06/28/16 06:16, Peter Wieck so wittily quipped:
I prefer the Boston sound

never heard that before, 'Boston Sound'. Or 'California Sound' for that
matter.

I just want flat response and reasonable sound distribution.

My home stereo speakers are 6x9 'triaxial' car speakers in ~3ft^3
infinite baffle cabinets (build ~40 years ago with a 2x3x4 dimension
ratio, which in many respects is 'ideal') with some cheap anti-echo
stuff stapled on the inside and decent grill cloth [it's actually Peavey
grill cloth, you can buy it in rolls if you look for it online]. The
triaxial car speakers were chosen specifically for a compromise of price
and performance, last replaced back in the mid 90's (the old ones were
disintegrating). They're not "the most expensive" speakers, but some of
the MORE expensive ones that were available at the time. [I forget who
makes them, Pioneer maybe].

These speaker cabinets sound nicer (or as good as) ANYTHING I've heard
ANYWHERE, in my bombastic opinion. It's almost as good as high end
headphones for frequency response. They fill a large living room with
sound, and they work really well for movie sound (even though it's just
2 channels) as well as music. It's like being in a theater, yeah.


but you'll want headroom on your amplifier to power anything like that.
at least 20W per channel. If you're using tubes, that'd be a pair of
6L6's or equivalent on each side. [you can by kit amplifiers with
that... last I checked]

[Peter Wieck]

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 1:54:49 AM UTC-4, Big Bad Bob wrote:


never heard that before, 'Boston Sound'. Or 'California Sound' for that
matter.

I just want flat response and reasonable sound distribution.


It seems that most of the well-made acoustic-suspension speakers came out of Boston/Cambridge starting in the 1960s, and continuing into the 90s or so before International Jensen came in and pretty much destroyed the industry. These speakers were known for being (relatively) compact, inefficient, and almost boringly accurate within their response curves.

The west coast, on the other hand, developed speakers that were very bright relative to all things, with curves skewed up at the bass and treble ends of the curve. Cerwin Vega was a prime example of the species with massive woofers and very loud horn tweeters, with the midrange being amongst the missing. Also fairly efficient as measured in noise-per-watt. So, smaller amplifiers were OK - even though a LOT of tweeters were destroyed by clipping if the owners did not show some restraint.

The problem with horn-loaded speakers is that they simply can't move enough air to provide the full range of sound. Power notwithstanding. My least powerful amp is an optimistic 17 wpc/rms using EL84s in PP. My most powerful is a 200 wpc/rms brute-force device every bit of which I need for the Maggies - very nearly dead-flat from 32 Hz - 40 K Hz, down only 6dB at 20 Hz.

Point being that every person has choices in what they like. And certain speakers generally favor certain types of signal over others. Were this not the case, all ice-cream would be vanilla. At this point, I keep six speaker systems in general service, all AR but for the Maggies - which are in the main system. I really _DO_favor the Boston Sound, but, the Maggies blow all of them away. I guess it is also speakers like the Maggies that have removed any temptation I might have had to roll my own. Or, I could spend an obscene amount of money to make my own planar speakers.....

http://www.eraudio.com.au/DIY_Speake...n_esl_kit.html

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Andre Jute[_2_]]

On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 12:40:50 AM UTC+1, wrote:
I'm interested in this speaker. Anyone has built one and has the plan to share with me.

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20T91HWAF3.jpg

Many thanks!

Plans are available from Lowther. Ask for the Fidelio Bicor plans. You need to be an expert woodworker to cut your own wood. Check the many angles. Your best bet is to buy the wood pre-sawn. I got mine from Audio Technik in Germany. There is more about the development of this loudspeaker at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...dre%20Jute.htm

You can ignore the resident "instant experts". They can't even recognize a basic Lowther Fidelio design intended for Lowther PM6A drivers, but they know what it will sound like! Such ignorant arrogance casts doubt on everything else they say.

It's a grand speaker with a grand sound when matched to a suitable amplifier.

[Peter Wieck]

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 5:44:23 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 12:40:50 AM UTC+1, wrote:
I'm interested in this speaker. Anyone has built one and has the plan to share with me.

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20T91HWAF3.jpg

Many thanks!

Plans are available from Lowther. Ask for the Fidelio Bicor plans. You need to be an expert woodworker to cut your own wood. Check the many angles. Your best bet is to buy the wood pre-sawn. I got mine from Audio Technik in Germany. There is more about the development of this loudspeaker at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...dre%20Jute.htm

You can ignore the resident "instant experts". They can't even recognize a basic Lowther Fidelio design intended for Lowther PM6A drivers, but they know what it will sound like! Such ignorant arrogance casts doubt on everything else they say.

It's a grand speaker with a grand sound when matched to a suitable amplifier.

Andre Jute
There are those who do, and those who pose on the net

Show us some performance curves. If you can't (or won't) then please do not attempt to influence someone new to the hobby into a toxic decision that *WILL* make him unhappy, but only after the expenditure of considerable and unrecoverable time and treasure. Generally, a audio speaker of any repute should be dead-flat (3dB) from 40 Hz to 20 KHz. Very good ones will be +/- 3dB from 20 - 40K. Lowthers are (typically) measured only between 200 and 10K, as their performance past those points on either end drops so severely.

Excellent for the human voice. limited instruments. Limited signal. But, for instance, the Saint-Saens Organ Symphony, not so much. Again, consider the physics involved with shaking sufficient air to approach that of actual music across the full dynamic range. Takes a certain amount of energy distributed across a certain amount of active surface area.

May they also be high-resolution performance curves. All sorts of low-res stuff is out there, way to small to see the start and end points.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Big Bad Bob]

On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 12:40:50 AM UTC+1, wrote:
I'm interested in this speaker. Anyone has built one and has the plan to share with me.

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20T91HWAF3.jpg

Many thanks!


Then, On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 5:44:23 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:

Plans are available from Lowther. Ask for the Fidelio Bicor plans. You need to be an expert woodworker to cut your own wood. Check the many angles. Your best bet is to buy the wood pre-sawn. I got mine from Audio Technik in Germany. There is more about the development of this loudspeaker at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...dre%20Jute.htm

You can ignore the resident "instant experts".

who would THAT be?

Such ignorant arrogance casts doubt on everything else they say.

really? (/me snickers)

It's a grand speaker with a grand sound when matched to a suitable amplifier.

more snippage

And finally, on 07/14/16 05:39, Peter Wieck so wittily quipped:

Show us some performance curves. If you can't (or won't) then please do not attempt to influence someone new to the hobby into a toxic decision that *WILL* make him unhappy, but only after the expenditure of considerable and unrecoverable time and treasure. Generally, a audio speaker of any repute should be dead-flat (3dB) from 40 Hz to 20 KHz. Very good ones will be +/- 3dB from 20 - 40K. Lowthers are (typically) measured only between 200 and 10K, as their performance past those points on either end drops so severely.

and that would be a DEAL KILLER as far as I am concerned. I don't like
hearing the low E on the bass 'drop off' or go 'boom'.

And horns+cymbals shouldn't sound like you turned down the treble
control, either.

I know what stuff will sound like through decent quality headphones. So
when I speaker-shop, I go to that 'big wall' (assuming one exists) and
play music through them until I hear something that sounds like what I
expect it to sound like with decent headphones. You compare that to the
published specs, etc.. You also need to calculate free air resononance
for woofers and subs, make sure your reflex ports and cabinet size are
correctly adjusted. The Howard W. Sams book on speaker design is pretty
good for that kind of thing, gives you some nice starting points.

So unless your cabinet is tweeked for specific speakers, the design is a
lot of CRAP. Sure, you might get lucky and pick the correct ones, and
they might even be matched with one another as far as woofer/mid/tweeter
go, and your crossover might even have the correct frequencies in its
design so that there aren't any humps or valleys in the performance
curve, no gross phase shifting, yotta yotta, and that ALSO includes
relative placement of the various speakers to one another with respect
to phase shifts and 'null points' in the audio spectrum caused by that
kind of thing, like repeatedly poking your finger in a bucket of water
where you see standing waves, swells, and troughs.

I've gotten the BEST performance EVER out of 'infinite baffle'
construction with no reflex port, and good quality 6x9 CAR SPEAKERS,
which have pre-fab construction with a crossover. Everything's been
designed to work well and with everything mounted 'on center' like that,
you don't get a lot of phase distortion between the woofer/mid/tweeter
drivers. The resulting audio is consistent, has good frequency
response, and isn't overly expensive or difficult to work with.

So I spend maybe $200/pair for the car speakers (let's say), and maybe
$100 on wood and other miscellaneous things for a 2x3x4 ratio 3 cubic
foot enclosure (using something like 3/4" presswood, to minimize
resonance effect), line it with some acoustic dampening material
(stapled in place with a staple gun), wire up a connection box (or just
hang the wire out the back), and make it look 'like furniture' (a nice
'cheat' way would be to use wood tape or presswood shelf material with
actual wood grain, glued in place). Grill cloth can be purchased from
musical instrument supply places (the Peavey cloth is actually pretty
nice). Paint flat color on the front so the grill cloth matches the
paint, put some framing around it, and some nice feet if you want.

Anyway, I did that _decades_ ago. Last replaced the drivers back in the
late 90's (the old cones were rotting away). Still sounds _great_,
handles 50W/channel easy. Makes movies sound like you're in the
theater. Doesn't need a subwoofer, either.

[Peter Wieck]

On Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 8:39:34 AM UTC-4, Peter Wieck wrote:
On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 5:44:23 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 12:40:50 AM UTC+1, wrote:
I'm interested in this speaker. Anyone has built one and has the plan to share with me.

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20T91HWAF3.jpg

Many thanks!

Plans are available from Lowther. Ask for the Fidelio Bicor plans. You need to be an expert woodworker to cut your own wood. Check the many angles.. Your best bet is to buy the wood pre-sawn. I got mine from Audio Technik in Germany. There is more about the development of this loudspeaker at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...dre%20Jute.htm

You can ignore the resident "instant experts". They can't even recognize a basic Lowther Fidelio design intended for Lowther PM6A drivers, but they know what it will sound like! Such ignorant arrogance casts doubt on everything else they say.

It's a grand speaker with a grand sound when matched to a suitable amplifier.

Andre Jute
There are those who do, and those who pose on the net

Show us some performance curves.

Thought not.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Big Bad Bob]

On 07/17/16 18:09, Peter Wieck so wittily quipped:
On Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 8:39:34 AM UTC-4, Peter Wieck wrote:
On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 5:44:23 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 12:40:50 AM UTC+1, wrote:
I'm interested in this speaker. Anyone has built one and has the plan to share with me.

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20T91HWAF3.jpg

Many thanks!

Plans are available from Lowther. Ask for the Fidelio Bicor plans. You need to be an expert woodworker to cut your own wood. Check the many angles. Your best bet is to buy the wood pre-sawn. I got mine from Audio Technik in Germany. There is more about the development of this loudspeaker at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...dre%20Jute.htm

You can ignore the resident "instant experts". They can't even recognize a basic Lowther Fidelio design intended for Lowther PM6A drivers, but they know what it will sound like! Such ignorant arrogance casts doubt on everything else they say.

It's a grand speaker with a grand sound when matched to a suitable amplifier.

Andre Jute
There are those who do, and those who pose on the net

Show us some performance curves.

Thought not.


yeah it's actually difficult to get some real performance curves. You
need an anechoic chamber and a calibrated microphone/signal
generator/amplifier combination with the ability to record the results
and chart it.

[Peter Wieck]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 3:04:43 PM UTC-4, Big Bad Bob wrote:

yeah it's actually difficult to get some real performance curves. You
need an anechoic chamber and a calibrated microphone/signal
generator/amplifier combination with the ability to record the results
and chart it.

If Lowther (or any other similar manufacturer) thought such curves could sell drivers, they would be available in intricate detail, and in every possible configuration. As it stands, there are a goodly amount of published curves out there on these drivers - conveniently truncated from 900 Hz to 10,000 Hz. There is nothing wrong with a speaker that is so-limited *AS LONG AS* the builder understands what he/she will be getting fully and completely. Were I to be restricted to listening only to Gregorian Chant, and were permitted only a 3-watt amplifier, I suspect I would be first in line for such systems. However. I am blessed not to be so-limited.

I was simply hoping that Andre, after his ringing endorsement of these speakers had the wherewithal to back his claims. But, no such luck.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Big Bad Bob]

On 07/20/16 14:41, Peter Wieck so wittily quipped:
I was simply hoping that Andre, after his ringing endorsement of these speakers had the wherewithal to back his claims. But, no such luck.


I totally get that, yeah. without actual performance data [that is
confirmable] it's all subjective.

[I hate 'subjective' - all touchy-feely and nauseatingly so]

seriously, though, not much has changed since THIS was first published:

https://www.amazon.com/speaker-enclo.../dp/B0006BOY46

[I have a copy somewhere; can't seem to locate it though]