[Trevor]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 4/27/2013 11:05 PM, Trevor wrote:
"Mike wrote in message
There are AES and IEC standards for digital interfacing that will help
here. They won't last forever, but will probably be of value for as long
as you want to use the hardware.

Right, but that severely limits the choice of affordable hardware at
present.

What limits do you see? Do you not want to buy something with an ADAT
optical interface for fear that you won't be able to get a mate for it in
ten years? This is computer hardware. Something that's essential to the
system will become obsolete before you're ready to give it up. Buy a PCI
card with an AES interface like a Lynx and the next computer you buy won't
have a PCI slot.

Right, they are already obsolete. Buying new hardware with that interface is
just plain silly.
(except for $10 stuff which you can throw away without a second thought)


Buy a USB interface to ADAT optical and in ten years nobody will be making
an 8-channel mic preamp with ADAT output.

I wouldn't bet on five let alone ten.


But chances are, first, your USB2 interface won't have a driver that works
with the USB4 interface on the computer after your next one.

If USB4 follows USB3, USB2 and USB1 backward compatibility, that won't be a
problem. What will be a problem is getting Windows 9/10 drivers for the
interface, or getting Windows 8/7/XP drivers for the computer to downgrade
the OS.


But my reply was to the suggestion it would be cheaper to buy a seperate
interface and converter so only one would have to change when standards
do.

But remember that there's an interface on both ends - one to the A/D
converter and the other to the computer. When either one becomes obsolete
or unreplaceabel, your system is dead.

Exactly, whether they are in one box or two.


I'm still unconvinced at this point in time. And unlike firewire, I'm
betting on USB ports for a while longer at least.

But USB isn't just one thing. There are some bumps in the road with
today's USB audio devices that won't work with new computers have have
only USB3 ports. Some manufacturers will straighten that out with a driver
update in a year or so, but others will simply discontinue that product
(and support) and sell you a new one.

Yes, driver support has always been as big an issue as the hardware itself.


I don't know what to make of Firewire (or the audio industry that uses
it). The only way you can get a Firewire port on a computer today is to
buy one of a few Macs or get one that's new enough to have a Thunderbolt
port, and then get a Thunderbolt-Firewire adapter (which seems to work).
Most audio interfaces that used Firewire used FW400, but the new Macs are
800, PreSonus' new consoles will have Firewire 800 (the present ones have
400) which means anyone like me keeping PCs alive with Firewire 400 cards
won't be able to use one.

Why on earth do they want to use FW800 when FW400 is sufficient for the job
and compatible with FW800, while not the reverse?
Of course the real question is why would they want to use Firewire at all
now it is becoming more rare. The MOTU idea of combo FW and USB seems more
logical to me at least.


I think that if you're ready to bet on the future now, you'd best start
looking into Ethernet connectivity. That's a port that, if dropped by the
industry suddenly, would probably grind the whole world to a halt.

Perhaps, but that will be up to the manufacturers to provide the interfaces
first. It's slowly going that way it seems.


And if you aren't interested in betting on the future, then like me, stay
in the pasture for another generation of equipment.

Right, don't need to upgrade mine at the moment anyway. But the problem
never goes away, you just have to face built in obsolesence with all
computer equipment. It's been that way since my first in 1980 and will
probably be that way long after I'm dead.

Trevor.

[Neil Gould]

Trevor wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
And if you aren't interested in betting on the future, then like me,
stay in the pasture for another generation of equipment.

Right, don't need to upgrade mine at the moment anyway. But the
problem never goes away, you just have to face built in obsolesence
with all computer equipment. It's been that way since my first in
1980 and will probably be that way long after I'm dead.

IMO, we've lost perspective. What one paid in the 70's for an 8-channel
recorder with audio quality equal to today's DAW/interface combinations
would buy generations of complete system replacements into the foreseable
future. In the '60s an 8-channel mixer was extremely rare; I don't recall
seeing one in any studio I worked. The barrier to entry into pro-level audio
recording is no longer set by the cost of the recording equipment.
--
best regards,

Neil

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 4/28/2013 10:33 PM, Trevor wrote:

Right, they are already obsolete. Buying new hardware with that interface is
just plain silly.

But what choices do you have today if you need to buy something today?
Audio hardware development and computer hardware development are about
120 degrees out of phase.

(except for $10 stuff which you can throw away without a second thought)

It's all $10 stuff. Only problem is that some of it costs a few hundred $

Buy a USB interface to ADAT optical and in ten years nobody will be making
an 8-channel mic preamp with ADAT output.

I wouldn't bet on five let alone ten.

But if you buy a good mic preamp today, you won't need to buy another
one in five years. Are you suggesting that USB will become unavailable
in ten years? What you'll have to worry about is if you buy a new
computer in three years, the maker of your USB interface may not have a
USB3 driver. So the trick is not to worry about replacing your audio
hardware, but rather what happens when you replace your computer.

The audio business isn't big enough to respond instantly to changes in
computers. You may not have a USB3 driver. You may not have a Windows 9
driver. If you'r "$10 stuff" cost $250 (and other stuff proportionally)
then maybe the audio companies would have enough money to jump right on
to needed updates. Think Lynx, not M-Audio.

If USB4 follows USB3, USB2 and USB1 backward compatibility, that won't be a
problem.

But we've already discovered that the audio hardware is not fully
backward compatible.

What will be a problem is getting Windows 9/10 drivers for the
interface, or getting Windows 8/7/XP drivers for the computer to downgrade
the OS.

And here's another root of the problem. The computer industry doesn't
believe in sustaining working systems. If I want to set up a new
computer and run WinXP, I have to go to the "used" or black market in
order to get a copy to install. I can't go to my friendly local computer
store and buy a new, licensed copy of WinXP. Maybe I should buy a retail
copy of Win7 while I still can. Maybe you should, too.

Why on earth do they want to use FW800 when FW400 is sufficient for the job
and compatible with FW800, while not the reverse?

Probably because they (we're talking PreSonus StudioLive AI mixers)
expect that new customers will be buying a new MacBook Pro to go along
with it, and that has Firewire 800. Their next generation of hardware
will incorporate control as well as audio data

Of course the real question is why would they want to use Firewire at all
now it is becoming more rare. The MOTU idea of combo FW and USB seems more
logical to me at least.

PreSonus' choice for the next generation is Dante. The mixer includes a
one-computer license for the Dante Virtual Sound Card application that
allows a computer to recognize Dante-enabled audio devices that are
connected over a standard Ethernet network. For example, if you have
their AI speakers connected to the same network as the mixer, you'll not
only be able to get audio from the mixer to the speakers, but you'll be
able to adjust the DSP speaker management from the mixer (once the
mixer's firmware catches up). Focusrite has a whole line of
Dante-enabled boxes for audio production.

But Dante isn't the only game in town. While it's never been a problem
to connect between audio devices from diverse manufacturers using plain
old analog electricity, it'll be a while before you can connect
different brands of hardware over an Ethernet network

Right, don't need to upgrade mine at the moment anyway. But the problem
never goes away, you just have to face built in obsolesence with all
computer equipment. It's been that way since my first in 1980 and will
probably be that way long after I'm dead.

We're both saying the same thing here. If you're in a part of the
business where you need to have the latest toys, then you should be
getting paid enough to continue to upgrade and just take it as a matter
of course. This stuff isn't all that expensive. But for tinkerers like
me (and really that's where most of the audio equipment sold today goes,
it's not only a pain in the butt to keep up, but a financial drain on
our non- or low-profit projects as well. Best advice is to assemble a
system that works, and stick with it, and with projects within its
capabilities.


--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Trevor]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 4/28/2013 10:33 PM, Trevor wrote:
Right, they are already obsolete. Buying new hardware with that interface
is
just plain silly.

But what choices do you have today if you need to buy something today?

Well USB is a better option at the moment IMO.

(except for $10 stuff which you can throw away without a second thought)

It's all $10 stuff. Only problem is that some of it costs a few hundred $

Some many hundreds, or even thousands. But that's the cost I was talking
about, not the chip prices.

Buy a USB interface to ADAT optical and in ten years nobody will be
making
an 8-channel mic preamp with ADAT output.

I wouldn't bet on five let alone ten.

But if you buy a good mic preamp today, you won't need to buy another one
in five years. Are you suggesting that USB will become unavailable in ten
years? What you'll have to worry about is if you buy a new computer in
three years, the maker of your USB interface may not have a USB3 driver.

Not so worried about a USB3 driver, would be worried about a Windows 9/10
driver not being available.


So the trick is not to worry about replacing your audio hardware, but
rather what happens when you replace your computer.

That's when you need to replace your audio hardware. Hopefully it will keep
working with your current computer for as long as it does. Even if some new
software doesn't, your current stuff will.


The audio business isn't big enough to respond instantly to changes in
computers. You may not have a USB3 driver. You may not have a Windows 9
driver. If you'r "$10 stuff" cost $250 (and other stuff proportionally)
then maybe the audio companies would have enough money to jump right on to
needed updates. Think Lynx, not M-Audio.

Have a problem with my FW only MOTU already, and that was $1k plus :-(


If USB4 follows USB3, USB2 and USB1 backward compatibility, that won't be
a
problem.

But we've already discovered that the audio hardware is not fully backward
compatible.

What will be a problem is getting Windows 9/10 drivers for the
interface, or getting Windows 8/7/XP drivers for the computer to
downgrade
the OS.

And here's another root of the problem. The computer industry doesn't
believe in sustaining working systems. If I want to set up a new computer
and run WinXP, I have to go to the "used" or black market in order to get
a copy to install. I can't go to my friendly local computer store and buy
a new, licensed copy of WinXP. Maybe I should buy a retail copy of Win7
while I still can. Maybe you should, too.

You can transfer the license, but getting drivers for new hardware for old
OS's is going to stop it working anyway.


Why on earth do they want to use FW800 when FW400 is sufficient for the
job
and compatible with FW800, while not the reverse?

Probably because they (we're talking PreSonus StudioLive AI mixers) expect
that new customers will be buying a new MacBook Pro to go along with it,
and that has Firewire 800. Their next generation of hardware will
incorporate control as well as audio data

And will that overload FW400 thus making backward compatibilty impossible. I
doubt it.


Of course the real question is why would they want to use Firewire at all
now it is becoming more rare. The MOTU idea of combo FW and USB seems
more
logical to me at least.

PreSonus' choice for the next generation is Dante. The mixer includes a
one-computer license for the Dante Virtual Sound Card application that
allows a computer to recognize Dante-enabled audio devices that are
connected over a standard Ethernet network. For example, if you have their
AI speakers connected to the same network as the mixer, you'll not only be
able to get audio from the mixer to the speakers, but you'll be able to
adjust the DSP speaker management from the mixer (once the mixer's
firmware catches up). Focusrite has a whole line of Dante-enabled boxes
for audio production.

But Dante isn't the only game in town. While it's never been a problem to
connect between audio devices from diverse manufacturers using plain old
analog electricity, it'll be a while before you can connect different
brands of hardware over an Ethernet network

Exactly, and there's the rub. Let's hope a standard evolves before an
ethernet replacement happens.


Right, don't need to upgrade mine at the moment anyway. But the problem
never goes away, you just have to face built in obsolesence with all
computer equipment. It's been that way since my first in 1980 and will
probably be that way long after I'm dead.

We're both saying the same thing here. If you're in a part of the business
where you need to have the latest toys, then you should be getting paid
enough to continue to upgrade and just take it as a matter of course. This
stuff isn't all that expensive. But for tinkerers like me (and really
that's where most of the audio equipment sold today goes, it's not only a
pain in the butt to keep up, but a financial drain on our non- or
low-profit projects as well. Best advice is to assemble a system that
works, and stick with it, and with projects within its capabilities.

No argument there. The problem is it gets expensive when your computer can't
be fixed and you have to replace your audio hardware as well :-(

Trevor.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 4/29/2013 4:41 PM, Trevor wrote:

Have a problem with my FW only MOTU already, and that was $1k plus :-(

My Mackie 1200F is a great product, and I expect to be able to keep a
computer running WinXP for quite some time yet. It may not be the same
computer, but XP has worked through three generations of computers here
already so I guess it isn't all that fussy. I won't be able to run Pro
Tools on it, but then I don't have, nor anticipate in the future, a real
need to do that.

. . . new customers will be buying a new MacBook Pro to go along with it,
and that has Firewire 800. Their next generation of hardware will
incorporate control as well as audio data

And will that overload FW400 thus making backward compatibilty impossible. I
doubt it

I doubt it, too, as far as audio. But users and tech support people get
a little uneasy when they have to connect two flavors of an interface.
You'd probably be surprised at how much it costs to tell a customer "You
need to get this special cable." And of course everyone knows that
Firewire 800 is faster, so it MUST be better. That makes the marketing
department happy.
..
No argument there. The problem is it gets expensive when your computer can't
be fixed and you have to replace your audio hardware as well :-(

And it especially hurts when you don't realize until after you've bought
the new computer that your old audio hardware is incompatible.



--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Trevor]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 4/29/2013 4:41 PM, Trevor wrote:
Have a problem with my FW only MOTU already, and that was $1k plus :-(

My Mackie 1200F is a great product, and I expect to be able to keep a
computer running WinXP for quite some time yet. It may not be the same
computer, but XP has worked through three generations of computers here
already so I guess it isn't all that fussy. I won't be able to run Pro
Tools on it, but then I don't have, nor anticipate in the future, a real
need to do that.

Good luck finding a new Windows laptop with Firewire though, (or even
finding XP drivers in most cases). So what you are forced to do at the
moment is hope your old one doesn't break down, can be fixed, or you can
find a S/H one that does the job.
Or junk a perfectly good interface and buy a new one :-(


. . . new customers will be buying a new MacBook Pro to go along with
it,
and that has Firewire 800. Their next generation of hardware will
incorporate control as well as audio data

And will that overload FW400 thus making backward compatibilty
impossible. I
doubt it

I doubt it, too, as far as audio. But users and tech support people get a
little uneasy when they have to connect two flavors of an interface. You'd
probably be surprised at how much it costs to tell a customer "You need to
get this special cable." And of course everyone knows that Firewire 800 is
faster, so it MUST be better. That makes the marketing department happy.

And of course hoping to sell you a new unit instead of you using the old one
makes them happy too.


No argument there. The problem is it gets expensive when your computer
can't
be fixed and you have to replace your audio hardware as well :-(

And it especially hurts when you don't realize until after you've bought
the new computer that your old audio hardware is incompatible.

At least that hardly ever happens to me, I've been in the game long enough
to check everything before making any purchasing decisions.

Trevor.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 4/29/2013 7:23 PM, Trevor wrote:

Good luck finding a new Windows laptop with Firewire though

I don't even have an old Windows laptop with Firewire, but I have one
with a CardBus slot, and a Firewire adapter. But they don't even make
laptops with those slots or the one that replaced it (ExpressCard) any
more. But then why limit your choice to a laptop just because everyone
else seems to nowadays.

If I want a portable multiple recording setup, I'll take my Mackie
HDR24/96 and leave the computer at home. And for working in the studio,
I'd just as soon use the monitor, mouse, and keyboard of my choice and
not pay for the ones on a laptop that I'm not going to use.

So what you are forced to do at the
moment is hope your old one doesn't break down, can be fixed, or you can
find a S/H one that does the job.

You've lost me here. What's an S/H? I think it's going to be a while
before they build a motherboard that XP won't run on, so I can keep a
computer that will work with the discontinued interface and its drivers.
Of course everything breaks eventually, but it's easier to repair,
rebuild, or replace a computer than a multichannel audio interface. If
the 1200F hardware quit working, that would be the time to junk it. Just
for the sake of being able to do it I'd like to use the 1200F with Pro
Tools but that's not going to happen because of the lack of a Win7
driver for it. So I'll just have to use the Mackie 1640i and get 16x16
channels in and out . . . for a while anyway until Mackie discontinues
support for it. I'm not sure they have a Win8 driver yet.

And of course hoping to sell you a new unit instead of you using the old one
makes them happy too.

That's' part of the business model. Some people will buy a new model
from the company because their old one worked so well. Others will swear
that they'll never buy another piece of gear from that company because
support for their old unit has been abandoned.


--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Neil Gould]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 4/29/2013 7:23 PM, Trevor wrote:

Good luck finding a new Windows laptop with Firewire though

I don't even have an old Windows laptop with Firewire, but I have one
with a CardBus slot, and a Firewire adapter. But they don't even make
laptops with those slots or the one that replaced it (ExpressCard) any
more. But then why limit your choice to a laptop just because everyone
else seems to nowadays.

If I want a portable multiple recording setup, I'll take my Mackie
HDR24/96 and leave the computer at home. And for working in the
studio, I'd just as soon use the monitor, mouse, and keyboard of my
choice and not pay for the ones on a laptop that I'm not going to use.

So what you are forced to do at the
moment is hope your old one doesn't break down, can be fixed, or you
can find a S/H one that does the job.

You've lost me here. What's an S/H?

"Second-hand"?

--
best regards,

Neil

[Trevor]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 4/29/2013 7:23 PM, Trevor wrote:
Good luck finding a new Windows laptop with Firewire though

I don't even have an old Windows laptop with Firewire, but I have one with
a CardBus slot, and a Firewire adapter. But they don't even make laptops
with those slots or the one that replaced it (ExpressCard) any more.

Exactly. I bought my last laptop with an express card slot for that reason,
even if it's just a backup to my Samsung that has built in firewire 6P that
works faultlessly, unlike many others. That's why I chose it of course.


But then why limit your choice to a laptop just because everyone else seems
to nowadays.

Because I need one for recording concerts. In the studio I can use both PCI
and firewire, and USB of course.


If I want a portable multiple recording setup, I'll take my Mackie
HDR24/96 and leave the computer at home.

Your choice. I chose a laptop and MOTU interfaces and have been extremely
happy with the hundreds of live recordings so far.


And for working in the studio, I'd just as soon use the monitor, mouse, and
keyboard of my choice and not pay for the ones on a laptop that I'm not
going to use.

I never use a laptop in the studio either, have far more power in my
desktops.


So what you are forced to do at the
moment is hope your old one doesn't break down, can be fixed, or you can
find a S/H one that does the job.

You've lost me here. What's an S/H?

Sorry, Second Hand, i.e. used, not new.

I think it's going to be a while before they build a motherboard that XP
won't run on,

They already build some with no XP driver support, it will become
increasingly common as time goes by :-(


so I can keep a computer that will work with the discontinued interface and
its drivers. Of course everything breaks eventually, but it's easier to
repair, rebuild, or replace a computer than a multichannel audio interface.

Back to where we started, laptops are not so easy to repair when there is a
mainboard fault! And replacement boards are not always available (and
usually outrageously priced when they are). Hell even desktop motherboards
are not available for most older CPU's, you may have to replace the
motherboard, CPU, RAM and possibly I/O cards if an old computer breaks down,
and then it's the same as buying a new one with the same driver problems! At
least you have more chance of finding a suitable used one though,


And of course hoping to sell you a new unit instead of you using the old
one
makes them happy too.

That's' part of the business model. Some people will buy a new model from
the company because their old one worked so well. Others will swear that
they'll never buy another piece of gear from that company because support
for their old unit has been abandoned.

Right, I make that decision on just how long their support actually lasted
and how good it was. No expensive item is worth it if the performance *and*
support are not both satisfactory IMO. Of course if you never need any
support over a reasonable lifetime, I probably consider that acceptable as
well ;-)

Trevor.