[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 8/24/2012 11:18 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:36:33 AM UTC-4, adam79 wrote:
On 8/23/12 6:04 AM, .com wrote:

Next time they record: http://heilsound.com/pro/products/pr.php Allegedly the highest rejection of any dynamic in history.

Those mics seem cool. Do you own any? Have any favorites?

Don't own any Heils. Just heard about them in a podcast. And if this http://www.amazon.com/Double-Exposur...t_mus_ep_dpi_1 sounds good in an Amazon demo, imagine how it sounds CD in player!

Did you just happen to see all of the Heil mics in this video, or did you see
some press on it somewhere? I'm a big fan of Heil mics as solutions for leakage
problems.

[[email protected]]

mcp6543:

What video?

[John Williamson]

wrote:
mcp6543:

What video?

I suspect he means the promotional video below the track listing on the
page linked to.

http://www.amazon.com/Double-Exposur...t_mus_ep_dpi_1

Scroll down past the track listing.

Mind you, the preview mp3s on the track listing are such low bandwidth,
I'd hope they're not representative of the CD or mp3 download quality.
I'd certainly not buy the mp3 verions if they're of that quality.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Trevor]

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
How do you get vocal bleed into the drums? I want to work with that band.

Well it's possible if the drummer is the singer, but you will spend FAR more
time worrying about the bleed of drums into the vocal if you cant overdub
the vocals, as in live recordings.
Of course time alignment is not really much of an issue then, but getting a
decent vocal balance can be.

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
That said, I saw Johnny Pacheco perform a few years ago. They gave him
two JBL monitors, each with two 15" drivers and a horn, one on either side
of the piano bench. Then they gave the band one. His piano was miked
with
414s inside, closed up, and then wrapped with packing blankets to keep the
monitor bleed from feeding back. The house PA guy shut the mains down
because
it was just too loud in the hall from the stage monitors.

Yep I really hate that, the FOH sounds like **** when all you get is monitor
sound reflected off the back wall. IEM's are a much better solution for deaf
singers.


No time-alignment help here, because the program source is *also* the
bleed source,
just from another direction. Now you're pretty much down to very careful
(and often
automated) EQ.

What's worse is when you have the monitors, then the slapback from the
rear
wall reflecting the monitors, then the slapback from the ceiling
reflecting
the monitors. It's festival season and I'm working in a lot of tents and
I
can say there are few things acoustically worse.

At least in tents the reflected sound is pretty minimal, any stage with a
hard wall behind (and/or overhead) is going to be "acoustically worse".

Trevor.

[Luxey]

петак, 24. авгу�т 2012. 15.35.41 UTC+2, Frank Stearns је напи�ао/ла:
(Don Pearce) writes:
Fortunately, with a half-way decent room and microphones at roughly equal gain,

equal-volume cross bleed shouldn't be a huge issue -- at least not like it is with

rock drums dumping into the harp or violin channels!

How about room 4.5m x 4m x 2.5-3m arched ceiling,
drums,
female vocal + flute,
Guitar el.+ acc with pick up and amp,
acc bass with pick up and amp,
saxophone.

Talking about bleed! In the end it sounded rather nice, but vocals wenre out of tune. On session vocals sounded way better.
It happens often. You attend soething, it sounds good, than you listen to reording, which is also good, in itself, but you realise performance was realy slopy and ask yourself if that was the same event?

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

Trevor wrote:

[...]
At least in tents the reflected sound is pretty minimal, any stage with a
hard wall behind (and/or overhead) is going to be "acoustically worse".

Have you ever tried to do P.A. in a tent?

Rectangular canvas-walled ones can be difficult; rectangular
plastic-walled ones are almost impossible unless the loudspeakers can be
'flown' so that the sound comes down from above.

As for plastic-walled circular tents ...the less said, the better.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Mike Rivers]

On 8/24/2012 9:46 AM, Frank Stearns wrote:

Just to make it really interesting, how about the bands who want to record with
the PA, with the lead vox now up there with the drum level?

I suppose a drummer might want to hear the vocalist in his
monitor, which would probably be loud enough to leak into
drum mics. There are lots of ways to do this wrong.



--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Mike Rivers]

On 8/24/2012 6:20 PM, Trevor wrote:

Well it's possible if the drummer is the singer, but you will spend FAR more
time worrying about the bleed of drums into the vocal if you cant overdub
the vocals, as in live recordings.

There seems to be a law that the lead singer needs to be
front and center. This makes sense. But there seems to be a
common practice, though not a law, that drummers set up in
the center which is usually directly behind the singer. Why
don't the drummers move off to one side or the other? The
audience can probably see them better that way, too (or
maybe that's the problem) .


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Scott Dorsey]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Trevor wrote:

[...]
At least in tents the reflected sound is pretty minimal, any stage with a
hard wall behind (and/or overhead) is going to be "acoustically worse".

Have you ever tried to do P.A. in a tent?

Rectangular canvas-walled ones can be difficult; rectangular
plastic-walled ones are almost impossible unless the loudspeakers can be
'flown' so that the sound comes down from above.

Precisely. And yes, there is a canvas rear flap, so you have godawful
slap echo coming right off the monitors, combined with the flutter
echoes from the roof.

As for plastic-walled circular tents ...the less said, the better.

$250 will purchase you a set of fibreglass banners you can hang which
helps things a lot.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Trevor]

"Adrian Tuddenham" wrote in message
alid.invalid...
Trevor wrote:
[...]
At least in tents the reflected sound is pretty minimal, any stage with a
hard wall behind (and/or overhead) is going to be "acoustically worse".

Have you ever tried to do P.A. in a tent?

Yes.

Rectangular canvas-walled ones can be difficult; rectangular
plastic-walled ones are almost impossible unless the loudspeakers can be
'flown' so that the sound comes down from above.


Agreed plastic walled ones are worse than canvas, but any hard wall
construction of the same size & shape will be even worse over most of the
frequency range.


As for plastic-walled circular tents ...the less said, the better.

Never worked in one of those, I guess I should be glad then :-)

Trevor.

[hank alrich]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

Trevor wrote:

[...]
At least in tents the reflected sound is pretty minimal, any stage with a
hard wall behind (and/or overhead) is going to be "acoustically worse".

Have you ever tried to do P.A. in a tent?

Rectangular canvas-walled ones can be difficult; rectangular
plastic-walled ones are almost impossible unless the loudspeakers can be
'flown' so that the sound comes down from above.

As for plastic-walled circular tents ...the less said, the better.

Thank you, Adrian. Tents are an acoustical nightmare in my experience.
Good for a circus, though.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

Trevor wrote:

"Adrian Tuddenham" wrote in message
alid.invalid...
Trevor wrote:
[...]
At least in tents the reflected sound is pretty minimal, any stage with a
hard wall behind (and/or overhead) is going to be "acoustically worse".

Have you ever tried to do P.A. in a tent?

Yes.

Rectangular canvas-walled ones can be difficult; rectangular
plastic-walled ones are almost impossible unless the loudspeakers can be
'flown' so that the sound comes down from above.


Agreed plastic walled ones are worse than canvas, but any hard wall
construction of the same size & shape will be even worse over most of the
frequency range.

The frequency-selective reflection of plastic is part of the problem, it
makes balancing the sound a complete nightmare. A room with similar
reflectivity over the whole frequency range would be better balanced but
equally difficult in other ways for sound.

It has just occurred to me that a tent is usually pitched on grass,
which is a good sound absorber compared with the floor of a room.
Perhaps the lack of vertical dispersion in a tent is part of the reason
the 'slap' echos and horizontal standing waves sound so much more
prominent?

As for plastic-walled circular tents ...the less said, the better.

Never worked in one of those, I guess I should be glad then :-)

Most definitely!

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[geoff]

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

Trevor wrote:

[...]
At least in tents the reflected sound is pretty minimal, any stage with
a
hard wall behind (and/or overhead) is going to be "acoustically worse".

Have you ever tried to do P.A. in a tent?

Rectangular canvas-walled ones can be difficult; rectangular
plastic-walled ones are almost impossible unless the loudspeakers can be
'flown' so that the sound comes down from above.

As for plastic-walled circular tents ...the less said, the better.

Thank you, Adrian. Tents are an acoustical nightmare in my experience.
Good for a circus, though.

"Fwap" is the sound that springs to mind...

geoff

[hank alrich]

geoff wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message
...
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

Trevor wrote:

[...]
At least in tents the reflected sound is pretty minimal, any stage with
a
hard wall behind (and/or overhead) is going to be "acoustically worse".

Have you ever tried to do P.A. in a tent?

Rectangular canvas-walled ones can be difficult; rectangular
plastic-walled ones are almost impossible unless the loudspeakers can be
'flown' so that the sound comes down from above.

As for plastic-walled circular tents ...the less said, the better.

Thank you, Adrian. Tents are an acoustical nightmare in my experience.
Good for a circus, though.

"Fwap" is the sound that springs to mind...

geoff

G!

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Trevor]

"Adrian Tuddenham" wrote in message
valid.invalid...
Agreed plastic walled ones are worse than canvas, but any hard wall
construction of the same size & shape will be even worse over most of the
frequency range.

The frequency-selective reflection of plastic is part of the problem, it
makes balancing the sound a complete nightmare. A room with similar
reflectivity over the whole frequency range would be better balanced but
equally difficult in other ways for sound.

I usually find it easier to fix the narrow band problems with a parametric
eq than the multiple wide band peaks in many hard wall rooms. YMMV of
course.


It has just occurred to me that a tent is usually pitched on grass,
which is a good sound absorber compared with the floor of a room.

Yep, that helps, especially compared to a wooden or concrete floor!


Perhaps the lack of vertical dispersion in a tent

???

is part of the reason
the 'slap' echos and horizontal standing waves sound so much more
prominent?

Not IME. Must be some weird tents over there :-)

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"geoff" wrote in message
...
Thank you, Adrian. Tents are an acoustical nightmare in my experience.
Good for a circus, though.

"Fwap" is the sound that springs to mind...


That's the wind blowing the loose tent material, an entirely different
problem :-)

Trevor.

[Scott Dorsey]

In article , Trevor wrote:

I usually find it easier to fix the narrow band problems with a parametric
eq than the multiple wide band peaks in many hard wall rooms. YMMV of
course.

It doesn't actually fix them, though. It keeps the PA system from feeding
back, but it still sounds like you're in a tent. If you're recording at the
same time, your recording still sonds like it's in a tent.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Trevor]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor
wrote:

I usually find it easier to fix the narrow band problems with a parametric
eq than the multiple wide band peaks in many hard wall rooms. YMMV of
course.

It doesn't actually fix them, though. It keeps the PA system from feeding
back, but it still sounds like you're in a tent. If you're recording at
the
same time, your recording still sonds like it's in a tent.

Yep, but still better than many rooms/halls I've had to work in. I blame the
governments/councils for not usually letting us use the big taxpayer funded
concert halls for pop/rock/folk etc. music festivals :-) Or should that be
:-(
For example, big indoor concerts here are usually played at the retractable
roof sports centre, while the big concert hall across the road is often
empty. Still it was even worse when the common venue was a huge "tin shed".
You'd be hard pressed to find any tent worse than that!!! But the Beatles
played there, fortunately no one could hear the music anyway, so it didn't
matter much.

And then there are also real concert halls that sound like crap, but that's
another issue!

Trevor.