[Nate Najar]

has me thinking about this little recording I want to do.

classical guitar and upright bass playing jazz. no drums. just a duo.

I have pretty good technique on the guitar and can put out quite a sound, but the fiddle still can overwhelm the guitar unless I'm playing near the top of my dynamic range.

there are a few ways to record this setup, but I'm not sure what would make the most sense, aesthetically.

I could do a main pair in ortf and then spot the two instruments. that would give a natural stereo image of two people playing "in front of you in a room".

or I could mic the instruments in a real multitrack type scenario. If I did this I would be inclined to use 2 mics on each instrument. I like the schoeps on the guitar in a non-stereo pair.... one sort of near the fingerboard and one sort of near the bridge. on the fiddle I like a dynamic like an re20 or 421 near the fhole and a schoeps near the fingerboard.

if i did this last scenario.... what would be a decent panning scheme? I don't want to hard pan them, even though I like that sound, because it's an old fashioned sound that doesn't work in most listening environments. guitar wide panned LR and bass in the middle? 10 and 2? something else?

I suppose I could also just use a single schoeps on each instrument and slightly pan them apart and just do a 2 channel recording.....

obviously all these scenarios work, I'm interested in opinions as to what should sound the best or work the best in context.

I am also not sure in what room I would do this. I could do it in a proper studio, on the stage in a beautiful (and quite ambient) 800 seat hall or in a living room.

what do you all think?

thanks!

N

[Gary Eickmeier]

Nate -

The macro situation is that you will find (my favorite saying) that "it
ain't a recording until it gets played back." What I mean by this is it is
hard to tell what the final result will sound like until you try something
and hear it played back on a few systems. You may be monitoring on
headphones, love it, and then play it on speakers and not like it so much.

IMHO, what you want is a pair of instruments playing at a normal position
scheme in the playback room in front of you, not at the channel extremes
like an early Beatles record, but somewhat between the speakers and with
some separation. Beyond that, you want some natural reverb going to the
front and side walls as a natural sounding acoustical bed behind them. Hope
no disagreement so far.

Easiest and best way to record this ambient bed would be any technique that
relies on good origianl sound, i.e. make the recording in a good acoustical
space. Record both the musicians and the ambience with any of the accepted
techniques such as Blumlein, spaced omni, M/S, ORT-F so that the angle of
coverage "takes in" both the direct sound and the early and a little of the
late reflected sound around them.

This may be enough, but if you want to spot them as well, maybe to balance
them closer to how they sounded to you live, then fine, but don't mix that
in full steam and monitor it on speakers when you make the final decisions.

OK, all of that from an "amateur" recordist so far, but an avid audio
theorist. Interested to hear what the group has to add or change about that.

Gary Eickmeier

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

[...]
IMHO, what you want is a pair of instruments playing at a normal position
scheme in the playback room in front of you, not at the channel extremes
like an early Beatles record, but somewhat between the speakers and with
some separation. Beyond that, you want some natural reverb going to the
front and side walls as a natural sounding acoustical bed behind them. Hope
no disagreement so far.

Easiest and best way to record this ambient bed would be any technique that
relies on good origianl sound, i.e. make the recording in a good acoustical
space. Record both the musicians and the ambience with any of the accepted
techniques such as Blumlein, spaced omni, M/S, ORT-F so that the angle of
coverage "takes in" both the direct sound and the early and a little of the
late reflected sound around them.
[...]
OK, all of that from an "amateur" recordist so far, but an avid audio
theorist. Interested to hear what the group has to add or change about that.

I totally agree.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[hank alrich]

Nate Najar wrote:

has me thinking about this little recording I want to do.

classical guitar and upright bass playing jazz. no drums. just a duo.

I have pretty good technique on the guitar and can put out quite a sound,
but the fiddle still can overwhelm the guitar unless I'm playing near the
top of my dynamic range.

there are a few ways to record this setup, but I'm not sure what would
make the most sense, aesthetically.

The very first thing I would do is get the ensemble in balance. Surely
the bass player has a "setting" other than eleven... g

Seriously, get the upright turned down right at the player's hands.

I could do a main pair in ortf and then spot the two instruments. that
would give a natural stereo image of two people playing "in front of you
in a room".

or I could mic the instruments in a real multitrack type scenario. If I
did this I would be inclined to use 2 mics on each instrument. I like
the schoeps on the guitar in a non-stereo pair.... one sort of near the
fingerboard and one sort of near the bridge. on the fiddle I like a
dynamic like an re20 or 421 near the fhole and a schoeps near the
fingerboard.

if i did this last scenario.... what would be a decent panning scheme? I
don't want to hard pan them, even though I like that sound, because it's
an old fashioned sound that doesn't work in most listening environments.
guitar wide panned LR and bass in the middle? 10 and 2? something else?

I would use an X/Y or ORTF pair. If I got those nearly optimally placed
I wouldn't need spot mics.

I suppose I could also just use a single schoeps on each instrument and
slightly pan them apart and just do a 2 channel recording.....

obviously all these scenarios work, I'm interested in opinions as to what
should sound the best or work the best in context.

I am also not sure in what room I would do this. I could do it in a
proper studio, on the stage in a beautiful (and quite ambient) 800 seat
hall or in a living room.

what do you all think?

In which setting does ensemble more closely come into balance? The
concert hall offers free and real reverberation. Mic placement would
allow seasoning to taste.

thanks!

N


--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

IMHO, what you want is a pair of instruments playing at a normal position
scheme in the playback room in front of you, not at the channel extremes
like an early Beatles record, but somewhat between the speakers and with
some separation.

Those Beatles "stereo" offering were afterthoughts suffering from
unintended consequences. The intitial tracking assumed mono release.

At least it's easy to hear the drums is one wishes to study the parts.
g

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[PStamler]

On May 28, 1:52*pm, "Soundhaspriority" wrote:
"hank alrich" wrote in message

... Nate Najar wrote:

[snip]

I would use an X/Y or ORTF pair. If I got those nearly optimally placed
I wouldn't need spot mics.

I concur. I'd place spots in case doctoring was required, but hope to throw
them away.

I agree. If you do that, let me suggest an alternative place for
miking the bass: not near the f-hole, but up on the shoulder of the
instrument, on the side away from the player. With a good-quality
condenser mic, I've gotten some of my best double-bass spot-miked
recordings that way. It helps if the mic has just a little bump in the
highs, say around 8-10kHz, just a dB or two -- brings out the
woodiness of the instrument. I've used an M930 for this, and a U 87,
also an oddball mic from Groove Tubes, the AM51. Watch out for
coloration of room sound and leakage, though.

Peace,
Paul

[hank alrich]

PStamler wrote:

On May 28, 1:52 pm, "Soundhaspriority" wrote:
"hank alrich" wrote in message

...
Nate Najar wrote:

[snip]

I would use an X/Y or ORTF pair. If I got those nearly optimally placed
I wouldn't need spot mics.

I concur. I'd place spots in case doctoring was required, but hope to throw
them away.

I agree. If you do that, let me suggest an alternative place for
miking the bass: not near the f-hole, but up on the shoulder of the
instrument, on the side away from the player. With a good-quality
condenser mic, I've gotten some of my best double-bass spot-miked
recordings that way. It helps if the mic has just a little bump in the
highs, say around 8-10kHz, just a dB or two -- brings out the
woodiness of the instrument. I've used an M930 for this, and a U 87,
also an oddball mic from Groove Tubes, the AM51. Watch out for
coloration of room sound and leakage, though.

I never mic an upright at an F-hole. IME response there is uneven
compared to many other placement options.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Nate Najar]

On Monday, May 28, 2012 8:30:08 PM UTC-4, hank alrich wrote:
PStamler
wrote:

On May 28, 1:52 pm, "Soundhaspriority" wrote:
"hank alrich" wrote in message

...
Nate Najar wrote:

[snip]

I would use an X/Y or ORTF pair. If I got those nearly optimally placed
I wouldn't need spot mics.

I concur. I'd place spots in case doctoring was required, but hope to throw
them away.

I agree. If you do that, let me suggest an alternative place for
miking the bass: not near the f-hole, but up on the shoulder of the
instrument, on the side away from the player. With a good-quality
condenser mic, I've gotten some of my best double-bass spot-miked
recordings that way. It helps if the mic has just a little bump in the
highs, say around 8-10kHz, just a dB or two -- brings out the
woodiness of the instrument. I've used an M930 for this, and a U 87,
also an oddball mic from Groove Tubes, the AM51. Watch out for
coloration of room sound and leakage, though.

I never mic an upright at an F-hole. IME response there is uneven
compared to many other placement options.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri



On Monday, May 28, 2012 8:30:08 PM UTC-4, hank alrich wrote:
PStamler
wrote:

On May 28, 1:52 pm, "Soundhaspriority" wrote:
"hank alrich" wrote in message

...
Nate Najar wrote:

[snip]

I would use an X/Y or ORTF pair. If I got those nearly optimally placed
I wouldn't need spot mics.

I concur. I'd place spots in case doctoring was required, but hope to throw
them away.

I agree. If you do that, let me suggest an alternative place for
miking the bass: not near the f-hole, but up on the shoulder of the
instrument, on the side away from the player. With a good-quality
condenser mic, I've gotten some of my best double-bass spot-miked
recordings that way. It helps if the mic has just a little bump in the
highs, say around 8-10kHz, just a dB or two -- brings out the
woodiness of the instrument. I've used an M930 for this, and a U 87,
also an oddball mic from Groove Tubes, the AM51. Watch out for
coloration of room sound and leakage, though.

I never mic an upright at an F-hole. IME response there is uneven
compared to many other placement options.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

just for low end.... I use the front mic more usually.....

[geoff]

Nate Najar wrote:
has me thinking about this little recording I want to do.

classical guitar and upright bass playing jazz. no drums. just a
duo.

I have pretty good technique on the guitar and can put out quite a
sound, but the fiddle still can overwhelm the guitar unless I'm
playing near the top of my dynamic range.

there are a few ways to record this setup, but I'm not sure what
would make the most sense, aesthetically.

I could do a main pair in ortf and then spot the two instruments.
that would give a natural stereo image of two people playing "in
front of you in a room".

I suppose I could also just use a single schoeps on each instrument
and slightly pan them apart and just do a 2 channel recording.....


And if recorded in a dryer environment, any artifically-applied reverb will
likely have stereo components, adding to the illusion.

geoff