[Dick Pierce[_2_]]

Audio Empire wrote:
LP? It's still flourishing

By whatever criteria one might use to come to
that conclusion, one could also say that Latin
is a flourishing language and the Eutruscans
are a flourishing people.

That's not to deny that there are peaople selling
and buying LPs, but it continuously amazes me how
one can take a product whose current sales are but
a small fraction of what they once were and call
that "flourishing."

--
+--------------------------------+
+ Dick Pierce |
+ Professional Audio Development |
+--------------------------------+

[Harry Lavo[_3_]]

"Dick Pierce" wrote in message
...
Audio Empire wrote:
LP? It's still flourishing

By whatever criteria one might use to come to
that conclusion, one could also say that Latin
is a flourishing language and the Eutruscans
are a flourishing people.

That's not to deny that there are peaople selling
and buying LPs, but it continuously amazes me how
one can take a product whose current sales are but
a small fraction of what they once were and call
that "flourishing."

--
+--------------------------------+
+ Dick Pierce |
+ Professional Audio Development |
+--------------------------------+


Fact of the matter is, I walked into a Best Buy for the first time in a few
months, and there on a rearranged shelf were three different brands of
turntables. Hardly a sign of dying interest.

[Dick Pierce[_2_]]

Harry Lavo wrote:
"Dick Pierce" wrote in message
...

Audio Empire wrote:

LP? It's still flourishing

By whatever criteria one might use to come to
that conclusion, one could also say that Latin
is a flourishing language and the Eutruscans
are a flourishing people.

That's not to deny that there are peaople selling
and buying LPs, but it continuously amazes me how
one can take a product whose current sales are but
a small fraction of what they once were and call
that "flourishing."


Fact of the matter is,

I'm not disputing your facts. I'm challenging the
conclusion.

I walked into a Best Buy for the first time in a few
months, and there on a rearranged shelf were three
different brands of turntables. Hardly a sign of
dying interest.

And 40 years ago, if I walked into any of 15 independent
stereo stores within 20 miles of downtown Boston, or any
Radio Shack, Lafayette Radio, Lechmere's, Sears, Montgomery
Wards, and MANY more, I'd see ten times that number of
brands.

Let's stick with your facts, Harry. Walk to the other
end of Best Buy. How many different labels of LPs do they
sell. Okay, let's make it easy: how many LP's do they
sell.

Let's keep sticking with your facts, Harry: how many of
those three brands of turntables at Best Buy would you
let within 10 feet of any of your LPs?

And still staying on those facts: how many of those
three brands of turntables at Best Buy would be considered
on par performance-wise with a typical mid-line turntable
carttridge setup from 35-40 years ago.

Let's, instead, jump to my facts. How many of those 15
independently owned stero stores still sell three or more
brands of turntables? Well, it's a trick question, because
not a single one of them still exists, most of them having
disappeared 10 or more years ago.

Well, okay, of the remaining chains I mentioned, how many
of them have 3 or more brands of tunrables available?
Oh, sorry, another trick question: many of them are gone,
also.

So, given that the population of the US, at least,
200,000,000 40 years ago and is over 300,000,00 now,
what, in FACT, has happened to the number of stores selling
turntables, the number of turntables available, the number
of new LPs being released, the number of new LPs available
and sold, per person 40 years ago vs today?

If you treat the facts honestly and without prejudice, how
can one say that "LPs are flousriching?"

And, Harry, I'm going to hold your feet to the fire of
facts, if you don't mind. I did not say LPs were dying,
nor did I say interesting in LPs were dying, no more
than the use of Latin or appreciation of Etruscan art
has vanished form the face of the earth. The notion
that "interest in LPs is dying" is YOUR invention and
are YOUR words, not mine. I would appreciate it if you
would no longer confuse your prejudices with my words,
rthanks you.

And the fact is, I have a very healthy LP collection
myself, which includeds many valuable and irreplacement
performances of music that simply isn't being recorded
or released on any medium today.

Those are the facts, Harry. And facts are different than
conclusions, as I'm sure you are aware.

--
+--------------------------------+
+ Dick Pierce |
+ Professional Audio Development |
+--------------------------------+

[Audio Empire]

On Wed, 2 Nov 2011 06:40:28 -0700, Dick Pierce wrote
(in article ):

Harry Lavo wrote:
"Dick Pierce" wrote in message
...

Audio Empire wrote:

LP? It's still flourishing

By whatever criteria one might use to come to
that conclusion, one could also say that Latin
is a flourishing language and the Eutruscans
are a flourishing people.

That's not to deny that there are peaople selling
and buying LPs, but it continuously amazes me how
one can take a product whose current sales are but
a small fraction of what they once were and call
that "flourishing."


Fact of the matter is,

I'm not disputing your facts. I'm challenging the
conclusion.

I walked into a Best Buy for the first time in a few
months, and there on a rearranged shelf were three
different brands of turntables. Hardly a sign of
dying interest.

And 40 years ago, if I walked into any of 15 independent
stereo stores within 20 miles of downtown Boston, or any
Radio Shack, Lafayette Radio, Lechmere's, Sears, Montgomery
Wards, and MANY more, I'd see ten times that number of
brands.

Forty years ago, vinyl was THE source of listener-owned music media. Today it
has to compete with a myriad of other viable music sources. That's a sign of
musical source diversity.

Let's stick with your facts, Harry. Walk to the other
end of Best Buy. How many different labels of LPs do they
sell. Okay, let's make it easy: how many LP's do they
sell.

They don't, but there are lots of stores that do sell LPs. New ones too.

Let's keep sticking with your facts, Harry: how many of
those three brands of turntables at Best Buy would you
let within 10 feet of any of your LPs?

All of the Pro-Ject models I saw at my Best Buy would be fine performers. I
don't know what you're getting at here

And still staying on those facts: how many of those
three brands of turntables at Best Buy would be considered
on par performance-wise with a typical mid-line turntable
carttridge setup from 35-40 years ago.

All of them. Project. Music Hall, and Rega all make fine performing
"high-end" turntables. There's no market for any other kind.

Let's, instead, jump to my facts. How many of those 15
independently owned stero stores still sell three or more
brands of turntables? Well, it's a trick question, because
not a single one of them still exists, most of them having
disappeared 10 or more years ago.

There is a store not 10 miles from me than sells NOTHING but new turntables
(dozens of brands all the way from $200 for a Chinese built belt drive unit
with a decent arm and a cartridge of unknown quality (sold by Music Hall) to
Walker Proscenium selling for more than $60,000.), new turntable accessories
and records.

Well, okay, of the remaining chains I mentioned, how many
of them have 3 or more brands of tunrables available?
Oh, sorry, another trick question: many of them are gone,
also.

But there are scores of new ones that have taken their place. The absolute
bottom tier is gone, that's true. There are no more cheap mass-market tables
from the likes of Pioneer, Yamaha, Panasonic etc., if that's what you mean.
But there are plenty more higher end tables from Japan, China, GB,and Europe
and even the good ol' USA!

So, given that the population of the US, at least,
200,000,000 40 years ago and is over 300,000,00 now,
what, in FACT, has happened to the number of stores selling
turntables, the number of turntables available, the number
of new LPs being released, the number of new LPs available
and sold, per person 40 years ago vs today?

Not a valid question. Vinyl is no longer the ONLY source of listener owned
music media as it was 40 years ago.


If you treat the facts honestly and without prejudice, how
can one say that "LPs are flousriching?"

Because, as a niche market, it is. If you insist that vinyl has to be the
dominate music source in the marketplace in order to be healthy and
flourishing, then we have no common ground to discuss this, because that is a
false requirement in my estimation. The sale of vinyl and the attendant
equipment to play it with is large enough to support the number of players in
that market, and the market segment is growing, not shrinking. That's the
criteria for a flourishing market, not some erstwhile market dominance from a
simpler age when the average music lover had little choice but to buy vinyl
because there was, essentially, nothing else.

And, Harry, I'm going to hold your feet to the fire of
facts, if you don't mind. I did not say LPs were dying,
nor did I say interesting in LPs were dying, no more
than the use of Latin or appreciation of Etruscan art
has vanished form the face of the earth. The notion
that "interest in LPs is dying" is YOUR invention and
are YOUR words, not mine. I would appreciate it if you
would no longer confuse your prejudices with my words,
rthanks you.

That might work with Harry, but not with me. I'm taking issue only with your
statement that LP is not flourishing by any criteria you know and your rather
weak attempts at backing that opinion up.

And the fact is, I have a very healthy LP collection
myself, which includeds many valuable and irreplacement
performances of music that simply isn't being recorded
or released on any medium today.

That's one reason to keep one's LP playing equipment up to date.

Those are the facts, Harry. And facts are different than
conclusions, as I'm sure you are aware.

Well, Dick, your "facts", as stated, seem to lack current market knowledge.
Statements like "...how many of those three brands of turntables at Best Buy
would you let within 10 feet of any of your LPs?" shows that you don't seem
to know that today's record decks, even the cheap ones are very good with
fine performing arms and low-friction bearings. So, with seemingly outdated
"facts" and some of the assumptions that you seem to have made, above,
you'll forgive me for taking your conclusions on this issue with a grain of
salt.

[bob]

On Nov 2, 7:22=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:

Forty years ago, vinyl was THE source of listener-owned music media. Toda=
y it
has to compete with a myriad of other viable music sources. That's a sign=
of
musical source diversity.

Let's not oversell this. The moment vinyl faced serious competition it
started losing market share. In the 80s, it was losing out not only to
CD, but also to cassettes, for heaven's sake. It was dead. It's now
back from the dead. That's something, but a 2% market share is nothing
to crow about.

snip

All of them. Project. Music Hall, and Rega all make fine performing
"high-end" turntables. There's no market for any other kind.

I wouldn't call them "fine performing." But certain know-nothing
reviewers have anointed them "high-end," and that's been enough.

snip

But there are scores of new ones that have taken their place. The absolut=
e
bottom tier is gone, that's true. There are no more cheap mass-market tab=
les
from the likes of Pioneer, Yamaha, Panasonic etc.,

Not those brands in particular, but the low end is still well-
represented. Last time I was in Best Buy (a while ago), the only thing
they carried was a sub-$100 Sony. It's still made, and has plenty of
competition.

Let's not forget that the only thing that kept vinyl alive in the 90s
AT ALL was the DJ market. (And they were not using the hamster-powered
belt drives of today's entry-level audiophile market.) The SL1200 is
out of production, but several copycats are still out there.

What's really missing today is the p-mount, which brought acceptable
and non-destructive reproduction to the masses.

bob

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article , bob
wrote:

On Nov 2, 7:22*pm, Audio Empire wrote:

Forty years ago, vinyl was THE source of listener-owned music media. Today
it
has to compete with a myriad of other viable music sources. That's a sign
of
musical source diversity.

Let's not oversell this. The moment vinyl faced serious competition it
started losing market share.

(Devil's advocate mode on...) The same can be said about CDs.

In the 80s, it was losing out not only to
CD, but also to cassettes, for heaven's sake.

CDs are losing out to lossy mp3s.

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com

[bob]

On Nov 3, 12:09=A0pm, Jenn wrote:
In article , bob
wrote:

Let's not oversell this. The moment vinyl faced serious competition it
started losing market share.

(Devil's advocate mode on...) =A0The same can be said about CDs.

Of course, and no one would describe the CD market today as
"flourishing." But it's still 50 times the size of the LP market, so
describing the latter that way seems a stretch.

I'd guess there are three main types of consumers interested in vinyl:

1. DJ/turntablists
2. The audiophile "vinyl sounds better" crowd (probably the smallest
of the three)
3. The retro hipster kids

#1 is partially shifting to digital. #2 will always be with us. #3 is
a fad, and fads don't last forever. So my guess is that vinyl will
plateau at some point, but not disappear.

CDs are losing out to lossy mp3s.

So is vinyl.

bob

[Audio Empire]

On Thu, 3 Nov 2011 09:09:21 -0700, Jenn wrote
(in article ):

In article , bob
wrote:

On Nov 2, 7:22*pm, Audio Empire wrote:

Forty years ago, vinyl was THE source of listener-owned music media. Today
it
has to compete with a myriad of other viable music sources. That's a sign
of
musical source diversity.

Let's not oversell this. The moment vinyl faced serious competition it
started losing market share.

(Devil's advocate mode on...) The same can be said about CDs.

In the 80s, it was losing out not only to
CD, but also to cassettes, for heaven's sake.

CDs are losing out to lossy mp3s.



Just another nail in the coffin of audio quality. With the hoi-polloi, it
looks as if convenience trumps quality every time.

[Audio Empire]

On Wed, 2 Nov 2011 19:49:26 -0700, bob wrote
(in article ):

On Nov 2, 7:22=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:

Forty years ago, vinyl was THE source of listener-owned music media. Today it
has to compete with a myriad of other viable music sources. That's a sign of
musical source diversity.

Let's not oversell this. The moment vinyl faced serious competition it
started losing market share. In the 80s, it was losing out not only to
CD, but also to cassettes, for heaven's sake. It was dead. It's now
back from the dead. That's something, but a 2% market share is nothing
to crow about.

It is certainly true that the compact cassette ate deeply into LP
sales starting in the mid-seventies, which just went to show that most
buyers valued convenience over performance (no matter what one thinks
of LP as a music source, I think most knowledgeable audio/music
enthusiasts would have to agree that decent vinyl performance is far
better than was Philips cassette performance - even WITH Dolby B and
HX Pro). I always found commercially available cassettes to sound
lousy. Even on a Nakamichi 1000, they had much more wow and flutter
than an LP, they were noisier than an LP and always sounded
compressed. In short, they were lousy.


snip

All of them. Project. Music Hall, and Rega all make fine performing
"high-end" turntables. There's no market for any other kind.

I wouldn't call them "fine performing." But certain know-nothing
reviewers have anointed them "high-end," and that's been enough.

They have low wow/flutter, the arms are low mass/low friction and
dynamically balanced, and they do a decent job of playing a record. Of
course they don't elicit the last word in resolution from one's vinyl
but they are better than any $89 direct-drive table from the 1980s.

snip

But there are scores of new ones that have taken their place. The absolute
bottom tier is gone, that's true. There are no more cheap mass-market tables
from the likes of Pioneer, Yamaha, Panasonic etc.,

Not those brands in particular, but the low end is still well-
represented. Last time I was in Best Buy (a while ago), the only thing
they carried was a sub-$100 Sony. It's still made, and has plenty of
competition.

Yes, it seems that cheap tables from Numark, Ion, and Sony are still
available, but I must say that I've never seen one in a store. Numark
tables show up from time-to-time in Music stores as "DJ equipment"
however.

Let's not forget that the only thing that kept vinyl alive in the 90s
AT ALL was the DJ market. (And they were not using the hamster-powered
belt drives of today's entry-level audiophile market.) The SL1200 is
out of production, but several copycats are still out there.

That was then, this is now. I never had a DD table that satisfied me,
and I had a number of DD tables that were highly touted at the time. I
don't remember their model numbers but I had the big, expensive
Panasonic SP-10 as well as the top-of-the-line JVC QL-70 (among
others) and I didn't like either. I believe that looking back, my
favorite turntable, and the one I should have kept, was the Empire 598
"Troubadour". It was built like a tank, belt drive, with a sprung
sub-chassis, had a nice big torque-y motor and an excellent mid-mass
arm. My friends and I called it the "great gold idol". it was very
imposing looking. With the Nakaoka heavy, lead-filled record mat
fitted, it gave the most satisfying sound I think I ever heard from LP
(although my later Mapleknoll Athena was close, it's requirement for a
noisy aquarium pump and the concomitant difficulty in keeping the air
properly proportioned between the SLT arm and the 'table's platter,
made it a pain in the arse)

What's really missing today is the p-mount, which brought acceptable
and non-destructive reproduction to the masses.

The indictment of the p-mount concept was that arguably, the highest
quality P-mount cartridge ever sold (to my knowledge - who knows what
was sold in Japan and never made available in the rest of the world)
was the original Sumiko Bluepoint. There was no P-mount Koetsu, or
Dynavector or even a P-mount Shure V-15 available. I'm not saying
that this kind of standardization wasn't a good idea, it certainly
was. But unfortunately, it looks as if it were too little, too late
and only mass-market manufacturers embraced it. I don't remember one
high-quality arm maker who had a P-mount arm. If I'm wrong here and
disremember, please enlighten me.

[bob]

On Nov 3, 6:58=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:
On Wed, 2 Nov 2011 19:49:26 -0700, bob wrote
(in article ):

On Nov 2, 7:22=3DA0pm, Audio Empire wrote:

All of them. Project. Music Hall, and Rega all make fine performing
"high-end" turntables. There's no market for any other kind.

I wouldn't call them "fine performing." But certain know-nothing
reviewers have anointed them "high-end," and that's been enough.

They have low wow/flutter,

Do they? Last I checked, none of them quoted a meaningful W&F spec.
(Meaningful here means not just a number, but which standard they are
using.) I tend to assume that the absence of a spec is an admission of
weakness, because it almost always is. Atkinson really ought to be
measuring turntables.

snip

The indictment of the p-mount concept was that arguably, the highest
quality P-mount cartridge ever sold (to my knowledge - who knows what
was sold in Japan and never made available in the rest of the world)
was the original Sumiko Bluepoint. There was no P-mount Koetsu, or
Dynavector or even a P-mount Shure V-15 available. =A0I'm not saying
that this kind of standardization wasn't a good idea, it certainly
was. But unfortunately, it looks as if it were too little, too late
and only mass-market manufacturers embraced it. I don't remember one
high-quality arm maker who had a P-mount arm. If I'm wrong here and
disremember, please enlighten me.

No, I think you're right, and I wouldn't expect a high-end maker (of
either tables or carts) to embrace it. But the entry level matters for
the future of the medium, and even the mass marketers didn't embrace
it wholeheartedly. A p-mount arm should have been everyone's entry-
level turntable. You'll get decent sound without a learning curve, and
when you're ready to learn how to match and mount you're own
cartridge, you're ready to upgrade.

Your "too little too late" comment is spot-on. It would have helped a
lot if p-mount carts had been available in the mid 70s.

bob

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Audio Empire" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 2 Nov 2011 19:49:26 -0700, bob wrote

I think most knowledgeable audio/music
enthusiasts would have to agree that decent vinyl performance is far
better than was Philips cassette performance - even WITH Dolby B and
HX Pro).

I was surely of that opinion back when such things mattered.

I always found commercially available cassettes to sound
lousy. Even on a Nakamichi 1000, they had much more wow and flutter
than an LP, they were noisier than an LP and always sounded
compressed. In short, they were lousy.

Agreed.

Of course, so were LPs. Of course only people who had heard well made high
speed tapes (e.g. 7 1/2 ips and higher) knew about it.

snip

All of them. Project. Music Hall, and Rega all make fine performing
"high-end" turntables. There's no market for any other kind.

I wouldn't call them "fine performing." But certain know-nothing
reviewers have anointed them "high-end," and that's been enough.

They have low wow/flutter,

They have up to six magnitudes more FM distortion than even mediocre
digital, and the FM distortion is often at similar frequencies.

the arms are low mass/low friction and dynamically balanced, and they do a
decent job of playing a record.

They are not appreciably better than the better products that we had in the
late 70s and early 80s. There has been no new signficant technical
innovations since then.

Of course they don't elicit the last word in resolution from one's vinyl
but they are better than any $89 direct-drive table from the 1980s.

If you set the bar low enough.

Also the above is an assertion with no reliable technical support.
Measurements? Reliable listening tests?

snip

But there are scores of new ones that have taken their place. The
absolute
bottom tier is gone, that's true. There are no more cheap mass-market
tables
from the likes of Pioneer, Yamaha, Panasonic etc.,

Not those brands in particular, but the low end is still well-
represented. Last time I was in Best Buy (a while ago), the only thing
they carried was a sub-$100 Sony. It's still made, and has plenty of
competition.

Yes, it seems that cheap tables from Numark, Ion, and Sony are still
available, but I must say that I've never seen one in a store.

It's all about what stores you visit.

They are all that I see in stores, including Best Buy. They are all over
the web. They are sold in ads in Sunday suppliments.

Numark tables show up from time-to-time in Music stores as "DJ equipment"
however.

There is plenty of evidence that at its peak, DJ LP sales dwarfed the
audiophile market.

Let's not forget that the only thing that kept vinyl alive in the 90s
AT ALL was the DJ market. (And they were not using the hamster-powered
belt drives of today's entry-level audiophile market.) The SL1200 is
out of production, but several copycats are still out there.

That was then, this is now. I never had a DD table that satisfied me,

That's all about your prejudices. Got any technical evidence that there is a
categoric and/or inherent technical problem with DD turntables?

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Audio Empire" wrote in message
...

There is a store not 10 miles from me than sells NOTHING but new
turntables
(dozens of brands all the way from $200 for a Chinese built belt drive
unit
with a decent arm and a cartridge of unknown quality (sold by Music Hall)
to
Walker Proscenium selling for more than $60,000.), new turntable
accessories
and records.

I'm a bit surprised, but not really. There are any number of stores that
specialize in Buggy Whips, even one with a web site:

http://www.buggy-whips.com/

Does this mean that the days of the automobile have ended and we are going
to return to animal power? ;-)

But there are scores of new ones that have taken their place. The absolute
bottom tier is gone, that's true.

Actually, the absolute bottom tier, which is the sub-$100 to ca. $100 USB
turntable, has lots of representation. Adjust ca. $100 for inflation and
then compare that to prices in the days of vinyl (ca. 1960-1970) and you
will see what I mean.

There are no more cheap mass-market tables
from the likes of Pioneer, Yamaha, Panasonic etc., if that's what you
mean.

But there are such products from Audio Technica and Sony. Are you
cherry-picking names?

But there are plenty more higher end tables from Japan, China, GB,and
Europe
and even the good ol' USA!

None of which sell in appreciable quantities.

So, given that the population of the US, at least,
200,000,000 40 years ago and is over 300,000,00 now,
what, in FACT, has happened to the number of stores selling
turntables, the number of turntables available, the number
of new LPs being released, the number of new LPs available
and sold, per person 40 years ago vs today?

Not a valid question. Vinyl is no longer the ONLY source of listener owned
music media as it was 40 years ago.

Vinyl sales are still around 1-2% of physical media:

http://76.74.24.142/548C3F4C-6B6D-F7...5E2AB93610.pdf

LP/EP + Vinyl singles = 4.3 million pieces. Total physical sales = 212
million.

Vinyl sales are only about 0.1-0.2% of total sales = 1,726 million pieces.

Pick a number - 2% or 0.2%. It is all best described as "vanishingly small".

If you treat the facts honestly and without prejudice, how
can one say that "LPs are flousriching?"

Because, as a niche market, it is.

That's like saying that the Greater Scaup (a duck-like bird that whose
numbers are only a tiny fraction of what they were) family in my back yard
are doing well.

If you insist that vinyl has to be the
dominate music source in the marketplace in order to be healthy and
flourishing, then we have no common ground to discuss this, because that
is a
false requirement in my estimation.

The absence of common ground comes from an illogical sentimental
attachement, not any technical or commercial fact. You can like what you
like and spend your money as you wish, but I don't have to take at face
value claims that don't stand up to the facts that are before us all.

The sale of vinyl and the attendant
equipment to play it with is large enough to support the number of players
in
that market, and the market segment is growing, not shrinking.

In fact vinyl equipment and media sales have ebbed and flowed in the 20
years since it stopped being a mainstream format. It has doggedly held onto
a tiny numeric segment that is continually being more agressively dwarfed
when the total market for recorded media is considered. We used to talk
about vinyl having a 1-2% market share but if all recordings are considered,
that has dropped to 0.1-0.2%. You can't download vinyl but you can download
a digital file that represents a CD track and have a recording that is
technically and sonically identical to what was on the physical media.

You can play a CD track on a portable player the size of a pack of matches,
but you can't play a LP that way. That's either the bad news or the good
news depending on how you weight sentimentality and tradition against
enjoying mainstream music offerings now.

That's the
criteria for a flourishing market, not some erstwhile market dominance
from a
simpler age when the average music lover had little choice but to buy
vinyl
because there was, essentially, nothing else.

For most people vinyl was something that they tolerated because there was no
competition for it. As soon as there was viable competition the air flowed
out of the vinyl baloon like a bullet had passed through it. That is all
ancient history.

We are now obviously seeing a strong move away from any kind of physical
media at all. I don't buy DVDs from the store that used to be down the
street a few blocks away, I don't go to Blockbuster a few blocks away to
rent them, I rent Blu Rays by web and mail from Netflix and download a few
over the web.


That might work with Harry, but not with me. I'm taking issue only with
your
statement that LP is not flourishing by any criteria you know and your
rather
weak attempts at backing that opinion up.

Using the same logic, the existance of a web store that specializes in buggy
whips means that the buggy whip market is thriving? Thriving comapred to
what?


Well, Dick, your "facts", as stated, seem to lack current market
knowledge.
Statements like "...how many of those three brands of turntables at Best
Buy
would you let within 10 feet of any of your LPs?" shows that you don't
seem
to know that today's record decks, even the cheap ones are very good with
fine performing arms and low-friction bearings. So, with seemingly
outdated
"facts" and some of the assumptions that you seem to have made, above,
you'll forgive me for taking your conclusions on this issue with a grain
of
salt.

Actually, I've seen technical tests of many of these low cost turntables,
and most turn out to be the groove busters that we fear that they we

http://www.knowzy.com/Computers/Audi...rntabl es.htm

On this page there is a particularly amusing item called: "One Cheap USB
turntable. Many brand names" How many of these aliases have been namelessly
hyped here? The technical description after thorough testing is:

"All plastic construction, ceramic cartridge with inferior sound,
accelerates wear by applying serious needle pressure, skipped frequently in
(our) tests."

[bob]

On Nov 4, 5:37=A0pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Actually, I've seen technical tests of many of these low cost turntables,
and most turn out to be the groove busters that we fear that they we

http://www.knowzy.com/Computers/Audi.../Sample_Audio_...

Interesting page, though someone really needs a lesson or two in
effective communication of information. Too bad they're focused solely
on the low end of the market. Once they get some meaningful
independent measurements posted, there will actually be more
information available about these cheapo units than about most of the
high end offerings out there.

bob

[Audio Empire]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:37:14 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):


Actually, I've seen technical tests of many of these low cost turntables,
and most turn out to be the groove busters that we fear that they we


http://www.knowzy.com/Computers/Audi...udio_Clips_Fro

m_USB_Record_Player_Turntables.htm

On this page there is a particularly amusing item called: "One Cheap USB
turntable. Many brand names" How many of these aliases have been namelessly
hyped here? The technical description after thorough testing is:

"All plastic construction, ceramic cartridge with inferior sound,
accelerates wear by applying serious needle pressure, skipped frequently in
(our) tests."


Actually we're talking at cross purposes here. This is not the kind of
turntables I'm talking about. I agree that these are junk and I wouldn't let
one of my records in the same room with any of them, never mind that I would
actually play a record with one! I suspect that the excuse for such junk as
these "USB" tables is that if you can play the record once and digitize it,
then you will not need to play it again. That said, who cares if it tears the
record a new one while being transfered to digital? 8^)

I never even considered junk like this when I was discussing today's low end
record decks. To me a low-end record deck starts at about $400. No record
owner I have ever known would even contemplate such a piece of crap as these
tables in your above URL. Fact is since I don't "play" in that arena, I
wasn't even aware that such junk still existed in the marketplace. That said,
I take back what wrote earlier about the low-end tier being gone, and I have
to say that it's still with us and today's $99 record decks are far poorer
than the $99 decks of the late '70's and 1980's.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

Fact of the matter is, I walked into a Best Buy for the first time in a
few
months, and there on a rearranged shelf were three different brands of
turntables. Hardly a sign of dying interest.

Equipment being offered for sale is not the same as good, useful equipment
actually selling in volume.

Harry, what you are not telling us is the exact nature of those 3 turntable
offerings.

I'll bet money all 3 were sub-$150 USB turntables. There might even be one
or more of those hopelessly cheap Crosley retro-devices. Ceramic cartridges
anybody? Groove-busters all. At least one of them was no doubt less than
$99.

So tell us Harry would you actually recommend that an audiophile buy *any*
of them? Would you replace your current vinyl playback system with any of
them?

Probably not so much.

Probably just another example of a false impression created by not telling
the relevant facts.

[Audio Empire]

On Wed, 2 Nov 2011 16:12:06 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

Fact of the matter is, I walked into a Best Buy for the first time in a
few
months, and there on a rearranged shelf were three different brands of
turntables. Hardly a sign of dying interest.

Equipment being offered for sale is not the same as good, useful equipment
actually selling in volume.

In this case it is.

Harry, what you are not telling us is the exact nature of those 3 turntable
offerings.

I'll bet money all 3 were sub-$150 USB turntables. There might even be one
or more of those hopelessly cheap Crosley retro-devices. Ceramic cartridges
anybody? Groove-busters all. At least one of them was no doubt less than
$99.

And you'd be wrong. These are the wages of not keeping up. Best Buy (Magnolia
Audio, actually. Those are the audio stores that are part of Best Buy and are
located inside them) sells two brands of turntable: Pro-Ject and McIntosh.
The McIntosh MT-10 costs close to $10,000 while the cheapest table sold by
Magnolia/ Best Buy is the Austrian-made Pro-Ject table Debut III at $399.
Even the latter is a very decent performer with a 12" platter, belt drive, a
decent arm and an OK Sumiko MM cartridge. Project sells tables all the way to
the $5000 Xtension with a 12" arm and servo-controlled motor.

So tell us Harry would you actually recommend that an audiophile buy *any*
of them? Would you replace your current vinyl playback system with any of
them?

I'll bet he would. I wouldn't mind having a Project RM9.2 ($2500) or a
RM-10.1 ($3499), or the aforementioned $5000 Xtension. Not to mention the
McIntosh MT-10. Yes, I'd be OK giving up my J.A. Michelle Orb S.E. for one of
these.

Probably not so much.

Yeah, pretty much

Probably just another example of a false impression created by not telling
the relevant facts.

Just like the false impression you are creating here by apparently not
knowing the relevant facts.

[Audio Empire]

On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:33:01 -0700, Dick Pierce wrote
(in article ):

Audio Empire wrote:
LP? It's still flourishing

By whatever criteria one might use to come to
that conclusion, one could also say that Latin
is a flourishing language and the Eutruscans
are a flourishing people.

That's not to deny that there are peaople selling
and buying LPs, but it continuously amazes me how
one can take a product whose current sales are but
a small fraction of what they once were and call
that "flourishing."


It's very simple. Ten years ago, there was essentially no 'new' LP
market and turntable and cartridge sales were all but finished, with
essentially no new models from any manufacturers. Now, there are new
LP pressing plants that didn't exist 10 years ago, and they are
backlogged with work and can't keep up with demand. LP mastering
engineers like Stan Ricker, who in the mid 90's packed up their
mastering studios and stored them away, have unpacked them, set them
up again, and have all the business that they can handle - and more.

Companies like Thorens who had essentially stopped making 'tables 10
years ago are back with a dozen new models at all price points. There
are scores of new 'tables from the likes of SME, Linn, Music Hall,
Rega, VPI, Pro-Ject, J.A. Michelle, Well Tempered, Clear Audio, Denon,
Avid, etc. to name but a few. There are hundreds of new cartridges
from the likes of Clearaudio, Grado, Denon, Ortofon, Lyre, Linn,
Sumiko, and dozens more companies. Same with tone-arms and stand alone
phono preamps. Amplifier companies who, ten years ago, were taking
phono stages OUT of their preamps and integrated amplifiers are now
putting them back in. The LP business is doing fine, and while it will
never be the market it was when LP was essentially the only source of
mass listener-owned music there was (and why would it even HAVE to be
to remain successful?), it is a healthy niche that is, according to
statistics, still growing steadily. The vinyl market remains strong
even though I've heard some folks say that it's moribund because
there's really nothing new under the sun. The vinyl playing equipment
sold today is technically little different from that being sold at the
peak of vinyl's heyday in the mid eighties. They are right there,
there is little new technology in the vinyl playback field (except
perhaps the introduction of some new materials such as carbon fiber).
But that's not because the field in moribund, but rather because vinyl
playback is a mature technology - like subsonic aircraft design. The
U.S. Air Force still flies 60-year old B-52 bombers because if they
replaced the B-52 with a new design with similar capabilities, that
new design would be, essentially, another B-52 because subsonic
airframe design is a mature technology. So is vinyl playback.

LP is hardly the moribund market that some=A0seem to want to think it
is.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Nov 1, 4:33=A0pm, Dick Pierce wrote:
Audio Empire wrote:
LP? It's still flourishing

By whatever criteria one might use to come to
that conclusion, one could also say that Latin
is a flourishing language and the Eutruscans
are a flourishing people.

That's not to deny that there are peaople selling
and buying LPs, but it continuously amazes me how
one can take a product whose current sales are but
a small fraction of what they once were and call
that "flourishing."

--
+--------------------------------+
+ =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Dick Pierce =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0|
+ Professional Audio Development |
+--------------------------------+

Flourish
http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...rish?view=3Duk

[no object] (of a living organism) grow or develop in a healthy or
vigorous way, especially as the result of a particularly congenial
environment:

The market for new LPs has grown in a healthy and vigorous way for the
past decade or so. Particularly in the last three years. that would be
the criteria by which one can accurately and reasonably say that the
market is flourishing

Now can the same be said of your examples? Have the number of people
speaking Latin grown at a rate that one could describe as healthy or
vigorous? has the Eutruscan population grown in the past decade in a
way that could be described as vigorous? I'm thinking not.