[bob]

On Oct 3, 7:07=A0am, Scott wrote:

Or if they have a dealer who actually understands the basics of vinyl
playback. They are easy to find.

Seriously? Trust in the knowledge of the same dealers who think cable
at $100/ft. makes a difference? The last dealer I talked to about
turntables tried to sell me a green pen for my CDs.

If consumers are dependent on those clowns, they haven't a chance.

bob

[Audio Empire]

On Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:11:19 -0700, bob wrote
(in article ):

On Oct 3, 7:07=A0am, Scott wrote:

Or if they have a dealer who actually understands the basics of vinyl
playback. They are easy to find.

Seriously? Trust in the knowledge of the same dealers who think cable
at $100/ft. makes a difference? The last dealer I talked to about
turntables tried to sell me a green pen for my CDs.

If consumers are dependent on those clowns, they haven't a chance.

bob


You certainly have a point there. While there are retailers who know vinyl
and are qualified to recommend arm/cartridge combinations (and can even
properly install them), my take is that they are few and far between. 'Jerry
Raksin's Needle Doctor' has the reputation of doing a good job at this and
will professionally install a cartridge in a turntable package as can 'The
Audio Advisor', 'Music Direct', and 'The Elusive Disc', et al (at least with
the packages they sell), but these people are mail-order. From talking to the
folks at most local shops, I'm not sure I'd trust most of them to properly
install a cartridge (or even suggest proper matchings), as I've seen no
evidence that they posses any special competence with record playing
equipment, if they sell it at all. In the SF Bay Area, where I live, there is
a dealer called the "Analog Room' who know their stuff, but they are about
the only dealer I know that exhibits any real vinyl expertise.

I think the average vinyl owner would do a lot better to either buy a compete
manufacturer's ensemble, with cartridge preinstalled, or to learn the basics
and select and install the cartridge one's self.

Of course, it would be nice if the manufacturers could make this selection
process easier with some kind of standardized matching nomenclature. 8^)

As usual, I have no connection with any of these aforementioned dealers, etc.

[bob]

On Oct 4, 11:11=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:

You certainly have a point there. While there are retailers who know viny=
l
and are qualified to recommend arm/cartridge combinations (and can even
properly install them), my take is that they are few and far between. 'Je=
rry
Raksin's Needle Doctor' has the reputation of doing a good job at this an=
d
will professionally install a cartridge in a turntable package as can 'Th=
e
Audio Advisor', 'Music Direct', and 'The Elusive Disc', et al (at least w=
ith
the packages they sell), but these people are mail-order. From talking to=
the
folks at most =A0local shops, I'm not sure I'd trust most of them to prop=
erly
install a cartridge (or even suggest proper matchings), as I've seen no
evidence that they posses any special competence with record playing
equipment, if they sell it at all. In the SF Bay Area, where I live, ther=
e is
a dealer called the "Analog Room' who know their stuff, but they are abou=
t
the only dealer I know that exhibits any real vinyl expertise.

I'm sure there are dealers who know this stuff. I'm sure there are
others who don't. The question is, how is the consumer to tell,
without developing the very expertise in question? At which point, of
course, you know longer need the dealer's advice.

And given what else they sell and promote--magic cables, magic pens,
magic stones--I'm mystified as to why we should trust any such dealer
to be right about anything related to audio.

I think the average vinyl owner would do a lot better to either buy a com=
pete
manufacturer's ensemble, with cartridge preinstalled, or to learn the bas=
ics
and select and install the cartridge one's self.

Probably good advice, although I'm not sure the issue is as critical
as you've made it out to be. My understanding (open to correction, of
course) is that neither high-compliance carts nor ultra-low-mass arms
are very common these days, market trends having moved in the higher-
mass-lower-compliance direction. So even someone picking components at
random has a decent chance of getting something that'll work.

Still, there is no substitute for actually learning the material and
doing the work. It has always struck me as odd that people would adopt
a technical hobby like audio, then go out and spend substantial sums
of money without learning the technical stuff. But my occasional scans
of audio discussions suggest that an awful lot of people who at least
think of themselves as audiophiles have no real understanding of this
issue.

I blame Atkinson, because there's no point blaming Fremer.

bob

[Scott[_6_]]

On Oct 5, 11:08=A0am, bob wrote:
On Oct 4, 11:11=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:

You certainly have a point there. While there are retailers who know vi=
nyl
and are qualified to recommend arm/cartridge combinations (and can even
properly install them), my take is that they are few and far between. '=
Jerry
Raksin's Needle Doctor' has the reputation of doing a good job at this =
and
will professionally install a cartridge in a turntable package as can '=
The
Audio Advisor', 'Music Direct', and 'The Elusive Disc', et al (at least=
with
the packages they sell), but these people are mail-order. From talking =
to the
folks at most =A0local shops, I'm not sure I'd trust most of them to pr=
operly
install a cartridge (or even suggest proper matchings), as I've seen no
evidence that they posses any special competence with record playing
equipment, if they sell it at all. In the SF Bay Area, where I live, th=
ere is
a dealer called the "Analog Room' who know their stuff, but they are ab=
out
the only dealer I know that exhibits any real vinyl expertise.

I'm sure there are dealers who know this stuff. I'm sure there are
others who don't. The question is, how is the consumer to tell,
without developing the very expertise in question?

That is a fair question. But it really doesn't take a great deal of
research to figure this stuff out. I had no trouble with my dealer's
set abilities in the art of turntable/arm/cartridge set up. He went to
the trouble of explaining things to me and showing me how he did it.
IF there is a concern about arm/cartridge resonances all it takes is
the old Hifi News test record to give you the answer. The instructions
on the record jacket tell you how to use it and it is really simple.
But I really doubt there are mnay if ANY high end dealers sending
people out the door with mismatched arms and cartridges.

At which point, of
course, you know longer need the dealer's advice.

That is true.



And given what else they sell and promote--magic cables, magic pens,
magic stones--I'm mystified as to why we should trust any such dealer
to be right about anything related to audio.

This is just poor logic IMO. One can say the same thing about any
number of other beliefs. I won't go into that becaue religion is a
touchy subject but we do trust the judgement of many people in this
world who do believe in things that are outside the boundaries of
science.





I think the average vinyl owner would do a lot better to either buy a c=
ompete
manufacturer's ensemble, with cartridge preinstalled, or to learn the b=
asics
and select and install the cartridge one's self.

Probably good advice, although I'm not sure the issue is as critical
as you've made it out to be.

The problem is that it is very limiting in options. You can get
something like this from Rega. Beyond that I'm not sure what
manufacturer would offer a complete package ready to play out of the
box.


My understanding (open to correction, of
course) is that neither high-compliance carts nor ultra-low-mass arms
are very common these days, market trends having moved in the higher-
mass-lower-compliance direction. So even someone picking components at
random has a decent chance of getting something that'll work.

Still, there is no substitute for actually learning the material and
doing the work. It has always struck me as odd that people would adopt
a technical hobby like audio, then go out and spend substantial sums
of money without learning the technical stuff. But my occasional scans
of audio discussions suggest that an awful lot of people who at least
think of themselves as audiophiles have no real understanding of this
issue.

IMO audio is first and formost about listening to music. that anyone
would have to become technically adroit to enjoy the hobby seems a bit
unfair and really it's not entirely true. But you are at the mercy of
a dealer or a knowledgable friend. people by sports cars and pay
others to get under the hood. Audio is no different in that regard.
And sure you can find a lousy technitian just as easily as you can
find a lousy mechanic. But this arm/cartridge resonance crisis is IMO
a non-event.



I blame Atkinson, because there's no point blaming Fremer.

Blame him for what? Of course it would be really funny to blame
Fremer, the guy who put out a do it yourself DVD on TT set up. That
would have been really funny.

Oh yeah, anyone can buy Michael Fremer's DVD on TT set up and learn
all about these things and more. "The horror, the horror" ;-)

[bob]

On Oct 5, 4:13=A0pm, Scott wrote:
On Oct 5, 11:08=A0am, bob wrote:

I'm sure there are dealers who know this stuff. I'm sure there are
others who don't. The question is, how is the consumer to tell,
without developing the very expertise in question?

That is a fair question. But it really doesn't take a great deal of
research to figure this stuff out. I =A0had no trouble with my dealer's
set abilities in the art of turntable/arm/cartridge set up. He went to
the trouble of explaining things to me and showing me how he did it.

Right, but in that situation you've got to make a judgment about
whether you think this guy knows what he's talking about. You probably
have enough background to make a reasonable judgment. A less
experienced audiophile might not.

IF there is a concern about arm/cartridge resonances all it takes is
the old Hifi News test record to give you the answer. The instructions
on the record jacket tell you how to use it and it is really simple.

And a better answer than just trusting a dealer to know. Probably
better than trusting your own calculations, assuming you know how to
do them.

But I really doubt there are mnay if ANY high end dealers sending
people out the door with mismatched arms and cartridges.

Well there's your dealer, whom you feel is trustworthy. Then there's
the guy who, when I went in to talk about turntables ended up trying
to sell me isolation points (for a CD player!) and a green pen. I
wouldn't trust him to connect a patch cord, and I suspect you wouldn't
either.

I don't think your dealer is an anomaly, but I don't think mine is,
either. I suspect that high-end dealers run the gamut, and caveat
emptor is the rule of the day.

snip

And given what else they sell and promote--magic cables, magic pens,
magic stones--I'm mystified as to why we should trust any such dealer
to be right about anything related to audio.

This is just poor logic IMO. One can say the same thing about any
number of other beliefs. I won't go into that becaue religion is a
touchy subject but we do trust the judgement of many people in this
world who do believe in things that are outside the boundaries of
science.

You've got a faulty analogy hiding in there. I'm not talking about
trusting a Creationist to fix your car. I'm talking about trusting a
Creationist to teach your kid biology. Audio dealers are supposed to
know audio. A guy who believes that part of his product line has
magical qualities doesn't qualify, in my book. Which excludes just
about the whole lot, I'm afraid.

snip

The problem is that it is very limiting in options. You can get
something like this from Rega. Beyond that I'm not sure what
manufacturer would offer a complete package ready to play out of the
box.

To some extent, this is about price points. Almost every table sold
for under a grand comes complete with arm and cartridge installed.
Above entry-level, you're probably right, although I think there are
at least a few companies making both tables and carts who might do
this. One consideration which I think (or at least hope) you'll agree
with is that a modest rig well set up is better than a great rig
poorly set up.

I think we both agree that if you're going to spend thousands of bucks
on a analog rig, you ought to take the time to learn to match the
system and set it up right.

snip

Blame him for what? Of course it would be really funny to blame
Fremer, the guy who put out a do it yourself DVD on TT set up. That
would have been really funny.

Oh yeah, anyone can buy Michael Fremer's DVD on TT set up and learn
all about these things and more. "The horror, the horror" ;-)

Anyone can self-publish a DVD of himself slobbering for 3 hours. I've
read enough of Fremer's extrusions that I'd put him in the category of
my dealer, above, not yours.

I blame Atkinson, first and foremost, for giving Fremer a platform to
misinform his readers. And second, for failing to measure analog gear
the way he does other components. Doing that would at least add some
counterweight to the baloney that currently dominates the magazine's
analog coverage.

bob

[Scott[_6_]]

On Oct 5, 6:27=A0pm, bob wrote:
On Oct 5, 4:13=A0pm, Scott wrote:

On Oct 5, 11:08=A0am, bob wrote:
I'm sure there are dealers who know this stuff. I'm sure there are
others who don't. The question is, how is the consumer to tell,
without developing the very expertise in question?

That is a fair question. But it really doesn't take a great deal of
research to figure this stuff out. I =A0had no trouble with my dealer's
set abilities in the art of turntable/arm/cartridge set up. He went to
the trouble of explaining things to me and showing me how he did it.

Right, but in that situation you've got to make a judgment about
whether you think this guy knows what he's talking about. You probably
have enough background to make a reasonable judgment. A less
experienced audiophile might not.

I didn't have much of a background at all. But the dealer had an
excellent reputation and there was no getting around the fact that the
many rigs he had on display were playing records very very well.
Things worked out quite well.



IF there is a concern about arm/cartridge resonances all it takes is
the old Hifi News test record to give you the answer. The instructions
on the record jacket tell you how to use it and it is really simple.

And a better answer than just trusting a dealer to know. Probably
better than trusting your own calculations, assuming you know how to
do them.

Yeah, that test record let's you know what you got and it is quite
easy to use.



But I really doubt there are mnay if ANY high end dealers sending
people out the door with mismatched arms and cartridges.

Well there's your dealer, whom you feel is trustworthy. Then there's
the guy who, when I went in to talk about turntables ended up trying
to sell me isolation points (for a CD player!) and a green pen. I
wouldn't trust him to connect a patch cord, and I suspect you wouldn't
either.

That dealer does not sell green pens but he does sell isolation points
and high end high priced cables. His ability to match a cartridge to
an arm and set it up is quite independent of his beliefs on cable
sound. TT set up is a pretty specific skill set and you find out
pretty quickly if you are doing it well with the use of the test
record. Since those days I have learned the ins and outs of the whole
process. My beliefs on cable sound do not have any effect on my skills
in TT set up or arm/cartridge resonance issues.


I don't think your dealer is an anomaly, but I don't think mine is,
either. I suspect that high-end dealers run the gamut, and caveat
emptor is the rule of the day.

But to your knowledge has your dealer actually ever sent anyone out
the door with a mismatched arm and cartridge? That does seem to be the
crisis that I think does not actually exist.



snip

And given what else they sell and promote--magic cables, magic pens,
magic stones--I'm mystified as to why we should trust any such dealer
to be right about anything related to audio.

This is just poor logic IMO. One can say the same thing about any
number of other beliefs. I won't go into that becaue religion is a
touchy subject but we do trust the judgement of many people in this
world who do believe in things that are outside the boundaries of
science.

You've got a faulty analogy hiding in there. I'm not talking about
trusting a Creationist to fix your car. I'm talking about trusting a
Creationist to teach your kid biology.


I have a bity of a problem with that analogy. Setting up a TT does not
require ANY knowledge of science. It is entirely mechanical. Depending
on the arm it is more about manual dextarity than anything about
science or superstition. It is a lot more like fixing a car. Actually
it's a lot simpler than that. Also comparing a belief in the sound of
cables to creationism is way out of line IMO.

Audio dealers are supposed to
know audio. A guy who believes that part of his product line has
magical qualities doesn't qualify, in my book. Which excludes just
about the whole lot, I'm afraid.

So in your opinion a person who beleives in cable sound is incapable
of being skilled enough to match an arm to a cartridge and properly
set up a turntable rig?



snip

The problem is that it is very limiting in options. You can get
something like this from Rega. Beyond that I'm not sure what
manufacturer would offer a complete package ready to play out of the
box.

To some extent, this is about price points. Almost every table sold
for under a grand comes complete with arm and cartridge installed.
Above entry-level, you're probably right, although I think there are
at least a few companies making both tables and carts who might do
this. One consideration which I think (or at least hope) you'll agree
with is that a modest rig well set up is better than a great rig
poorly set up.

Yes. I would agree with that.



I think we both agree that if you're going to spend thousands of bucks
on a analog rig, you ought to take the time to learn to match the
system and set it up right.


It certainly is not a bad idea.


snip

Blame him for what? Of course it would be really funny to blame
Fremer, the guy who put out a do it yourself DVD on TT set up. That
would have been really funny.

Oh yeah, anyone can buy Michael Fremer's DVD on TT set up and learn
all about these things and more. "The horror, the horror" ;-)

Anyone can self-publish a DVD of himself slobbering for 3 hours. I've
read enough of Fremer's extrusions that I'd put him in the category of
my dealer, above, not yours.

Really? What specifically in his DVD or extrusions you have read would
you say is misguided or technically wrong? Or just plain slobbering? I
have not seen the entire DVD but I did see Fremer do a presentation/
sales pitch of the DVD and while the information was old news to me it
was entirely accurate and important if one is doing their own set up.



I blame Atkinson, first and foremost, for giving Fremer a platform to
misinform his readers.


Whoa! What misinformation has Fremer given potential buyers of arms
and/or cartridges that would lead to a mismatch or improper set up?
That is what we are talking about here.

And second, for failing to measure analog gear
the way he does other components. Doing that would at least add some
counterweight to the baloney that currently dominates the magazine's
analog coverage.


In what way? I certainly would not have a problem with them adding a
nice set of measurments but I don't see how it's going to do anything
to counter the subjective impressions of the reviewers.
That must be what you are refering to when you say "baloney." I have
never caught Fremer making any technical mistakes in his descriptions
of the analog products he reviews. Have you?

[Audio Empire]

On Wed, 5 Oct 2011 11:08:41 -0700, bob wrote
(in article ):

On Oct 4, 11:11=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:

You certainly have a point there. While there are retailers who know vinyl
and are qualified to recommend arm/cartridge combinations (and can even
properly install them), my take is that they are few and far between. 'Jerry
Raksin's Needle Doctor' has the reputation of doing a good job at this and
will professionally install a cartridge in a turntable package as can 'The
Audio Advisor', 'Music Direct', and 'The Elusive Disc', et al (at least with
the packages they sell), but these people are mail-order. From talking to the
folks at most =A0local shops, I'm not sure I'd trust most of them to properly
install a cartridge (or even suggest proper matchings), as I've seen no
evidence that they posses any special competence with record playing
equipment, if they sell it at all. In the SF Bay Area, where I live, there is
a dealer called the "Analog Room' who know their stuff, but they are about
the only dealer I know that exhibits any real vinyl expertise.

I'm sure there are dealers who know this stuff. I'm sure there are
others who don't. The question is, how is the consumer to tell,
without developing the very expertise in question? At which point, of
course, you know longer need the dealer's advice.

And given what else they sell and promote--magic cables, magic pens,
magic stones--I'm mystified as to why we should trust any such dealer
to be right about anything related to audio.

As the Brits would say, that is somewhat of a "sticky wicket". See, things
like cables, magic pens, mrytlewood blocks and special rocks et al, are very
high profit items and I'm sure most shops have to carry them in order to meet
the "needs" of their customers, many of which probably believe that these
snake-oil nostrums actually do something positive to their stereo systems. It
doesn't actually follow that these dealers (1) believe in the efficacy of
this junk themselves, or (2) that a belief in this audio voo-doo
automatically disqualifies a dealer for having the skill-set available that
allows them to do a good job pairing arms and cartridges or installing them.
More likely, the lack of this skill set is due to the proliferation of
digital sources over the last 25 years having supplanted the need for audio
sales and technical personnel to know about turntables and the other minutia
of vinyl playback. Those who DID know how to do this correctly are now
approaching retirement age and only a few younger people have undertaken to
learn it.

I think the average vinyl owner would do a lot better to either buy a compete
manufacturer's ensemble, with cartridge preinstalled, or to learn the basics
and select and install the cartridge one's self.

Probably good advice, although I'm not sure the issue is as critical
as you've made it out to be. My understanding (open to correction, of
course) is that neither high-compliance carts nor ultra-low-mass arms
are very common these days, market trends having moved in the higher-
mass-lower-compliance direction. So even someone picking components at
random has a decent chance of getting something that'll work.

I wish that were true. Getting it right is not that easy. I get to see a lot
of cartridges and I have but one arm, a Jelco SA-750DB

http://www.jelco-ichikawa.co.jp/e_tone_arm.htm

That I chose because it has a universal SME headshell which facilitates
changing cartridges and is well thought-of in the industry (a number of
high-end turntable manufacturers supply Jelco arms as original equipment in
their turntables). About one out of three cartridges I've tried in it
actually "work" properly (I.E. are relatively free from warp-wow, insensitive
to foot-falls, or exhibit good, tight, mud-free bass.) without either adding
mass (easy enough) or removing it (not easy).

Still, there is no substitute for actually learning the material and
doing the work. It has always struck me as odd that people would adopt
a technical hobby like audio, then go out and spend substantial sums
of money without learning the technical stuff. But my occasional scans
of audio discussions suggest that an awful lot of people who at least
think of themselves as audiophiles have no real understanding of this
issue.

That's certainly true. Audio is one technical hobby that seems to be very
susceptible to mythology and misconceptions due to ignorance. It's not the
only hobby so plagued, however. A quick trip to the local auto parts store
will show shelf-after shelf of useless nostrums such as oil additives that do
nothing that a good grade of oil won't do by itself, "fire-injector" spark
plugs promising more power and higher fuel economy, additives that claim to
cure leaky head gaskets, "turbine plates" which, when installed between one's
air cleaner and one's mass air intake will cause the air to swirl in such a
way as to, again, add power, reduce fuel consumption, make for easier
starting and smoother running, etc.

I blame Atkinson, because there's no point blaming Fremer.

These people cater to a readership that doesn't really want to learn the
electronics or the physics or the digital signal theory necessary to actually
understand the basics that they need to understand in order to make
intelligent, well informed buying choices in the first place. Blaming them
for writing to an audience is a largely empty procedure.

[bob]

On Oct 5, 8:19=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:

As the Brits would say, that is somewhat of a "sticky wicket". See, thing=
s
like cables, magic pens, mrytlewood blocks and special rocks et al, are v=
ery
high profit items and I'm sure most shops have to carry them in order to =
meet
the "needs" of their customers, many of which probably believe that these
snake-oil nostrums actually do something positive to their stereo systems=
.. It
doesn't actually follow that these dealers (1) believe in the efficacy of
this junk themselves, or (2) that a belief in this audio voo-doo
automatically disqualifies a dealer for having the skill-set available th=
at
allows them to do a good job pairing arms and cartridges or installing th=
em.

It's not just a question of knowledge, it's also a question of
integrity. Say you've got a dealer who's willing to tell you that
mounting your CD player on little rubber feet will improve the sound.
Do you really think he's going to have any qualms about selling you a
cartridge that's a poor match for your tonearm?

Scott's proposition is that there's no problem because you can trust a
reliable dealer to steer you in the right direction. Given the state
of the high-end business, I think that is woefully naive.

More likely, the lack of this skill set is due to the proliferation of
digital sources over the last 25 years having supplanted the need for aud=
io
sales and technical personnel to know about turntables and the other minu=
tia
of vinyl playback. Those who DID know how to do this correctly are now
approaching retirement age and only a few younger people have undertaken =
to
learn it. =A0

The impression I get is that much if not most dealer knowledge comes
from the distributors they deal with. So this problem might be dealt
with if sales reps are telling dealers, "These are the cartridges that
mate well with our turntables." But I don't know whether that's
happening either.

bob

[Scott[_6_]]

On Oct 6, 7:23=A0am, bob wrote:
On Oct 5, 8:19=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:



As the Brits would say, that is somewhat of a "sticky wicket". See, thi=
ngs
like cables, magic pens, mrytlewood blocks and special rocks et al, are=
very
high profit items and I'm sure most shops have to carry them in order t=
o meet
the "needs" of their customers, many of which probably believe that the=
se
snake-oil nostrums actually do something positive to their stereo syste=
ms. It
doesn't actually follow that these dealers (1) believe in the efficacy =
of
this junk themselves, or (2) that a belief in this audio voo-doo
automatically disqualifies a dealer for having the skill-set available =
that
allows them to do a good job pairing arms and cartridges or installing =
them.

It's not just a question of knowledge, it's also a question of
integrity. Say you've got a dealer who's willing to tell you that
mounting your CD player on little rubber feet will improve the sound.
Do you really think he's going to have any qualms about selling you a
cartridge that's a poor match for your tonearm?

Yes I do. If a dealer knowingly sells tweeks that have *NO* effect he
is dishonest and lacks integrity. But the customer will likely be
happy with the purchase and not come back for a return. And if he does
come back for a return it's no big deal. OTOH if he sells you a
cartridge that is a mismatch to your arm or visa versa there are
consequences. Good chance that customer is coming back with major
complaints about mistracking. In that case the dealer has to do more
work and can no longer sell the item as new. AND it would have been
just as easy if not easier to sell something that is compatable and
set it up correctly and not have the customer come back with problems.
So yeah, I think such a dealer actually would have a very good reason
not to sell such a mismatch.



Scott's proposition is that there's no problem because you can trust a
reliable dealer to steer you in the right direction. Given the state
of the high-end business, I think that is woefully naive.

My proposition is that the alleged arm/cartridge resonance crisis is a
nonevent. So far no one who claims it is a genuine concern has been
able to cite one incident.



More likely, the lack of this skill set is due to the proliferation of
digital sources over the last 25 years having supplanted the need for a=
udio
sales and technical personnel to know about turntables and the other mi=
nutia
of vinyl playback. Those who DID know how to do this correctly are now
approaching retirement age and only a few younger people have undertake=
n to
learn it. =A0

The impression I get is that much if not most dealer knowledge comes
from the distributors they deal with. So this problem might be dealt
with if sales reps are telling dealers, "These are the cartridges that
mate well with our turntables." But I don't know whether that's
happening either.


Indeed you don't know. But what would you do? Offer some basic
information or wait for the returns?
The thing is such mismatches have consequences so there is plenty
incentive to figure this stuff out if you are a dealer who sells these
things and/or does TT set up.

By the way Cartridge/turntable compatatbility is an entirely different
issue and can come up with the some of Grado cartridges. All the
dealers I have ever spoken with who carry the Grados are well aware of
these particular issues. This however is one mismatch that I have seen
pop up for folks who bought without the dealer.

[Audio Empire]

On Thu, 6 Oct 2011 09:39:38 -0700, Scott wrote
(in article ):
On Oct 6, 7:23*am, bob wrote:
On Oct 5, 8:19*pm, Audio Empire wrote:

snip

Scott's proposition is that there's no problem because you can trust a
reliable dealer to steer you in the right direction. Given the state
of the high-end business, I think that is woefully naive.

My proposition is that the alleged arm/cartridge resonance crisis is a
nonevent. So far no one who claims it is a genuine concern has been
able to cite one incident.

I don't think that's the point. We seem to have gotten-off on a tangent about
dealers here. I get to "test" a lot of cartridges and I always have, it
seems, three or four laying around. They all require different masses to give
them the correct resonance of 8-12 Hz or to keep them from having muddy bass
(with a resonance in the 20 Hz range). Neither arms or cartridges come with
any compatibility information. Certainly, if you know what you are doing, and
have the tools, it's not really that big of a deal to add mass (I use .177
caliber pellet gun pellets and double sided tape), but I know HOW to do this
and have a both a CBS Labs, an Orion, and a Hi-Fi News test record and an HP
audio voltmeter to help me determine the proper mass to add. But how many
audiophiles have these tools? How many no how to use them? How many know that
there might be a need to use them at all?


More likely, the lack of this skill set is due to the proliferation of
digital sources over the last 25 years having supplanted the need for audio
sales and technical personnel to know about turntables and the other minutia
of vinyl playback. Those who DID know how to do this correctly are now
approaching retirement age and only a few younger people have undertaken to
learn it.

The impression I get is that much if not most dealer knowledge comes
from the distributors they deal with. So this problem might be dealt
with if sales reps are telling dealers, "These are the cartridges that
mate well with our turntables." But I don't know whether that's
happening either.


Indeed you don't know. But what would you do? Offer some basic
information or wait for the returns?
The thing is such mismatches have consequences so there is plenty
incentive to figure this stuff out if you are a dealer who sells these
things and/or does TT set up.

By the way Cartridge/turntable compatatbility is an entirely different
issue and can come up with the some of Grado cartridges. All the
dealers I have ever spoken with who carry the Grados are well aware of
these particular issues. This however is one mismatch that I have seen
pop up for folks who bought without the dealer.


What issue do you refer to? I use a Grado Reference Master1 currently and
find it quite neutral sounding with really low distortion and excellent
tracking.

[Audio Empire]

On Thu, 6 Oct 2011 07:23:56 -0700, bob wrote
(in article ):

On Oct 5, 8:19pm, Audio Empire wrote:

As the Brits would say, that is somewhat of a "sticky wicket". See, things
like cables, magic pens, mrytlewood blocks and special rocks et al, are very
high profit items and I'm sure most shops have to carry them in order to meet
the "needs" of their customers, many of which probably believe that these
snake-oil nostrums actually do something positive to their stereo systems. It
doesn't actually follow that these dealers (1) believe in the efficacy of
this junk themselves, or (2) that a belief in this audio voo-doo
automatically disqualifies a dealer for having the skill-set available that
allows them to do a good job pairing arms and cartridges or installing them.

It's not just a question of knowledge, it's also a question of
integrity. Say you've got a dealer who's willing to tell you that
mounting your CD player on little rubber feet will improve the sound.
Do you really think he's going to have any qualms about selling you a
cartridge that's a poor match for your tonearm?

Not at all, but that's a separate issue. I merely meant that there is not
necessarily any correlation between a dealer's acceptance of audio mythology
(in order to sell the stuff to customers who want it) and his ability to
correctly pair a cartridge with an arm or his technical expertise at properly
installing said cartridge.

Scott's proposition is that there's no problem because you can trust a
reliable dealer to steer you in the right direction. Given the state
of the high-end business, I think that is woefully naive.

It may be. Most stereo dealers, nowadays, don't sell many turntables (if they
carry any at all) and the knowledge may simply not exist at many shops.

More likely, the lack of this skill set is due to the proliferation of
digital sources over the last 25 years having supplanted the need for audio
sales and technical personnel to know about turntables and the other minutia
of vinyl playback. Those who DID know how to do this correctly are now
approaching retirement age and only a few younger people have undertaken to
learn it.

The impression I get is that much if not most dealer knowledge comes
from the distributors they deal with. So this problem might be dealt
with if sales reps are telling dealers, "These are the cartridges that
mate well with our turntables." But I don't know whether that's
happening either.

Neither do I.

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"bob" wrote in message
...
On Oct 4, 11:11 pm, Audio Empire wrote:

You certainly have a point there. While there are retailers who know
vinyl
and are qualified to recommend arm/cartridge combinations (and can even
properly install them), my take is that they are few and far between.
'Jerry
Raksin's Needle Doctor' has the reputation of doing a good job at this
and
will professionally install a cartridge in a turntable package as can
'The
Audio Advisor', 'Music Direct', and 'The Elusive Disc', et al (at least
with
the packages they sell), but these people are mail-order. From talking to
the
folks at most local shops, I'm not sure I'd trust most of them to
properly
install a cartridge (or even suggest proper matchings), as I've seen no
evidence that they posses any special competence with record playing
equipment, if they sell it at all. In the SF Bay Area, where I live,
there is
a dealer called the "Analog Room' who know their stuff, but they are
about
the only dealer I know that exhibits any real vinyl expertise.

I'm sure there are dealers who know this stuff. I'm sure there are
others who don't. The question is, how is the consumer to tell,
without developing the very expertise in question? At which point, of
course, you know longer need the dealer's advice.

Also, there seem to be many opportunities for any local dealer to be out of
the loop when cartridges are ordered and installed. Is there not a common
scenario where someone reads a glowing review of the next new magic
cartridge and runs right out on the internet and buys it? Don't they often
install it themselves when it shows up on their front porch?


And given what else they sell and promote--magic cables, magic pens,
magic stones--I'm mystified as to why we should trust any such dealer
to be right about anything related to audio.

Good point. I stopped believing dealers over 40 years ago. They all talked
mucho ignorant trash. I haven't bought anything from a brick and mortar home
audio store this millenium. I don't think I've even darkened the door of one
with my shadow during that time.

[Audio Empire]

On Thu, 6 Oct 2011 06:03:57 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):
"bob" wrote in message
...

snip

I'm sure there are dealers who know this stuff. I'm sure there are
others who don't. The question is, how is the consumer to tell,
without developing the very expertise in question? At which point, of
course, you know longer need the dealer's advice.

Also, there seem to be many opportunities for any local dealer to be out of
the loop when cartridges are ordered and installed. Is there not a common
scenario where someone reads a glowing review of the next new magic
cartridge and runs right out on the internet and buys it? Don't they often
install it themselves when it shows up on their front porch?

Yes, and most don't ever think about whether or not their arm is compatible.
I can tell you that if they ARE compatible, it's generally an accident of
happenstance.

And given what else they sell and promote--magic cables, magic pens,
magic stones--I'm mystified as to why we should trust any such dealer
to be right about anything related to audio.

Good point. I stopped believing dealers over 40 years ago. They all talked
mucho ignorant trash. I haven't bought anything from a brick and mortar home
audio store this millenium. I don't think I've even darkened the door of one
with my shadow during that time.


Suffice it to say, then, that you are blissfully ignorant of the how the
latest speakers sound? Because listening at either an audio show (rare) or a
dealer is about the only way we get hear the latest speaker technology. Me, I
don't care what the dealer uses to interconnect components. Wire is wire. As
long as the cabling used isn't some kind of "active" nonsense or has boxes
full of outboard components built into them so that they act like filters,
they are going to all sound the same.

I go to dealers to hear the latest stuff and to generally keep-up. If you
don't do that, you can have no idea about the strides that have been made in
speaker technology in the last few years (electronics? Not so much.).

[Roger Kulp]

On Oct 4, 9:11=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:
On Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:11:19 -0700, bob wrote
(in article ):

On Oct 3, 7:07=3DA0am, Scott wrote:

Or if they have a dealer who actually understands the basics of vinyl
playback. They are easy to find.

Seriously? Trust in the knowledge of the same dealers who think cable
at $100/ft. makes a difference? The last dealer I talked to about
turntables tried to sell me a green pen for my CDs.

If consumers are dependent on those clowns, they haven't a chance.

bob

You certainly have a point there. While there are retailers who know viny=
l
and are qualified to recommend arm/cartridge combinations (and can even
properly install them), my take is that they are few and far between. 'Je=
rry
Raksin's Needle Doctor' has the reputation of doing a good job at this an=
d
will professionally install a cartridge in a turntable package as can 'Th=
e
Audio Advisor', 'Music Direct', and 'The Elusive Disc', et al (at least w=
ith
the packages they sell), but these people are mail-order. From talking to=
the
folks at most =A0local shops, I'm not sure I'd trust most of them to prop=
erly
install a cartridge (or even suggest proper matchings), as I've seen no
evidence that they posses any special competence with record playing
equipment, if they sell it at all. In the SF Bay Area, where I live, ther=
e is
a dealer called the "Analog Room' who know their stuff, but they are abou=
t
the only dealer I know that exhibits any real vinyl expertise.

I think the average vinyl owner would do a lot better to either buy a com=
pete
manufacturer's ensemble, with cartridge preinstalled, or to learn the bas=
ics
and select and install the cartridge one's self.

=A0Of course, it would be nice if the manufacturers could make this selec=
tion
process easier with some kind of standardized matching nomenclature. 8^)

As usual, I have no connection with any of these aforementioned dealers, =
etc.

Fascinating thread.I've actually learned a good bit from it,but as you
say,there are a very limited number of dealers,who actually know their
stuff about analog and vinyl.Far too many people who want get into
serious listening of same,are often left to their own devices,and buy
a used,or vintage setup on the web,with no idea how to properly set it
up,align cartridges,etc.I don't know of anybody who is really into
vinyl,as an audiophile medium,who takes Fremer,or anybody Stereophile
seriously.I think at this point,most people just let him blather on
about whatever he wants,and completely ignore him.

Roger

[Audio Empire]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 03:56:50 -0700, Roger Kulp wrote
(in article ):
snip

Fascinating thread.I've actually learned a good bit from it,but as you
say,there are a very limited number of dealers,who actually know their
stuff about analog and vinyl.Far too many people who want get into
serious listening of same,are often left to their own devices,and buy
a used,or vintage setup on the web,with no idea how to properly set it
up,align cartridges,etc.I don't know of anybody who is really into
vinyl,as an audiophile medium,who takes Fremer,or anybody Stereophile
seriously.I think at this point,most people just let him blather on
about whatever he wants,and completely ignore him.

Roger



You need to take just about everything you read in almost any "buff" magazine
(hi-fi, model trains, planes or automobiles, , cars, guns, you name it) with
a grain of salt unless it's an actual technical article or do-it-yourself
piece (like that piece that ran in one of the audio rags recently about how
to refurbish an old Garrard 301/401 turntable, complete with where to buy the
replacement parts. That's actual, useful info if you've an old Garrad 301 or
401). The rest is just opinion. Like I've said before, these magazines are
meant as entertainment. Any actual information that one might glean from
these articles and reviews is purely ancillary to that purpose. Read 'em for
fun. Read 'em to hear about new equipment. Even read 'em to compile short
lists for your next purchase But don't make decisions based upon what you
read in them. I think that you would be surprised how many people do just
that!

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article , bob
wrote:

On Oct 3, 7:07*am, Scott wrote:

Or if they have a dealer who actually understands the basics of vinyl
playback. They are easy to find.

Seriously? Trust in the knowledge of the same dealers who think cable
at $100/ft. makes a difference? The last dealer I talked to about
turntables tried to sell me a green pen for my CDs.

Salespeople sell things. It's the same mentality that tells you that
using their toothpaste will get you a prettier mate, or buying their car
will make you feel like your penis is larger. I don't like it, but
that's reality.

--
www.jennifermartinmusic.com

[Scott[_6_]]

On Oct 4, 4:11=A0pm, bob wrote:
On Oct 3, 7:07=A0am, wrote:



Orif they haveadealer whoactually understands the basics of vinyl play=
back. Theyare easy to find.

Seriously? Trustin the knowledge of the same dealers who think cableat $1=
00/ft. makesadifference? The last dealerItalked toaboutturntables tried to =
sell meagreen pen for my CDs.

If consumersare dependent on those clowns, they haven'tachance.

bob

So which dealers selling high end TT rigs do you know of have been
selling mismatched arm/cartridfge combos?