[Arny Krueger]

"Scott" wrote in message


Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.

Yes. However another irreducable problem - the non-flatness of the vinyl
causes FM distortion with high enough frequency content to qualify as
flutter.

There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass modulation and tone
arms that are not linear tracking.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only be noticable
to those who, for whatever reason, are very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.

We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time. This suggests to me
that there must be some kind of highly selective hearing disorder that
causes people to have substandard levels of sensitivity to FM distoriton.

I don't know of
anyone who wishes to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of
their playback though.

From the standpoint of those of us who are so sensitive to FM distortion
that we avoid LPs playback whereever possible, we tend to see those who
listen to LPs that have been reissued as good CDs as being in the category
of people who wish to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of their playback.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 2, 6:10=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.

Yes. However another irreducable problem - the non-flatness of the vinyl
causes FM distortion with high enough frequency content to qualify as
flutter.

There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass modulation and tone
arms that are not linear tracking.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only be noticable
to those who, for whatever reason, are very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.

We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time.

This suggests to me
that there must be some kind of highly selective hearing disorder that
causes people to have substandard levels of sensitivity to FM distoriton.

It would be interesting to put your ability to the test under blind
conditions to hear all those nasty distortions on a real high end
player with a quality LP. I know that will never happen but my money
would be against you. And you wonder why some of us think you have a
severe prejudice against vinyl? Do show us the peer reviewed published
literature that supports this nonsense about those of us with this
alleged "hearing disorder."


I don't know of
anyone who wishes to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of
their playback though.
From the standpoint of those of us who are so sensitive to FM distortion

that we avoid LPs playback whereever possible, we tend to see those who
listen to LPs that have been reissued as good CDs as being in the categor=
y
of people who wish to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of their playback=

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott" wrote in message


It would be interesting to put your ability to the test
under blind conditions to hear all those nasty
distortions on a real high end player with a quality LP.

It's already been done, and it is a slam dunk.

The LP format audible mangles any music that you record on it.

Here's the challenge. Produce 2 CDs. One of the finished recording that
will be mastered to LP, and one of the best possible transcription of that
recording from a LP made from the same master as was used to make the CD. It
is easy to show that a CD can easily be a sonically transparent copy of the
original master *and* the LP playback. It is easy to show that the digital
transcription of the LP will not produce random guessing in an ABX
comparison of the two. They won't sound just a little different.

I've already come as close to doing this comparison as I could with the
resources available to me, years ago. If you want to try to reduce me to
random guessing, then its up to you to find better resources. Once you have
produced your new, improved evidence, then I will sucessfully ABX them with
an audience of witnesses.

I am confident that if you collect this evidence, you will first listen to
them yourself and you will be so disappointed that you will never send it to
me.

I know that will never happen but my money would be
against you.

You already lost the bet.

And you wonder why some of us think you have
a severe prejudice against vinyl?

I wonder about claims that are so easily falsified.

Do show us the peer
reviewed published literature that supports this nonsense
about those of us with this alleged "hearing disorder."

The formal, peer-reviewed literature of the irreducable audible distortion
that inherent in vinyl was published in the JAES and IEEE proceedings back
in the days when vinyl was all we had. I've cited it here many times.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 3, 12:10=A0pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



It would be interesting to put your ability to the test
under blind conditions to hear all those nasty
distortions on a real high end player with a quality LP.

It's already been done, and it is a slam dunk.

Please excuse my skepticism but you haven't done it with my rig and my
records. If you can identify those distortions by ear with my stuff I
will certainly concede the point. I just don't have any faith in your
alleged "slam dunk." When you "dunk on me" then you can do a little
NBA style trash talkin. Till then it's just talkin.


The LP format audible mangles any music that you record on it.

Here's the challenge. Produce 2 CDs. =A0One of the finished recording tha=
t
will be mastered to LP, and one of the best possible transcription of tha=
t
recording from a LP made from the same master as was used to make the CD.=
It
is easy to show that a CD can easily be a sonically transparent copy of t=
he
original master *and* the LP playback. It is easy to show that the digita=
l
transcription of the LP will not produce random guessing in an ABX
comparison of the two. =A0They won't sound just a little different.

I've already come as close to doing this comparison as I could with the
resources available to me, years ago. If you want to try to reduce me to
random guessing, then its up to you to find better resources. =A0Once you=
have
produced your new, improved evidence, then I will sucessfully ABX them wi=
th
an audience of witnesses.

I am confident that if you collect this evidence, you will first listen t=
o
them yourself and you will be so disappointed that you will never send it=
to
me.

How about this for a challenge. When I get the system out of storage
after I make the big move, I record several of my LPs on my rig on
24/96 and then down load some CDs. Let's say twenty samples. Then you,
by ear, identify which ones are vinyl and which ones are not. I mean
if they are as distorted as you say you should get 20 out of 20 but
I'd be willing to set the bar at 16 correct answers as proof that you
really can hear those distortions even on my system with my LPs of
choice.


I know that will never happen but my money would be
against you.

You already lost the bet.

No we haven't got to the bet. If you want to make my challenge
interesting feel free to make me a proposition. As for now the
challenge is for bragging rights. Show me you can identify vinyl by
ear because of these distortions on my rig with my LPs and you win.
Should be easy no?


And you wonder why some of us think you have
a severe prejudice against vinyl?

I wonder about claims that are so easily falsified.

Well my claim is you will fail in the test I am proposing. Wanna
"falsify" it?


Do show us the peer
reviewed published literature that supports this nonsense
about those of us with this alleged "hearing disorder."

The formal, peer-reviewed literature of the irreducable audible distortio=
n
that inherent in vinyl was published in the JAES and IEEE proceedings bac=
k
in the days when vinyl was all we had. I've cited it here many times.

Sorry but that is a no show.

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott" wrote in message

On Aug 3, 12:10 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



It would be interesting to put your ability to the test
under blind conditions to hear all those nasty
distortions on a real high end player with a quality LP.

It's already been done, and it is a slam dunk.

Please excuse my skepticism but you haven't done it with
my rig and my records.

If that's the only valid criteria for you, I'm very happy to bow out.

[Audio Empire]

On Wed, 4 Aug 2010 06:41:42 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message

On Aug 3, 12:10 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



It would be interesting to put your ability to the test
under blind conditions to hear all those nasty
distortions on a real high end player with a quality LP.

It's already been done, and it is a slam dunk.

Please excuse my skepticism but you haven't done it with
my rig and my records.

If that's the only valid criteria for you, I'm very happy to bow out.



He probably means that you haven't done such a test with a good playback
system, optimally set-up and using decently cared-for records.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 4, 12:06=A0pm, Audio Empire wrote:
On Wed, 4 Aug 2010 06:41:42 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):


If that's the only valid criteria for you, I'm very happy to bow out.

He probably means that you haven't done such a test with a good playback
system, optimally set-up and using =A0decently cared-for records.


You are correct. The test only has merit if the equipment and LPs are
not sub par. I know my equipment and LPs are up to the task. But I
don't think that I have any exclusive on that.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 4, 6:41=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



On Aug 3, 12:10 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



It would be interesting to put your ability to the test
under blind conditions to hear all those nasty
distortions on a real high end player with a quality LP.

It's already been done, and it is a slam dunk.

Please excuse my skepticism but you haven't done it with
my rig and my records.

If that's the only valid criteria for you, I'm very happy to bow out.

It's not the only valid criteria but it was the most convenient. I
would accept anything in the same ball park. but I expect you to bow
out no matter what.

[Audio Empire]

On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:10:00 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message


Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.

Yes. However another irreducable problem - the non-flatness of the vinyl
causes FM distortion with high enough frequency content to qualify as
flutter.

There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass modulation and tone
arms that are not linear tracking.

Actually, the distortions caused by properly designed and set-up radial
tracking arms turns out to be negligible, and the advantages of linear
tracking turn out to be a tertiary effect.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only be noticable
to those who, for whatever reason, are very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.

We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time. This suggests to me
that there must be some kind of highly selective hearing disorder that
causes people to have substandard levels of sensitivity to FM distoriton.

It's not any more of a disorder than the ability of concert goers to listen
"around" sneezes and coughs and program rattling that occurs constantly
during most concerts.

I don't know of
anyone who wishes to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of
their playback though.

From the standpoint of those of us who are so sensitive to FM distortion
that we avoid LPs playback whereever possible, we tend to see those who
listen to LPs that have been reissued as good CDs as being in the category
of people who wish to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of their playback.

Then you'd be wrong. Most vinyl listeners don't listen to records that are
warped, eccentric, of full of FM distortion. I know that I don't.

[Arny Krueger]

"Audio Empire" wrote in message

On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:10:00 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message


Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.

Yes. However another irreducable problem - the
non-flatness of the vinyl causes FM distortion with high
enough frequency content to qualify as flutter.

There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass
modulation and tone arms that are not linear tracking.

Actually, the distortions caused by properly designed and
set-up radial tracking arms turns out to be negligible,
and the advantages of linear tracking turn out to be a
tertiary effect.

Actually, the distortions produced by LP playback systems incorporating the
best designed
tone arms that utilize any technology turns out to be readily audible.

Whether a given person perceives these potentially audible distoritons is up
to them, but if they fail to perceive them then they are somehow missing
spurious responses that are well above the normal human thesholds for
reliable perception of linear and nonlinear distortion.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only
be noticable
to those who, for whatever reason, are very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.

We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time.
This suggests to me that there must be some kind of
highly selective hearing disorder that causes people to
have substandard levels of sensitivity to FM distortion.

It's not any more of a disorder than the ability of
concert goers to listen "around" sneezes and coughs and
program rattling that occurs constantly during most
concerts.

Coughs and sneezes at concerts are relatively infrequent, while the
potentially audible noise and distortion that is inherent in vinyl is
unending. It starts when the needle is dropped and it continues until it is
lifted up. To enjoy vinyl you have to listen past the ongoing racket of
potentially readily audible noise and distortion.

I don't know of
anyone who wishes to *add* wow or flutter to the sound
of
their playback though.

From the standpoint of those of us who are so sensitive
to FM distortion
that we avoid LPs playback wherever possible, we tend
to see those who listen to LPs that have been reissued
as good CDs as being in the category of people who wish
to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of their playback.

Then you'd be wrong. Most vinyl listeners don't listen to
records that are warped, eccentric, of full of FM
distortion. I know that I don't.

Whether you perceive this ongoing racket or not is up to you, but it is very
easy to measure this noise and distortion using legacy measurement equipment
that finds modern media to be free of distortion.

[Audio Empire]

On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 12:09:25 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Audio Empire" wrote in message

On Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:10:00 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message


Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.

Yes. However another irreducable problem - the
non-flatness of the vinyl causes FM distortion with high
enough frequency content to qualify as flutter.

There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass
modulation and tone arms that are not linear tracking.

Actually, the distortions caused by properly designed and
set-up radial tracking arms turns out to be negligible,
and the advantages of linear tracking turn out to be a
tertiary effect.

Actually, the distortions produced by LP playback systems incorporating the
best designed
tone arms that utilize any technology turns out to be readily audible.

Whether a given person perceives these potentially audible distoritons is up
to them, but if they fail to perceive them then they are somehow missing
spurious responses that are well above the normal human thesholds for
reliable perception of linear and nonlinear distortion.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only
be noticable
to those who, for whatever reason, are very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.

We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time.
This suggests to me that there must be some kind of
highly selective hearing disorder that causes people to
have substandard levels of sensitivity to FM distortion.

It's not any more of a disorder than the ability of
concert goers to listen "around" sneezes and coughs and
program rattling that occurs constantly during most
concerts.

Coughs and sneezes at concerts are relatively infrequent, while the
potentially audible noise and distortion that is inherent in vinyl is
unending. It starts when the needle is dropped and it continues until it is
lifted up. To enjoy vinyl you have to listen past the ongoing racket of
potentially readily audible noise and distortion.

I don't know of
anyone who wishes to *add* wow or flutter to the sound
of
their playback though.

From the standpoint of those of us who are so sensitive
to FM distortion
that we avoid LPs playback wherever possible, we tend
to see those who listen to LPs that have been reissued
as good CDs as being in the category of people who wish
to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of their playback.

Then you'd be wrong. Most vinyl listeners don't listen to
records that are warped, eccentric, of full of FM
distortion. I know that I don't.

Whether you perceive this ongoing racket or not is up to you, but it is very
easy to measure this noise and distortion using legacy measurement equipment
that finds modern media to be free of distortion.



Then if it's not perceived, It's not important is it? Unless of course the
knowledge that it MIGHT be there ruins your ability to sit back and enjoy the
music. I don't have that prejudice. Perhaps if you had taken better care of
your records, you wouldn't be complaining about "...audible noise and
distortion" starting..." "...when the needle is dropped and it continues
until it is lifted up.To enjoy vinyl you have to listen past the ongoing
racket of potentially readily audible noise and distortion." My records are
quiet, (aside from the VERY OCCASIONAL tick or pop and tape hiss on the older
recordings) as well as flat and concentric. There is no more noise than the
occasional cough or sneeze at a concert. It just is neither important nor
does it compromise my enjoyment of the music one iota.

[Arny Krueger]

"Audio Empire" wrote in message


On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 12:09:25 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Audio Empire" wrote in
message

Then you'd be wrong. Most vinyl listeners don't listen
to records that are warped, eccentric, of full of FM
distortion. I know that I don't.

You have no choice.

Whether you perceive this ongoing racket or not is up to
you, but it is very easy to measure this noise and
distortion using legacy measurement equipment that finds
modern media to be free of distortion.

Then if it's not perceived, It's not important is it?

This would appear to be an adjunct of the McDonalds argument - if you can't
perceive the benefits of a better-made product, then it must not be better
made?

Unless of course the knowledge that it MIGHT be there
ruins your ability to sit back and enjoy the music. I
don't have that prejudice. Perhaps if you had taken
better care of your records, you wouldn't be complaining
about "...audible noise and distortion" starting..."

The distortion and noise was there on the first playing.

My records are quiet, (aside from the VERY
OCCASIONAL tick or pop and tape hiss on the older
recordings) as well as flat and concentric.

You must be purchasing LPs on a different planet than I do.

There is no
more noise than the occasional cough or sneeze at a
concert.

Except that the cough or sneeze is a rare event, and the snap, crackle, and
pop as well as harshness and grit that is inherent in the LP format are
there all of the time.

Some of us appear to want to listen to music presented with less audible
noise and distortion than others.

[Audio Empire]

On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 16:55:05 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Audio Empire" wrote in message


On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 12:09:25 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Audio Empire" wrote in
message

Then you'd be wrong. Most vinyl listeners don't listen
to records that are warped, eccentric, of full of FM
distortion. I know that I don't.

You have no choice.

Whether you perceive this ongoing racket or not is up to
you, but it is very easy to measure this noise and
distortion using legacy measurement equipment that finds
modern media to be free of distortion.

Then if it's not perceived, It's not important is it?

This would appear to be an adjunct of the McDonalds argument - if you can't
perceive the benefits of a better-made product, then it must not be better
made?

Not at all, but if you can't hear, say, the 15, 750 Hz raster on a TV, then
you wouldn't particularly care that brand "A" had a quieter horizontal
oscillator than brand "B" would you? IOW, a difference that makes no
difference is no difference at all. Or, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Take your pick from the above aphorisms.

Unless of course the knowledge that it MIGHT be there
ruins your ability to sit back and enjoy the music. I
don't have that prejudice. Perhaps if you had taken
better care of your records, you wouldn't be complaining
about "...audible noise and distortion" starting..."

The distortion and noise was there on the first playing.

Sez you. Many do not agree that this is in any way off-putting. In fact many
believe that often, the "distortions" of which you speak so eloquently, are
euphonic in nature and actually make the performance sound MORE like real
music, not less.

My records are quiet, (aside from the VERY
OCCASIONAL tick or pop and tape hiss on the older
recordings) as well as flat and concentric.

You must be purchasing LPs on a different planet than I do.

I just take better care of the ones I have, perhaps. I don't think I've
bought a new LP in at least a decade.

There is no
more noise than the occasional cough or sneeze at a
concert.

Except that the cough or sneeze is a rare event, and the snap, crackle, and
pop as well as harshness and grit that is inherent in the LP format are
there all of the time.

Speak for your own record collection, not mine.

Some of us appear to want to listen to music presented with less audible
noise and distortion than others.

And some of us appear to be so prejudiced against vinyl, that we can't listen
to and enjoy the music unless the media carrying it meets some self-imposed
level of technical perfection.

That's everyone's prerogative, of course. Just don't make the mistake of
denigrating others for not sharing that view of the subject.

[Arny Krueger]

"Audio Empire" wrote in message


On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 16:55:05 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Audio Empire" wrote in
message

Unless of course the knowledge that it MIGHT be there
ruins your ability to sit back and enjoy the music. I
don't have that prejudice. Perhaps if you had taken
better care of your records, you wouldn't be complaining
about "...audible noise and distortion" starting..."

The distortion and noise was there on the first playing.

Sez you.

Also so say the many JAES and IEEE technical papers about the problems
associated with vinyl playback.

It's all been known for decades.

I've posted formal references to them here on numerous occasions.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 5, 4:55=A0pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

You must be purchasing LPs on a different planet than I do.

What LPs have you purchased in the last 10 years?


Except that the cough or sneeze is a rare event, and the snap, crackle, a=
nd
pop as well as harshness and grit that is inherent in the LP format are
there all of the time.

And yet you walk away when challenged to identify these and other
claimed distortions under blind conditions when real high end
equipment and high qualilty LPs are in play.


Some of us appear to want to listen to music presented with less audible
noise and distortion than others.

What music are you listening to that sounds better on the commercial
CD than any LP of the same title?

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott" wrote in message

On Aug 5, 4:55 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

You must be purchasing LPs on a different planet than I
do.

What LPs have you purchased in the last 10 years?


Except that the cough or sneeze is a rare event, and the
snap, crackle, and pop as well as harshness and grit
that is inherent in the LP format are there all of the
time.

And yet you walk away when challenged to identify these
and other claimed distortions under blind conditions when
real high end equipment and high qualilty LPs are in play.

The key word here is "real". I say that the evaluations I've done involved
real equipment, and the easy way out is to alleged that there is some
magical equipment kicking around that circumvents the laws of physics,

Some of us appear to want to listen to music presented
with less audible noise and distortion than others.

What music are you listening to that sounds better on the
commercial CD than any LP of the same title?

For openers, any music that was produced in the past 25 years, Only a
miniscule fraction of it ever made it onto LP.

[John Nunes]

On 8/2/2010 5:18 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

It's not any more of a disorder than the ability of concert goers to listen
"around" sneezes and coughs and program rattling that occurs constantly
during most concerts.

I have a lot of trouble "listening around" to a lack of one of the most
basic needs of music. It's called pitch stability. Sneezes and coughs
aren't obviously a part of the music. Screwing up the pitch stability is.

[Jenn[_2_]]

In article ,
John Nunes wrote:

On 8/2/2010 5:18 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

It's not any more of a disorder than the ability of concert goers to listen
"around" sneezes and coughs and program rattling that occurs constantly
during most concerts.

I have a lot of trouble "listening around" to a lack of one of the most
basic needs of music. It's called pitch stability. Sneezes and coughs
aren't obviously a part of the music. Screwing up the pitch stability is.

If you can detect pitch instability while using any modern turntable,
you have a malfunctioning unit.

[Audio Empire]

On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 18:40:51 -0700, Jenn wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
John Nunes wrote:

On 8/2/2010 5:18 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

It's not any more of a disorder than the ability of concert goers to listen
"around" sneezes and coughs and program rattling that occurs constantly
during most concerts.

I have a lot of trouble "listening around" to a lack of one of the most
basic needs of music. It's called pitch stability. Sneezes and coughs
aren't obviously a part of the music. Screwing up the pitch stability is.

If you can detect pitch instability while using any modern turntable,
you have a malfunctioning unit.

That's sort of my reaction as well.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 9, 4:44=A0pm, John Nunes wrote:
On 8/2/2010 5:18 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

It's not any more of a disorder than the ability of concert goers to li=
sten
"around" sneezes and coughs and program rattling that occurs constantly
during most concerts.

I have a lot of trouble "listening around" to a lack of one of the most
basic needs of music. =A0It's called pitch stability. =A0Sneezes and coug=
hs
aren't obviously a part of the music. =A0Screwing up the pitch stability =
is.

If you would like to take the challenge I issued to Arny and test your
ability to hear such instability of pitch with my LPs played back on
my gear we can try to make some arrangements.

[John Nunes]

On 8/10/2010 5:22 PM, Scott wrote:
On Aug 9, 4:44 pm, John wrote:
On 8/2/2010 5:18 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

It's not any more of a disorder than the ability of concert goers to listen
"around" sneezes and coughs and program rattling that occurs constantly
during most concerts.

I have a lot of trouble "listening around" to a lack of one of the most
basic needs of music. It's called pitch stability. Sneezes and coughs
aren't obviously a part of the music. Screwing up the pitch stability is.

If you would like to take the challenge I issued to Arny and test your
ability to hear such instability of pitch with my LPs played back on
my gear we can try to make some arrangements.

No thanks, I want to listen to my records.

http://www.regonaudio.com/NakamichiTX1000.html

[Audio Empire]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:38:38 -0700, John Nunes wrote
(in article ):

On 8/10/2010 5:22 PM, Scott wrote:
On Aug 9, 4:44 pm, John wrote:
On 8/2/2010 5:18 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

It's not any more of a disorder than the ability of concert goers to
listen
"around" sneezes and coughs and program rattling that occurs constantly
during most concerts.

I have a lot of trouble "listening around" to a lack of one of the most
basic needs of music. It's called pitch stability. Sneezes and coughs
aren't obviously a part of the music. Screwing up the pitch stability is.

If you would like to take the challenge I issued to Arny and test your
ability to hear such instability of pitch with my LPs played back on
my gear we can try to make some arrangements.

No thanks, I want to listen to my records.

http://www.regonaudio.com/NakamichiTX1000.html

You actually HAVE one of these? I read that other than it's ability to
somewhat correct eccentric records, it's not a very good turntable. Since it
doesn't correct for warp wow (as far as I remember), it only does half the
job in my opinion. Do you have any comment on the perception that it's not a
very good 'table or the fact that it doesn't correct for warps (with some
kind of vacuum hod-down)? I'd be interested in hearing the opinion of someone
who actually has one.

[John Nunes]

On 8/11/2010 4:34 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

http://www.regonaudio.com/NakamichiTX1000.html

You actually HAVE one of these?

The less expensive one, called a Dragon CT. It doesn't tell you how
much the record is off, but it corrects to the same degree.

I read that other than it's ability to
somewhat correct eccentric records, it's not a very good turntable.

Did you actually read the page I posted? Centering to .01mm is not an
"ability to somewhat correct eccentric records." (emphasis mine)

Do you believe everything you read or hear? In the highly myth laced
audio biz, that's not very wise at all.

I "heard" that if you take this bolt, and put it on the chassis, your
car will start."

;-)

Since it
doesn't correct for warp wow (as far as I remember), it only does half the
job in my opinion. Do you have any comment on the perception that it's not a
very good 'table or the fact that it doesn't correct for warps (with some
kind of vacuum hod-down)? I'd be interested in hearing the opinion of someone
who actually has one.

They are both very good tables. Just because it doesn't have cult
status in the current scheme of things doesn't mean the contrary.
Current cult status is often based on ideas that have no falsifiability
and one "just has to believe" - like religion. Been there, done that,
not satisfying, not rational, and wastes a lot of money in what can be
an already expensive hobby.

I use a soft sticky mat with a clamp to help control non-flat records.
Some are not redeemable, even with vacuum hold down. Such is life with
an obsolete, highly flawed storage medium that has a lot of music to
draw from.

[Audio Empire]

On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 16:44:12 -0700, John Nunes wrote
(in article ):

On 8/2/2010 5:18 PM, Audio Empire wrote:

It's not any more of a disorder than the ability of concert goers to listen
"around" sneezes and coughs and program rattling that occurs constantly
during most concerts.

I have a lot of trouble "listening around" to a lack of one of the most
basic needs of music. It's called pitch stability. Sneezes and coughs
aren't obviously a part of the music. Screwing up the pitch stability is.

Yessssss, and...??????? Modern turntables in good working order don't have
pitch instability and while eccentric and warped records don't, they're
pretty rare and one simply doesn't play them.

[Scott[_6_]]

On Aug 2, 6:10=A0am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.

Yes. However another irreducable problem - the non-flatness of the vinyl
causes FM distortion with high enough frequency content to qualify as
flutter.

There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass modulation and tone
arms that are not linear tracking.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only be noticable
to those who, for whatever reason, are very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.

We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time.

This suggests to me
that there must be some kind of highly selective hearing disorder that
causes people to have substandard levels of sensitivity to FM distoriton.

It would be interesting to put your ability to the test under blind
conditions to hear all those nasty distortions on a real high end
player with a quality LP. I know that will never happen but my money
would be against you. And you wonder why some of us think you have a
severe prejudice against vinyl? Do show us the peer reviewed published
literature that supports this nonsense about those of us with this
alleged "hearing disorder."


I don't know of
anyone who wishes to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of
their playback though.
From the standpoint of those of us who are so sensitive to FM distortion

that we avoid LPs playback whereever possible, we tend to see those who
listen to LPs that have been reissued as good CDs as being in the categor=
y
of people who wish to *add* wow or flutter to the sound of their playback=

[Arny Krueger]

"Scott" wrote in message

On Aug 2, 6:10=A0am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.

Yes. However another irreducable problem - the
non-flatness of the vinyl causes FM distortion with high
enough frequency content to qualify as flutter.

There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass
modulation and tone arms that are not linear tracking.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only
be noticable to those who, for whatever reason, are
very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.

We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time.

This suggests to me
that there must be some kind of highly selective hearing
disorder that causes people to have substandard levels
of sensitivity to FM distoriton.

It would be interesting to put your ability to the test
under blind conditions to hear all those nasty
distortions on a real high end player with a quality LP.

At this point you have admitted that you will only accept experiences
obtained on your personal audio system with recordings from your personal
collection.

For very obvious reasons, I have no interest in proceeding any further.

[Audio Empire]

On Wed, 4 Aug 2010 07:20:27 -0700, Arny Krueger wrote
(in article ):

"Scott" wrote in message

On Aug 2, 6:10=A0am, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:
"Scott" wrote in message



Eccentric records only introduce wow, not flutter. And
yes it is audible depending on the severity.

Yes. However another irreducable problem - the
non-flatness of the vinyl causes FM distortion with high
enough frequency content to qualify as flutter.

There there is the inherent FM distortion due to bass
modulation and tone arms that are not linear tracking.

But IME wiht most LPs it is not an issue and would only
be noticable to those who, for whatever reason, are
very very
sensitive to that sepcific problem.

We hear this from people who favor vinyl all the time.

This suggests to me
that there must be some kind of highly selective hearing
disorder that causes people to have substandard levels
of sensitivity to FM distoriton.

It would be interesting to put your ability to the test
under blind conditions to hear all those nasty
distortions on a real high end player with a quality LP.

At this point you have admitted that you will only accept experiences
obtained on your personal audio system with recordings from your personal
collection.

For very obvious reasons, I have no interest in proceeding any further.



I believe that if you read his words more carefully, you will see that he was
merely using his playback system as an example because he knows it well. I
can say the same. Listen to MY records on MY playback system and you won't
find these artifacts that you insist are endemic to all LP playback either.
I'm afraid that your prejudice in this matter has poisoned the whole well.

If all vinyl playback were as you characterize it, no one would ever listen
to records. Obviously, the picture is not as bad as you paint it. It couldn't
be and still be considered a viable market, even for a niche one.