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#1
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I am puzzled by the behavior of one of my cables, and thought perhaps
the collective wisdom of this group could help me explain it. I have a pair of essentially new 25 foot cables, made with Canare star-quad conductors and Neutrik connectors, one of which sometimes introduces so much noise that I am forced to switch it out. The noise is sometimes a 60Hz hum, and sometimes more like a buzzing sound. It always happens with the same cable, and goes away when I switch out the cable. Attempts to trouble shoot the problem have been frustrated by my inability to reproduce the problem under sufficiently controlled conditions. I have used a multimeter to check the conductors and connections, and everything appears to be in order. It puzzles me how a cable of such quality and reputed immunity to interference could have such a problem -- especially since I can eliminate the interference by replacing it with a cheap Radio Shack cable. I know the obvious (and simplest) solution would be to replace the cable. I'll probably wind up doing that, but I'm still curious about the cause. Can anyone suggest how this might happen, or how I might diagnose the problem? |
#2
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On Mar 20, 7:03 pm, Ed Anson wrote:
I am puzzled by the behavior of one of my cables, and thought perhaps the collective wisdom of this group could help me explain it. I have a pair of essentially new 25 foot cables, made with Canare star-quad conductors and Neutrik connectors, one of which sometimes introduces so much noise that I am forced to switch it out. The noise is sometimes a 60Hz hum, and sometimes more like a buzzing sound. It always happens with the same cable, and goes away when I switch out the cable. Attempts to trouble shoot the problem have been frustrated by my inability to reproduce the problem under sufficiently controlled conditions. I have used a multimeter to check the conductors and connections, and everything appears to be in order. It puzzles me how a cable of such quality and reputed immunity to interference could have such a problem -- especially since I can eliminate the interference by replacing it with a cheap Radio Shack cable. I know the obvious (and simplest) solution would be to replace the cable. I'll probably wind up doing that, but I'm still curious about the cause. Can anyone suggest how this might happen, or how I might diagnose the problem? First problem a cable starts to have is schmutz on the connectors. Clean up the XLR's, plug 'em in and out a few times. Same thing happens with many screw on mic capsules, and on some analog mixing console pots. Combination of dust and humidity creating noise. I notice this happens quite regularly in the spring and fall, as we start to switch over between seasons and the humidity increases. Spring arrived today, so maybe that's right on schedule. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#3
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Soundhaspriority wrote:
"Ed Anson" wrote in message ... I am puzzled by the behavior of one of my cables, and thought perhaps the collective wisdom of this group could help me explain it. I have a pair of essentially new 25 foot cables, made with Canare star-quad conductors and Neutrik connectors, one of which sometimes introduces so much noise that I am forced to switch it out. The noise is sometimes a 60Hz hum, and sometimes more like a buzzing sound. It always happens with the same cable, and goes away when I switch out the cable. Attempts to trouble shoot the problem have been frustrated by my inability to reproduce the problem under sufficiently controlled conditions. I have used a multimeter to check the conductors and connections, and everything appears to be in order. It puzzles me how a cable of such quality and reputed immunity to interference could have such a problem -- especially since I can eliminate the interference by replacing it with a cheap Radio Shack cable. I know the obvious (and simplest) solution would be to replace the cable. I'll probably wind up doing that, but I'm still curious about the cause. Can anyone suggest how this might happen, or how I might diagnose the problem? Ed, is only one mike affected? I ask, because if it is, it could be that the mike itself has a loose joint that is "randomly" tensioned into continuity by the slight dimensional differences of a connector. I had something like this, ironically also with a Canare, and I never tracked it down. The cables were shuffled, and the next time I used the mike, it worked fine. Bob Morein (310) 237-6511 Bob, I always use that particular cable with the same mic, so I guess that's a possibility. [Next time this happens, I'll try swapping cables between the mics and see if anything changes.] What do you mean by a "loose joint" on a mic? FWIW everything on my mic seems snug. In fact, I usually need to press rather firmly to get the XLR to click into place. Ed |
#4
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On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 21:14:49 -0400, "Soundhaspriority"
wrote: Ed, I refer to the soldering of the mike XLR to the circuit board inside the mike. And, a solder joint, either inside the cable's ends or maybe inside a mic, is the most likely culprit. Especially for a quad cable with redundant wires (pretty much rules out a "broken wire" failure). So, a bright light and a very close, critical look at the cable's solder joints are the very first avenue of attack. In fact, if you're uncertain, just reflow the solder joints - a five minute job including heating the iron. Can't hurt to look inside the mic too, if you can get it open easily. Intermittents are a beotch, but bright work lights and a shotgun approach catch a lot. As a Pope once said "Let God sort 'em out." All the best fortune, Chris Hornbeck |
#5
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Chris Hornbeck wrote:
On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 21:14:49 -0400, "Soundhaspriority" wrote: Ed, I refer to the soldering of the mike XLR to the circuit board inside the mike. And, a solder joint, either inside the cable's ends or maybe inside a mic, is the most likely culprit. Especially for a quad cable with redundant wires (pretty much rules out a "broken wire" failure). So, a bright light and a very close, critical look at the cable's solder joints are the very first avenue of attack. In fact, if you're uncertain, just reflow the solder joints - a five minute job including heating the iron. Can't hurt to look inside the mic too, if you can get it open easily. Intermittents are a beotch, but bright work lights and a shotgun approach catch a lot. As a Pope once said "Let God sort 'em out." All the best fortune, Chris Hornbeck Ok. Thanks for the suggestion. It's worth a try. I'll wait for the bright light of day and give the cable a good looking over. The mic is another matter. I doubt that I can safely access its soldered innards. Fortunately, because the problem follows the cable I think that's the more likely culprit anyway. /Ed |
#6
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Ed Anson wrote:
I have a pair of essentially new 25 foot cables, made with Canare star-quad conductors and Neutrik connectors, one of which sometimes introduces so much noise that I am forced to switch it out. The noise is sometimes a 60Hz hum, and sometimes more like a buzzing sound. It always happens with the same cable, and goes away when I switch out the cable. But the other one is fine? Popular sources for this sort of problem include soldering the pairs incorrectly (using one white and one blue on each pin for instance), grounds that are loose, or grounds that are intermittently touching the connector shell. Check for cold solder joints too. I know the obvious (and simplest) solution would be to replace the cable. I'll probably wind up doing that, but I'm still curious about the cause. Can anyone suggest how this might happen, or how I might diagnose the problem? Take the connectors off, clean them, chop off a couple inches of cable, and put them back on, so you know they are on properly. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#7
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On Mar 20, 6:03*pm, Ed Anson wrote:
I am puzzled by the behavior of one of my cables, and thought perhaps the collective wisdom of this group could help me explain it. I have a pair of essentially new 25 foot cables, made with Canare star-quad conductors and Neutrik connectors, one of which sometimes introduces so much noise that I am forced to switch it out. The noise is sometimes a 60Hz hum, and sometimes more like a buzzing sound. It always happens with the same cable, and goes away when I switch out the cable. Attempts to trouble shoot the problem have been frustrated by my inability to reproduce the problem under sufficiently controlled conditions. I have used a multimeter to check the conductors and connections, and everything appears to be in order. It puzzles me how a cable of such quality and reputed immunity to interference could have such a problem -- especially since I can eliminate the interference by replacing it with a cheap Radio Shack cable.. I know the obvious (and simplest) solution would be to replace the cable. I'll probably wind up doing that, but I'm still curious about the cause. Can anyone suggest how this might happen, or how I might diagnose the problem? This sounds suspiciously like pin 1 has been swapped with either 2 or 3 on both ends. Other than the noise the cable still "works" right ? rd |
#8
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![]() "Ed Anson" wrote in message ... I am puzzled by the behavior of one of my cables, and thought perhaps the collective wisdom of this group could help me explain it. I have a pair of essentially new 25 foot cables, made with Canare star-quad conductors and Neutrik connectors, one of which sometimes introduces so much noise that I am forced to switch it out. The noise is sometimes a 60Hz hum, and sometimes more like a buzzing sound. It always happens with the same cable, and goes away when I switch out the cable. Attempts to trouble shoot the problem have been frustrated by my inability to reproduce the problem under sufficiently controlled conditions. I have used a multimeter to check the conductors and connections, and everything appears to be in order. It puzzles me how a cable of such quality and reputed immunity to interference could have such a problem -- especially since I can eliminate the interference by replacing it with a cheap Radio Shack cable. I know the obvious (and simplest) solution would be to replace the cable. I'll probably wind up doing that, but I'm still curious about the cause. Can anyone suggest how this might happen, or how I might diagnose the problem? See if the shell has been connected to pin 1. This can cause all sorts of bad things to happen, mostly on the male end. Use a continuity tester to check between the shell and pin 1 on each end of the cable. This mostly is a concern in a building with a mic panel grounded to the building ground, but can cause trouble in other situations as well. My first cable problem like this just happened to be with Canare star-quad cable. If this is the problem, you'll have to disassemble the connector and cut the wire bridge. Good luck, jim |
#9
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"Ed Anson" wrote in message
I know the obvious (and simplest) solution would be to replace the cable. I'll probably wind up doing that, but I'm still curious about the cause. Can anyone suggest how this might happen, or how I might diagnose the problem? Cut both ends back about a foot, and re-terminate. If that doesn't do it, then throw the wire away and reuse the connectors with a new piece of wire. |
#10
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On Mar 22, 5:46 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Ed Anson" wrote in message I know the obvious (and simplest) solution would be to replace the cable. I'll probably wind up doing that, but I'm still curious about the cause. Can anyone suggest how this might happen, or how I might diagnose the problem? Cut both ends back about a foot, and re-terminate. If that doesn't do it, then throw the wire away and reuse the connectors with a new piece of wire. Last time Ed checked in, he hadn't even yet tried the simple exercise of swapping cables to see if the problem followed the cable. So chances are good the problem was simply schmutz, which is next up on the "Audio 101" troubleshooting list. When a cable is sometimes noisy and sometimes good, 9 times out of 10 it's dirt and humidity on the connectors - very simple. He didn't say it was intermittent, he said it was noisy - sometimes. Similarly, I have seen a lot of audio guys blaming analog consoles for on air noise or signal drop outs, problems I didn't have on air with the same model and vintage console - because I turn all the knobs on analog consoles I use to keep them clean. Perhaps as a result of years of doing manual recalls on consoles, I am not intimidated by the tedium. You have to "express" self cleaning pots regularly so they don't build up dirt and bite you in the butt when you go to trim a gain or change a compressor threshold, or eq something on air. And keep your audio cables clean. An Audio Assistant worth his salt should be able to determine whether a cable is broken or not in under 5 minutes. If he can't and I'm mixing, I don't feel the guy has my back. In Broadcasting some Engineers (capital "E") just throw problem cables away. Actually I have a small collection of them I rescued from the trash in my garage.... Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#11
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RD Jones wrote:
On Mar 20, 6:03 pm, Ed Anson wrote: I am puzzled by the behavior of one of my cables, and thought perhaps the collective wisdom of this group could help me explain it. I have a pair of essentially new 25 foot cables, made with Canare star-quad conductors and Neutrik connectors, one of which sometimes introduces so much noise that I am forced to switch it out. The noise is sometimes a 60Hz hum, and sometimes more like a buzzing sound. It always happens with the same cable, and goes away when I switch out the cable. Attempts to trouble shoot the problem have been frustrated by my inability to reproduce the problem under sufficiently controlled conditions. I have used a multimeter to check the conductors and connections, and everything appears to be in order. It puzzles me how a cable of such quality and reputed immunity to interference could have such a problem -- especially since I can eliminate the interference by replacing it with a cheap Radio Shack cable. I know the obvious (and simplest) solution would be to replace the cable. I'll probably wind up doing that, but I'm still curious about the cause. Can anyone suggest how this might happen, or how I might diagnose the problem? This sounds suspiciously like pin 1 has been swapped with either 2 or 3 on both ends. Other than the noise the cable still "works" right ? rd Good call! After checking for bad solder joints, etc. I took a closer look. Sure enough, this particular cable is wired with the shield to pin 2 on both ends. I guess that would make it somewhat susceptible to interference. This is disappointing, since I purchased the cable ready made because I don't trust my own skills for making cables. Perhaps I should reconsider that. At least in this case it looks like I have some soldering to do. Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions. Ed |
#12
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Ed Anson wrote:
Good call! After checking for bad solder joints, etc. I took a closer look. Sure enough, this particular cable is wired with the shield to pin 2 on both ends. I guess that would make it somewhat susceptible to interference. This is disappointing, since I purchased the cable ready made because I don't trust my own skills for making cables. Perhaps I should reconsider that. At least in this case it looks like I have some soldering to do. I strongly recommend making your own cables, because then you have only yourself to blame. Or, have them made by a legitimate company like Gepco or Markertek that actually does quality control. I have seen so much crap on MI-store cable... including my personal favorite, a cable which had one red wire soldered to pin 3 on one connector... and one white wire soldered to pin 2 on the other connector... and somewhere in the middle of the cable each wire disappeared. Clearly it was a production error making the original cable... but it got on the bench, and the soldering guy didn't seem to mind that there was something very badly wrong. That cable was from Samson but it could have been from any one of a number of companies that all buy from the same sources.... --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#13
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
Ed Anson wrote: Good call! After checking for bad solder joints, etc. I took a closer look. Sure enough, this particular cable is wired with the shield to pin 2 on both ends. I guess that would make it somewhat susceptible to interference. This is disappointing, since I purchased the cable ready made because I don't trust my own skills for making cables. Perhaps I should reconsider that. At least in this case it looks like I have some soldering to do. I strongly recommend making your own cables, because then you have only yourself to blame. Or, have them made by a legitimate company like Gepco or Markertek that actually does quality control. I have seen so much crap on MI-store cable... including my personal favorite, a cable which had one red wire soldered to pin 3 on one connector... and one white wire soldered to pin 2 on the other connector... and somewhere in the middle of the cable each wire disappeared. Clearly it was a production error making the original cable... but it got on the bench, and the soldering guy didn't seem to mind that there was something very badly wrong. That cable was from Samson but it could have been from any one of a number of companies that all buy from the same sources.... --scott Scott, you make a good point. Still, I resist making my own cables because I seem to have ten thumbs. Whenever I have tried making a cable, the result was always a mess. I tend to nick the insulation and/or conductor, or worse. Since this particular cable is already bad, I'll risk trying to fix it. At least I won't be stripping insulation, which is the most problematic part of the process for me. Next time I need a cable, I'll check out Gepco or Markertek. Thanks for the suggestion. /Ed |
#14
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Ed Anson wrote:
Scott, you make a good point. Still, I resist making my own cables because I seem to have ten thumbs. Whenever I have tried making a cable, the result was always a mess. I tend to nick the insulation and/or conductor, or worse. Since this particular cable is already bad, I'll risk trying to fix it. At least I won't be stripping insulation, which is the most problematic part of the process for me. If you are having trouble doing this, it might be the tools. You need a small stripper (20g and down) to do the individual wires, and a larger one to do the jacket. Spend the money for at least the Xilite or Klein grade strippers... stay away from the cheap crap they sell at the hardware store. The key is to use the right hole in the stripper so that the hole is just a little bigger than the conductors. If you do that, you can pull the wire out straight without nicking anything. If you have the wrong hole, it's a lot more work to pull and the chances of nicking the conductor are a lot higher. Cheap strippers may not have the right hole at all. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#15
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On Mar 23, 2:59*pm, Ed Anson wrote:
Good call! After checking for bad solder joints, etc. I took a closer look. Sure enough, this particular cable is wired with the shield to pin 2 on both ends. I guess that would make it somewhat susceptible to interference. This might be a worst case scenario, because the cable will test good with a continuity check with a meter or a cable tester. But you no longer have a twisted pair or a shield. Even a naked twisted pair with no shield at all will provide some rejection of noise assuming properly balanced connections at both ends. (although phantom will no longer work) rd |
#16
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Ed Anson wrote:
Scott, you make a good point. Still, I resist making my own cables because I seem to have ten thumbs. Whenever I have tried making a cable, the result was always a mess. I tend to nick the insulation and/or conductor, or worse. Since this particular cable is already bad, I'll risk trying to fix it. At least I won't be stripping insulation, which is the most problematic part of the process for me. I find it's often better to just cut back a bit and start fresh since multiple applications of heat can cause the insulation on some wire to get thin. On Mar 23, 4:32 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: If you are having trouble doing this, it might be the tools. *You need a small stripper (20g and down) to do the individual wires, and a larger one to do the jacket. *Spend the money for at least the Xilite or Klein grade strippers... stay away from the cheap crap they sell at the hardware store. The key is to use the right hole in the stripper so that the hole is just a little bigger than the conductors. *If you do that, you can pull the wire out straight without nicking anything. *If you have the wrong hole, it's a lot more work to pull and the chances of nicking the conductor are a lot higher. *Cheap strippers may not have the right hole at all. A Panavice is a great tool, or a piece of equipment with the mating jack to hold the connector, and a pair of "helping hands" to hold wires in place. http://www.pro-audio-warehouse.com/12-051.html rd |
#17
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Ed Anson wrote:
Scott, you make a good point. Still, I resist making my own cables because I seem to have ten thumbs. Whenever I have tried making a cable, the result was always a mess. I tend to nick the insulation and/or conductor, or worse. Since this particular cable is already bad, I'll risk trying to fix it. At least I won't be stripping insulation, which is the most problematic part of the process for me. It helps enormously to have the proper tools for this and that they be of reasonably high quality. I went for years screwing around with a few cheap tools then last year equipped myself with real tools (to build a tube guitar amp). Making cables is now an easy and enjoyable activity. Paul P |
#18
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Scott Dorsey wrote:
The key is to use the right hole in the stripper so that the hole is just a little bigger than the conductors. If you do that, you can pull the wire out straight without nicking anything. If you have the wrong hole, it's a lot more work to pull and the chances of nicking the conductor are a lot higher. Cheap strippers may not have the right hole at all. The strippers that first clamp onto the wire before the cutters then close on the insulation and remove it is a fanastic tool to have. I couldn't live without it anymore. I bought this one by Gardner Bender from a local big box hardware store : http://www.hardwareworld.com/Automat...r-pGJXL4L.aspx I converted my house to electric baseboard heating and built an amp and made a bunch of cables and the tool is still working fine. Or you could spend a fortune and get a Klein : http://www.mytoolstore.com/klein/11062.html It's probably better quality, at least I hope it is. Paul P |
#19
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On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 22:56:03 -0400, Paul P wrote:
It helps enormously to have the proper tools for this and that they be of reasonably high quality. I went for years screwing around with a few cheap tools then last year equipped myself with real tools (to build a tube guitar amp). Making cables is now an easy and enjoyable activity. A really good argument can be made that acquiring (*) tools is the highest of Human male (**) aspirations. Hand tools, intellectual tools (knowledge and skills), financial tools - all are concentrated energy. (*) Actually *using* tools is secondary; for example, if one decides to own a handgun, he's obligated to practice its use, and then to pray to *never* actually use it. Kinda like life insurance. (**) Human females must aspire to something, but no regular person knows what that might be... Much thanks, as always, Chris Hornbeck |
#20
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On Mar 23, 2:59 pm, Ed Anson wrote:
Good call! After checking for bad solder joints, etc. I took a closer look. Sure enough, this particular cable is wired with the shield to pin 2 on both ends. I guess that would make it somewhat susceptible to interference. This is disappointing, since I purchased the cable ready made because I don't trust my own skills for making cables. Perhaps I should reconsider that. At least in this case it looks like I have some soldering to do. What brand is the cable? I would take it back to the store - even if it's a year old - and demand they replace it before starting work on it. If it's faulty product the store needs to know and the manufacturer needs to know, and they should make it right. I'd also check the other cable/cables you have that're working to see how they're wired as well. If you don't want to solder - although it's much cheaper to do so - you could just unscrew the connectors in the store and check them before you buy them. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#21
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Paul P wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: The key is to use the right hole in the stripper so that the hole is just a little bigger than the conductors. If you do that, you can pull the wire out straight without nicking anything. If you have the wrong hole, it's a lot more work to pull and the chances of nicking the conductor are a lot higher. Cheap strippers may not have the right hole at all. The strippers that first clamp onto the wire before the cutters then close on the insulation and remove it is a fanastic tool to have. I couldn't live without it anymore. I bought this one by Gardner Bender from a local big box hardware store : http://www.hardwareworld.com/Automat...r-pGJXL4L.aspx I converted my house to electric baseboard heating and built an amp and made a bunch of cables and the tool is still working fine. Or you could spend a fortune and get a Klein : http://www.mytoolstore.com/klein/11062.html It's probably better quality, at least I hope it is. Back in the 1970's we built three consoles and assembled all the wiring for onion audio using Radio Shack's version of that, which is still in my toolbox, and still works well. -- ha shut up and play your guitar |
#22
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In article , Paul P wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: The key is to use the right hole in the stripper so that the hole is just a little bigger than the conductors. If you do that, you can pull the wire out straight without nicking anything. If you have the wrong hole, it's a lot more work to pull and the chances of nicking the conductor are a lot higher. Cheap strippers may not have the right hole at all. The strippers that first clamp onto the wire before the cutters then close on the insulation and remove it is a fanastic tool to have. I couldn't live without it anymore. I never liked those. I worked in places where people used the Paladin strippers all the time, but I found them kind of cumbersome, and they didn't work with Teflon wire. But it's true, lots of people get great results with the things. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#23
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![]() "Paul P" wrote in message ... Scott Dorsey wrote: The key is to use the right hole in the stripper so that the hole is just a little bigger than the conductors. If you do that, you can pull the wire out straight without nicking anything. If you have the wrong hole, it's a lot more work to pull and the chances of nicking the conductor are a lot higher. Cheap strippers may not have the right hole at all. The strippers that first clamp onto the wire before the cutters then close on the insulation and remove it is a fanastic tool to have. I couldn't live without it anymore. I bought this one by Gardner Bender from a local big box hardware store : http://www.hardwareworld.com/Automat...r-pGJXL4L.aspx I converted my house to electric baseboard heating and built an amp and made a bunch of cables and the tool is still working fine. Or you could spend a fortune and get a Klein : http://www.mytoolstore.com/klein/11062.html It's probably better quality, at least I hope it is. Paul P I've got the Irwin version, which sizes wires automatically. Excellent for bigger wires but useless for re-connectorizing a snake, where you don't have much un-jacketed wire to work with. For that job a smaller stripper was perfect, something like the Klein 11057 which does little wires. Can't link to Klein's stupid unsearchable site. Try this: http://www.amazon.com/Klein-11057-Kl.../dp/B000XEUPMQ A good iron with a damp sponge for wiping the tip is essential. -John O |
#24
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WillStG wrote:
On Mar 23, 2:59 pm, Ed Anson wrote: Good call! After checking for bad solder joints, etc. I took a closer look. Sure enough, this particular cable is wired with the shield to pin 2 on both ends. I guess that would make it somewhat susceptible to interference. This is disappointing, since I purchased the cable ready made because I don't trust my own skills for making cables. Perhaps I should reconsider that. At least in this case it looks like I have some soldering to do. What brand is the cable? I would take it back to the store - even if it's a year old - and demand they replace it before starting work on it. If it's faulty product the store needs to know and the manufacturer needs to know, and they should make it right. I'd also check the other cable/cables you have that're working to see how they're wired as well. If you don't want to solder - although it's much cheaper to do so - you could just unscrew the connectors in the store and check them before you buy them. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits I'll check into whether I can still do that. The cable is well over a year old, but the vendor is highly reputable. Still, I wouldn't hold it against them if they wouldn't take it back after such a long time. In the time I have had it, I have noticed EMI only three times or so. That probably has more to do with where I usually use it (well away from strong EM fields) than the actual performance of the cable. Each time it happened, I was focused on making a recording and just substituted another cable. When I got back home, I checked it out and found nothing wrong. The third time that happened, I decided to get some advice and thus this thread. BTW: I checked my other cables yesterday. No surprises. They're all wired correctly. Just the one dud. Thanks for the ideas. Ed |
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