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#41
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On Jan 13, 6:25 am, mrgou wrote:
the Zoom H2 wondering how well handling noise is isolated. In such an "all-in-one" device, I'd hate to hear every single movement on the unit in the recording. The unit itself has no moving parts other than the buttons. You'll hear an initial click when you start recording and one when when you stop, but other than that, there's no mechanical noise at all other than what you yourself create. Of course if you fidget and fondle it you'll hear your hand noise. The mics aren't excessively shock mounted, just enough to protect them if you drop it.l It comes with a sort of handle, tapered like an SM-57, that can fit in a mic stand clip, or you can hold it by that handle to get yourself a little further away from the mics and case while you're recording. It also has a camera tripod socket. You might find that a monopod works well for what you'll be doing. It will help to hold the recorder at a fixed height and keep your hands away from it (because you'll be holding the pole). And since the recorder is very light, you can do with a light duty monopod that won't add a lot of bulk to your kit. |
#42
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"William Sommerwerck" wrote
And you didn't say what sorts of sounds you were recording... Animals? Actors? (According to Max Bialystock, there's no difference.) Oh yeah ? Have you ever *eaten* with one ? Sigurd |
#43
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Hi,
Considering all your advice, I will get a Zoom H2 or even an H4 if it's worth the difference between both. I'll go with the Edirol and microphones later when I've had a bit more experience. I'll remember the NT1-A for recording settings where I can keep it standing, and a dynamic mic, possibly from Shure, whenever I need something lighter and more robust that I can easily carry around. Thanks to all of you for your recommendations! Raphael |
#44
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On 11 Jan 2009 14:49:41 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
mrgou wrote: What I'm really trying to do is to record natural sounds, from trickling waters to singing birds to the sound of wind, rain and thunder, as well as urban sounds (people, cars...). I'm likely to record voice as background sound rather than in an interview setting. I would be recording on a digital recorder such as the Edirol R-44. This is a very, very difficult thing to do. And the reason it is difficult is because the difference between the loud sounds and the soft sounds in the environment is very great. In addition, reproducing a convincing stereo imaging of anything is difficult. You may want to do as William Sommerweck suggested, and use a stereo pair. There are several microphone configurations used to produce a stereo signal, most all discussed in r.a.p and elsewhere over the years. Google these: x-y micing coincident pair micing spaced pair micing And then there's binaural recording, if you don't mind carrying around a head-sized and shaped artifact with the mics inside it: http://www.binaural.com/binfaq.html This may give as decent a stereo image as some of the other techniques on a pair of loudspeakers, but as the demos will demonstrate, it sounds best when listening through headphones. Check the demos and see if that's the result you want, and if you're willing to do what it takes to get it. As I'm really starting, I'm looking for a multi-purpose, omnidirectional, dynamic microphone. I could buy other mics later, such as a directional one, like a photographer has several objectives. I'd rather avoid going above 250$/€ unless it's really worth it. Why necessarily a dynamic microphone? i want to do this as a hobby, so I'm not looking for production-level quality. With the recorder included, I'm aiming at a ~1,000€ budget. Like other people take photographs of what they see surrounding them, I want to capture the sounds. I first started with a minidisc recorder and an Sony ECM-DP70S, with interesting but disappointing results, so I now want to take it to the next level! The next level is probably going to be something like the Avenson or Earthworks omnis. A-T also makes an inexpensive omni condenser mike. It is not horrible. --scott |
#46
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In article 49724f9c.134214015@localhost, Don Pearce wrote:
Kludge wrote: i don't trust the noise figures on the data sheet and I kind of doubt the NT1 is as quiet as the manufacturer claims. But it's still very quiet and certainly quieter than an RE-50. I've measured one of mine, substituting an equivalent non-microphonic capacitor for the capsule, and it met the spec quite happily - something over 4dB. Certainly much quieter than any dynamic I ever looked at. If you disconnect the primary noise source in the microphone (which is the capsule in any good modern design), of course you will get very good noise numbers. Unfortunately these numbers are not useful and correlate neither with the published IEC and ISO measurements nor with the real-world performance. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#47
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#49
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:12:38 +0000,
lid (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote: On 20 Jan 2009 18:01:17 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: In article 49724f9c.134214015@localhost, Don Pearce wrote: Kludge wrote: i don't trust the noise figures on the data sheet and I kind of doubt the NT1 is as quiet as the manufacturer claims. But it's still very quiet and certainly quieter than an RE-50. I've measured one of mine, substituting an equivalent non-microphonic capacitor for the capsule, and it met the spec quite happily - something over 4dB. Certainly much quieter than any dynamic I ever looked at. If you disconnect the primary noise source in the microphone (which is the capsule in any good modern design), of course you will get very good noise numbers. Unfortunately these numbers are not useful and correlate neither with the published IEC and ISO measurements nor with the real-world performance. --scott The capsule isn't the noise source - what would the mechanism be? A very high resistance shunted by a capacitance. Exactly - not the capacitance itself, which I replaced by a non-microphonic alternative. The capsule in a non-moving state is purely reactive, and therefore can't be a source of energy. It is only when it moves that it can impart some energy to the amplifier, and it only moves in response to a stimulus - in other words an external source of noise or vibration. It has no self-noise, that is purely down to the electronics. d |
#50
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:12:38 +0000,
lid (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote: On 20 Jan 2009 18:01:17 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: In article 49724f9c.134214015@localhost, Don Pearce wrote: Kludge wrote: i don't trust the noise figures on the data sheet and I kind of doubt the NT1 is as quiet as the manufacturer claims. But it's still very quiet and certainly quieter than an RE-50. I've measured one of mine, substituting an equivalent non-microphonic capacitor for the capsule, and it met the spec quite happily - something over 4dB. Certainly much quieter than any dynamic I ever looked at. If you disconnect the primary noise source in the microphone (which is the capsule in any good modern design), of course you will get very good noise numbers. Unfortunately these numbers are not useful and correlate neither with the published IEC and ISO measurements nor with the real-world performance. --scott The capsule isn't the noise source - what would the mechanism be? A very high resistance shunted by a capacitance. Exactly - not the capacitance itself, which I replaced by a non-microphonic alternative. The capsule in a non-moving state is purely reactive, and therefore can't be a source of energy. It is only when it moves that it can impart some energy to the amplifier, and it only moves in response to a stimulus - in other words an external source of noise or vibration. It has no self-noise, that is purely down to the electronics. It has 'infinite' resistance so, according to simplified Johnson theory, it generates infinte voltage noise - but from a source which is is capable of gving zero current. Zero current produces zero voltage across a capacitor. As soon as you connect it to a practical circuit with a real resistance, there will be Johnson noise (with a spectrum which falls at 6 dB per octave) . So do you then count the input resistance noise as part of the amplifier or part of the capsule? It is possible to reduce the noise contribution of the shunt resistance by making it part of a feedback loop. I have used this system to good effect (noise figures around 1dB or better) with lower impedance pre-amplifiers, but have never tried it with a capacitor capsule. Picking up a point which I don't think has been mentioned yet: Even with the best pre-amplifiers, many types of moving coil mic are noisy because of the Johnson noise inherent in the resistive component of the coil. There is nothing the user can do to reduce the noise level any further, unless they are prepared to fake the figures by limiting the measurement bandwidth. -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#51
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Keith. wrote:
"mrgou" wrote in message ... [...] Recording a thunderstorm and then replaying it satisfactorily is probably the hardest thing to do in audio recording. The extreme frequency/dynamic range of the storm is almost impossible to reproduce. Do you stand near a building and risk distorting the sound field with reflection and diffraction effects - or do you stand alone on the hilltop and receive a posthumous award for the best recording of the year? -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#52
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:32:29 +0000,
lid (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote: On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:12:38 +0000, lid (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote: On 20 Jan 2009 18:01:17 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: In article 49724f9c.134214015@localhost, Don Pearce wrote: Kludge wrote: i don't trust the noise figures on the data sheet and I kind of doubt the NT1 is as quiet as the manufacturer claims. But it's still very quiet and certainly quieter than an RE-50. I've measured one of mine, substituting an equivalent non-microphonic capacitor for the capsule, and it met the spec quite happily - something over 4dB. Certainly much quieter than any dynamic I ever looked at. If you disconnect the primary noise source in the microphone (which is the capsule in any good modern design), of course you will get very good noise numbers. Unfortunately these numbers are not useful and correlate neither with the published IEC and ISO measurements nor with the real-world performance. --scott The capsule isn't the noise source - what would the mechanism be? A very high resistance shunted by a capacitance. Exactly - not the capacitance itself, which I replaced by a non-microphonic alternative. The capsule in a non-moving state is purely reactive, and therefore can't be a source of energy. It is only when it moves that it can impart some energy to the amplifier, and it only moves in response to a stimulus - in other words an external source of noise or vibration. It has no self-noise, that is purely down to the electronics. It has 'infinite' resistance so, according to simplified Johnson theory, it generates infinte voltage noise - but from a source which is is capable of gving zero current. Zero current produces zero voltage across a capacitor. No it isn't resistive - it is reactive. Any residual resistive component it may have is well shunted by the capacitor, and can be discounted. As soon as you connect it to a practical circuit with a real resistance, there will be Johnson noise (with a spectrum which falls at 6 dB per octave) . So do you then count the input resistance noise as part of the amplifier or part of the capsule? Johnson noise comes from the bias resistor, which is you say is shunted at 6dB per octave by the capacitance of the capsule. My test left all of that in place. It is possible to reduce the noise contribution of the shunt resistance by making it part of a feedback loop. I have used this system to good effect (noise figures around 1dB or better) with lower impedance pre-amplifiers, but have never tried it with a capacitor capsule. You can't feed back all the way to the acoustic coupling, so it doesn't apply in this case. Picking up a point which I don't think has been mentioned yet: Even with the best pre-amplifiers, many types of moving coil mic are noisy because of the Johnson noise inherent in the resistive component of the coil. There is nothing the user can do to reduce the noise level any further, unless they are prepared to fake the figures by limiting the measurement bandwidth. Precisely my point. The 4-and-a-bit dB noise level I measured was the sum of all the electronic noises - Johnson, shot etc. Anything that results from the diaphragm being moved by air molecules isn't microphone noise - it is external noise, and for the purpose of this measurement must be considered valid signal. d |
#53
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:32:29 +0000,
lid (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote: On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:12:38 +0000, lid (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote: On 20 Jan 2009 18:01:17 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: In article 49724f9c.134214015@localhost, Don Pearce wrote: Kludge wrote: i don't trust the noise figures on the data sheet and I kind of doubt the NT1 is as quiet as the manufacturer claims. But it's still very quiet and certainly quieter than an RE-50. I've measured one of mine, substituting an equivalent non-microphonic capacitor for the capsule, and it met the spec quite happily - something over 4dB. Certainly much quieter than any dynamic I ever looked at. If you disconnect the primary noise source in the microphone (which is the capsule in any good modern design), of course you will get very good noise numbers. Unfortunately these numbers are not useful and correlate neither with the published IEC and ISO measurements nor with the real-world performance. --scott The capsule isn't the noise source - what would the mechanism be? A very high resistance shunted by a capacitance. Exactly - not the capacitance itself, which I replaced by a non-microphonic alternative. The capsule in a non-moving state is purely reactive, and therefore can't be a source of energy. It is only when it moves that it can impart some energy to the amplifier, and it only moves in response to a stimulus - in other words an external source of noise or vibration. It has no self-noise, that is purely down to the electronics. It has 'infinite' resistance so, according to simplified Johnson theory, it generates infinte voltage noise - but from a source which is is capable of gving zero current. Zero current produces zero voltage across a capacitor. No it isn't resistive - it is reactive. I was being purist. No capacitor is a perfect reactance and when the resistance is 'infinite' and noise rises with resistance, you have to sit down and explain to yourself why there is no Johnson Noise from it. ...Any residual resistive component it may have is well shunted by the capacitor, and can be discounted. That was the point I was trying to make - but it is still a good idea to be aware of what you are discounting and why; otherwise, one day, it will creep up from behind and bite you [...] It is possible to reduce the noise contribution of the shunt resistance by making it part of a feedback loop. I have used this system to good effect (noise figures around 1dB or better) with lower impedance pre-amplifiers, but have never tried it with a capacitor capsule. You can't feed back all the way to the acoustic coupling, so it doesn't apply in this case. I believe there have been attempts to do almost that (restoring the diaphragm position by using an electronically-generated force), but no practical equipment has yet come onto the market. Anything that results from the diaphragm being moved by air molecules isn't microphone noise - it is external noise, and for the purpose of this measurement must be considered valid signal. That's fair enough. I have heard of microphone tests being conducted in a vacuum in order to give the most accurate results. (Not to be confused with the hydrogen pistonphone fiasco that was hushed-up by Victor/HMV in the late 1920s) -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#54
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In article 4976eb4e.436215546@localhost, Don Pearce wrote:
On 20 Jan 2009 18:01:17 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: In article 49724f9c.134214015@localhost, Don Pearce wrote: Kludge wrote: i don't trust the noise figures on the data sheet and I kind of doubt the NT1 is as quiet as the manufacturer claims. But it's still very quiet and certainly quieter than an RE-50. I've measured one of mine, substituting an equivalent non-microphonic capacitor for the capsule, and it met the spec quite happily - something over 4dB. Certainly much quieter than any dynamic I ever looked at. If you disconnect the primary noise source in the microphone (which is the capsule in any good modern design), of course you will get very good noise numbers. Unfortunately these numbers are not useful and correlate neither with the published IEC and ISO measurements nor with the real-world performance. The capsule isn't the noise source - what would the mechanism be? And please don't say Brownian motion of the air molecules, because that isn't microphone noise, it is an external signal the microphone responds to just like any other. Yes, on a typical microphone today, Brownian noise is the main noise source. The air is part of the capsule... you don't use it in a vacuum, you use it with air in it, so you have to measure it with air in it. Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger. Blame the folks at the ISO. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#56
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:51:45 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:16:12 +0000, (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote: It has 'infinite' resistance so, according to simplified Johnson theory, it generates infinte voltage noise - but from a source which is is capable of gving zero current. Zero current produces zero voltage across a capacitor. No it isn't resistive - it is reactive. I was being purist. No capacitor is a perfect reactance and when the resistance is 'infinite' and noise rises with resistance, you have to sit down and explain to yourself why there is no Johnson Noise from it. Remember the residual - huge - resistance of the capsule is in parallel with the bias resistor, which is orders of magnitude bigger. d Bugger - I meant smaller, of course. (Just got back from the dentist is my excuse!) d |
#57
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On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:51:45 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:16:12 +0000, (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote: It has 'infinite' resistance so, according to simplified Johnson theory, it generates infinte voltage noise - but from a source which is is capable of gving zero current. Zero current produces zero voltage across a capacitor. No it isn't resistive - it is reactive. I was being purist. No capacitor is a perfect reactance and when the resistance is 'infinite' and noise rises with resistance, you have to sit down and explain to yourself why there is no Johnson Noise from it. Remember the residual - huge - resistance of the capsule is in parallel with the bias resistor, which is orders of magnitude bigger. d Bugger - I meant smaller, of course. (Just got back from the dentist is my excuse!) ....and you are looking a bit down in the mouth? :-) -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk |
#58
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Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:51:45 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote: On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:16:12 +0000, (Adrian Tuddenham) wrote: It has 'infinite' resistance so, according to simplified Johnson theory, it generates infinte voltage noise - but from a source which is is capable of gving zero current. Zero current produces zero voltage across a capacitor. No it isn't resistive - it is reactive. I was being purist. No capacitor is a perfect reactance and when the resistance is 'infinite' and noise rises with resistance, you have to sit down and explain to yourself why there is no Johnson Noise from it. Remember the residual - huge - resistance of the capsule is in parallel with the bias resistor, which is orders of magnitude bigger. d Bugger - I meant smaller, of course. (Just got back from the dentist is my excuse!) ...and you are looking a bit down in the mouth? :-) You know the drill... -- ha shut up and play your guitar |
#59
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On Jan 21, 9:16*am, (Adrian
Tuddenham) wrote: On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:32:29 +0000, .... I was being purist. *No capacitor is a perfect reactance and when the resistance is 'infinite' and noise rises with resistance, you have to sit down and explain to yourself why there is no Johnson Noise from it. To be a bit more careful, the Fluctuation Dissipation theorem states that it is dissipation that leads to noise -- Johnson noise in resistors (or lossy capacitors or inductors), Brownian motion in mechanical oscillators. A perfectlylossless capacitor has no dissipation, thus generates no Johnson noise. d. |
#60
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On Jan 21, 9:28*am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
In article 4976eb4e.436215546@localhost, Don Pearce wrote: On 20 Jan 2009 18:01:17 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: In article 49724f9c.134214015@localhost, Don Pearce wrote: Kludge wrote: i don't trust the noise figures on the data sheet and I kind of doubt the NT1 is as quiet as the manufacturer claims. *But it's still very quiet and certainly quieter than an RE-50. I've measured one of mine, substituting an equivalent non-microphonic capacitor for the capsule, and it met the spec quite happily - something over 4dB. Certainly much quieter than any dynamic I ever looked at. If you disconnect the primary noise source in the microphone (which is the capsule in any good modern design), of course you will get very good noise numbers. *Unfortunately these numbers are not useful and correlate neither with the published IEC and ISO measurements nor with the real-world performance. The capsule isn't the noise source - what would the mechanism be? And please don't say Brownian motion of the air molecules, because that isn't microphone noise, it is an external signal the microphone responds to just like any other. Yes, on a typical microphone today, Brownian noise is the main noise source. The air is part of the capsule... *you don't use it in a vacuum, you use it with air in it, so you have to measure it with air in it. Don't blame me, I'm just the messenger. *Blame the folks at the ISO. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. *C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." ....and, of course, there is not only the Brownian motion of the air molecules, but the Brownian motion of the membrane itself (being a far- from-loss-free mechanical oscillator in equilibrium with the thermal environment). It would be satisfying to know where this noise source lies, as it is something that could be addressed by engineering if needed; it is, however, probably negligible. d. |
#61
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mrgou wrote:
I'm trying to choose a semi-pro microphone for outdoor field recording, and having a hard time finding the balance between sensitivity and frequency response. Look for a Sennheiser MKH 106. Depending on the version you find it uses 16V tonleiter or phantom, a phantom adapter is available on the market for the tonleiter version. If I am correct in my understanding that higher sensitivity will allow fainter sounds to be recorded, am I correct that for outdoor field recording, it is better to have a higher sensitivity than broader frequency response? If I am, would you agree that the AKG D230 (sens.: 2.5 mV/Pa; FR: 40 - 20 kHz) is a better choice than the ElectroVoice RE50 (sens.: 1.8 mV/Pa; FR 80 Hz to 13,000 Hz)? As I recall the occasional posts about environmental recording - or whatever you wanna call it - the MKH 106 is the first choice, a newer Sennheiser MKH the second and then there is the rest. If you wanna go dynamic then a MD 211, also that one a Senhheiser. No aaffiliation. Raphael Kind regards Peter Larsen |
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