[dwgriffi]

On Jan 17, 1:44*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,

*dwgriffi wrote:
I have never, ever heard a live acoustic guitar using an internal
pickup that was going for a natural sound (as opposed to a pickup
that's just rocking out like a sound hole pickup) that didn't make me
want to get up and leave, or at least completely subtract the guitar
from what I was hearing.

I have to disagree. *A well made acoustic guitar pickup in an excellent
instrument can sound rather a lot like the guitar, only louder. *Devices
by LRBaggs, Fishman, D-Tar, K&K, et al sound great. *The type favored by
many SOTA solo players (Laurence Juber, Ed Gerhard, et al) tend to be an
under-saddle piezo/internal mic combo, like the about to be released
"Multi Source" by D-Tar, which I just played at the NAMM show. *Sounded
very, very good.

Nothing sounds exactly like the unamplified guitar, but modern pickups
sound quite good.

Jenn, in my vehemence I didn't word that right. My issue with the DI
habit is that, regardless of its potential and the those that use it
to better effect, every single time I go to a live show (even big
ticket ones) the acoustic guitars sound so bad you want to mute them
from your mind's mix, not even let them in. I don't mean a bad in
that it just wasn't happening for the soundperson that night, I mean
you plug it in and get that ****ty, cheap sound. It just strikes me
as such an odd thing. If it sounds so bad, do something else, but
someone is making the decision that it sounds fine, which is
insanity. So I don't mean no one has ever accomplished it, but...

Have you by chance heard Dylan's guitar live for the past decade? It
sounds like a cheap Ovation. Who OKs that sound? (A rhetorical
question, obviously). I just saw a live video of CS & N and the
singing is great but the acoustics are all direct and truly prevent it
from being listenable much less transferring the emotion of the
playing. There was no rhythm section, stage volume was very low.
What's the point? In fact, I got a live Randy Travis album (hey,
shoot me, I like him : ) ) and holy jeepers, twin DI acoustics that
sound HORRIBLE!!! A dealkiller! Big budget live recording,
everything else is pristine, vocals probably went through a chain
worth $8,000, and the guitars sound worse than Mickey Mouse ukuleles,
no exaggeration. : (

Why? : ) (Again, that's rhetorical : ) )

[Mike Rivers]

On Jan 19, 2:25 pm, dwgriffi wrote:
every single time I go to a live show (even big
ticket ones) the acoustic guitars sound so bad you want to mute them
from your mind's mix, not even let them in. I don't mean a bad in
that it just wasn't happening for the soundperson that night, I mean
you plug it in and get that ****ty, cheap sound. It just strikes me
as such an odd thing.

The problem for me is that I hear pretty much that sound on studio
recordings of pop music, too. It seems that they EQ the mic so that it
sounds like a pickup, maybe not quite as plastic, but still pretty
much a washboard with a little pitch to it. I think this has become
the accepted sound of an acoustic guitar used as a rhythm instrument
(it's rarely lead unless it's a rhythmic strummed solo). When the
predominant instrument is the drums, which take up a huge portion of
the acoustic spectrum, there's just no room for a full sounding
acoustic guitar.

But with James Taylor, where his guitar is very much a part of the
sound of the song, it should sound like a guitar.

[Jenn[_3_]]

In article
,
dwgriffi wrote:

On Jan 17, 1:44*pm, Jenn wrote:
In article
,

*dwgriffi wrote:
I have never, ever heard a live acoustic guitar using an internal
pickup that was going for a natural sound (as opposed to a pickup
that's just rocking out like a sound hole pickup) that didn't make me
want to get up and leave, or at least completely subtract the guitar
from what I was hearing.

I have to disagree. *A well made acoustic guitar pickup in an excellent
instrument can sound rather a lot like the guitar, only louder. *Devices
by LRBaggs, Fishman, D-Tar, K&K, et al sound great. *The type favored by
many SOTA solo players (Laurence Juber, Ed Gerhard, et al) tend to be an
under-saddle piezo/internal mic combo, like the about to be released
"Multi Source" by D-Tar, which I just played at the NAMM show. *Sounded
very, very good.

Nothing sounds exactly like the unamplified guitar, but modern pickups
sound quite good.

Jenn, in my vehemence I didn't word that right. My issue with the DI
habit is that, regardless of its potential and the those that use it
to better effect, every single time I go to a live show (even big
ticket ones) the acoustic guitars sound so bad you want to mute them
from your mind's mix, not even let them in. I don't mean a bad in
that it just wasn't happening for the soundperson that night, I mean
you plug it in and get that ****ty, cheap sound. It just strikes me
as such an odd thing. If it sounds so bad, do something else, but
someone is making the decision that it sounds fine, which is
insanity. So I don't mean no one has ever accomplished it, but...

Have you by chance heard Dylan's guitar live for the past decade? It
sounds like a cheap Ovation. Who OKs that sound? (A rhetorical
question, obviously).

Yep, terrible. I saw him summer of 07.

I just saw a live video of CS & N and the
singing is great but the acoustics are all direct and truly prevent it
from being listenable much less transferring the emotion of the
playing. There was no rhythm section, stage volume was very low.
What's the point? In fact, I got a live Randy Travis album (hey,
shoot me, I like him : ) ) and holy jeepers, twin DI acoustics that
sound HORRIBLE!!! A dealkiller! Big budget live recording,
everything else is pristine, vocals probably went through a chain
worth $8,000, and the guitars sound worse than Mickey Mouse ukuleles,
no exaggeration. : (

Why? : ) (Again, that's rhetorical : )

For the most part, I agree. SOMETIMES the problem is that they are
DIing bad sounding guitars (like Ovations) to begin with, but not
always. Very often, it's about sound guys and players not listening for
the right things. I've played with DI in places where when I told the
sound guy that the goal is to sound like my guitar only louder, he
looked at me like it was a totally foreign concept. In the solo guitar
world, it's almost all DI with excellent pickups (sometimes a under
saddle/internal mic combo, sometimes a under saddle/under soundboard
combo, which is what I presently use). I have the sound guy set
everything FLAT except the appropriate amount of 'verb, then I control
EQ from my DI. The only excellent solo player that I've heard play with
a mic and without DI are Alex DeGrassi. I also understand that the
wonderful Rick Ruskin plays this way.

[George's Pro Sound Company]

I have the sound guy set
everything FLAT except the appropriate amount of 'verb, then I control
EQ from my DI

not a great idea especially in these days of digital desks that carry 4 or
more bands of true parametric eq per channel
that would be like tradeing a fine razor for a chainsaw to shave with.

The only excellent solo player that I've heard play with
a mic and without DI are Alex DeGrassi. I also understand that the
wonderful Rick Ruskin plays this way.

add Tony Rice and David Grisman , Del McCoury and Peter Rowan to that list
IMO a external mic is the truest path to good acoustic sound in live sound
thanks
George