[HiC]

I was fooling around recording myself playing this short piece which
you'll recognize as a very imperfect rendition of the CBS Sunday
Morning theme - "Abblasen". I was dismayed to discover a brittle
raspiness in my tone that wasn't previously obvious to me from behind
the horn. You can hear it particularly on the ascending double-tongued
line in the middle from about :08 - :12. Gaaah! Quite a dismaying
revelation. This, as with all "legit" playing is supposed to sound
silky smooth.

Have you ever heard something like this being caused by the mic or is
it really just reporting back what I'm doing? Dang, need to do some
serious woodshedding to iron this out.

Here's the recording in question.


http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/...8/abblasen.mp3

[Tim Perry]

"HiC" wrote in message
...
I was fooling around recording myself playing this short piece which
you'll recognize as a very imperfect rendition of the CBS Sunday
Morning theme - "Abblasen". I was dismayed to discover a brittle
raspiness in my tone that wasn't previously obvious to me from behind
the horn. You can hear it particularly on the ascending double-tongued
line in the middle from about :08 - :12. Gaaah! Quite a dismaying
revelation. This, as with all "legit" playing is supposed to sound
silky smooth.

Have you ever heard something like this being caused by the mic or is
it really just reporting back what I'm doing? Dang, need to do some
serious woodshedding to iron this out.

Here's the recording in question.


http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/...8/abblasen.mp3

Only way you can really know is have someone in the room listening as you
record and then listen to playback immediately.

You can try playing into a reflector.

[Chris Whealy]

HiC wrote:
I was fooling around recording myself playing this short piece which
you'll recognize as a very imperfect rendition of the CBS Sunday
Morning theme - "Abblasen". I was dismayed to discover a brittle
raspiness in my tone that wasn't previously obvious to me from behind
the horn. You can hear it particularly on the ascending double-tongued
line in the middle from about :08 - :12. Gaaah! Quite a dismaying
revelation. This, as with all "legit" playing is supposed to sound
silky smooth.

Have you ever heard something like this being caused by the mic or is
it really just reporting back what I'm doing? Dang, need to do some
serious woodshedding to iron this out.

Here's the recording in question.


http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/...8/abblasen.mp3

Hey, I've heard players alot worse than that who talk as if they are a
lot better than that!
Generally, you've got a nice tone there, so don't be /too/ hard on
yourself. Nonetheless, I think the mic is faithfully reproducing what
you played.

Not being a horn player myself, I can't give you any specific pointers
on how to fix the problem. But being a drummer, I think you should
apply the universal principle of all music practice, namely "Slow
Practice - Fast Progress".

First, get the silkiness you're after at a slower tempo. Don't increase
the tempo until you're happy with what you've played at the slower tempo.

The opening passage sounds like its at around the 120bpm mark, so try
playing it at 100bpm first, see if you're happy, and then notch it up
4bpm at a time until you're back up to performance tempo.

BTW. Keep this recording as a "before" take. Then re-record yourself
when you've done you're shedding. I find listening to a "before and
"after" recording is a good way of demonstrating to myself that I am in
fact making progress.

£0.025

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

[HiC]

On Dec 8, 5:40*am, Chris Whealy wrote:

Not being a horn player myself, I can't give you any specific pointers
on how to fix the problem. *But being a drummer, I think you should
apply the universal principle of all music practice, namely "Slow
Practice - Fast Progress".


Horn player or not, you've hit the universal nail on the head. The
principle is the same whatever the instrument. It's just surprising to
discover the problem. I've recorded myself before but not doing this
kind of playing, which is where it seems to manifest itself.

I just wondered if there was some weird harmonic thing or whatever
that could be happening with the mic itself to be causing it.

I was back about 15 feet or more from the mic to get lots of the room
in the sound so I'm sure it's not being overwhelmed. It doesn't sound
overloaded. I've stood much closer and played with no problems. The
mic is an MXL 990 and seems to be able to handle high SPL's. In
general I think it does a fantastic job of capturing the trumpet
sound. *Too* good apparently grumble grumble

[HKC]

I recently recorded a girl where the mic seemed to enhance some kind of hi
end raspiness. The mic in question was a Lawson L251 so I changed to a
Lawson L49 but the problem persisted. I ran through a Grace M201 so I
changed that to a TLA and after that a Joe Meek and a Drawmer but they all
made it even worse so I went back to the Grace. Then I changed the mic to a
Gefell UMT 70s which did better but the problem was still there to a lesser
degree. Finally I tried a RE20 which solved the problem but the sound was
obviously less airy (and the vocalist wasn´t crazy about that) so I went
back and decided to use the Gefell throught the Grace and a Distressor that
strangely helped holding the "artifact" down. The girl said that she always
had had that problem in studios so there you go. All the mics and preamps I
used are as you can see not exactly entry level and still....
I have never experienced anything like that before but it´s possible that
mics pick up (and enhance) sounds that you can´t really hear naturally,
probably something to do with overtones and equipment being able to pick up
frequencies way beyond our ears capabilities.

[Arny Krueger]

"HiC" wrote in message


Have you ever heard something like this being caused by
the mic or is it really just reporting back what I'm
doing? Dang, need to do some serious woodshedding to iron
this out.

Here's the recording in question.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/...8/abblasen.mp3

A ton of reverb in a big room, or was it electronic reverb?

[Ty Ford]

On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:33:18 -0500, HiC wrote
(in article
):

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/...8/abblasen.mp3

That's you!? Very Nice. I thought I was watch Sunday Morning TV.

Two thoughts.
1. I think it's part of the lick in that crowded spot.
2. My experience is that condenser mics of a certain design can put little
edges on things that you can't get off.

I work with a vocalist who gets hard when she bears down on a note. Even on a
condenser mic that's not know for it's brightness, I found that pulling down
some 6k by automating the EQ during mixing pulled out some of those upper
harmonics and smoothed out the short sections that were a little too edgy.

Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Chris Whealy]

HiC wrote:
On Dec 8, 5:40 am, Chris Whealy wrote:


Horn player or not, you've hit the universal nail on the head. The principle is the same whatever the instrument. It's just surprising to discover the problem. I've recorded myself before but not doing this kind of playing, which is where it seems to manifest itself.

Well, listening to a recording of yourself can create what could be
called a "perception mismatch". That's a politically correct way of
saying you've just had a rude awakening.... :-)

You perceive your playing to be of a particular standard, then you
listen to a recording of your self and suddenly you find you need to
adjust your perception of your own playing... :-(

As a drummer, I've had exactly the same experiences. I used to think I
could play a really groovy shuffle - until I heard a recording of myself....
Needless to say, some serious shedding then took place where I took the
whole rhythm apart, note by note, played it r e a l l y
s l o w, and gradually increased the tempo back up to performance
speed. Now I've got it nailed.

I just wondered if there was some weird harmonic thing or whatever that could be happening with the mic itself to be causing it.

I was back about 15 feet or more from the mic to get lots of the room in the sound so I'm sure it's not being overwhelmed. It doesn't sound overloaded. I've stood much closer and played with no problems. The mic is an MXL 990 and seems to be able to handle high SPL's.
Nope, technically, the recording is fine. Perhaps a tad over zealous
with the reverb, but it a good smooth sounding reverb nonetheless.
In general I think it does a fantastic job of capturing the trumpet sound.
I agree
*Too* good apparently grumble grumble

LOL!! Just think of it like this - objective self examination will lead
to you becoming a better player, and that is an encouraging thought.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
HKC wrote:
I recently recorded a girl where the mic seemed to enhance some kind of hi
end raspiness. The mic in question was a Lawson L251 so I changed to a
Lawson L49 but the problem persisted. I ran through a Grace M201 so I
changed that to a TLA and after that a Joe Meek and a Drawmer but they all
made it even worse so I went back to the Grace. Then I changed the mic to a
Gefell UMT 70s which did better but the problem was still there to a lesser
degree. Finally I tried a RE20 which solved the problem but the sound was
obviously less airy (and the vocalist wasn´t crazy about that) so I went
back and decided to use the Gefell throught the Grace and a Distressor that
strangely helped holding the "artifact" down. The girl said that she always
had had that problem in studios so there you go. All the mics and preamps I
used are as you can see not exactly entry level and still....
I have never experienced anything like that before but it´s possible that
mics pick up (and enhance) sounds that you can´t really hear naturally,
probably something to do with overtones and equipment being able to pick up
frequencies way beyond our ears capabilities.

The "Airiness" you hear from some of those large diaphragm condensers is
the result of having a bunch of huge peaks in the top octave. I have not
used the L251 but if it's supposed to sound like a Telefunken 251, the
251 is phenomenally peaky up there... maybe as much as a U87. That is
currently a very popular vocal sound, but it has some drawbacks.

Microphones with peaky top ends will exaggerate tonsil noise a lot.
And some singers just have a lot of tonsil noise. Sometimes drinking
hot tea can help. If not.... the RE-20 is nice and flat on top.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[HiC]

On Dec 8, 7:58*am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

A ton of reverb in a big room, or was it electronic reverb?


A fantastic VST reverb called Ambience. I was going for a "trumpet in
a cathedral" sound.

http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/programs/AmbienceWin/

[HiC]

I also stereofied it and applied some stereo expansion in Soundforge.

[HiC]

On Dec 8, 8:28*am, Chris Whealy wrote:

Nope, technically, the recording is fine. *Perhaps a tad over zealous
with the reverb, but it a good smooth sounding reverb nonetheless


I was trying to simulate a cathedral kind of sound, used a VST plugin
called Ambience which seems to work really well.

[HiC]

On Dec 8, 8:25*am, Ty Ford wrote:


That's you!? Very Nice. I thought I was watch Sunday Morning TV.


Thanks, though clearly the speaker on your TV is malfunctioning. The
original was performed by a fantastic player and music historian named
Don Smithers on a baroque natural (valveless) trumpet. Doc Severinsen
did a version on piccolo trumpet and the current one is by Wynton
Marsalis also on picc.

A bit of trivia that I recently learned is that for years Don Smithers
wasn't paid by CBS for the use of his performance. Wonder how they
were able to get away with that. It was apparently a track from an
album he recorded.

Does anybody have the Doc Severinsen version? I've never heard it.
Some guy had it on a website but the quality is so bad due to reduced
sample and bitrate it's not even recognizeable as a trumpet.

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

HiC wrote:


I just wondered if there was some weird harmonic thing or whatever
that could be happening with the mic itself to be causing it.

I was back about 15 feet or more from the mic to get lots of the room
in the sound...

Were you getting a fast flutter echo between two parallel walls?

Try it again, but play more diagonally across the room, with the mic a
lot higher or lower then the instrument and not exactly opposite it.
You could even try heaping large angular junk (tables & upturned
chairs) against parts of two *adjacent* walls.



--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Chris Whealy]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
HiC wrote:



I just wondered if there was some weird harmonic thing or whatever
that could be happening with the mic itself to be causing it.

I was back about 15 feet or more from the mic to get lots of the room
in the sound...


Were you getting a fast flutter echo between two parallel walls?

Try it again, but play more diagonally across the room, with the mic a
lot higher or lower then the instrument and not exactly opposite it.
You could even try heaping large angular junk (tables & upturned
chairs) against parts of two *adjacent* walls.



Didn't sound like an acoustic effect to me because it is only apparent
during one part of the recording. I'd expect any audible acoustic
effects to be present throughout the recording (albeit with frequency
dependent severity)

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---

[HiC]

On Dec 8, 10:35*am, (Adrian
Tuddenham) wrote:

Were you getting a fast flutter echo between two parallel walls?


As much as I'd like to blame it on something else, I don't see how.
The mic was in an off-center spot in a combination great room &
kitchen area and the surrounding surfaces are all very irregular and
utterly dissimilar. Vaulted ceiling, carpet, bookshelf, couch, a large
part of the one long wall there is on one side of the area is taken up
by blinds and across from that is the kitchen with different angled
walls, counter, etc. and also an entrance way with a wall that also
intrudes into the air space. None of the sides of the room are
anything like the other. Not far behind the mic is an open door into a
bedroom.

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

HiC wrote:

On Dec 8, 10:35*am, (Adrian
Tuddenham) wrote:

Were you getting a fast flutter echo between two parallel walls?


As much as I'd like to blame it on something else, I don't see how.
The mic was in an off-center spot in a combination great room &
kitchen area and the surrounding surfaces are all very irregular and
utterly dissimilar. Vaulted ceiling, carpet, bookshelf, couch, a large
part of the one long wall there is on one side of the area is taken up
by blinds and across from that is the kitchen with different angled
walls, counter, etc. and also an entrance way with a wall that also
intrudes into the air space. None of the sides of the room are
anything like the other. Not far behind the mic is an open door into a
bedroom.

Sounds as though flutter echo can't be the problem, then. In any case,
one handclap will tell you for certain.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Mark]

On Dec 8, 1:10*pm, (Adrian
Tuddenham) wrote:
HiC wrote:
On Dec 8, 10:35*am, (Adrian
Tuddenham) wrote:

Were you getting a fast flutter echo between two parallel walls?

As much as I'd like to blame it on something else, I don't see how.
The mic was in an off-center spot in a combination great room &
kitchen area and the surrounding surfaces are all very irregular and
utterly dissimilar. Vaulted ceiling, carpet, bookshelf, couch, a large
part of the one long wall there is on one side of the area is taken up
by blinds and across from that is the kitchen with different angled
walls, counter, etc. and also an entrance way with a wall that also
intrudes into the air space. None of the sides of the room are
anything like the other. Not far behind the mic is an open door into a
bedroom.

Sounds as though flutter echo can't be the problem, then. *In any case,
one handclap will tell you for certain.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)www.poppyrecords.co.uk- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't think it's the mic

it's either flutter echo or you...

try using this tool to look at it...it's interesting

http://freenet-homepage.de/dl4yhf/spectra1.html

Mark

[Misifus[_2_]]

HiC wrote:
I was fooling around recording myself playing this short piece which
you'll recognize as a very imperfect rendition of the CBS Sunday
Morning theme - "Abblasen". I was dismayed to discover a brittle
raspiness in my tone that wasn't previously obvious to me from behind
the horn. You can hear it particularly on the ascending double-tongued
line in the middle from about :08 - :12. Gaaah! Quite a dismaying
revelation. This, as with all "legit" playing is supposed to sound
silky smooth.

Have you ever heard something like this being caused by the mic or is
it really just reporting back what I'm doing? Dang, need to do some
serious woodshedding to iron this out.

Here's the recording in question.


http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/...8/abblasen.mp3


I can't help you with your technical problem, but I was tickled to hear
that piece. I have an old vinyl recording of it played on a natural
(valveless) trumpet.

-Raf

--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert

Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafiii
home: http://www.rafandsioux.com

[Misifus[_2_]]

HiC wrote:
On Dec 8, 8:25 am, Ty Ford wrote:

That's you!? Very Nice. I thought I was watch Sunday Morning TV.


Thanks, though clearly the speaker on your TV is malfunctioning. The
original was performed by a fantastic player and music historian named
Don Smithers on a baroque natural (valveless) trumpet.


Aha! That's the recording I referred to in an earlier post. I've got
it on vinyl.

-Raf


--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert

Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafiii
home: http://www.rafandsioux.com