[William Noble]

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 09:48:35 -0700, William Noble wrote

***** Maybe the moderator can remove my email address from the header
when
posting, in which case I'll contribute more (email on NG=spam, in my
experience)****

-------------------------------------snip --------------------------------

1. I have consitently found that +3dB of power is quite audible. I
believe
that the ML amp has a much better low end than the 1970s vintage kenwood
it
replaced, and probably a much higher slew rate. suffice it to say that
using the SAME preamp, and the same speakers and the same CD with the
same
CD player and the same preamp and the same interconnects, and changing
only
the power amp, the difference was distinctly audible to me and to
disinterested listeners in the house (yes, I took it home and tried it in
my
house). Neither was louder than the other.

Ignoring, for the moment, that a 1970's Kenwood amplifier is NOT a modern
amplifier, you might have a point. Bass performance is often a product of
amplifier/speaker interaction. Such things as amp output impedance, and
power
supply design can affect how low frequencies are coupled to the speakers.
But, OTOH, if you didn't perform a blind A-B test between the old Kenwood
and
the new ML where both were matched in volume to less than +/- 1dB using
instruments, you are still dealing with sighted "expectation" results.

2. I have never been able to hear a difference with speaker wires or
power
cords unless they are way undersized for the job, however the
interconnect
from the preamp to the power amp can make a huge difference. This should
be
obvious to all - after all the cable has impedance and that will affect
the
sound.

That's just the point. NO it doesn't. There are no characteristics of any
conductor that could have the slightest effect on any signal from DC to 50
KHz or higher. No cable can produce enough capacitive or inductive
reactance
at those frequencies to impact any characteristic of the audio signal
being
carried.

If you cannot hear it, then so be it - I did extensive testing with
cables I made, cables on loan from the stereo store, and anything else I
could find. Quality, by which I mean sound that I prefered, did not
correlate with price, though cheaper cables tended to sound worse, but it
did vary dramatically as I changed the wire type and the way I used the
various conductors in a multi-conductor cable. This effect was
significant
enough that my daughter walking through the room remarked "you must have
changed the cables again, I don't like these new ones" - that's about as
close to a double blind test as you will come in a home setting. The
worst
home made cables were made from twinax, the best were from dual TSP that
was
rated for overhead use. All cables were balanced (XLR). The best
professional ones were Cardas (middle of the line) and Hovland. I bought
from Hovland because they are local, friends, and the two were pretty
much a
dead heat as far as sound is concerned.

Sorry, its simply impossible.


more snip


so, I will respond one last time, for the benefits of others.

1. "it is impossible" is simply a false statement, in fact any such
statement is almost always false. typically the output drivers of a preamp
are designed to drive 600 ohms or above impedance. The effect of a few
hundred pf and a few nH are easily measured - perhaps you should do the
calculations. particularly do the calculations for a transmision line of 10
meters using characteristic impedance data for RG58u to pick a particular
cable that is well known, driving a 10K resistor at the distal end and being
driven by a source with a 600 ohm impedance. Drive it with a 400 hz square
wave (to use a signal that is easily simulated) and look at the resultant
FFT . Look also at a frequency versus phase plot (aka Bode plot).

2. I am very sorry to point out to you that whatver assertions you choose to
make do not change the laws of physics. Maxwells equations have been well
understood since the turn of the century. The characteristic impedance of
preamp outpus and power amp inputs is relatively high, this is why cables
affect sound. The characteristic impedance of speakers and power amps is
very low, this is why it is nearly impossible for cables to affect sound.

3. perhaps you have heard of tone controls? Some inexpensive stereos have
them. Some folks add graphic equalizers also. Cables have a similar but
generally more subtle effect. Also, in my experience, certain cables can
"muddy" the sound dramatically, even in very short lengths. I did not
conduct analytic tests to determine why it is so, however, lack of analytic
test data, or your assertions to the contrary do not make the effect
impossible or negate its existance.

4. below is a post by someone named Chris to this newsgroup in 1999 - I
haven't yet found my posts where I carefully reported findings with each
specific wire I tried, this provides some suggestion of factors that matter
to augment what I listed in previous posts on this subject in the last few
weeks:

I have constructed interconnects and speaker cables which I have found
to be superior than many retail "high-end" wires for a fraction of their
price. The only "catch" is that it will require some time and
(especially with the speaker cables) some patience. The guideline used
for interconnects was to have EXTREMELY low capacitance, a dielectric as
close to air as possible, and teflon-insulated 32 gauge pure silver
wire. Here is the link to that recipe:
http://www.msu.edu/user/churches/chrisvh.htm#inter
I have compared to Kimber PBJ, Tara Labs (various), Audioquest, Greg
Weaver's SST, Harvey Rosenberg's "magnet wire", Allen Wright's recipes
and other various home brews. It has bested all that I have thrown at
it, in my system.

I also have made a DIY speaker cable utilizing CAT 5 Plenum (teflon
insulated) cable which has bested everything EXCEPT XLO Type 5, and my
current home-brews
(.008" X 1.25" .9995+ silver foils assembled similarly to Allen wright's
design in his "Supercables Cookbook"). I compared the CAT 5 recipe to
Audioquest Midnight, Kimber 8TC, XLO Type 5, Tara Labs, and ESP's.
Here's the link to that recipe:
http://www.msu.edu/user/churches/chrisvh.htm#speaker

If you guys are looking excellent cables which use quality materials and
geometries that minimize capacitance (for interconnects) and inductance
(for speaker cables), you might want to give these a shot.

I could inundate you with the usual audio jargon such as "palpable
soundstage", "airy-highs", "commanding bass", and all that other crap
that you hear from every reviewer out there, but I WON'T. Let's just say
that you would be hard pressed to find ANY commercially available
interconnect that sounds better, and FEW commercially available speaker
cables that sound better- especially for the price.

If anybody wants to construct either of these, please e-mail me with
feedback or questions. Good listening! :-)

[Sonnova]

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 08:44:03 -0700, William Noble wrote
(in article ) :

"Sonnova" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 09:48:35 -0700, William Noble wrote

***** Maybe the moderator can remove my email address from the header
when
posting, in which case I'll contribute more (email on NG=spam, in my
experience)****

-------------------------------------snip --------------------------------

1. I have consitently found that +3dB of power is quite audible. I
believe
that the ML amp has a much better low end than the 1970s vintage kenwood
it
replaced, and probably a much higher slew rate. suffice it to say that
using the SAME preamp, and the same speakers and the same CD with the
same
CD player and the same preamp and the same interconnects, and changing
only
the power amp, the difference was distinctly audible to me and to
disinterested listeners in the house (yes, I took it home and tried it in
my
house). Neither was louder than the other.

Ignoring, for the moment, that a 1970's Kenwood amplifier is NOT a modern
amplifier, you might have a point. Bass performance is often a product of
amplifier/speaker interaction. Such things as amp output impedance, and
power
supply design can affect how low frequencies are coupled to the speakers.
But, OTOH, if you didn't perform a blind A-B test between the old Kenwood
and
the new ML where both were matched in volume to less than +/- 1dB using
instruments, you are still dealing with sighted "expectation" results.

2. I have never been able to hear a difference with speaker wires or
power
cords unless they are way undersized for the job, however the
interconnect
from the preamp to the power amp can make a huge difference. This should
be
obvious to all - after all the cable has impedance and that will affect
the
sound.

That's just the point. NO it doesn't. There are no characteristics of any
conductor that could have the slightest effect on any signal from DC to 50
KHz or higher. No cable can produce enough capacitive or inductive
reactance
at those frequencies to impact any characteristic of the audio signal
being
carried.

If you cannot hear it, then so be it - I did extensive testing with
cables I made, cables on loan from the stereo store, and anything else I
could find. Quality, by which I mean sound that I prefered, did not
correlate with price, though cheaper cables tended to sound worse, but it
did vary dramatically as I changed the wire type and the way I used the
various conductors in a multi-conductor cable. This effect was
significant
enough that my daughter walking through the room remarked "you must have
changed the cables again, I don't like these new ones" - that's about as
close to a double blind test as you will come in a home setting. The
worst
home made cables were made from twinax, the best were from dual TSP that
was
rated for overhead use. All cables were balanced (XLR). The best
professional ones were Cardas (middle of the line) and Hovland. I bought
from Hovland because they are local, friends, and the two were pretty
much a
dead heat as far as sound is concerned.

Sorry, its simply impossible.


more snip


so, I will respond one last time, for the benefits of others.

1. "it is impossible" is simply a false statement, in fact any such
statement is almost always false. typically the output drivers of a preamp
are designed to drive 600 ohms or above impedance.

And most inputs are 10,000 ohms and higher.

The effect of a few
hundred pf and a few nH are easily measured - perhaps you should do the
calculations.

Three years a cable engineer at Lockheed Missile and Space Co.'s "cable lab"
when I first got out of college had me working on every kinnd of cable and
signal imaginable. I HAVE done the math. At 20 or even 50 KHz, the capacitive
or and/or inductive reactance of any cable that you can name is negligable
and will have ZERO effect on any audio frequencies.

particularly do the calculations for a transmision line of 10
meters using characteristic impedance data for RG58u to pick a particular
cable that is well known, driving a 10K resistor at the distal end and being
driven by a source with a 600 ohm impedance.

10 meters is more than 30 feet. What has that to do with the 0.5 and 1 meter
interconnects that the vast majority of people use between components?

Drive it with a 400 hz square
wave (to use a signal that is easily simulated) and look at the resultant
FFT . Look also at a frequency versus phase plot (aka Bode plot).

Sure, with a 10 meter cable you will notice a little integration of the
waveform caused by low pass effects of the cable at very high frequencies,
but you won't hear it.

2. I am very sorry to point out to you that whatver assertions you choose to
make do not change the laws of physics.

Except that whatever laws of physics that you are invoking here have nothing
to do with audio frequencies in a stereo system.

Maxwells equations have been well
understood since the turn of the century.

And before that. Perhaps if we were talking about RF.....

The characteristic impedance of
preamp outpus and power amp inputs is relatively high, this is why cables
affect sound. The characteristic impedance of speakers and power amps is
very low, this is why it is nearly impossible for cables to affect sound.

None of this has any effect at audio frequencies. As you said yourself, do
the math. Use 1 meter as the length and get some cable specs for capacitance
and inductance as well as DC resistance from whomsoever cable manufacture you
wish, then come back and tell me how fractions of an ohm of impedance
increase at ultra-high frequencies (say 50 KHz) is going to have ANY effect
of signals from DC to 20 KHz?

3. perhaps you have heard of tone controls? Some inexpensive stereos have
them. Some folks add graphic equalizers also. Cables have a similar but
generally more subtle effect. Also, in my experience, certain cables can
"muddy" the sound dramatically, even in very short lengths. I did not
conduct analytic tests to determine why it is so, however, lack of analytic
test data, or your assertions to the contrary do not make the effect
impossible or negate its existance.

Mythology. At audio frequencies, wire is wire. If cable manufacturers were
operating on the premise that you suggest, they would using their lower
impedance specs as marketing tools: " Try the new Nordost Valhalla
interconnects. They have lower impedance at 50 KHz than do any of our
competition. This is superiority that you can MEASURE." But they don't
because they know that this is the type of nonsense that is so transparent as
to destroy any credibility that they might still have (and that's very
little).

[[email protected]]

On Sep 7, 8:44*am, "William Noble" wrote:
Sorry, its simply impossible.
1. "it is impossible" is simply a false statement, in fact any such
statement is almost always false.

So 100 years of physics is all wrong!! That silly silly Einstein.

Actually certain things are known to be impossible in our universe to
a very high degree of certainty. No massive object can reach the
speed of light relative to any other massive object. Proven fact,
whether you like it or not. Nor can any machine generate more energy
than it consumes.

I don't think you will, standing nude and by the expedient of flapping
your arms with great vigour, rise into the air anytime soon, myself.
But if that's not impossible feel free to fly over and knock on my
door for a demonstration tomorrow around noon!

Actually I think that a little straightforward philisophical
consideration will show that, unless some things are impossible, what
actually is possible could not exist. Buy even if I'm wrong about
that, facts are facts and certain things are just impossible, and you
can deny it forever if you wish, but you will be just as wrong every
time that you do.

Ed Seedhouse